A Christian was kind enough to point out to me...

Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
A Christian was kind enough to point out to me...

I don't ask for much in life, but would the true Christians please step up to the plate and tie a millstone around all of the members of RRS, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and anyone else leading people to reality, and throw us in the ocean?!

"But if anyone causes another one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose faith, it would be better for that person to be thrown out into the ocean with a large millstone tied around the neck." Mark 9:42 NLT

Jesus says, "There will always be temptations to sin, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting. It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around than neck than to face the punishment in store for harming one of these little ones." Luke 17:1-2 NLT

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13597
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Sapient wrote: I don't ask

Sapient wrote:
I don't ask for much in life, but would the true Christians please step up to the plate and tie a millstone around all of the members of RRS, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and anyone else leading people to reality, and throw us in the ocean?! "But if anyone causes another one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose faith, it would be better for that person to be thrown out into the ocean with a large millstone tied around the neck." Mark 9:42 NLT Jesus says, "There will always be temptations to sin, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting. It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around than neck than to face the punishment in store for harming one of these little ones." Luke 17:1-2 NLT

Nice loving Christians. Is this an e-mail someone sent you?

Humn, sounds like the same genocidal crap Bin Ladin spews about non Muslims. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote: Nice loving

Brian37 wrote:

Nice loving Christians. Is this an e-mail someone sent you?

 Yes, and the irony was that he interprets the passage to mean that I need to tie the millstone around the neck myself.  Notice it doesn't say that anywhere in the passage, but he held firm on it even when I pointed out his misinterpretation.  Christians are becoming even more typical by the hour.  Everyday I start to gain more and more respect for the Fred Phelps clan, the closest thing we have to true Christians.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Sapient wrote: Brian37

Sapient wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

Nice loving Christians. Is this an e-mail someone sent you?

Yes, and the irony was that he interprets the passage to mean that I need to tie the millstone around the neck myself. Notice it doesn't say that anywhere in the passage, but he held firm on it even when I pointed out his misinterpretation. Christians are becoming even more typical by the hour. Everyday I start to gain more and more respect for the Fred Phelps clan, the closest thing we have to true Christians.

I half way agree with you about Phelps & Co. They do take the bible & their beliefs seriously, and aren't afraid to act on them. But then the bible says one thing and then says the other. Christians are basically taught to hate and love at the same time.

Where I would disagree with you, Sapient, is that the behavior Phelps & Co. in many places is the opposite of how Jesus is portrayed as behaving in the bible. So, to me, they're not "true Christians" because they ignore the teaching & actions of Christ.

But then, I think a lot of Christians tend to ignore Jesus' teachings, and go more with Paul's.


seekingfacts
Posts: 24
Joined: 2007-02-06
User is offlineOffline
 don't ask for much in

 don't ask for much in life, but would the true Christians please step up to the plate and tie a millstone around all of the members of RRS, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and anyone else leading people to reality, and throw us in the ocean?!

"But if anyone causes another one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose faith, it would be better for that person to be thrown out into the ocean with a large millstone tied around the neck." Mark 9:42 NLT

Jesus says, "There will always be temptations to sin, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting. It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around than neck than to face the punishment in store for harming one of these little ones." Luke 17:1-2 NLT

 Actually its talking about how God will react. so its not up to "real Christians"(as few and far between as they are) to do anything. basically its better for that person to do that with the millstone then to face Gods judgment towards them.

J D


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13597
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
seekingfacts wrote: don't

seekingfacts wrote:
don't ask for much in life, but would the true Christians please step up to the plate and tie a millstone around all of the members of RRS, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and anyone else leading people to reality, and throw us in the ocean?!

"But if anyone causes another one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose faith, it would be better for that person to be thrown out into the ocean with a large millstone tied around the neck." Mark 9:42 NLT

Jesus says, "There will always be temptations to sin, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting. It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around than neck than to face the punishment in store for harming one of these little ones." Luke 17:1-2 NLT

Actually its talking about how God will react. so its not up to "real Christians"(as few and far between as they are) to do anything. basically its better for that person to do that with the millstone then to face Gods judgment towards them.

NICE DODGE!

Wow, if I were playing dodgeball I'd pick you for my team.

Of course it doesnt mean what someone else interprets it because that might put daddy in a bad light.

"How God will react"?

So you think it is mature for dad to drowned his children when they missbehaive or dissagree? 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


seekingfacts
Posts: 24
Joined: 2007-02-06
User is offlineOffline
"So you think it is mature

"So you think it is mature for dad to drowned his children when they misbehave or disagree?" not sure how this has anything to do with my comment but ill address it anyway.  well they were told what would happen if they did and they chose to do it anyway it would be unfair and wrong to not give them what they chose right???

 

J D


razorphreak
Theist
razorphreak's picture
Posts: 901
Joined: 2007-02-05
User is offlineOffline
I think a lot of Christians

I think a lot of Christians take what various churches teach them and not to mention the ever foolish Pat Roberts to heart without reading what the bible ACTUALLY says.

To you guys from RRS, whenever any so called Christian tells you to go tie a rock around your neck and go drown yourself or you are going to hell or whatever else, remind them of this passage:

Matthew 7: 1-5 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

then....(really the whole chapter 12 of Romans but these are the important points)

Romans 12:3, 17-21 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you...Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

This chapter always reminds me how sad it is that any Christian would reject any person from respect as a human being; gay, straight, theist or not...Paul's teachings take Jesus' words and amplify them, not replace.  Your lifestyle is not mine but that does not make me and you unequal in any way.

 

 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
razorphreak wrote: I think

razorphreak wrote:

I think a lot of Christians take what various churches teach them and not to mention the ever foolish Pat Roberts to heart without reading what the bible ACTUALLY says.


That's what we've been saying all along Eye-wink.

razorphreak wrote:

To you guys from RRS, whenever any so called Christian tells you to go tie a rock around your neck and go drown yourself or you are going to hell or whatever else, remind them of this passage:

Matthew 7: 1-5 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.


This is just my interpretation, but I think this passage basically is saying "Don't be a hypocrite.", not "Never judge anyone." The key part is "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged," The idea is, when God judges you at the end of time all God needs to do is judge by your own standards. So if Phelps goes around bashing gays, while he himself is gay, then God would judge Phelps by this standard.

Notice though the passage says "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." So Phelps, if he truly had the plank out of his own eye, could do what he does without violating this passage.

razorphreak wrote:

then....(really the whole chapter 12 of Romans but these are the important points)

Romans 12:3, 17-21 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you...Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

This chapter always reminds me how sad it is that any Christian would reject any person from respect as a human being; gay, straight, theist or not...Paul's teachings take Jesus' words and amplify them, not replace.

This is one of the more enlightened parts of the New Testament. I pretty much agree with you here.

razorphreak wrote:
Your lifestyle is not mine but that does not make me and you unequal in any way.

 

 

Atheism is not a lifestyle. If no one ever talked to me about religious beliefs, they'd probably never know I was an atheist.


razorphreak
Theist
razorphreak's picture
Posts: 901
Joined: 2007-02-05
User is offlineOffline
MrRage wrote:

MrRage wrote:
This is just my interpretation, but I think this passage basically is saying "Don't be a hypocrite.", not "Never judge anyone." The key part is "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged," The idea is, when God judges you at the end of time all God needs to do is judge by your own standards. So if Phelps goes around bashing gays, while he himself is gay, then God would judge Phelps by this standard. Notice though the passage says "first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." So Phelps, if he truly had the plank out of his own eye, could do what he does without violating this passage.

Yea you got it. We are never going to not judge someone but the idea is first to try not to but when you do, don't contradict yourself.

MrRage wrote:
This is one of the more enlightened parts of the New Testament. I pretty much agree with you here.

Interesting you'd say that when I'd say most of the new testament is like this...

MrRage wrote:
Atheism is not a lifestyle. If no one ever talked to me about religious beliefs, they'd probably never know I was an atheist.

What you "believe" is part of what makes you...you. Because it is part of you it leads you in whatever direction basically composing up what your lifestyle is. For me, being a Christian is part of who I am and it is how I live my life...or at least try to. Thing is, I accept you no matter your lifestyle which is to say all details about who you are. In the fullness of being a Christian, that is a HUGE part of understanding (after how you give your life for God) how you live with one another. Letters like that, that talk about basically wishing evil on a person or a group of people that no one knows, is evil itself (applying it to a Christian mindset). I am reminded of the boycott that some Christian group did against Ford because Ford gave to the victims of gay hate crimes. Easy example of hypricates....

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


Rob Long (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
An Example Life

The point of these verses is to remind readers of the New Testament that we have a responsibility to the people around us.  As illustrated above, people like to judge groups of people by the actions of a few.  Each Christian is responsible to all other believers, and to non-believers who we hope to reach, to live their lives in such a way as to be an example to others.

Please understand I believe the example is in how we succeed and how we recover from failure.  Everyone fails, but how do we deal with it. 

One of my pet peeves is the tendency of people to play the "get out of jail free card" at any chance given.  I honestly believe we will still be judged after this life, but that we will be spared a sentence in Hell or utter destruction.  We are still culpable and should live accordingly. 

Jesus lived for 33 years as a human being.  That is historically unquestioned.  The question arises as to his relationship to the Creator and his Deity.  These are matters of personal faith, and faith is a decision. However, much like Ghandi, he lived a life of simple means and spread love and a measure of faith where he went.  He did have a spate of wrath, as he was upset at seeing a place of worship used as a place of commerce and worse.  However, he lived an example life.  Christians and non-believers can agree to that point at least.

The now cliche question, What Would Jesus Do, is still applicable though.  When an adultress was brought before him, he did not allow her to be killed, even though he was unhappy with her choices.  I don't think that he would have treated a homosexual any different that he did that lady. 

The question is one of Love to others, and Jesus is not the only example to have walked the earth, but for us who believe, he is THE best example of it, and he begs forgiveness to his father on our behalf.

-Rob

 

 


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Rob Long wrote:Jesus lived

Rob Long wrote:

Jesus lived for 33 years as a human being.  That is historically unquestioned. 

*cough cough* 

/good deed for the day: I let the comment through

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Loc
Superfan
Loc's picture
Posts: 1130
Joined: 2007-11-06
User is offlineOffline
Rob Long wrote:One of my pet

Rob Long wrote:

One of my pet peeves is the tendency of people to play the "get out of jail free card" at any chance given.  I honestly believe we will still be judged after this life, but that we will be spared a sentence in Hell or utter destruction.  We are still culpable and should live accordingly. 

That's nice.Can you show where in the bible it says that, or is just something you say to make god seem nicer?

Rob Long wrote:
Jesus lived for 33 years as a human being.  That is historically unquestioned.

I just questioned it.Oh noes!

Rob Long wrote:
The question arises as to his relationship to the Creator and his Deity.  These are matters of personal faith, and faith is a decision. However, much like Ghandi, he lived a life of simple means and spread love and a measure of faith where he went.  He did have a spate of wrath, as he was upset at seeing a place of worship used as a place of commerce and worse.  However, he lived an example life.  Christians and non-believers can agree to that point at least.

I disagree.If your jesus existed,he wasn't a model for good living.

Matthew 10:34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Oh hay, jesus doesn't condemn slavery.That silly Emancipation Proclamation!

Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Great future planning advice there

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

Don't save money? Good luck sending the kids to college

Matthew 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Real mature jesus

Rob Long wrote:
The now cliche question, What Would Jesus Do, is still applicable though.  When an adultress was brought before him, he did not allow her to be killed, even though he was unhappy with her choices.  I don't think that he would have treated a homosexual any different that he did that lady.

And he's the only person in history who would have done something good and should therefore be worshipped?

I Timothy 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

I Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

I note homosexuals still aren't going to heaven.

Rob Long wrote:
The question is one of Love to others, and Jesus is not the only example to have walked the earth, but for us who believe, he is THE best example of it, and he begs forgiveness to his father on our behalf.

Look harder?

 

 

 


 

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


WillieBop
Theist
Posts: 61
Joined: 2007-03-19
User is offlineOffline
A Christian really??

Sapient wrote:
I don't ask for much in life, but would the true Christians please step up to the plate and tie a millstone around all of the members of RRS, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and anyone else leading people to reality, and throw us in the ocean?!

So a Christian sent you this did they?? Let's look at this "Christian" shall we. So your "Christian" claims that "RRS, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris" lead people to reality. Thus your "Christians believes atheism is true. So it's an atheist Christian. uhuh.  And then our "Christian" claims to be one of "us" meaning atheists.   So um.. yeah..Then  directly asked if you got this from a Christian you claim you did. 

 

Clearly this is from you or another RRS atheist.   What conclusions can we reach? Either you are dishonest or you are a complete moron incapable of interpreting simple english, perhaps some bizarre combination of both.  I mean you are an atheist so either is a strong possibility.

Man I love reading this message board.  You all are the best entertainment a Christian can find.

 

 

"But if anyone causes another one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose faith, it would be better for that person to be thrown out into the ocean with a large millstone tied around the neck." Mark 9:42 NLT Jesus says, "There will always be temptations to sin, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting. It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around than neck than to face the punishment in store for harming one of these little ones." Luke 17:1-2 NLT


Loc
Superfan
Loc's picture
Posts: 1130
Joined: 2007-11-06
User is offlineOffline
I don't see anywhere were he

I don't see anywhere were he said those were the christians words. I interperted it to mean the christian sent him the verse, the other dialougue was Brian's words. It's called sarcasm. He is asking christians to fulfill their word based on the sent scripture.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
seekingfacts wrote:"So you

seekingfacts wrote:
"So you think it is mature for dad to drowned his children when they misbehave or disagree?" not sure how this has anything to do with my comment but ill address it anyway. well they were told what would happen if they did and they chose to do it anyway it would be unfair and wrong to not give them what they chose right???

 

And he knew they would choose wrong because he designed them that way.  Score one for the insane unloving megalomaniac!

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
WillieBop wrote:Sapient

WillieBop wrote:

Sapient wrote:
I don't ask for much in life, but would the true Christians please step up to the plate and tie a millstone around all of the members of RRS, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and anyone else leading people to reality, and throw us in the ocean?!

So a Christian sent you this did they?? Let's look at this "Christian" shall we. So your "Christian" claims that "RRS, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris" lead people to reality. Thus your "Christians believes atheism is true. So it's an atheist Christian. uhuh.  And then our "Christian" claims to be one of "us" meaning atheists.   So um.. yeah..Then  directly asked if you got this from a Christian you claim you did.

 

No that was the part I interjected before I posted what the Christian said.  This is their actual email...

----- Original Message -----

From: victor powell  (revvicpowell@yahoo.com)

 To: waronchristmas@hotmail.com

Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 5:37 PM

 Subject: a couple more Scriptures to think about

 

Hello.  I recently saw your coverage on the FOX News show.  You have definitely made a lot of headlines recently.  I was surprised that the gentleman on the program Heartland mentioned that he believed he was going to go to hell.  I am curious how an atheist is allowed to believe in hell--which by definition is a place of punishment for those who reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?

 

I have a scripture to add to the one you have based you challenge off of.  You quote Mark 3:29 and the verse appears two more times in the synoptic Gospels.  However, later in the book of Mark Jesus says, "But if anyone causes another one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose faith, it would be better for that person to be thrown out into the ocean with a large millstone tied around the neck." Mark 9:42 NLT

  

Also, Luke 17 probably words it a little bit better:  Again Jesus says, "There will always be temptations to sin, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting.  It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around than neck than to face the punishment in store for harming one of these little ones."  Luke 17:1-2 NLT  Little ones refers to "children" but also is "believers" look at how John uses the term in 1 John 2 and in 2 John.  The "Chosen Lady" is the church and again he addresses fellow Christian believers as "children" or children of God which is why Christians sometimes refer to one another as brother and sister.

  

I am curious as to how the self-proclaimed Atheists at Blasphemy Challenge will respond to this email.  You can ignoe this email, blow it off, send me a nasty note or you can enter into a mature dialogue with a person who holds a different worldview than your own, and perhaps we can learn from one another.  I am very interested in a dialogue with you because I find your stance and world view interesting.

  

Please take the time to respond--or to borrow one of the phrases I found on your website "Are you Chicken?"

  

Respectfully,

Vic Powell

Emporia, KS

 

 

MY RESPONSE:

 

waronchristmas@hotmail.com wrote:
I'm sorry, what do you want a response to?  The scripture you sent is great, I might use it to show that Christians aren't following Jesus as they haven't tied a millstone around our necks and thrown us into the sea yet.  Certainly we've caused many to lose faith. 

HIS RESPONSE:

----- Original Message ----- From: victor powell To: waronchristmas@hotmail.com Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:04 PM Subject: Re: a couple more Scriptures to think about    You restated my point exactly.  That is the whole point of teaching with hyberbole.  We are actually in agreement on the point of this Scriputre.  There is no reinterpretation necessary--Jesus was very clear and straight forward about what and who he was talking about concerning the millstone.  It was hyberbole--we still use these techniques to teach and make our points today.  Your statement makes no sense to me, and appears to be a non sequitur response, please explain your comment concerning "reinterpretation" and "rationalization" when I clearly state and we seem to agree this Scripture is hyberbolic.   You wrote: Your reinterpretation is an interesting rationalization.   Who appeared on FOX News Saturday night on Heartland with John Kasik?  Was he from your organization?  He represented your org. and he clearly stated he believed in hell on that program. 

MY RESPONSE:

You said: Actually, the Scripture implies that the person who leads another astray should tie the millstone around their neck and toss themselves in the ocean rather than face the wrath of God on judgement day.    That is NOT what the scripture says.    Brian Flemming on Fox news on Sunday does not believe in hell, we're mocking you (and you bought it).

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


OBSCENITEASE
OBSCENITEASE's picture
Posts: 17
Joined: 2008-06-16
User is offlineOffline
razorphreak wrote:I think a

razorphreak wrote:

I think a lot of Christians take what various churches teach them and not to mention the ever foolish Pat Roberts to heart without reading what the bible ACTUALLY says.

To you guys from RRS, whenever any so called Christian tells you to go tie a rock around your neck and go drown yourself or you are going to hell or whatever else, remind them of this passage:

 

....AND HERE WE GO AGAIN... It's nauseating actually, if not just simply exhausting. 'But don't forget THIS passage' (you know the one that contradicts it if you read them BOTH literally?)

I learned early on as I began to question certain 'apparent' contradictions the reason for so many perspectives and interpretation.  Interpretation is simply the filter that we ALL put on things.  For example... we have one camp that states that we're to take VS. #1 to be 'literal' and VS. #2 to be 'spiritual', while the other Xian camp says to take VS #2 'literally' and VS. #1 to be 'spiritual'... This is just an example (and maybe not very well written), but the point is that the bible IS NOT UNANAMOUSLY OBVIOUS... so what can a Christian do but simply begin to trust 'the Lord's leading' as they muddle through to reconcile all the confusion and contradictions. 

SO WHO IS RIGHT??????????

Whoever it is that is giving the explanation!

 

 


Cadalyst
Theist
Posts: 29
Joined: 2008-07-03
User is offlineOffline
Boy you atheist are a trip.

Boy you atheist are a trip. First of all the passage is similiar to the one "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out etc..." does that mean we Christians are going to gouge our eyes out? No!

Jesus is merely saying, if you only knew the fate in store for you you would consider the loss of your eye way more than an even trade, which was to strike fear in us about the seriousness of sin and hell 

That passage is not really meant for you, it is meant moreso for us Christians primariliy pastors or people who take on  the responsibility of preaching the gospel who teach false doctrine even by our actions and lead many people away from Christ.

You see from a biblical standpoint Pastors, priests, Bishops, Popes, Ministers, etc.... who teach their own interpretation of the Gospel and lead people including so called christians away from the truth will suffer punishment far worse than any non believing atheist would receive in hell


HisWillness
atheistRational VIP!
HisWillness's picture
Posts: 4100
Joined: 2008-02-21
User is offlineOffline
Cadalyst wrote:Boy you

Cadalyst wrote:
Boy you atheist are a trip. First of all the passage is similiar to the one "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out etc..." does that mean we Christians are going to gouge our eyes out? No!

Of course not! You realize that what you're reading is inapplicable to life. Also, that God said it. See the problem at all?

Cadalyst wrote:
Jesus is merely saying, if you only knew the fate in store for you you would consider the loss of your eye way more than an even trade, which was to strike fear in us about the seriousness of sin and hell

Did  Jesus tell you that? Because I'm sure there are lots of people who must interpret that passage wrongly. Funny thing about interpretation.

Cadalyst wrote:
You see from a biblical standpoint Pastors, priests, Bishops, Popes, Ministers, etc.... who teach their own interpretation of the Gospel and lead people including so called christians away from the truth will suffer punishment far worse than any non believing atheist would receive in hell

Oh really? Where'd you read that?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


Renee Obsidianwords
High Level DonorModeratorRRS local affiliateSilver Member
Renee Obsidianwords's picture
Posts: 1388
Joined: 2007-03-29
User is offlineOffline
Cadalyst wrote:You see from

Cadalyst wrote:

You see from a biblical standpoint Pastors, priests, Bishops, Popes, Ministers, etc.... who teach their own interpretation of the Gospel and lead people including so called christians away from the truth will suffer punishment far worse than any non believing atheist would receive in hell

SO that is why so many pastors, priests, bishops, popes, ministers, etc try so hard to convey the message. Their way in their eyes is the way to interpret and convey. Wow, so how do they know who is right? A pope may have a different message then a pastor, right? My heart aches for the cloud of fear these men of god walk under every day , worrying about the message: "is the message true, is it pure, is it right in gods eyes"

Slowly building a blog at ~

http://obsidianwords.wordpress.com/


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Isn't that what you are doing yourself.

Cadalyst wrote:

Jesus is merely saying, if you only knew the fate in store for you you would consider the loss of your eye way more than an even trade, which was to strike fear in us about the seriousness of sin and hell 

That passage is not really meant for you, it is meant moreso for us Christians primariliy pastors or people who take on  the responsibility of preaching the gospel who teach false doctrine even by our actions and lead many people away from Christ

It would seem that you too are guilty of this sin since you are interpreting the Gospels.

Cadalyst wrote:

You see from a biblical standpoint Pastors, priests, Bishops, Popes, Ministers, etc.... who teach their own interpretation of the Gospel and lead people including so called christians away from the truth will suffer punishment far worse than any non believing atheist would receive in hell

 I imagine you are using 2 Peter 2:1 or 2 Corinthians 11:13-16 for your basis for this statement. Which doesn't exactly say Popes, bishops, pastors etc will burn more in hell than the non-believers. It seems Revelation indicates all non-believers and those not in the Book will be tossed into the pit of fire to be destroyed. Levels of torture seem to end with erradication for all evil doers.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


JustAnotherBeliever
TheistBronze Member
Posts: 199
Joined: 2008-06-14
User is offlineOffline
I've been thinking about this

I've been thinking about this for a few days. I am beginning to appreciate the RRS more and more even though I am a believer. I have plenty of unnecessary irrational beliefs I can get rid of. It doesnt hurt to challenge them. I think this is different from a cult leading a person away from the truth. By definition, science can only lead a person toward the truth so christians really cant accuse RRS of being false teachers like in those scriptures. 

The other thing I have been thinking is that its hard to know what you actually believe. Just because we think things doesnt mean we believe them. I would venture to say that all of us could use some testing so that we can figure out what we actually believe. 


KathieG
KathieG's picture
Posts: 106
Joined: 2008-06-12
User is offlineOffline
Cadalyst wrote:Boy you

Cadalyst wrote:

Boy you atheist are a trip. First of all the passage is similiar to the one "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out etc..." does that mean we Christians are going to gouge our eyes out? No!

Jesus is merely saying, if you only knew the fate in store for you you would consider the loss of your eye way more than an even trade, which was to strike fear in us about the seriousness of sin and hell 

That passage is not really meant for you, it is meant moreso for us Christians primariliy pastors or people who take on  the responsibility of preaching the gospel who teach false doctrine even by our actions and lead many people away from Christ.

You see from a biblical standpoint Pastors, priests, Bishops, Popes, Ministers, etc.... who teach their own interpretation of the Gospel and lead people including so called christians away from the truth will suffer punishment far worse than any non believing atheist would receive in hell

 Ah, ya gotta love christian bible interpretation...if the passage sounds nice, it's to be taken literally, if it sounds bad, it's to be taken metaphorically...that is unless someone really wants to do something bad to someone, then they will take a passage literally as an attempt to justify their actions. Eye for an eye anyone?


lpetrich
lpetrich's picture
Posts: 148
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
KathieG wrote: Ah, ya gotta

KathieG wrote:
 Ah, ya gotta love christian bible interpretation...if the passage sounds nice, it's to be taken literally, if it sounds bad, it's to be taken metaphorically...that is unless someone really wants to do something bad to someone, then they will take a passage literally as an attempt to justify their actions. Eye for an eye anyone?

Excellent point; a lot of their Bible interpretation is variations of

  1. If I like it, it's literal; if I don't like it, it's metaphorical or allegorical.
  2. If I like it, its context is irrelevant; if I don't like it, it's out of context.
  3. If I like it, it's straightforward language; if I don't like it, it's rhetoric or hyperbole.
  4. If I like it, it was translated correctly; if I don't like it, it was mistranslated.
  5. If I like it, it's a moral absolute; if I don't like it, it's legalism.
  6. If I like it, it's a moral law; if I don't like it, it's a ceremonial law.
  7. If I like it, that law applies to everybody; if I don't like it, that law applies only to the original audience.

 


K9sByte
Posts: 51
Joined: 2006-11-18
User is offlineOffline
JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

I've been thinking about this for a few days. I am beginning to appreciate the RRS more and more even though I am a believer. I have plenty of unnecessary irrational beliefs I can get rid of. It doesnt hurt to challenge them. I think this is different from a cult leading a person away from the truth. By definition, science can only lead a person toward the truth so christians really cant accuse RRS of being false teachers like in those scriptures. 

The other thing I have been thinking is that its hard to know what you actually believe. Just because we think things doesnt mean we believe them. I would venture to say that all of us could use some testing so that we can figure out what we actually believe. 

Sorry for jumping in here out of nowhere, but I just have to say, I really liked your honesty.  Thank you.


Loc
Superfan
Loc's picture
Posts: 1130
Joined: 2007-11-06
User is offlineOffline
lpetrich wrote: If I like

lpetrich wrote:

  • If I like it, that law applies to everybody; if I don't like it, that law applies only to the original audience.
  •  

    That's a classic. I think the best example is that (I think) Timothy verse, that women can't speak in church or have their heads uncovered. Of course, a christian will tell you in an instant that only applies to the culture at the time, etc etc. Point is, be that as it might, nowhere does it say that in the surronding verses. It's ''women can't speak in church'', not ''Greek women in the first century can't speak in church, but if you're reading this in the 21st century no worries.''

    Since the bible doesn't say anywhere where or how this verse applies, I don't know why christians get uppity when you bring it up like it's a widely known fact it doesn't apply. Can you show me where in the bible that verse was negated?

    Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

    dudeofthemoment wrote:
    This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

    Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


    Brian37
    atheistSuperfan
    Brian37's picture
    Posts: 13597
    Joined: 2006-02-14
    User is offlineOffline
    Cadalyst wrote:Boy you

    Cadalyst wrote:

    Boy you atheist are a trip. First of all the passage is similiar to the one "If your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out etc..." does that mean we Christians are going to gouge our eyes out? No!

    Jesus is merely saying, if you only knew the fate in store for you you would consider the loss of your eye way more than an even trade, which was to strike fear in us about the seriousness of sin and hell 

    That passage is not really meant for you, it is meant moreso for us Christians primariliy pastors or people who take on  the responsibility of preaching the gospel who teach false doctrine even by our actions and lead many people away from Christ.

    You see from a biblical standpoint Pastors, priests, Bishops, Popes, Ministers, etc.... who teach their own interpretation of the Gospel and lead people including so called christians away from the truth will suffer punishment far worse than any non believing atheist would receive in hell

    When called on an absurdity the theist cops out to the old metaphor excuse. Cultural attitudes are what cause you to interpret this passage this way, because to take it litteraly would be barbaric. BUT, if you think prior cultures were not more litteral, as some are still today, you are out of your mind.

    It is called cherry picking. Just like some magical claims of the bible some Christians dismiss while others defend as real.

    Why does it take a bible to consider the effect of your actions. The story of the tortus and hair, the ant and the grasshopper, and stories like Star Wars convey moral axioms but you dont find them to be real, just stories.

    "Consider what you do before you do it". DUH, so why do you need a bearded man in the sky to state the obvious to you?

    "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
    Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


    I AM GOD AS YOU
    Superfan
    Posts: 4793
    Joined: 2007-09-29
    User is offlineOffline
    Cadalyst / Brian37 ......

    Cadalyst / Brian37   ......   LOL ,  .... all rrs 

      .... resurrecting "Jesus" atheism theism ....

      Communication Breakdown -    .... evolution

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiL1sjGIcew