Canada speaks up, Moore is right about Sicko... Canada Healthcare Better
Offline Have you seen Michael Moores new movie SICKO? It's been the topic of conversation in our chat room this week. Kelly, Rook, and Sapient agree that our health care should be overhauled and that we should socialize more of it than we already do. Please visit us in the chatroom to discuss the issue. We recorded over 4 hours of material with Jake, and other assorted call in guests on the issue of universal health care for all Americans. The material will be available to subscribers in a newly created private forum for them soon. For those that dissent from the Michael Moore perspective in Sicko, take solace in the fact that our co-host "Yellow#5" (Mike) disagrees with us for the most part. We had a quite lively discussion and for the next week we will be focusing on issues related to Sicko.
Please visit www. MichaelMoore.com to get acquainted with the topic. Anyone who wants to speak about this issue at all is welcome to come on our stickam show at almost any point. Just come into our stickam room when you see us in there, and we'll entertain the idea. We can record the material so that your views are heard. Do you have personal health care stories that you would like to share? Come on our show to tell us about them. Visit us in the stickam room to make it happen (we'll call you, we don't list our number): http://www.rationalresponders.com/rrs_webcam_room
The first objection I tend to hear is that Canadians have longer wait times or some variant of this when trying to defend for profit health care. Read a few of the views from Canadians that are appalled at that notion.
Here is my favorite:
Your Own Worst Enemy
From: cassandra
Date: Sunday, July 15, 2007 11:50 PM
To: mmflint@aol.com
Subject: Canadian living in the US, the health care truth
Hey,
I just watched (with tears rolling down my face) your film, "Sicko." I am a Canadian citizen living in Los Angeles. I am without healthcare. I am only 25, yet fear that something will happen to me that won't allow me to fly back to Canada to receive the treatment for it. It's quite sad. I have a job here, do quite well, have 2 university degrees...and yet can't go to the doctor when I feel ill. I also work in the fashion industry...an industry that doesn't offer a lot of careers In my home town of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. This is the US...and yet I cannot have both, a career I love and healthcare. I can go back to Canada, rethink my entire career and work in a profession I have zero passion for, but yet know that If I break a leg or need stitches...I won't have to file for bankruptcy. Why are educated adults living in an industrialized nation having to make such decisions????
I would also like to testify that the picture the US media paints of Canada’s universal healthcare system is completely false. It already saddens me Daily, the level of stupidity and lack of global awareness people have here in the states. Why learn about other cultures when we are indoctrinated to believe this is the god damn best country in the world? Who needs a passport? Who needs to educate themselves on the wondrous joys of other countries when the government leads us to believe, god damn it, this is the best f*%*$% place to be. You can drive a Lexus and not have a high school diploma, just make sure you use condoms though, because that newborn will set you back a year salary and forget about spending time with that expensive little treat because you have to go back to work, now!
After watching your movie, I am thinking I need to give up the snow free winters and get my ass back to Canada. My parents are living it up during their retirement. They are extremely well off people, do they complain about the health care...do they get all flustered thinking, damn I could just pay my way into not having to wait for operation X or check up Y? NO! Canadian health care is amazing. My dad had a massive heart attack 2 years ago, fire trucks, ambulance, doctors were there within 5 minutes, he was checked into the hospital, they blasted out the clog, and he was home within the week and all that came out of their pocket was the money spent on coffee and snacks from the vending machines in the hospital. The hospital had no idea of my parents financial standing in life and yet his treatment was just the same as the regular Joe Schmoo who works as a janitor.
It wasn't until I moved to the states that I realized how messed up this country is. It is all backwards. The complacency of citizens to just believe every last thing that is fed to them...via CNN, US weekly, down to every last government official...it's sick and it will be the absolute demise of this nation. People in power have their bank accounts’ best interest at hand, have the well being of their party at a higher priority...they don't give a shit about what's best for the average person...Americans should get their passport, spend less money on their local church or political candidate, get out there, visit other countries , check your ego at the door and realize America IS NOT the best country in the world and if the 300 million of you got up and made as much noise as Michael Moore...there might be some freaking change for the better here AND stop being so ignorant about paying more taxes...immediate rewards aren't as important as looking at the big picture...in the long run, pay more taxes, get more back...it isn't socialism...because the government SHOULD provide those things, what they shouldn't provide is the ability to BRAINWASH you into being your own worst enemy.
Cassandra
Atheist, Atheism, Agnostic, Rational Response Squad
My friend's military health insurance runs out soon and she needs a prescription filled. The problem is her doctor on the base won't see her to sign a form until after the insurance expires. With basically no money she has the choice of going further into debt or going insane because her medication helps her control her psychosis.
On the other hand if she lived in Canada it wouldn't be a problem. Here is America the option she has is for her husband to re-enroll in the military and get sent back to Iraq.
Lovely options. Our government has the money to kill people but not to help it's own people.
Right now we have socialized programs which work quite well. The Fire Department is great, medicare and medicaid provide health care to millions cheaper than private programs, social security gives it's checks consistently and has kept millions out of poverty, public schools give a basic education to millions.
Thank goodness for Michael Moore bringing this subject to the forefront after the corporate media has silenced the issue (if not promoted outright lies) for so long.
Is this the same Michael Moore who's past "documentaries" are filled with half-truths, obfuscation and outright lies?
What makes me curious is why people who claim to lean towards Libertarians politically would want a government-mandated cradle-to-grave medical plan. You do realize that this socialized medicine would not be free, but would instead be funded by your tax dollars? Are you really willing to pay 20% or more in income tax to the Federal Government for sub-standard care?
If you don't believe that a government-mandated medical system would be sub-standard care, take a look at how the Government already runs health care systems in its VA hospitals across the country. Personally, I don't want my medical needs dictated to me by some bureaucrat 2,000 miles away in Washington. There are already better alternatives, such as HSA accounts.
We don't need socialized medicine. What we really need is insurance and tort reform, which are the primary causes for increased medical costs.
The Saint
Clearly you haven't seen Moore's film. It amazes me so many people comment on something they haven't seen. Apparently an unnamed bureaucrat who approves medical care is worse than an unnamed bureaucrat working for an insurance company who denies medical care is worse. Then again, you didn't watch the film so I suggest you do so so your complaints can be addressed and you don't need to attack the messenger.
You might not need to increase taxes if you cut back on the hundreds of billions of dollars spent on arms.
"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven." -- former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien
Well, I may be able to offer some objectivity on the subject. My parents are MDs. I was going to follow in their footsteps but instead became a medical research scientist. I have lived in Canada (I am a Canadian citizen), and I tend to concur with my parents assessment-namely, that the american healthcare system is a tragedy and the Canadian one a comedy. Being that America has no universalized medicine, it is hopelessly expensive. Health insurance companies, drug companies, etc, are more interested in profit than patients anyway, and every year, people have to file bankruptcy or leave to get treatment. The private-only system of the US makes it unique in the civilized world.
On the other hand, the Canadian health care system is a cruel joke, the inefficiencies are astonishing. 12 weeks for an MRI, 20 for surgery...It's so pathetic, it isn't even funny
The reason I say this is because I live in Hong Kong, which has a mix of private and public medicine. I am pleased to report that the quality of the public system in Hong Kong is excellent. Everyone and anyone can get free healthcare, top-notch too. When I needed an MRI, I was able to book it in the public system and have it two days later. In Canada, I would probably have had to wait three months.
This may astonish the Americans reading, but Hong Kong has no taxes. None. And yet, they still have a top-notch public health care system. *Slaps forehead*
Why do Americans labor under the delusion that the introduction of universal healthcare into the equation necessarily need replace the private system, as opposed to standing alongside it, like here?
True virtue is life under the direction of reason
-Baruch de Spinoza
It is the mark of a reasoned man that he can without problem separate what he can deduce as true from that which he wishes to be true -Me
No, but I have seen his other films, which is what prompted my initial question. Despite what his films are billed as, Moore does not make documentaries--his films are Hollywood agitprop, and anyone who watches this film thinking its an accurate portrayal of the American medical system vs. the "miracle systems" of Socialism are naive, and easily duped. Likely Moore has relied upon the same hype and propaganda that the Clintons used in the '90s to try and push through their gargantuan universal health care proposal--no one was buying then, and no one is buying now.
Swapping one flawed system for another is not a rational solution--at the very least with the system in place now, I have a choice--I can choose my own doctor, insurance, and medical plan, or if need be, pay my medical expenses out-of-pocket. Under a Government-mandated universal system, I will have limited (if any) choice in doctors and medical plans, and I certainly would not be able to opt out of the system, but would be forced to pay exorbitant taxes to pay for lowest-common-denominator health care. No thanks.
I don't really need to suffer through Moore's self-serving diatribe in order to make an informed decision about the subject matter. Moore is not the first to propagandize the state of our medical system, and there's nothing new here outside the glossy Hollywood treatment his films typically receive. If Moore holds true to his modus operandi, no doubt he has scoured the country to find the worst case scenario in order to generalize the American medical system and insurance companies as co-conspirators to defraud the American people and deny them even the most basic medical care, while simultaneously painting an idealized picture of the socialized medical systems of Cuba, Canada, France, et al, while pulling out all the stops to force his captive audience to wonder why we here in America can't put together such a utopian system.
The problem is that it's all BS. Does Moore bother to show the avalanche of people who flock to this country from Canada and other countries to get the medical care their vaunted system denies them? Doubtful. As I understand it, Moore's movie makes a big deal out of the United States being ranked a lowly 37th in quality of care by the World Health Organization, yet conveniently ignores that Cuba ranks 39th, and the great Canadian system ranks only 30th. His claims about Cuban health care, according to Cubans who have experience with their own system, is also a lie. According to an interview with the Miami Herald, Dr. Julio Cesar Alfonso, a Miami doctor who practiced in Cuba for four years, says that the medical care tourists and VIP's receive is very different from what the general population receives. According to Dr. Alfonso, “If you’re a Cuban citizen and need a prescription drug, most doctors either tell you to ask your relatives in the U.S. to ship it to you or recommend alternative herbal remedies. That’s the degree of scarcity on the island.” Does Moore make this fact known to his audience? Again, doubtful.
I'm certainly no fan of the insurance companies in this country--I had my premium go from $400 to $1,000 per month, just because I had a child, which is preposterous. My wife is consistently labeled "high risk" by insurers, solely because she once had a benign cyst on her lower back. But at least under our current system, we can choose what insurance--if any--we wish to carry, and how much we are willing to pay. We moved to an HSA account, which lowered our premium to less than $200 per month--we get to keep our same doctor and same coverage, and the only difference is that the deductible is higher. Under a socialized medical system, we would have no such choice--our medical benefits would be dictated by the government, and our federal taxes would increase by 20% or more, just to trade one headache for another.
The Saint
That may be true, but we should focus what is likely, not what is possible. Does anyone seriously entertain the idea that the government is going to reduce the burden on the taxpayer by cutting billions out of defense spending?
The Saint
How do they attain money for infrastructure?
"I basically subscribed after I checked out that thread that Sapient posted on expenses and the like. Groceries are one of the most important items, so I'm hoping I'm helping there and I'm hoping I help Sapient break even. If I can help stop him from dipping into the retirement fund, I'll be happy." - The Sarge
I am always quick to distrust those who preach against propaganda while employing propaganda. No one was buying then? No one is buing now? This sort of absolute language is dishonest.
There were plenty of folks who wanted universal healthcare, and there still are. Myself along with about 80% of the RRS members I've asked, we're "buying it."
Would you support a system that had both private and government run systems? A system that you could opt out of should you choose? These are problems that could be worked out if you focus on the issue rather than focus on insulting the filmmaker for that which you are guilty of yourself.
"I basically subscribed after I checked out that thread that Sapient posted on expenses and the like. Groceries are one of the most important items, so I'm hoping I'm helping there and I'm hoping I help Sapient break even. If I can help stop him from dipping into the retirement fund, I'll be happy." - The Sarge
Hello Brian,
No less dishonest than the absolutist language Michael Moore uses in all his films to push his liberal agenda. The fact of the matter is that the Clinton's attempt to pass universal health care failed precisely because the people realize that despite the flaws in our medical system, replacing it with a monolithic government-mandated system is not the solution.
Hasty Generalization. 80% of the RRS membership is not representative of the population as a whole.
If I could opt out of it? Possibly--it depends on the rubrics of the system whether I would accept it as fair. But as I said in response to another post, we need to focus on what's likely, not what's possible; if the government were somehow able to pass a universal health care bill, it would likely not be a hybrid system in which citizens could "opt out", but would instead institute an increase in taxes across the board, and require participation in some fashion in order to justify this increase in taxes.
I believe in freedom of choice, not government control--like it or not, heath care coverage is not a human right one can or should demand from the State.
The Saint
You haven't even seen the movie so you don't even know what you are talking about. Who needs a movie review from someone who only saw a preview (if you've even seen that)? I have a suggestion, watch the film then add something informative rather than your assumptions of the movie based on complete ignorance.
So in order to form an opinion about the benefits/drawbacks of universal health care, I have to see Michael Moore's movie first? Thats not very rational, as it falsely assumes that Moore is the first to bring this subject to light (he isn't), and that his arguments are authoritative (they aren't). I don't need to see his movie to make an informed comment on the subject of universal health care, and furthermore, I don't need to see his new movie to make the argument that Moore is a propagandist, having seen his other work. Put more plainly, I don't need to be a farmer to know when I'm standing in bullshit.
The Saint
You're commenting on Moore being inaccurate and promoting propaganda based on a movie you've never seen. Go see the movie.
So the stunt on the boat at gitmo and the cuban's to the rescue wasn't baldfaced propaganda? If a Christian ministry used such tactics (and they do) you would rip them a new asshole (not sure why, they have enough assholes among them as it is). But when the messenger promotes an idea you agree with (I also think healthcare is broken) he gets more slack than a post-ejaculatory penis.
Sounds rational to me.
My Artwork
The purpose was to get the people health care. Moore went to Cuba for that reason. He was turned away from the American base and he was left with the alternative of Cuba. The movie would have turned out differently if Moore could have gotten the health care that the inmates receive. How is it propaganda when it's fact? The inmates in Cuba get better treatment that the 9/11 volunteers.
Or is any news reporting a propaganda gimick?
What Christian ministry took some people to Cuba for health care? I'm just curious on why I responded the way I'm going to for something I'm not familiar with. Please enlighten me. I figured since I'm for universal health care I could care less if a person gets it at a secular hospital or a religious one but you must know me better so give me that example with the Christian trip to Cuba.
BTW, Michael Moore is Catholic so it appears I really didn't have a problem with a Christian getting some Americans some health care.
Surely you aren't as dense as you appear. Do you think ANYBODY approaching Gitmo unannounced on a boat would be received with anything less than a security detail carrying big guns? I could go there asking the military to supply pink flying ponies to all the orphans and they would turn me away just as quickly. It was pure theater. And pure theater is a tactic used by Christian televangilists all the time - because it WORKS. Moore's propaganda does nothing but further divide the country on one of the most critical issues it faces. Plus he gets people to lap up his vomit like it was chocolate mousse. No wonder he loves what he does.
My Artwork
No, I'm commenting on Moore being inaccurate and promoting propaganda based on his previous work--I don't need to see "SiCKO" in order to make that determination. I have seen nothing from this film via advertising and reviews that would change that determination, and I have no intention of putting more money into his propaganda machine.
You've seen the movie:
Does Moore present a balanced look at socialized medicine by giving equal time to the thousands of people who have had to wait months for routine medical care, or those who have had relatives suffer and die due to lack of care under these systems?
Does Moore explain that "free health care" is not actually free, but must be heavily subsidized by taxpayers, and that despite claims to be a utopian social system, Canada has been forced to consider moving towards more privatization due to the overwhelming problems with the system, such as waiting lists and scarcity of doctors, nurses, and new advances in technology?.
Does Moore explain that the mortality rate among heart disease patients in Canada is 17% higher than in the US due to the fact under Canada's system, specialized cardiac treatments are only available in larger central hospitals, and subject to rejection by government stooges?
Does Moore present any semblance of a counter-argument that would lend any objective credibility to his film?
The Saint
Oh really, you base this on loads of experience or are you simply guessing? I see you have nothing to add other than ad hominem so perhaps I'll try speaking with the adults about this subject.
I take it you aren't one for sequels since you've seen the previous movie you've already concluded about the following one. As usual your argument isn't based on any reason just emotional diatribe which just makes you look foolish.
About the healthcare system in candia having long waits, I have long waits in america. I sometimes have to wait 1 to 2 weeks to see a doctor. a few months for a mri, i have to schedule about a month in advance for a psychrtist appointment. On some other things that require specialists i usually have a wait quite a while for those too. So it doesn't sound to long of a wait in candia for me, just my opinon.
Moore is the same ilk as Rush Limbaugh. It's not ad hominem when it is actually true that Moore is an ass.
And your "speaking with the adults" dig cuts me.
NOT.
My Artwork
I'm British. We have the national health service over here. It is far from perfect but it works and its free fro all.
The NHS costs us £65 billion in taxes per year thats about £1100 ($2200) per man woman and child in the UK.
In the US $2Trillion a year is spent of health inssurence or $6,700 per person.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
Proportionally you spend 2.5 times as much on health care. Infact proportionally you spend far more than any other nation. From what has been said it would seem that far from getting health care 2.5 times better than in the UK things are often actually worse in the USA. It fairly obvious why. The NHS is not interested in making a profit. Inssurence companies and private hospitals and doctors are.
The American system is simply very poor value for money. Infact its a complete and utter con. Totally inefficient. You spend 2.5 times what we do fro heavens sake!!! Wake up!! your being conned. The private sector is not always more efficient, it does not always give better value for money. Somethings need to be in the public domain - health care is most definitly one of them.