The official RRS defeats Way of the Master thread
Offline This is it. This is the official thread that Kelly and Sapient will try to interact with as many visitors as they can. If you are new here, welcome aboard. If viewing this from the homepage you can click the title of the thread, create an account, and post your comments. Kelly and Sapient will not have time to address all the email and would like to keep all of their exchanges public for the benefit of the readers who are curious. Soon we will have a downloadable document available right from this post that will expose as many arguments as we can expose from the ABC Nightline Face Off with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron. Here are the highlights of the face off from our eyes...
Did we make mistakes in the full debate? Yes. We stumbled on a few words, made an inaccurate point or two, and made a weak point at a moment or two. Ironically our worst points still seemed to be too much for them. So while we welcome criticism, especially constructive, please keep in mind that we feel we have a good handle on what we did wrong. We'll grow, learn, and get better. What we're really hoping for in this thread is for the actual content and discussion about gods existence to be brought into question. Challenge us to continue, and we will continue to respond to your claims. If you are a theist, please feel free to post your scientific evidence for God, leaving out the miserable arguments that Ray Comfort has already been beaten on of course. If you are having trouble finding the video on ABCs website, you can find most/all of the videos here. DIGG it.
A thread on our message board that has links to the entire unedited debate.
Other threads of interest:
Nightline Editing Bias - The Supporting Data
Gregfl starts a thread about Bashirs big blunder and the Nightline portrayal.
Some of the Christian mail coming in [YOU RESPOND] about the debate.
Pertaining to Jesus Mythicism A thorough examination of the evidence for Jesus by Rook Hawkins
A Silence That Screams - (No contemporary historical accounts for "jesus) by Todangst
Video from Rook outlining the basics of Jesus Mythicism
UPDATE Sapient spoke with ABC and voiced concerns leveled by many atheists in the community that the editing job for the Nightline piece gave Ray and Kirk a free pass. The most commonly voiced criticism of ABC was that it managed to show the debate as somewhat even and that there was no clear victor. This discussion was accepted only under the understanding that Ray and Kirk would prove God exists without invoking faith or the Bible. Anyone that understood the format saw that Ray and Kirk failed at their premise as soon as the proof of God became the Ten Commandments. ABC was made aware that commentary like "It was difficult to know if either side could claim victory" gave the impression that they were pandering to their largely Christian audience. While Sapient understood that this may be a wise business move, it was noted that it wasn't an accurate representation of the discussion. The Rational Response Squad brought it's "B" game and still destroyed every claim Kirk and Ray threw at them. In more positive news, we were made aware that the ABC unedited video of the debate was viewed over 160,000 times in the first 12 hours. Hopefully a few people have found the strength to overcome their god delusion.
AND THE PWNAGE CONTINUES:
Atheist, Atheism, Agnostic, Rational Response Squad
regardles of mistakes made, the points Ray and Kirk were making were not up to par of scientific empiricism. To point out, that you made some mistakes in your argument is a red herring, something theists do all the time. To find a small flaw, and claiming victory is fallacious...because in the end, Ray and Kirk's whole argument was wrong.
Rational Response Squad homepage
Ray's Coke can argument was something he used way back when he debated at an American Atheist convention. The flaw that it sets up an argument for polytheism was apparently missed on Ray.
Kelly was right to point out that absolutely no scientific arguments were presented. I would have went farther and mentioned that Ray conned everyone by debating under false pretenses but Kelly was probably being a bit nice since her and Brian gave them a sound beating.
Ray's bible arguments about a few of the 613 commandments was weak. If telling a lie makes one a liar does then telling the truth make one honest? His absolute conclusion is debunked by a contradiction since one cannot be a liar and honest at the same time if Ray's fundy logic is correct.
I just had to keep on watching the part where Ray and Kirk were introduced to the First Law of Thermodynamics. It's a concept that is taught in grammar school but Ray and Kirk must have dropped out of school quite early considering their 'deer in the headlights' look.
I can't imagine how Nightline can possibly make the fundies look good. It was a completely one sided debate and Brian was right in calling Ray and Kirk on the fact that they only used fear and emotion in a debate that was billed (by Ray) as being one that would focus solely on science.
Great job guys. Seen it about 3 hours ago.
Was wondering, is there anyway/anywhere we can view the entire debate?
"When I die I shall be content to vanish into nothingness.... No show, however good, could conceivably be good forever.... I do not believe in immortality, and have no desire for it." ~H.L. Mencken
Thank god i'm a atheist!
Brian said the universe always existed? Wasn't it created 13.5 billions years ago? What happened before that?
You're not thinking, you're merely being logical -Neils Bohr to Einstein
There are theories out there that include an infinite universe. Dr. Hawking has explained that our visible universe could be similar to an expanding soap bubble in a foam of multiverses. Whether thats the right theory or not isn't really important though. What matters is the question they posited was used to question Kirk and Ray's perceived importance of an eternal creator.
The mind, once expanded to the dimensions of larger ideas, never returns to its original size. ~Oliver Wendell Holmes
I never thought I would live to see the day when Ray Comfort was totally stumped for something to say. Both of you (Brian and Kelly) were fabulous beyond my wildest hopes. You absolutely devastated the usually-smug and cocky Ray Comfort. I actually felt embarrassed for him, and I truly sensed that he knew that he and Kirk came across as faith-based fools. I'm so very proud to be part of Rational Responders. I'm even more proud now. Tomorrow (Wednesday) I'm spending the entire day and evening sending out email notification to everyone to watch this program. I encourage everyone reading this thread to do the same. If everyone here sends out messages to everyone in your address book, this will increase the viewership by many thousands. As Brian said at the beginning of the clip: this was an historic event -- the first time that a major network carried a debate about God's existence. Let's celebrate this great victory that Brian and Kelly have brought to us.
David Mills
Well, Cpt. Passion Fruit from how I understand current big bang theory our universe as we know it came into existance approximately 14.5 billion years ago. Previous to that we do not know. Current laws of physics state matter cannot be created nor destroyed, so if we use this law of physics we can infer the matter was there before the big bang but do not know the state of the matter. There are other theories of multiverses, and bubble verses, but it boils down to the fact that we do not know the state of anything prior to the big bang and probably never will.
"The Puritans gave thanks for being preserved from the Indians, and we give thanks for being preserved from the Puritans." - Finley Peter Dunne
Since I won't be able to watch it tomorrow, I really, REALLY hope that it is made fully available here.
Talking to Theists
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Very good debate people-!
Keep up the good work, and thanks for being there.
So I was off by a billion years so what?
Anyway, we need space (read: a massive universe) to store matter. No space, no matter. Otherwise where was the matter?
I feel the multiverse theory is extremely similar to God.
a)We can't prove it i.e we can't play Mr.Peabody and go there. Much like we can't see God.
b) We can ANYTHING we want about another Universe and not be proven wrong. In my other thread I presented that Sailor Moon could exist if we had infinite universes. Similar to the way people will say something is God's doing.
So yeah.
You're not thinking, you're merely being logical -Neils Bohr to Einstein
Which is why I made this my last statement.
But we do not plug in the ultimate non-answer, "god".
"The Puritans gave thanks for being preserved from the Indians, and we give thanks for being preserved from the Puritans." - Finley Peter Dunne
BGH, are you hinting that it could possibly be God? That it is at least plausible? At least as plausible as the multi-verse theory?
Come on, I know you are.
You're not thinking, you're merely being logical -Neils Bohr to Einstein
Ummm, NO! Read the statement under the quote. God is a non-answer, a meaningless term and a broken concept.
"The Puritans gave thanks for being preserved from the Indians, and we give thanks for being preserved from the Puritans." - Finley Peter Dunne
Thank you, I make this point all the time.
Here's how I'd make it rhetorically in a debate:
Ray, do you trust your wife more than me?
If so, then you must concede that all people are not equally liars.
Which means that you trust some people more than others.
That means you actually, in your real life, do not act as if everyone is a liar.
I loved that point, and it was one I suggested, although I think the RRS team already considered it. It was killer.
By the way, Comfort is whining that the atheist crowd clapped too much.
Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates
: Operation Spread Eagle, Kent Hovind, Creation Science, Evangelism Ministries, Eric Hovind, Jo Hovind, Liar, Evolution, Copyright, Fraud, Youtube, Fair Use La
Good debate.
I actually thought you were right with the 13.5 billion.
Well, big bang theory holds that all matter was once 'condenced' into a singularity.
It certainly seems grand and mystical.
The problem is that multiverse theory removes the need for a god.
I supposed you could say 'the multiverse is god', but then you'd be leaning towards pantheism, I think.
Not sure I agree, but nice points.
By the way, I disagree with the RRS team's argument that the the laws of thermodynamics forbid universe creation, the laws apply to events within the universe and not necessarily the universe itself. There are scientific ex nihilo creation theories. Want to see one?
Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates
: Operation Spread Eagle, Kent Hovind, Creation Science, Evangelism Ministries, Eric Hovind, Jo Hovind, Liar, Evolution, Copyright, Fraud, Youtube, Fair Use La
For the most part, looks like you guys did a great job. I can't wait to see the whole thing. One question, though: Is Brian arguing in favor of a static universe? I know of no modern cosmologist who still accepts that theory. The Big Bang is pretty well-established, what with cosmic background radiation and all.
We watch "Way of the Master" so you don't have to.
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Let me guess. Vacuum fluctuations?
[edit:fixed quote tags]
You're not thinking, you're merely being logical -Neils Bohr to Einstein
No.
A theist asked the same question at the taping.
He's holding that the singularity prior to our present universe must have existed in some fashion, 'eternally'
According to Penn State physicist Lee Smolin, there are three possible ways to decribe the nature of a singularity, not just one. Brian (and the RRS team) is denying A:
* [A] There is still a first moment in time, even when quantum mechanics is taken into consideration.
* [B] The singularity is eliminated by some quantum mechanical effect. As a result, when we run the clock back, the universe does not reach a state of infinite density. Something else happens when the universe reaches some very high density that allows time to continue indefinitely into the past.
* [C] Something new and strange and quantum mechanical happens to time, which is neither possibility A or B. For example, perhaps we reach a state where it is no longer appropriate to think that reality is composed of a series of moments that follow each other in a progression, one after another. In this case there is perhaps no singularity, but it may also not make sense to ask what happened before the universe was extremely dense.
I actually hold that ex nihilo creation does not violate physics, (and I rely on the works of Edward Tryon and Alex Vilenkin for this) although I tend to favor Brane theory and multiverse myself.Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates
: Operation Spread Eagle, Kent Hovind, Creation Science, Evangelism Ministries, Eric Hovind, Jo Hovind, Liar, Evolution, Copyright, Fraud, Youtube, Fair Use La
Good guess.
But the answer is: quantum tunneling. Because before you can have vacuum fluctuations, you need a vacuum (i.e. dimensionality) and quantu tunneling would work in zero dimensions (i.e. 'nothing'
Ironically, something from nothing is not forbidden when it comes to creating universes... it is only a law that applies within our universe.
Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates
: Operation Spread Eagle, Kent Hovind, Creation Science, Evangelism Ministries, Eric Hovind, Jo Hovind, Liar, Evolution, Copyright, Fraud, Youtube, Fair Use La
It'll be on http://www.abcnews.com at 2 pm et today. We'll have it available at a later date.
"I basically subscribed after I checked out that thread that Sapient posted on expenses and the like. Groceries are one of the most important items, so I'm hoping I'm helping there and I'm hoping I help Sapient break even. If I can help stop him from dipping into the retirement fund, I'll be happy." - The Sarge
I can't wait to watch the whole thing. I am so glad I came across this website.
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
You didn't negotiate broadcast rights?
You're not thinking, you're merely being logical -Neils Bohr to Einstein
I speak in probablities. It's abundantly more likely that the matter and energy that comprise our Universe today have always existed rather than the alternative god. Furthermore, it's equally as ridiculous for people to explain the beginning of the Universe with "god" than to say it was created by a Snarfwidget.
Before our Universe has existed I'm not sure what existed, no scientist is, what I'm sure of is that it's more likely that the matter existed in some state, rather than god.
I'll ask you the same question Ray and Kirk failed on...
If God has always existed, why can't the Universe have always existed?
"I basically subscribed after I checked out that thread that Sapient posted on expenses and the like. Groceries are one of the most important items, so I'm hoping I'm helping there and I'm hoping I help Sapient break even. If I can help stop him from dipping into the retirement fund, I'll be happy." - The Sarge
Thanks David for the positive feedback.
- Brian and Kelly
"I basically subscribed after I checked out that thread that Sapient posted on expenses and the like. Groceries are one of the most important items, so I'm hoping I'm helping there and I'm hoping I help Sapient break even. If I can help stop him from dipping into the retirement fund, I'll be happy." - The Sarge
It'll be available STARTING at 2pm wed et. It'll stay on ABCs site for quite some time.
Don't forget Nightline at 11:35 est.
"I basically subscribed after I checked out that thread that Sapient posted on expenses and the like. Groceries are one of the most important items, so I'm hoping I'm helping there and I'm hoping I help Sapient break even. If I can help stop him from dipping into the retirement fund, I'll be happy." - The Sarge