Got out of the way of Florence, but....

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Got out of the way of Florence, but....

 

I am inland about 190 miles inland in a very sturdy hotel. But my house which I just bought 4 months ago, may get flattened as it is ony 2 miles inalnd. 

 

I also have a couple friends whom have jobs at a nursing home, whom have stayed behind. I am worried about them. 

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 This is my first

 This is my first hurricane, what a welcome to Charleston, and the fucker decides to stay more south. We are about 20 miles inland and decided to stick it out since we are on the fringes. Am eyeing one particular tree and wondering if I am going to regret not having the damn thing cut down.  Enjoy your vacation, hope your house makes it through ok.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 It sucks because right now

 

It sucks because right now looks like the eye is going to hit my area directly. It may get downgraded to a 3 or 2 before it comes inland. You should be fine besides broken tree limbs. I just bought the house 4 months ago.

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 Climate change ?

 Climate change ?


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I'll take the occasional

I'll take the occasional Canadian winter over occasional hurricanes. You peeps live dangerously.

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  Speaking of living

  Speaking of living dangerously, I just read that there are 12 nuclear reactors within the Carolinas and hurricane Florence is predicted to be a category 5 hurricane when it makes landfall.  Fukashima 2.0 ?

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ProzacDeathWish wrote: 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Speaking of living dangerously, I just read that there are 12 nuclear reactors within the Carolinas and hurricane Florence is predicted to be a category 5 hurricane when it makes landfall.  Fukashima 2.0 ?

The libtard global warming alarmists were hoping for a catagory 6(they wanted it to be so strong they'd have to invent a new category). Just so they could say it is Trump/Capitalists/right wingers fault. Now that it is just a little Category 1, we get to hear 'weather is not the same as climate' and 'the hurricane drought is a statistical anomoly'. The major hurricane drought continues, even thought the global warming alarmists were certain in 2005 that we'd be hit with dozens of Katrinas every year until we adopt worldwide Socialism that taxes fossil fuels. They really need a big hurricane badly to promote global enslavement.

But the storm is going to be just powerful enough that taxpayers have to bailout rich people that just love living at a warm water beach but are too cheap to buy insurance. The media will make sure idiots have lots of empathy for these millionares. That is my prediction.

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Vastet wrote:I'll take the

Vastet wrote:
I'll take the occasional Canadian winter over occasional hurricanes. You peeps live dangerously.

Oh no, I am no badass, I got the fuck out of there.

I am 190 miles inland at a hotel. Florance is now a Catigory 1.  But the county my house is in is going to get the brunt of it. It is rated for a cat 3 and has hurricane straps. But I didn't cover my windows. I was hopping last night that it would hit above my county and get it downgraded to a Tropical Storm. But that fucker waited till this morning and the eye is hitting directly on my county, and wont reach SC till 2am Saturday. So a full day of Cat 1 gusts. 

 

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You got out, but you and

You got out, but you and millions of others still bought property square in the middle of hurricane territory. From Texas to NC along the coast it's really just a matter of time before a major hurricane whips in. I don't wish for people who make the choice to live there to lose everything, but I do see it as inevitable it will happen.

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 It  hit as a cat 1, but

 

It  hit as a cat 1, but the time it went south over where my house is, the eye was undefined. Throughout the day I was watching live stream of my local news online, being so far away. It looks like my neighborhood dodged a bullet. I cant really go back till Tuesday because it will still be raining and don't know about the inland flooding on the major highways on the way back. Was talking to people in my county who stayed and mostly downed trees. 

 

Mathew two years ago caused far more inland river flooding than damage to the coast. It is looking to be the same again. My house is not near any rivers not even the inner coastal waterway. 

 

So what I fear most are broken windows and looters. 

 

 

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 https://twitter.com/gourdni

 https://twitter.com/gourdnibler/status/1040678572262916096

This is hilarious. The hurricane reporter is bracing for his life, then 2 dudes stroll by like it's a sunny afternoon at the beach.

The media is selling you a story, not telling you the truth.

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 The people that were

 The people that were "killed" by the storm are basically Darwin Award winners. They drive into a flooded road, they don't make sure a tree isn't going to be knocked over by a some wind onto their house. The storm just speeds up evolutionary process a bit. The reporting is to increase the drama of villian storm. Every good story needs an antagonist.

The libtard media has a story about a family that is hunkered down for the storm from hell, because it is Disney we need a good family drama with mom as our protagonist. Oh, will the family survive:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/mom-kids-hunker-north-carolina-crazy-frightening-hurricane/story?id=57822916&cid=clicksource_4380645_4_t...

But if it was such a dangerous storm, the parents should be immediatly arrested for child endangerment, the Disney executives fined and arrested for encouraging illegal behavior. But we know that won't happen.

Because we're watching the Truman Show.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC

EXC wrote:

 https://twitter.com/gourdnibler/status/1040678572262916096

This is hilarious. The hurricane reporter is bracing for his life, then 2 dudes stroll by like it's a sunny afternoon at the beach.

The media is selling you a story, not telling you the truth.

 

Go fuck yourself! 

 

Take your Alex Jones conspiracy crack pipe and shove it up your fucking ass!

 

I have seen what Mathew did two years ago, and it doesn't have to be a Cat 5 to cause damage.  We have had a century of assholes like you valuing giant corporations bent on profit regardless of how it damages our planet.

 

There is more to hurricane damage than always seeing flattened houses. Storm surge and river flooding are a huge problem in North and South Carolina and even with Cat 1s and mere tropical storms, I see this every fucking year even outside hurricanes.

 

I live here you STUPID FUCK!

 

My mom was alive during Mathew living at a nursing home, and THEY SUFFERED a worker shortage BECAUSE many of them lived in a flood prone area and could not get to work.

AND YOU DUMBASS! One of our local stations was FLOODED this time. You fucking think the entirre staff at that News station staged that too?

 

Google "WCTI" in the FLOODED TOWN OF NEW BERN NC! That is just one town. NC and SC are FUCKING FULL  OF INLETS, AND RIVERS PRONE TO FLOODING in periods of heavy rain.

 Here is a link to a local non TV network source. Some fucking conpiracy, everyone is in on it. Oh and look at this, pictures of more than one location.

 

 

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/weather/index.ssf/2018/09/hurricane_florence_photos_flooding_water_rescues_t.html And you fucking asshole. I got a tweet during all this from a nurse friend of mine who was in HS used as a shelter and part of the roof was ripped off. And she said the parking lot was flooded and trees down in several places. I also had an elderly friend tell me that a tree fell on her house, fortunately it did not go through. A family in Wilmington NC was not so lucky and a woman and child WERE KILLED and that tree did go through the house.

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 FYI EXE, you insenstitive

 FYI EXE, you insenstitive ASSHOLE

A couple of these victims friends are staying at the hotel I am at. Just met them at breakfast this morning. So they were faking it too?

 

 

 

 

https://www.wcnc.com/article/weather/hurricanes/hurricane-florence/mom-infant-in-wilmington-were-the-first-victims-of-hurricane-fl...

Even without death, even without floods, it still takes MONEY to clean up fallen trees. 780,000 in NC are without power because of wind and tree damage to power lines. That death toll is going to go up over time even over things like heat stroke, because the temps around here are going to be in the mid 80s. Lack of medication and medical supplies for special needs and elderly. Infections from dirty flood water too.

There is an economic toll too, workers will not be able to go back to work for days, if not even weeks. The tourism industry lost money during the storm, and will lose lots more because it will take time to get power back on, even in the structures with no damage. So even if you don't give a shit about people dying, a insensitive fuck like you should at least care about loss of profit because of the storm.

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 Everything EXC says is a

 Everything EXC says is a lie. It's really that simple.

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Beyond Saving wrote: This

Beyond Saving wrote:

 This is my first hurricane, what a welcome to Charleston, and the fucker decides to stay more south. We are about 20 miles inland and decided to stick it out since we are on the fringes. Am eyeing one particular tree and wondering if I am going to regret not having the damn thing cut down.  Enjoy your vacation, hope your house makes it through ok.

Welcome to the coast.. Vastet did say it correctly in this thread, as much as coastal dwellers don't want to face it, he is right. It is only a matter of time. I hope when I go back I still have a home left. 

Judging what my friends have said who stayed, and knowing the history of the topograpy of where I live, the worst I should have to face are broken windows and looters. Not good in any case, but far less expensive than a flattened house.

 

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Hopefully insurance will

Hopefully insurance will cover any damage

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 Would my sensitivity fix

 

Would my sensitivity fix actual systemic problems that lead to human misery in the long term? No. Only a rational response would.

Why do people find it necessary to live in a flood zone? You and Vastet believe that population pressures abosolutly never can exist. So why don't people just build in non-flood zones? The fact is population pressures like mass migration cause people to live whereever they can. So don't tell me uncontrolled immigration does not contribute to the problem.

Why aren't prisioners and able bodied welfare recipients building levees, sewers and sea walls? This storm like this should not be surprising or unexpected. Instead taxpayers pay for these people to sit and watch TV where CNN/Disney tells them what victim they are so they should just demand government give them free stuff. No taxpayers have to pay for the repairs.

It is the lack of preparation that killed, not the evil storm. Turn off the media for once and use any brain cells you may have.

The real story here is that the USA is turning into a third world shithole due to lack of infrastucture to handle a normal event like a CAT 1 hurricane, and population pressures due to uncontrolled immigration. While brianwashed idiots play the virtue signaling game to make themselves feel better, but problems only get worse. It is rationalality we need not the empathy game.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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 EXC has a point about the

 EXC has a point about the media hyping it up. That weather reporter was clearly faking the "strong winds". But then, weather reporters have done that everywhere I've lived, it is actually kind of a disservice because their hype before the storms is exactly why people ignore evacuation orders. I was technically under a "mandatory evacuation" but it was clear the storm wasn't going to hit us and we had breezes of 30 MPH (what was known as a calm day when I lived in Iowa). The professional weather folk knew that on Wednesday, but the TV "weather man" was acting like the storm was going to be a direct hit on Charleston. A little common sense goes a long way.

Then they hype up the deaths,

"In Wayne County, an 81-year-old man died Friday after falling and striking his head while he was packing to evacuate."- Ok, an 81 year old falls bumps his head and dies. He could have done that walking to the bathroom, it happens literally every single day. Just because a storm happens to be headed that direction does not suddenly make it a storm related death. One of the sucky things about getting old is that falls increasingly become potentially deadly.

 

"A 61-year-old woman was killed late Friday when the vehicle she was driving struck a tree that had fallen across Highway 18 near Union, South Carolina, the state's highway patrol confirms to CBS News. The woman, who was wearing a seat belt, died at the scene, Capt. Kelley Hughes of the South Carolina Highway Patrol told the Associated Press. No passengers were in the vehicle at the time of the crash. The tree was about 6 feet above the road surface. Hughes said the vehicle's roof is what struck the tree."- Basically a car accident. Clearly, she wasn't paying attention, maybe texting or something. Car accidents happen all the time. Indeed, far fewer car accidents happen during storms. How many people would otherwise have died while commuting to work? Or driving home from the bar? That didn't because everything was closed. Again, not really a "storm related death".

"The state also listed the deaths of a 78-year-old man in Lenoir County, who died when he was electrocuted"- This one is definitely a Darwin Award candidate, he died plugging two extension cord together while standing outside during the rain. The biggest mystery is how the fuck he managed to survive to 78. I guess it is a situation that wouldn't have occurred without the storm, but really it is his own damn stupidity. 

 

"a 77-year-old man in Lenoir County who fell and died due to a cardiac problem while outside checking on dogs during the storm"- Is it a shock when a 77 year old has a cardiac event? Maybe the extra stress didn't help, but old people die from cardiac events all the time. It is more of a question of when than if it will happen. He might have had a cardiac event hunting with his dogs (that's how I hope I go). 

"a husband and wife who died in a house fire in Cumberland County"- People die in fires all the time. 3,400 people die from fires every year. While these two died, on average another 25 people died in other areas of the country from house fires in the last 72 hours and don't even get a blurb outside of very local news media. Maybe the fire crews could have gotten there in time, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Storm related? 

"Saturday; in Pender County, officials said that a woman died Friday morning when she was having a heart attack and emergency crews were unable to reach her in time due to downed trees and debris in the road."- Another elderly person dies of a heart attack. Could EMS have saved her? Maybe, maybe not. EMS crews get delayed by stupid shit all the time. Assholes who don't pull over, car accidents, traffic jams etc. And even when they arrive quickly, that is far from a guarantee of survival. 

"a 41-year-old woman and her seven-month-old son who died in Wilmington on Friday when a tree fell on their home."- Actual direct deaths due to the storm. The big question in my mind is why the fuck were they there? You have a god damned kid, you are exactly where they have been saying the storm will hit for well over a week. Then to not even be aware of where the trees are around your house so that you can avoid the portions that are likely to be hit... I feel bad for the infant who didn't have a choice. 

"two people died when flash flooding overwhelmed roads on Saturday"- A couple more direct deaths, though you have to wonder what they were doing driving on flooding roads. 

So 4 deaths directly due to the storm. Approximately 100,000 people die per year in North Carolina from various causes. So in the 3 days since the storm hit, we could expect that somewhere around 820 people have died of various causes.

To chalk up every heart attack, every fall, every accident as a "storm related death"  does nothing but inflate the death count and try to make things sound more severe than they are. Fortunately, this storm seems to primarily be a property damage event. Property can be replaced, flood damage can often be repaired, life goes on. 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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EXC wrote:Would my

EXC wrote:
Would my sensitivity fix actual systemic problems that lead to human misery in the long term? No. Only a rational response would.

Everything EXC says is a lie, and nothing EXC says is rational.

EXC wrote:
Why do people find it necessary to live in a flood zone?

Why do you find it necessary to lie constantly? Because you're too stupid to know any better.

EXC wrote:
You and Vastet believe that population pressures abosolutly never can exist.

Everything EXC says is a lie. Population pressures always exist. What doesn't exist is overpopulation. Not yet and most likely not ever.

EXC wrote:
So why don't people just build in non-flood zones?

Because water is there and you need water to build cities and farms. Most every city in the world is in a flood plain, retard.

EXC wrote:
The fact is population pressures like mass migration cause people to live whereever they can.

Everything EXC says is a lie. The fact is that humans need water and therefore live near water which guarantees humans have to deal with flooding.

EXC wrote:
So don't tell me uncontrolled immigration does not contribute to the problem.

I'll tell you the truth whether you like it or not. Immigration has absolutely nothing to do with it.

EXC wrote:
Why aren't prisioners and able bodied welfare recipients building levees, sewers and sea walls?

Why don't you know anything? Same reason: Capitalist indoctrination.

EXC wrote:
This storm like this should not be surprising or unexpected.

Yes it should. No event that only happens once a decade or less should be anything but a surprise. People are bad at planning for the future.

EXC wrote:
Instead taxpayers pay for these people to sit and watch TV where CNN/Disney tells them what victim they are so they should just demand government give them free stuff.

Everything EXC says is a lie.

EXC wrote:
No taxpayers have to pay for the repairs.

Everything EXC says is a lie. Insurance companies pay for repairs. Taxpayers barely do anything. A few dollars for the whole year. You're such a baby.

EXC wrote:
It is the lack of preparation that killed, not the evil storm.

It is a lack of preparation, because in capitalism it doesn't pay to be prepared, until something actually happens.

EXC wrote:
Turn off the media for once and use any brain cells you may have.

Says the corporate puppet with no brain cells.

EXC wrote:
The real story here is that the USA is turning into a third world shithole due to lack of infrastucture to handle a normal event like a CAT 1 hurricane, and population pressures due to uncontrolled immigration.

The US is turning into a shithole by unrestrained capitalism, which is completely responsible for the lack of stable infrastructure. You don't have uncontrolled immigration and you never have, and the population size has nothing to do with anything.

EXC wrote:
While brianwashed idiots play the virtue signaling game to make themselves feel better, but problems only get worse. It is rationalality we need not the empathy game.

Says the brainwashed psychopathic idiot.

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EXC wrote:Why do people find

EXC wrote:

Why do people find it necessary to live in a flood zone? You and Vastet believe that population pressures abosolutly never can exist. So why don't people just build in non-flood zones? The fact is population pressures like mass migration cause people to live whereever they can. So don't tell me uncontrolled immigration does not contribute to the problem.

Because living on the beach is nice. It certainly isn't because they have no other choice. In most areas, the worst flood zones are among the most expensive properties, not poverty stricken areas. Property values were substantially cheaper in Ohio, well away from any potential flood danger than they are where I live now. People don't live in Charleston, Myrtle Beach, Wilmington because they are the only places they can afford to live. Move 100 miles inland and land, rent and cost of living is significantly less. 

Quote:

Why aren't prisioners and able bodied welfare recipients building levees, sewers and sea walls? This storm like this should not be surprising or unexpected. Instead taxpayers pay for these people to sit and watch TV where CNN/Disney tells them what victim they are so they should just demand government give them free stuff. No taxpayers have to pay for the repairs.

Building such things is not something that can adequately be performed by unskilled labor. It would require hiring skilled labor, which would be expensive. Additionally, the wealthy who spend shit tons of money to have a view of the ocean don't want to be looking at a seawall large enough to protect from hurricane storm surges.  

 

Quote:

It is the lack of preparation that killed, not the evil storm. Turn off the media for once and use any brain cells you may have.

Not really. Some of the deaths were preventable, but I don't see how additional preparation would have helped. Building a giant waterproof bubble around coastal cities might avoid 100% of hurricane deaths, but avoiding 100% of hurricane deaths strikes me as a very irrational goal. Forcefully evacuation the entire coast would work too, but again a rather irrational goal. People die, get over it.  

 

Quote:

The real story here is that the USA is turning into a third world shithole due to lack of infrastucture to handle a normal event like a CAT 1 hurricane, and population pressures due to uncontrolled immigration. While brianwashed idiots play the virtue signaling game to make themselves feel better, but problems only get worse. It is rationalality we need not the empathy game.

Which is it? Are the deaths being overhyped or is the infrastructure unable to handle the hurricane? It can't be both. If what you are saying is true, we would expect the death count to be in the hundreds or thousands. To compare the US to a third world country is absurd. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 There were 380 water

 

There were 380 water rescues in New Bern NC alone.  Today there are still over 600,000 in NC without power. The media is not hyping it up. Again, I have lived on the coast for 13 years, and even regular storms cause damage and flooding. 

 

 

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Brian37 wrote: There were

Brian37 wrote:

 

There were 380 water rescues in New Bern NC alone. 

SURPRISE! Who could have guessed that New Bern would flood? 

 

 

Quote:

Today there are still over 600,000 in NC without power.

SURPRISE!

Quote:

The media is not hyping it up.

Of course they are. The media hypes up EVERYTHING. Hyping shit is kind of their job description. If it bleeds it leads. 

Quote:

Again, I have lived on the coast for 13 years, and even regular storms cause damage and flooding. 

Exactly, you live in a low lying area with plenty of water from rivers, ocean and swamps and flooding is a fact of life. It happens. How many people died in New Bern? Zero. A few hundred people needed saving, and they were saved. Property damage sucks, but when you build in an area that is known to be susceptible to high floods, it doesn't make a lot of sense to complain about it.

The smart people moved inland (even many not so smart people), it isn't like the hurricane came out of nowhere, it isn't like the flooding was unpredicted and even I prepared to go without power for a week or two even though the worst case scenario around here was only tropical storm winds. Humans survived thousands of years without electricity, it really isn't that hard with a little bit of planning. Those that decided to stay right where the storm was predicted to hit over a week ago, ought to be prepared for flooding and no electricity. Judging by how few direct storm deaths there have been, it appears that most people did prepare appropriately.  

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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The media definitely

The media definitely overhypes everything these days. Thanks to capitalism. It's profitable.

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Beyond Saving wrote: People

Beyond Saving wrote:

 People don't live in Charleston, Myrtle Beach, Wilmington because they are the only places they can afford to live. Move 100 miles inland and land, rent and cost of living is significantly less.

But living in expensive areas also means higher pay. The rich that live on the beach need laborers to serve them, they start businesses nearby themselves that employ. You live 100 miles away not much employment opprotunities. Many don't want to commute 5 hours a day. They system is set up so the working man can't win. Low wages or high cost of living, pick your poison.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Building such things is not something that can adequately be performed by unskilled labor. It would require hiring skilled labor, which would be expensive. Additionally, the wealthy who spend shit tons of money to have a view of the ocean don't want to be looking at a seawall large enough to protect from hurricane storm surges.  

Everyone starts out as unskilled labor. You become skilled labor by studying and doing. Since we have no mandatory birth control, we have a lot of people from dysfunctional families where the parents did little to help their children succeed. All the money we spend on schools and prisions should be able to fix the problem. But we have state run monopoies running both of these. We get the same results as Venezuela and Mexico get from their state run oil industries. Nothing but failure and corruption.

It is not a good situation to have all these men in prisions or doing drugs and not working in jobs like construction. This has to be fixed.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Not really. Some of the deaths were preventable, but I don't see how additional preparation would have helped. Building a giant waterproof bubble around coastal cities might avoid 100% of hurricane deaths, but avoiding 100% of hurricane deaths strikes me as a very irrational goal. Forcefully evacuation the entire coast would work too, but again a rather irrational goal. People die, get over it.  

Me upset about the deaths??? Brian and Vastet will tell you I'm a sociopath happy to see these people die. They are all either Darwin award winners that do things like run an electric generator in flood waters or they were old and would soon die anyways. It wasn't a so big storm that it would cause deaths all by itself.

The media needs to invent stories to get eyeballs to look at them. Reporters need to pad their resumes. Follow the money, that tells why the news is they way it is.

I just would rather see infrastructure built to handle a totally unsurprising event, rather than me being forced to come to financially rescue of all these property owners. I'm selfish, OK. But so is everyone else.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Which is it? Are the deaths being overhyped or is the infrastructure unable to handle the hurricane? It can't be both. If what you are saying is true, we would expect the death count to be in the hundreds or thousands. To compare the US to a third world country is absurd. 

Slow moving flood waters are not a threat to people, but they are to buildings. The deaths are being overhyped, the cost to taxpayers underhyped. Follow the money and you'll know why this is the case.

The deaths are being hyped to get people to watch the story. If it bleeds it leads. What is bad is the cost of homes damaged by floods that should have prevented with rational planning. Reporting on lack of infrastructure in not dramatic enough so it is undercovered, too many technical details for the unwashed masses.

This bad reporting has the effect of making people think the storm was the problem, not the lack of preparation. So aiding the victims of the 'killer' storm, becomes another budern for all taxpayers nationally. This creates a moral hazard because people will continue living in unprotected flood zones thinking government will bail them out.

I think all landowners should be the ones to pay for flood control. If you use land that is not prone to floods, you force others to build in areas that are prone. So pay for that privledge.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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 EXE you are one selfish

 EXE you are one selfish self centered ASSHOLE! 

No you STUPID FUCK, Taxation is how you keep a civilized society. Your fucking bullshit utopia of thinking humans will always do the right thing when left to their own divices is FUCKING BULLSHIT.

In reality taxes are what pay for our military and our police, and in the west, our checks on power, precisely because humans can be cruel and greedy and lust for power regardless of how that individual was raised.

 

Third world banana republics and dictatorships are what you get when you allow monopolies of power.

 

Taxation without representation does not mean "no taxes at all".

 

Arguing what we should use our taxes on is one thing, but saying you can have a society with no taxes at all is FUCKING BULLSHIT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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EXC is deluded and thinks

EXC is deluded and thinks highways built themselves.

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 The highways and roads

 

The highways and roads between where I am at now, and my home have so much flooding and damage, I'll have to drive to Argentina to get around all of it.

This sucks, I am hoping the water receedes by Friday so I can go the route I am used to going. I just might have to buy a GPS otherwise to get around all of it.

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Brian37 wrote:Taxation is

Brian37 wrote:

Taxation is how you keep a civilized society.

The rich and powerful mantain and increase their control and wealth via taxation. The rich and powerful always exempt themselves from the laws and taxes they place on everyone else. Taxation is wealth without work.

I don't say the government doesn't need money. I just say the goverment get by with just the money it gets from users fees for services provided.

Brian37 wrote:

Your fucking bullshit utopia of thinking humans will always do the right thing when left to their own divices is FUCKING BULLSHIT.

So why are people suddenly geniuses at the ballot box and do the right thing? Why are politician and lobbyists better at deciding than the people who work for a living?

Brian37 wrote:

In reality taxes are what pay for our military and our police, and in the west, our checks on power, precisely because humans can be cruel and greedy and lust for power regardless of how that individual was raised.

But human nature changes when they get in the ballot box and vote for socialism? These people are not greedy. Is there something magical in the DNA of you and fellothat makes you not greedy? You want weatlh you didn't earn, that seems pretty greedy to me.

 

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Vastet wrote:EXC is deluded

Vastet wrote:
EXC is deluded and thinks highways built themselves.

When I see road construction, I see equipment, materials and laborers all from greedy capitalist pigs. I never see a politcian and lobbyist sweating to build anything. So why do you need these middlemen than know nothing about construction?

Technology is available to make every road a toll road. No need to tax people that would never use a road.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Vastet wrote:EXC

EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC is deluded and thinks highways built themselves.

When I see road construction, I see equipment, materials and laborers all from greedy capitalist pigs. I never see a politcian and lobbyist sweating to build anything. So why do you need these middlemen than know nothing about construction?

Technology is available to make every road a toll road. No need to tax people that would never use a road.

Funny how it's ONLY government that built highways and most roads. You must need politicians or there would be examples of cultures who built roads without politicians. You're so clueless.

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Vastet wrote: Funny how

Vastet wrote:

Funny how it's ONLY government that built highways and most roads. You must need politicians or there would be examples of cultures who built roads without politicians. You're so clueless.

 

Has Socialism as you define it ever been tried? If the system is so great now, why change to what you believe?

People build roads all the time on land they own. Government has ultimate control over land(eminate domain). But goverment only needs to give permision to build a road, they don't need to tax. Where is it written in stone that we need politicians? The people that would use the road and be impacted by the road should decide directly. They hire construction professions to build roads, not politians that no nothing except how to brainwash the masses.

This isn't 1818 where you can't commicate instantly so you needed representaves to travel to the Capital city to decide important issues. Technology makes politicians obsolete, they are nothing but tools of the rich.

We haven't evolved yet into purely rational beings. Humanity mostly competes instead of cooperates so pure rationality can't be tried until this situation is addressed first(e.g. population controls). Homosapiens are still (mostly)hairless apes. So we still have alpha males that use violence and the threat of violence to subjugate the masses(political class, working class). The unwashed masses such as you are convinced we need a group of elites to control everything via their indoctrination programs in the schools and control over the media.

People that live under a mafia, drug gangs or a war lord are convinced they need these rulers to get anything done and maintain order. Just as you are convinced you need your Canadian 'Social Justice' politicians to tax the crap out the working man to get anything done.

At the time of the American revolution, the British said it was impossible to have a society with a king and nobilty to rule over everyone. Self determination could never work. High taxation was needed to maintain royal control and order. Canadians didn't agree so they didn't join the revolution. Due to technology limitations in the 1700s, we had to settle for representative democracy and taxation instead of user fees. Hopefully the next revoluton will get rid of the politicians and taxation just to keep politicians in power and taxes that don't provide benefit to the people being taxed.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Has Socialism as

EXC wrote:
Has Socialism as you define it ever been tried?

Nope.

EXC wrote:
If the system is so great now, why change to what you believe?

Because it would be better, retard.

EXC wrote:
People build roads all the time on land they own.

No they don't. Everything EXC says is a lie.

EXC wrote:
Government has ultimate control over land(eminate domain).

Without which there would be 0 highways. Anywhere. Ever.

EXC wrote:
But goverment only needs to give permision to build a road, they don't need to tax.

Everything EXC says is a lie. Only governments build road networks. And they aren't built for free.

EXC wrote:
Where is it written in stone that we need politicians?

Throughout all of recorded history.

EXC wrote:
The people that would use the road and be impacted by the road should decide directly.

Good luck getting 500 million plus people agreeing. You're such an idiot.

EXC wrote:
They hire construction professions to build roads, not politians that no nothing except how to brainwash the masses.

If that were possible then why has it never happened? Why was it necessary for the government to build the highway system? Why didn't these people build the system decades earlier? Because you live in a brainwashed fantasy.

EXC wrote:
This isn't 1818 where you can't commicate instantly so you needed representaves to travel to the Capital city to decide important issues.

You wouldn't be communicating instantly if governments didn't build and maintain the Internet.

EXC wrote:
Technology makes politicians obsolete, they are nothing but tools of the rich.

Technology wouldn't have got where it is without governments, and you are nothing but a tool of the rich.

EXC wrote:
We haven't evolved yet into purely rational beings.

And we never will.

EXC wrote:
Humanity mostly competes instead of cooperates so pure rationality can't be tried until this situation is addressed first(e.g. population controls).

Ridiculous. If that were true then we'd already be extinct. Everything EXC says is a lie.

EXC wrote:
Homosapiens are still (mostly)hairless apes.

Irrelevant.

EXC wrote:
So we still have alpha males that use violence and the threat of violence to subjugate the masses(political class, working class).

Everything EXC says is a lie. If violence gave one power then fighters would be the politicians, not lawyers.

EXC wrote:
The unwashed masses such as you are convinced we need a group of elites to control everything via their indoctrination programs in the schools and control over the media.

Your indoctrination has made you a screeching fool who's only ideas are on how to make things worse.

EXC wrote:
People that live under a mafia, drug gangs or a war lord are convinced they need these rulers to get anything done and maintain order.

Everything EXC says is a lie.

EXC wrote:
Just as you are convinced you need your Canadian 'Social Justice' politicians to tax the crap out the working man to get anything done.

Everything EXC says is a lie.

EXC wrote:
At the time of the American revolution, the British said it was impossible to have a society with a king and nobilty to rule over everyone.

Everything EXC says is a lie.

EXC wrote:
Self determination could never work.

Everything EXC says is a lie.

EXC wrote:
High taxation was needed to maintain royal control and order.

Everything EXC says is a lie.

EXC wrote:
Canadians didn't agree so they didn't join the revolution.

Everything EXC says is a lie.

EXC wrote:
Due to technology limitations in the 1700s, we had to settle for representative democracy and taxation instead of user fees.

Everything EXC says is a lie.

EXC wrote:
Hopefully the next revoluton will get rid of the politicians and taxation just to keep politicians in power and taxes that don't provide benefit to the people being taxed.

Everything EXC says is a lie, and none of EXC's delusions will ever come to pass because they are irrational and unworkable.

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Vastet wrote:EXC

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
People build roads all the time on land they own.
No they don't. Everything EXC says is a lie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_road

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2012/03/23/americas-coolest-driveways/#446c7d5d4be2

Government doesn't produce shit. Private contractors do all the work in any construction project. Just because the goverment has control over land use doesn't mean that they build roads.

 

 Yes, I'm just like the devil. Everything is a lie. Amazing how you parallel religious fanatics and cult members. 'There can't be roads without the all powerful goverment providing it' sounds remarkable like 'there can't be morality without an all powerful god enforcing it'.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Brian37 wrote:Taxation is

Brian37 wrote:

Taxation is how you keep a civilized society.  

The theist claims it is the morality from religion that keeps a civilized society. That people won't do the right thing on their own, so they need beilef in an all powerful entity providing order.

Your argument is essentially the same, that people on their own and the free market won't do the right thing so we need an all powerful enforcer of economic justice and order.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Vastet wrote:EXC

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC is deluded and thinks highways built themselves.

When I see road construction, I see equipment, materials and laborers all from greedy capitalist pigs. I never see a politcian and lobbyist sweating to build anything. So why do you need these middlemen than know nothing about construction?

Technology is available to make every road a toll road. No need to tax people that would never use a road.

Funny how it's ONLY government that built highways and most roads. You must need politicians or there would be examples of cultures who built roads without politicians. You're so clueless.

 

In the late 1700s more than 10,000 miles of turnpike were built privately. They were funded by corporations and private investors, the land was typically obtained by giving the land owner stock in the road company. To put things in perspective, the interstate system is just under 50,000 miles and utilizes a significant portion of the pre-existing turnpikes. Some of which have remained privately owned and operated. It wasn't until the late 1800s that the federal government became significantly involved in building infrastructure. States offered subsidies in the early 1800s but  due to the clusterfuck of projects never being built, nearly every state amended their constitution to ban subsidies for road construction. By 1850, it was generally accepted that roads were built privately. That changed after the Civil War and the federal government got heavily involved in subsidizing infrastructure.

If it wasn't for the Republican party and their close ties to railroad companies and their strengthening of the federal government, the US would probably be a country of primarily private roads. The only reason the government is needed to build roads today is the expectation that the government is responsible for building roads. Why would anyone pay for building a road when you can just donate a fraction of the money and get the government to build it for you with other people's money? (and give you a tax break for "economic stimulus" to boot) 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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EXC wrote:Vastet wrote:EXC

EXC wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_road

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2012/03/23/americas-coolest-driveways/#446c7d5d4be2 Government doesn't produce shit. Private contractors do all the work in any construction project. Just because the goverment has control over land use doesn't mean that they build roads.

 

 Yes, I'm just like the devil. Everything is a lie. Amazing how you parallel religious fanatics and cult members. 'There can't be roads without the all powerful goverment providing it' sounds remarkable like 'there can't be morality without an all powerful god enforcing it'.

Everything EXC says is a lie.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Numbered_Highway_System

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expressways_of_China

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-African_Highway_network

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-American_Highway

Not one single network done by anything except a government. Everything built by government.

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Beyond Saving wrote:Vastet

Beyond Saving wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC is deluded and thinks highways built themselves.

When I see road construction, I see equipment, materials and laborers all from greedy capitalist pigs. I never see a politcian and lobbyist sweating to build anything. So why do you need these middlemen than know nothing about construction?

Technology is available to make every road a toll road. No need to tax people that would never use a road.

Funny how it's ONLY government that built highways and most roads. You must need politicians or there would be examples of cultures who built roads without politicians. You're so clueless.

 

In the late 1700s more than 10,000 miles of turnpike were built privately. They were funded by corporations and private investors, the land was typically obtained by giving the land owner stock in the road company. To put things in perspective, the interstate system is just under 50,000 miles and utilizes a significant portion of the pre-existing turnpikes. Some of which have remained privately owned and operated. It wasn't until the late 1800s that the federal government became significantly involved in building infrastructure. States offered subsidies in the early 1800s but  due to the clusterfuck of projects never being built, nearly every state amended their constitution to ban subsidies for road construction. By 1850, it was generally accepted that roads were built privately. That changed after the Civil War and the federal government got heavily involved in subsidizing infrastructure.

If it wasn't for the Republican party and their close ties to railroad companies and their strengthening of the federal government, the US would probably be a country of primarily private roads. The only reason the government is needed to build roads today is the expectation that the government is responsible for building roads. Why would anyone pay for building a road when you can just donate a fraction of the money and get the government to build it for you with other people's money? (and give you a tax break for "economic stimulus" to boot) 

That was a shit and inefficient system that barely could serve horses and could never have handled vehicular traffic. The idea that private citizens could have built the highway network in the US is betrayed by the fact it never happened. A few dirt roads in no way compares to the network of highways, bridges, and tunnels built by governments. There'd be an ocean of liquid tar in the summer and roads would wash away constantly if it were even attempted because citizens and corporations do it on the cheap on average far more than governments do.

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Brian37 wrote: EXE you are

Brian37 wrote:

 EXE you are one selfish self centered ASSHOLE! 

No you STUPID FUCK, Taxation is how you keep a civilized society. Your fucking bullshit utopia of thinking humans will always do the right thing when left to their own divices is FUCKING BULLSHIT.

In reality taxes are what pay for our military and our police, and in the west, our checks on power, precisely because humans can be cruel and greedy and lust for power regardless of how that individual was raised.

 

Third world banana republics and dictatorships are what you get when you allow monopolies of power.

 

Taxation without representation does not mean "no taxes at all".

 

Arguing what we should use our taxes on is one thing, but saying you can have a society with no taxes at all is FUCKING BULLSHIT.

Wow good thing ancient Greece fell apart and was conquered by Rome. I never realized how 'uncivilized ' they were. Why the uncivilized nutjobs had the crazy idea that rich should pay for things themselves. That those seeking political power should donate their wealth to public works to become popular. Could you imagine poor Buffett having to pay for his own railroads!?! Or Trump donating his own fortune on public works!?!? Or Obama leaving office poorer than he went in instead of becoming a millionaire!?!? Or poor GW donating his inheritance to education, or Nancy Pelosi donating her fortune to healthcare!?!? How uncivilized. How terrible it Wal-Mart Amazon and Google had to build their own infrastructure.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Vastet wrote:Beyond Saving

Vastet wrote:
Beyond Saving wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC is deluded and thinks highways built themselves.

When I see road construction, I see equipment, materials and laborers all from greedy capitalist pigs. I never see a politcian and lobbyist sweating to build anything. So why do you need these middlemen than know nothing about construction?

Technology is available to make every road a toll road. No need to tax people that would never use a road.

Funny how it's ONLY government that built highways and most roads. You must need politicians or there would be examples of cultures who built roads without politicians. You're so clueless.

 

In the late 1700s more than 10,000 miles of turnpike were built privately. They were funded by corporations and private investors, the land was typically obtained by giving the land owner stock in the road company. To put things in perspective, the interstate system is just under 50,000 miles and utilizes a significant portion of the pre-existing turnpikes. Some of which have remained privately owned and operated. It wasn't until the late 1800s that the federal government became significantly involved in building infrastructure. States offered subsidies in the early 1800s but  due to the clusterfuck of projects never being built, nearly every state amended their constitution to ban subsidies for road construction. By 1850, it was generally accepted that roads were built privately. That changed after the Civil War and the federal government got heavily involved in subsidizing infrastructure.

If it wasn't for the Republican party and their close ties to railroad companies and their strengthening of the federal government, the US would probably be a country of primarily private roads. The only reason the government is needed to build roads today is the expectation that the government is responsible for building roads. Why would anyone pay for building a road when you can just donate a fraction of the money and get the government to build it for you with other people's money? (and give you a tax break for "economic stimulus" to boot) 

That was a shit and inefficient system that barely could serve horses and could never have handled vehicular traffic. The idea that private citizens could have built the highway network in the US is betrayed by the fact it never happened. A few dirt roads in no way compares to the network of highways, bridges, and tunnels built by governments. There'd be an ocean of liquid tar in the summer and roads would wash away constantly if it were even attempted because citizens and corporations do it on the cheap on average far more than governments do.

 

 Of course they couldn't support cars, cars weren't even being imagined at that time. No doubt our roads won't support future vehicles. They weren't 'dirt roads' they were well maintained paved roads built to the technological standards of the time.

That government did build the highway system is not proof of aanything beyond what happened. By post-WW2 it was the social expectation that such large infrastructure projects were done by government. Given a choice of spending hundreds of millions, or lobbying a few politicians for mere thousands and then using the road for free,  it is clear that there is very little incentive for private entities to build roads. As long as the government keeps building roads into any area corporations want, they will happily pass the bill to government.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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They were dirt roads as

They were dirt roads as paved roads would've been a nightmare for horses.

In every country on Earth it was government who built the roads. Nowhere can you point to as a demonstration of anything else. No rich person or group of rich people ever built a highway network anything like as sophisticated as what governments built 70+ years ago. It takes a government to build a traffic network. It takes a government to explore new frontiers. It takes a government to do anything big scale, because anything less than a government is too inefficient and cheap and scared to lay down the path to the future.

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EXC wrote:Vastet wrote:EXC

EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC is deluded and thinks highways built themselves.

When I see road construction, I see equipment, materials and laborers all from greedy capitalist pigs. I never see a politcian and lobbyist sweating to build anything. So why do you need these middlemen than know nothing about construction?

Technology is available to make every road a toll road. No need to tax people that would never use a road.

Holy fuck, you stupidly think everyone is daddy warbucks!

For the middle class and working poor who live around toll roads, that shit adds up over time YOU STUPID FUCK.

The problem is lobbiests yes, but only ONE party as far as politicians. 

The problem isn't all politicians, the problem is greedy assholes whom bully government to protect tax breaks they do not need.

Privatizing everything only creates centralized wealth. 

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EXC wrote:Vastet wrote:EXC

EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC is deluded and thinks highways built themselves.

When I see road construction, I see equipment, materials and laborers all from greedy capitalist pigs. I never see a politcian and lobbyist sweating to build anything. So why do you need these middlemen than know nothing about construction?

Technology is available to make every road a toll road. No need to tax people that would never use a road.

Holy fuck, you stupidly think everyone is daddy warbucks!

For the middle class and working poor who live around toll roads, that shit adds up over time YOU STUPID FUCK.

The problem is lobbiests yes, but only ONE party as far as politicians. 

The problem isn't all politicians, the problem is greedy assholes whom bully government to protect tax breaks they do not need.

Privatizing everything only creates centralized wealth. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Vastet wrote:They were dirt

Vastet wrote:
They were dirt roads as paved roads would've been a nightmare for horses. In every country on Earth it was government who built the roads. Nowhere can you point to as a demonstration of anything else. No rich person or group of rich people ever built a highway network anything like as sophisticated as what governments built 70+ years ago. It takes a government to build a traffic network. It takes a government to explore new frontiers. It takes a government to do anything big scale, because anything less than a government is too inefficient and cheap and scared to lay down the path to the future.

It's been a long time since we agreed on much. But damned right!

 

The idiots on the right think that the sane are arguing "nanny state" where the government owns all industry. No, that is what Hitler did, and Stalin did. Castro died with an Estimated personal wealth of $800,000,000. China has an even worse pay gap than America does, and workers have even less say. If we left everything up to the rich like EXE would have one believe, we'd all be surfs making pennies a day if that.

Taxes are not robbery. For the same reason you pay for a school with taxes even if you don't have a kid. You do that because the more educated a society is the more stable it is. Same with wages. Same with fire departments and libraries. You don't pay for those things because you personally use them, you pay for them because it makes society more stable. That benefits everyone.

EXE stupidly has it in his head that we argue the end of the private sector. No, we are simply against abuse of power. There is no pragmatic way you could end private business ownership, much less private propery, like a house, no matter the class, on a planet of 7 billion. But it is absurd for anyone to claim they did it all by themselves. If that were true, one could be dropped on a deserted island, never leave it, live there by themselves and build all the things we have today.

The ony valid argument in all this is how to budget taxes, not that taxes exist.

 

Taxes gave us FDR'S "New Deal" after WW2. It gave us the GI bill, and our higway system. Taxes got America to the moon. And what EXE does not want to face, is that when we pay taxes to build anything, that  requires a public/private industry contract most of the time.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Vastet wrote:They were dirt

Vastet wrote:
They were dirt roads as paved roads would've been a nightmare for horses.

Ridiculous. The ancient Romans paved roads- paved roads were much better for wagons and high-traffic areas. Roads were paved with bricks, stones and by the 1800's mostly several layers of crushed rocks over a base layer of large stones, raised above ground level (the Tresaguet method). It was the early 1800's when the macadam process was invented to solve the problems of water penetrating roads and damaging the paving.  Macadam roads had a layer of small crushed rocks and dust that were compressed together using iron rollers, then rock dust and water was used to fill the holes creating a much smoother surface when it dried, and protecting the under layers from frost damage. For the day, these roads were state-of-the-art, and very expensive to build. For areas that were lower traffic and could not justify the expense, turnpike companies built plank roads (especially up in Canada). Historians have found substantial evidence that the turnpikes were substantailly higher quality and preferred by people at the time compared to government built roads like the National Road, which was 3 times the price per mile and never did reach the Mississippi as originally intended. The maintenance costs became too great and the road was handed to the states. 

Quote:

In every country on Earth it was government who built the roads.

In every country on Earth you will find at least some roads that were built privately. In modern nationalist countries, it is genarlly accepted that it is the government's responsibility to build roads. There is no particular reason why it must be. Lacking a government to build a road, merchants have always found a way to have them built. For much of human history, governments were poor, incompetent, corrupt or simply didn't give a flying fuck about roads outside of wherever they intended to send their military.

Do you seriously think that Walmart isn't going to build a road to get to their store if they didn't have the option of having some local government pay for it for them?

Quote:

No rich person or group of rich people ever built a highway network anything like as sophisticated as what governments built 70+ years ago.

Of course not, 70 years ago, the government was a blank check. Why would someone pay for it, when they had a government more than willing to pay them three times the price to build it? Spend $300 million to build a road system yourself, or have Uncle Sam pay you $1 billion to build it. Easy choice for a businessman. The much larger question is, if the government was unable or unwilling to build a freeway system, would some enterprising business have built it? Almost certainly, there has been a significant amount of money generated by it. The freeway system was a product of need due to the dramatic improvements in car technology.

If you look at why the Turnpike companies failed, the primary causes were regulations that forced them to space out toll booths and limitations on who they were allowed to charge. There were so many exceptions and it was so easy to simply go offroad to avoid a toll that few actually paid it. Add in the immense cost of manning the toll stations and few turnpikes made a profit. Even then, the companies remained capable of raising money from new investors who did not expect to make money directly, but benefited from the traffic coming to their town. With modern technology, collecting tolls is easy and cheap. A simple smartphone app can do the trick or a pass that can be read at 60 mph is common on modern toll roads. Violators have their pictures taken and money is collected later with minimal enforcement costs.

The only real barrier to private roads today is the motivation. Why build a road when I can just petition the local government, throw a few thousand dollars around and more often than not, they will take your money to build the road for me? When you provide companies the option of having it built for nearly free, why would you expect them to do anything else?

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:For the middle

Brian37 wrote:

For the middle class and working poor who live around toll roads, that shit adds up over time YOU STUPID FUCK.

Without tolls you are still paying for it you stupid fuck. You simply pay for it indirectly through things like gas taxes. Whether it comes out of your pocket at a certain mile maker or at the gas station you inevitably have to fill up at makes little difference. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:Vastet

Brian37 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
They were dirt roads as paved roads would've been a nightmare for horses. In every country on Earth it was government who built the roads. Nowhere can you point to as a demonstration of anything else. No rich person or group of rich people ever built a highway network anything like as sophisticated as what governments built 70+ years ago. It takes a government to build a traffic network. It takes a government to explore new frontiers. It takes a government to do anything big scale, because anything less than a government is too inefficient and cheap and scared to lay down the path to the future.

It's been a long time since we agreed on much. But damned right!

 

The idiots on the right think that the sane are arguing "nanny state" where the government owns all industry. No, that is what Hitler did, and Stalin did. Castro died with an Estimated personal wealth of $800,000,000. China has an even worse pay gap than America does, and workers have even less say. If we left everything up to the rich like EXE would have one believe, we'd all be surfs making pennies a day if that.

Taxes are not robbery. For the same reason you pay for a school with taxes even if you don't have a kid. You do that because the more educated a society is the more stable it is. Same with wages. Same with fire departments and libraries. You don't pay for those things because you personally use them, you pay for them because it makes society more stable. That benefits everyone.

EXE stupidly has it in his head that we argue the end of the private sector. No, we are simply against abuse of power. There is no pragmatic way you could end private business ownership, much less private propery, like a house, no matter the class, on a planet of 7 billion. But it is absurd for anyone to claim they did it all by themselves. If that were true, one could be dropped on a deserted island, never leave it, live there by themselves and build all the things we have today.

The ony valid argument in all this is how to budget taxes, not that taxes exist.

 

Taxes gave us FDR'S "New Deal" after WW2. It gave us the GI bill, and our higway system. Taxes got America to the moon. And what EXE does not want to face, is that when we pay taxes to build anything, that  requires a public/private industry contract most of the time.

 

You don't have a fucking clue what Hitler did, what Stalin did, what China is like, or what a serf is.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 @Vastet, Brian agrees with

 @Vastet, Brian agrees with you, therefore I win this round.  


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Beyond Saving wrote:Vastet

Beyond Saving wrote:

Vastet wrote:
They were dirt roads as paved roads would've been a nightmare for horses.

Ridiculous. The ancient Romans paved roads- paved roads were much better for wagons and high-traffic areas. Roads were paved with bricks, stones and by the 1800's mostly several layers of crushed rocks over a base layer of large stones, raised above ground level (the Tresaguet method). It was the early 1800's when the macadam process was invented to solve the problems of water penetrating roads and damaging the paving.

Ridiculous. Any kind of pavement is horrible for horses, and there certainly wouldn't have been any effort to pave roads in North America when the primary method of travel was horseback. Also, Rome's roads were built by the government of Rome.

Beyond Saving wrote:

Macadam roads had a layer of small crushed rocks and dust that were compressed together using iron rollers, then rock dust and water was used to fill the holes creating a much smoother surface when it dried, and protecting the under layers from frost damage. For the day, these roads were state-of-the-art, and very expensive to build. For areas that were lower traffic and could not justify the expense, turnpike companies built plank roads (especially up in Canada). Historians have found substantial evidence that the turnpikes were substantailly higher quality and preferred by people at the time compared to government built roads like the National Road, which was 3 times the price per mile and never did reach the Mississippi as originally intended. The maintenance costs became too great and the road was handed to the states.

Dirt roads. Advanced dirt roads, but still dirt roads.

Beyond Saving wrote:
In every country on Earth you will find at least some roads that were built privately. In modern nationalist countries, it is genarlly accepted that it is the government's responsibility to build roads. There is no particular reason why it must be. Lacking a government to build a road, merchants have always found a way to have them built. For much of human history, governments were poor, incompetent, corrupt or simply didn't give a flying fuck about roads outside of wherever they intended to send their military.

In every country on Earth you can also find game trails created by wildlife, which is effectively exactly what individuals have done. Woop de doo. There is and has never been a country where the roads were built by individuals and corporations. It is always government. Individuals and corporations may build A road, but they never build more than THEY need. Which means they certainly aren't going to build roads for everyone to take advantage of, which leaves only government.

Beyond Saving wrote:
Do you seriously think that Walmart isn't going to build a road to get to their store if they didn't have the option of having some local government pay for it for them?

Do you seriously think Walmart would build a road and a store instead of just building a store on a pre-existing road if given a choice? And why shouldn't the government pay to build a road if Walmart pays taxes that go towards building and maintaining roads?

Beyond Saving wrote:
Of course not, 70 years ago, the government was a blank check. Why would someone pay for it, when they had a government more than willing to pay them three times the price to build it? Spend $300 million to build a road system yourself, or have Uncle Sam pay you $1 billion to build it. Easy choice for a businessman.

As it wasn't until after WW2 that the government fully took over and directed the construction of a highway network, and as the rich and corporations had had more than 200 years to build a road network before that, it's clear that only the government was willing and able to build a highway network. 

Beyond Saving wrote:
The much larger question is, if the government was unable or unwilling to build a freeway system, would some enterprising business have built it? Almost certainly, there has been a significant amount of money generated by it. The freeway system was a product of need due to the dramatic improvements in car technology.

Yet it didn't happen, so no it wouldn't have happened. No business is willing to put in the investment for something as big as a national road network because they have no idea what the risks are, what the costs will be, or what return on investment they can expect. The highway system generated revenue after it was already built, but there was no way to tell that before it was built. Hence, noone built one. 

Beyond Saving wrote:
If you look at why the Turnpike companies failed, the primary causes were regulations that forced them to space out toll booths and limitations on who they were allowed to charge. There were so many exceptions and it was so easy to simply go offroad to avoid a toll that few actually paid it.

So in other words their own incompetence killed them, because they couldn't even ensure people wouldn't just skip by the tolls. If regulations forced them to space booths out, then they were actually forced to save on labour and maintenance costs by those regulations. Which means they were extremely incompetent. Had everything yet still failed miserably.

Beyond Saving wrote:
Add in the immense cost of manning the toll stations and few turnpikes made a profit. Even then, the companies remained capable of raising money from new investors who did not expect to make money directly, but benefited from the traffic coming to their town. With modern technology, collecting tolls is easy and cheap. A simple smartphone app can do the trick or a pass that can be read at 60 mph is common on modern toll roads. Violators have their pictures taken and money is collected later with minimal enforcement costs.

Smartphones wouldn't exist without multiple government programs that allow them to exist, from the internet to NASA. Modern technology IN GENERAL wouldn't exist without government investment, so you don't get to use modern technology as if it were a cure all for the incompetence and unwillingness of the rich in building a road network.

Beyond Saving wrote:
The only real barrier to private roads today is the motivation. Why build a road when I can just petition the local government, throw a few thousand dollars around and more often than not, they will take your money to build the road for me? When you provide companies the option of having it built for nearly free, why would you expect them to do anything else?

The motivation was never there for corporations, only for the government. Which is why only the government did it.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Beyond Saving wrote:

 @Vastet, Brian agrees with you, therefore I win this round.  

 

Even a broken clock is correct once or twice in 1440 minutes. I'd say that average applies equally to Brian. Eye-wink

 

Side note, I've missed talking to someone I disagree with yet obviously has a brain and knows how to use it. Please don't leave me. > >

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.