Fake Martial Arts

digitalbeachbum
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Fake Martial Arts

When I went to China for three weeks to study Martial Arts, I met a lot of "masters" who claimed to do special things with their Chi.

I saw bending of metal swords, smashing bricks on their heads, laying down on a bed of nails.

I know that the tricks in Martial Arts is no different than the con-artist who tricks people with magic tricks.

This video is interesting. One scene is a "master" who claims he can knock people over with out touching them. He gets in to a fight with an MMA fighter who quickly knocks the shithead down on the ground and makes his mouth bleed.

Another guy claims he can turn his skin in to armor, but he ends up slicing up his arm and bleeds.

https://youtu.be/kaUrvqJqJMs

Believing in religion is no different. People go to faith healers and claim they were healed, but many times they die, being told they didn't have enough faith.

Others were never really sick or they were sick but recovered naturally.


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Phonies

I also dabbled in hand to hand whilst at 29 Plams ca. Example that they're phony. Consider the foot punch that you see in the movies and on TV. Very impressive right. But, that move leaves one open to getting their nuts relocated to under their chin. Anyone (as you know) can see from the time the skip and or the jump is made to bring the foot around (while in mid air mind you) is more then enough time for an opponent to see it coming. The opponent would have to be at the shopping mall to have his attention diverted to buying something---and---- looking the other way at that, for that move to work on an expeienced HH combatsman. Ok for the movies but not in real situations. And, the physics of it don't work either.

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Old Seer wrote:I also

Old Seer wrote:

I also dabbled in hand to hand whilst at 29 Plams ca. Example that they're phony. Consider the foot punch that you see in the movies and on TV. Very impressive right. But, that move leaves one open to getting their nuts relocated to under their chin. Anyone (as you know) can see from the time the skip and or the jump is made to bring the foot around (while in mid air mind you) is more then enough time for an opponent to see it coming. The opponent would have to be at the shopping mall to have his attention diverted to buying something---and---- looking the other way at that, for that move to work on an expeienced HH combatsman. Ok for the movies but not in real situations. And, the physics of it don't work either.

It isn't martial arts which are fake. It's the people who are trying to sell something with out having actual knowledge of it.

These guys, the ones in the video, their are fake because they are trying to prove something supernatural exists.

There is nothing supernatural about Martial Arts. Bruce Lee is a good example of what I mean. It trained and trained and not just his body. He trianed his mind.

This is why he had the one inch punch the packed a nice wallop on whom ever he hit.


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Yup

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

I also dabbled in hand to hand whilst at 29 Plams ca. Example that they're phony. Consider the foot punch that you see in the movies and on TV. Very impressive right. But, that move leaves one open to getting their nuts relocated to under their chin. Anyone (as you know) can see from the time the skip and or the jump is made to bring the foot around (while in mid air mind you) is more then enough time for an opponent to see it coming. The opponent would have to be at the shopping mall to have his attention diverted to buying something---and---- looking the other way at that, for that move to work on an expeienced HH combatsman. Ok for the movies but not in real situations. And, the physics of it don't work either.

It isn't martial arts which are fake. It's the people who are trying to sell something with out having actual knowledge of it.

These guys, the ones in the video, their are fake because they are trying to prove something supernatural exists.

There is nothing supernatural about Martial Arts. Bruce Lee is a good example of what I mean. It trained and trained and not just his body. He trianed his mind.

This is why he had the one inch punch the packed a nice wallop on whom ever he hit.

Thats what I was refering to, the videio you posted. I know for a fact Fernando A Pansoy was not a phony. It isn't always brute force that does the works. The right place with the right technique---and lots of training with the punch buckets with sand or beans. I even heard of guys breaking the middle fingers several times to shorten them. .  As for me, I didn't even want a tatoo.

 

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Evidence shows

no deadly force was applied.

 

to me      

BERKELEY, California (Reuters) U.S. Army Special Forces Master Sergeant John Martin was arrested in connection with an altercation involving an estimated 100 anti-fascist protesters.
Aerial footage shows Master Sergeant Martin involved in a violent melee which ended in 53 anti-fascist protesters in the hospitals with 24 of them listed in critical condition.
The injured personnel were brought to Alta Bates Summit Medical Center Berkeley Campus.

According to Berkeley authorities, the incident started when Master Sergeant Martin was visiting the Berkeley campus to speak at a rally for wounded warriors. According to several eyewitnesses, as Master Sergeant Martin was exiting the vehicle he was immediately assaulted by an estimated 100 demonstrators who were there to protest the involvement of the United States military in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Campus police were unable to quell the violent skirmish due to the amount of demonstrators assaulting the Special Forces Soldier. One campus officer, speaking on the condition of anonymity, was shocked by the number of people who were injured by Master Sergeant’s ability to defend himself. The officer was more involved with extracting the numerous injured demonstrators out of the destructive path of Master Sergeant Martin.

“The City of Berkeley Police Department is a small to medium-size department,” he said. “Our police department total is 176. I can tell you most of that 176 responded here today.”

According to the Berkeley campus police report 26 of the 100 estimated demonstrators were arrested. Their charges ranged from battery on a law enforcement officer to inciting a riot to resisting police with violence, according to their arrest reports. One was charged with marijuana possession.
Master Sergeant Martin was part of the 26 arrested and was segregated at the Berkeley Police Department.

The Berkeley Progressive Coalition, which organized the protest, has scheduled a second demonstration beginning at noon Saturday outside the Superior Court of CA, County of Alameda – Berkeley Courthouse. There protesters will call for the release of those jailed Friday.
The Chief of the Berkeley Police Department spoke to reporters and stated Master Sergeant Martin will not be charged with any offenses related to today’s incident. He states, “Master Sergeant Martin was simply defending himself against a group of demonstrators who thought he was an easy target.” As other news agencies pressed and asked the Chief of Police if he would consider, and classify Master Sergeant Martin’s Special Forces training as the use of “deadly force?” The Chief eloquently replied, “We have high hopes that Master Sergeant Martin would consider our proposition of being the lead hand-to-hand instructor for our police department when he retires next year.”
Master Sergeant Martin was observed leaving the police station from a side entrance in an unmarked police car and was taken out the back gate of the police department.

The Department of the Army Special Forces spokesman from the Pentagon, LTC Richard Cabeza, said they were looking into the incident as a teaching point to other Special Forces Soldiers on how to defend themselves in similar situations and he will be consider for a soldiers medal due to being in harms way and potentially saving the lives of several demonstrators from getting killed by his own hands.

Snowflakes .........be careful!

 

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Batman.

Batman.

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I've seen the articles on

I've seen the articles on this incident. Stupidity on both sides. They had one guy hitting a woman with a bike lock. Another skinhead punched a woman in the face. There were rocks and bottles being thrown.

Ignorance.

And your "snowflake" comment works both ways.

 

 


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That's an

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I've seen the articles on this incident. Stupidity on both sides. They had one guy hitting a woman with a bike lock. Another skinhead punched a woman in the face. There were rocks and bottles being thrown.

Ignorance.

And your "snowflake" comment works both ways.

 

 

an email from one of my brothers.

 

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Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I've seen the articles on this incident. Stupidity on both sides. They had one guy hitting a woman with a bike lock. Another skinhead punched a woman in the face. There were rocks and bottles being thrown.

Ignorance.

And your "snowflake" comment works both ways.

an email from one of my brothers.

Doesn't change things about the situation.


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The analygy

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I've seen the articles on this incident. Stupidity on both sides. They had one guy hitting a woman with a bike lock. Another skinhead punched a woman in the face. There were rocks and bottles being thrown.

Ignorance.

And your "snowflake" comment works both ways.

an email from one of my brothers.

Doesn't change things about the situation.

isn't mine, I don't know what snowflake means in this application. Smiling

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digitalbeachbum
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Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I've seen the articles on this incident. Stupidity on both sides. They had one guy hitting a woman with a bike lock. Another skinhead punched a woman in the face. There were rocks and bottles being thrown.

Ignorance.

And your "snowflake" comment works both ways.

an email from one of my brothers.

Doesn't change things about the situation.

isn't mine, I don't know what snowflake means in this application. Smiling

Ah


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Most all man-made things in

Most all man-made things in the world are a scam or partial scam. I've learned to just assume something is a scam until I see evidence to the contrary. A consequence of living in an extremely competitive world. Look at this MB, purports to be 'rational responders', but it has so many comments that are anything but that.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Most all man-made

EXC wrote:

Most all man-made things in the world are a scam or partial scam. I've learned to just assume something is a scam until I see evidence to the contrary. A consequence of living in an extremely competitive world. Look at this MB, purports to be 'rational responders', but it has so many comments that are anything but that.

As usual, EXC's lies are blatant, ridiculous, and obvious. Also pathetic and hypocritical.

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 What are you calling a

 What are you calling a "foot punch" ?

In modern combat sports it's just called a front push kick. In Muay Thai where it is part of the fighter's everyday training it's called a "teep"

 

If you think it's easy to block then you have never been forced to defend yourself from someone who has dedicated themselves to that very devastating strike.  

 

 If you want to see what it looks like then Google the highlite videos of Muay Thai fighters like Rob Kaman, Ramon Dekkars, 

Baukaw Por Pramuk, Melchor Menor or the devastating UFC straw weight fighter from Poland named Joanna Jederzjczyk.

 

All these professional fighters are on film lifting their foot off the mat and jamming it into the torsos and faces of their equally well trained opponents who already knew to expect it.


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 What are you calling a

 What are you calling a "foot punch" ?

In modern combat sports it's just called a front push kick. In Muay Thai where it is part of the fighter's everyday training it's called a "teep"

 

If you think it's easy to block then you have never been forced to defend yourself from someone who has dedicated themselves to that very devastating strike.  

 

 If you want to see what it looks like then Google the highlite videos of Muay Thai fighters like Rob Kaman, Ramon Dekkars, 

Baukaw Por Pramuk, Melchor Menor or the devastating UFC straw weight fighter from Poland named Joanna Jederzjczyk.

 

All these professional fighters are on film lifting their foot off the mat and jamming it into the torsos and faces of their equally well trained opponents who already knew to expect it.


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Well

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 What are you calling a "foot punch" ?

In modern combat sports it's just called a front push kick. In Muay Thai where it is part of the fighter's everyday training it's called a "teep"

 

If you think it's easy to block then you have never been forced to defend yourself from someone who has dedicated themselves to that very devastating strike.  

 

 If you want to see what it looks like then Google the highlite videos of Muay Thai fighters like Rob Kaman, Ramon Dekkars, 

Baukaw Por Pramuk, Melchor Menor or the devastating UFC straw weight fighter from Poland named Joanna Jederzjczyk.

 

All these professional fighters are on film lifting their foot off the mat and jamming it into the torsos and faces of their equally well trained opponents who already knew to expect it.

not from what I've seen, The moment that foot leaves the deck to one's chest, face or anywhere above the waist, the initiator is a gonner. It's a show kick/ punch only and exclusivly. I proved it behind the back of the bank in my home town when I was 15, and challeged by a 19 year old trying to kick me in the middlings.  We was on his stomah and face in less the 1.5 seconds. In anoter half second I had him on the ground in a full body stretch from behind. His dad showed up and  to break up the fight. Out of respect for an elder I let the fella go---intact. It didn't work for him. No, I'm not a great martial arts combatant. I don't have a belt in anything except to hold up my trousers. 

If as you say--it is done regularly by those types then someone isn't trained as they claim. People of that skill become evenly matched and those tricks can't work as both are equal in ability. Foot to face is farther then hand to face. One being kicked isn't necessairly automatically slower then the one kicking. That means that when its the kicked ones turn to kick the previous kicker he somehow became faster and the second guy can't avoid being kicked.

 

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 If your opinion is only

 If your opinion is only based upon what you have "seen" then I know that you failed to investigate any of the well known fighters that I listed for you. That's your problem not mine.

In my own defense all of the Muay Thai fighters and  MMA fighters that I mentioned have all of their fights recorded on video for posterity and their audience is world wide. They are not obscure unknowns who fight in someone's garage or back ally but in stadiums filled with tens of thousand of people. They all have incontravertible  evidence to support their claims while you have nothing but anecdotes from the Eisenhower era that can't be proven.

Google video of Ramon Dekkars or Joanna J. If you still think that you would prevail againt these fighters and their sense of timing and reflexes well then feel free to climb into the ring and prove it.

 

 


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I don't mean to offend-but

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 If your opinion is only based upon what you have "seen" then I know that you failed to investigate any of the well known fighters that I listed for you. That's your problem not mine.

In my own defense all of the Muay Thai fighters and  MMA fighters that I mentioned have all of their fights recorded on video for posterity and their audience is world wide. They are not obscure unknowns who fight in someone's garage or back ally but in stadiums filled with tens of thousand of people. They all have incontravertible  evidence to support their claims while you have nothing but anecdotes from the Eisenhower era that can't be proven.

Google video of Ramon Dekkars or Joanna J. If you still think that you would prevail againt these fighters and their sense of timing and reflexes well then feel free to climb into the ring and prove it.

 

 

according to your post they a fairly equal in ability. But what you,re saying is---they are all good on the attack but terrible on defense. Don't you suppose that they wouls also be highly adept in defending fron such a manuver as initiating one. It's a show thing. Thats according to Fernando A Panzoy, San Francisco CA, my trainer and partner. If you think I'm kidding look up his obit on line--if it's still there, ans read what one of his grand kids say. His family are from the Island of Cebu, Philipenes. His dad Probo, was one of the original resistanc efighter there in WW II. His advice---When you bow to another man be aware that you are in optimal postition to be kicked in the face.

 

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If a move has the potential

If a move has the potential to end a fight, no matter how flashy it may be, it is not a show move. A show move is what you see in movies, not in a UFC ring. If a professional fighter uses a move even semi-regularly, it cannot be a show move, by definition.

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Aha.

Vastet wrote:
If a move has the potential to end a fight, no matter how flashy it may be, it is not a show move. A show move is what you see in movies, not in a UFC ring. If a professional fighter uses a move even semi-regularly, it cannot be a show move, by definition.
That clarifys that. You're talking sport if I understand you correctly. I couldn't understand how they could have a match without someone going to the morgue or hospital.

 

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Old Seer wrote:You're

Old Seer wrote:

You're talking sport if I understand you correctly. I couldn't understand how they could have a match without someone going to the morgue or hospital.

 

 

  Jesus Christ you're thick. MMA fighters  and kick boxers go to the hospital all the time.  When they suffer concussions they are forced to undergo a medical suspension until they are cleared to fight again. 

 

There are ringside doctors for a reason.

 

Please ....just stop. You clearly are not a person who has the remotest idea what you are talking about.


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The ultmate analysis is.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

You're talking sport if I understand you correctly. I couldn't understand how they could have a match without someone going to the morgue or hospital.

 

 

  Jesus Christ you're thick. MMA fighters  and kick boxers go to the hospital all the time.  When they suffer concussions they are forced to undergo a medical suspension until they are cleared to fight again. 

 

There are ringside doctors for a reason.

 

Please ....just stop. You clearly are not a person who has the remotest idea what you are talking about.

You're talker sport. Hand to hand is a process of 1---disabling an attacker. 2--kill the attacker immediatly. What you have there is the same as anyother sport.

football guys go to the hospital to, so do Wrestlers. But--it's still sport. Sport is to beat the other guy without killing him/them, except for firearm sports where the sport incorporates hunting (or other) and the killing itself, because the killing is allowed. You're right--I don't know anything about your sport, But I do know about killing. I'm not a compeditor or sportsman, I'm akiller when needs be. Smiling I'd say, you're not understanding me. Smiling

Vastet is correct, (I missunderstood his post, and I'm not saying he agrees with me) any move that gets the job done is valid.

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Vastet wrote:EXC wrote:Most

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:

Most all man-made things in the world are a scam or partial scam. I've learned to just assume something is a scam until I see evidence to the contrary. A consequence of living in an extremely competitive world. Look at this MB, purports to be 'rational responders', but it has so many comments that are anything but that.

As usual, EXC's lies are blatant, ridiculous, and obvious. Also pathetic and hypocritical.

Attack the messenger, not the message. A favorite tactic of all scam artists.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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 Jesus Christ, now you're

 Jesus Christ, now you're babbling about what a killer you are. Who cares ?

 

Do you watch the news ? People kill each other every day. 

 

I was discussing the utility of a front push kick in martial arts and now suddenly you're reliving your former glory days.

 

LOL, why did I even try ? 

 

 

 

 

 


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I think this thread is about

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 Jesus Christ, now you're babbling about what a killer you are. Who cares ?

 

Do you watch the news ? People kill each other every day. 

 

I was discussing the utility of a front push kick in martial arts and now suddenly you're reliving your former glory days.

 

LOL, why did I even try ? 

 

 

 

 

 

fake martial arts. Is that what you're discussing or am I. I know the difference. I've been there. In order for you to understand I have to give you backgroung from where I'm coming from or what I know from experience. What are you trying to convince me of. I have no idea.

A frontal push kick or whatever you said is a valid move or proceedure--but --it's not considered an good or effective move in actual situations. In order (as I said and I don't know what kick boxing had to do with this) one has to be asleep for it work from an attacker.  I understand it to be considered a "foot punch". So, it's called something different today, but that doesn't make it different. I accept your label, discription, or name of what you call it, I've had nothing against that. To me, hand to hand combat is not a sport. Its initial design and intent is self defence, not attack. I'm not reliving my former days, I'm showing I have a knowing from experience.

 If the kick boxers etc (I'm not familiar with--I've heard of it and seen a little of it---I'm not impressed so I don't care to watch it ) aren't diabling or killing their attackers and on we go---then it's not being used for the purpose it's originally intended for--as far as I know. Then, it has to be for show.

 

a 5/8 in X 14in X 5 in of reasonable quality pine board is stronger then any bone in anyone's body accept the femur, on ocassion. There is no one that can take a comparable punch to break it, in the face, head or sternum, and suvive it.  In kick boxing--they cannot possibly be applying such force without killing each other. That then--religates to the OP, is kick boxing and other martial arts as you describe --fake or real. All my bragging --if that's what you want to rate it as is let you know --I know, from experiance that the sport of kick boxing and other, is either fake or not. In this case I served the mandates of the OP.

 

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EXC wrote:Vastet wrote:EXC

EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:

Most all man-made things in the world are a scam or partial scam. I've learned to just assume something is a scam until I see evidence to the contrary. A consequence of living in an extremely competitive world. Look at this MB, purports to be 'rational responders', but it has so many comments that are anything but that.

As usual, EXC's lies are blatant, ridiculous, and obvious. Also pathetic and hypocritical.

Attack the messenger, not the message. A favorite tactic of all scam artists.

When I've already destroyed the message, attacking the lying scam artist is all that remains.

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 I was willing to do what

 I was willing to do what you were not,  which was use the internet to investigate you claim.

All that can be confirmed about Mr. Pansoy is that he is now deceased.  Also, he broke apple crates and bricks which means.... he broke apple crates and bricks.

That's very impressive.

 

Melchor Menor is a Filipino American who competes as a Muay Thai fighter.  He breaks baseball bats with his shins.

It's on Youtube. 

 

 


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With respect to you.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 I was willing to do what you were not,  which was use the internet to investigate you claim.

All that can be confirmed about Mr. Pansoy is that he is now deceased.  Also, he broke apple crates and bricks which means.... he broke apple crates and bricks.

That's very impressive.

 

Melchor Menor is a Filipino American who competes as a Muay Thai fighter.  He breaks baseball bats with his shins.

It's on Youtube. 

 

 

I did go online to look at things. I didn't look at any of the contestants that you mentioned becasue I'm not familiar with them. I also looked up hand to hand etc, and found not much has changed since my day. I use Fernando's obit to show we've been there and I'm not making things up. My hand to hand is for the battle field and not for sport. There-in lies the difference between our inputs and understandings. I have no doubt the man you mention can break a bat with his shins, but, he has developed an accomodation for that over time and practice. Juat he same has my hands no longer show the effects of such use , as over time the hands return to normal. I still have a slightly larges portion on my right hand but today that's becasue of being right handed. I cannot break a apple crate end today as I could in younger times. Today my hand would turn to dust doing such a thing, and being Smiling I still need it I'll have to leave such things for bygone years. 

It still remains, that if the sport you support were as intended as battlefield hand to hand is, someone would be dead or an invalid for life. While I agree that  kick boxing can be used as a defence or attack method it can be effective, and produce appropreate damage on a body to disable. But as I see and understand it, it is a sport no different then boxing, football, or basketball. Actual hand to hand is not for sport. Consider, military hand to hand is not for sport, it's the real deal.

 

 

 

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Old Seer wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 I was willing to do what you were not,  which was use the internet to investigate you Mr. Pansoy is that he is now deceased.  Also, he broke apple crates and bricks which means.... he broke apple crates and bricks.

That's very impressive.

 

Melchor Menor is a Filipino American who competes as a Muay Thai fighter.  He breaks baseball bats with his shins.

It's on Youtube. 

 

 

I did go online to look at things. I didn't look at any of the contestants that you mentioned becasue I'm not familiar with them. I also looked up hand to hand etc, and found not much has changed since my day. I use Fernando's obit to show we've been there and I'm not making things up. My hand to hand is for the battle field and not for sport. There-in lies the difference between our inputs and understandings. I have no doubt the man you mention can break a bat with his shins, but, he has developed an accomodation for that over time and practice. Juat he same has my hands no longer show the effects of such use , as over time the hands return to normal. I still have a slightly larges portion on my right hand but today that's becasue of being right handed. I cannot break a apple crate end today as I could in younger times. Today my hand would turn to dust doing such a thing, and being Smiling I still need it I'll have to leave such things for bygone years. 

It still remains, that if the sport you support were as intended as battlefield hand to hand is, someone would be dead or an invalid for life. While I agree that  kick boxing can be used as a defence or attack method it can be effective, and produce appropreate damage on a body to disable. But as I see and understand it, it is a sport no different then boxing, football, or basketball. Actual hand to hand is not for sport. Consider, military hand to hand is not for sport, it's the real deal.

 

 

 

Muay Boran is the "non-sport" hand to hand martial art that was employed by the Thai military.  Muay Thai is the  "sport"

derivative. 

 

 Strange that you still consider Muay Thai such a pussified activity. When I took Muay Thai here in Texas ( my teacher was a Laotian ) no one could compete in a sanctioned fight using Thai rules because the use of elbows to the face and head is not permitted by the sanctioning bodies in Texas. Any use of elbows to an  opponents unprotected head  and the fight would be unofficial and  the results not recognized.

If one of our students wanted to officially compete according to Thai rules  ( elbows) the nearest state that would recognize the fight as legitimate was Oklahoma. 

 

Funny thing, a married couple  had both just begun training with us and were obviously newbies. The wife asked my instructor "Do people get hurt in Muay Thai ?"  He laughed "People die in Muay Thai."

 

BTW, my former instructor was a CIDG  fighter during the war in Vietnam.

 

 


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 I was willing to do what you were not,  which was use the internet to investigate you Mr. Pansoy is that he is now deceased.  Also, he broke apple crates and bricks which means.... he broke apple crates and bricks.

That's very impressive.

 

Melchor Menor is a Filipino American who competes as a Muay Thai fighter.  He breaks baseball bats with his shins.

It's on Youtube. 

 

 

I did go online to look at things. I didn't look at any of the contestants that you mentioned becasue I'm not familiar with them. I also looked up hand to hand etc, and found not much has changed since my day. I use Fernando's obit to show we've been there and I'm not making things up. My hand to hand is for the battle field and not for sport. There-in lies the difference between our inputs and understandings. I have no doubt the man you mention can break a bat with his shins, but, he has developed an accomodation for that over time and practice. Juat he same has my hands no longer show the effects of such use , as over time the hands return to normal. I still have a slightly larges portion on my right hand but today that's becasue of being right handed. I cannot break a apple crate end today as I could in younger times. Today my hand would turn to dust doing such a thing, and being Smiling I still need it I'll have to leave such things for bygone years. 

It still remains, that if the sport you support were as intended as battlefield hand to hand is, someone would be dead or an invalid for life. While I agree that  kick boxing can be used as a defence or attack method it can be effective, and produce appropreate damage on a body to disable. But as I see and understand it, it is a sport no different then boxing, football, or basketball. Actual hand to hand is not for sport. Consider, military hand to hand is not for sport, it's the real deal.

 

 

 

Muay Boran is the "non-sport" hand to hand martial art that was employed by the Thai military.  Muay Thai is the  "sport"

derivative. 

 

 Strange that you still consider Muay Thai such a pussified activity. When I took Muay Thai here in Texas ( my teacher was a Laotian ) no one could compete in a sanctioned fight using Thai rules because the use of elbows to the face and head is not permitted by the sanctioning bodies in Texas. Any use of elbows to an  opponents unprotected head  and the fight would be unofficial and  the results not recognized.

If one of our students wanted to officially compete according to Thai rules  ( elbows) the nearest state that would recognize the fight as legitimate was Oklahoma. 

 

Funny thing, a married couple  had both just begun training with us and were obviously newbies. The wife asked my instructor "Do people get hurt in Muay Thai ?"  He laughed "People die in Muay Thai."

 

BTW, my former instructor was a CIDG  fighter during the war in Vietnam.

 

 

degrade. I don't understand you apparently. Let's take alook. If you go back to my post you'll see that I pointed to your sport as being a ligitimate means of combat. However, I can't see what that has to do with comparing it to hand to hand. Hand to hand , as I said is a defensive operation not an attack. In hand to hand it is taught an attaker is at the disadvantage. An atacker has a plan, the defender knows that and will attempt to foil the plan. The defender has no plan, and must react effectivly to moves an proceedure of the attacker--which includes blocking kicks. I could not kick Fernado, and Fernado could not kick me. In hand to hand there is no sport, it's serious business. There are hand to hand matches and demonstrations of course. In my instructions there was no plan of attack, as hand to hand was not ment for attack. Prctice always was about defense not offense. If there was any offense it was "after" the defender had control of the attaker. I've never practiced offencive hand to hand, because. that's not what it was about. GHand to hand has no round 1 or round 2 etc ( and there probably isn't in kick boxing)

Looking at images on line I cannot see how a kick boxer could ever outdo a competent hand to hander. The Kickers foot would never get back to the deck. apparently in Kick boxing the contestants aren't allowed to grab the opponent. But that's not how it works in Hand to hand. So, If a kick boxers foot cannot be grabbed, and I can plainly see that it can be blocked, and if a hand to hander were allowed to secure the foot--which is the object of hand to hand, then, How does a kick boxer win. He's on the mat on his abdomin, face down.

The kick boxer would have to be so fast that the hander is unable to see it coming---but that what hand to hand is all about--to defeat such moves and dispacth the attaker.   That means that hand to hand and kick boxing are two very different things. And no, I don't mean to pussify it becasue I don't pussify regular boxing or football etc. These are contact sports and winning is done by points I assume. Hand to hands has no points, unless done for sport.

 

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ProzacDeathWish wrote: I was

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

I was willing to do what you were not,  which was use the internet to investigate you claim.

All that can be confirmed about Mr. Pansoy is that he is now deceased.  Also, he broke apple crates and bricks which means.... he broke apple crates and bricks.

That's very impressive.

 

Melchor Menor is a Filipino American who competes as a Muay Thai fighter.  He breaks baseball bats with his shins.

It's on Youtube. 

I'm not impressed, well sort of, but I'm not in awe.

The bats do not look to be "MLB" material. MLB bats are made from woods which are at least 1,450 lbf

Cheap bats are made from Eastern Yellow Pine (380 lbf) or some other soft wood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janka_hardness_test

Also, I learned from martial artists in China that to prepare for a "demo" they do things like heat up metal, steam wood, make bricks from brittle material or with no straw.

I'm never impressed with those types of demostrations. They are gimmicks.

Show me a Bruce Lee demo or show me an Morihei Ueshiba demo. That's the shit.

 


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Old Seer wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 I was willing to do what you were not,  which was use the internet to investigate you Mr. Pansoy is that he is now deceased.  Also, he broke apple crates and bricks which means.... he broke apple crates and bricks.

That's very impressive.

 

Melchor Menor is a Filipino American who competes as a Muay Thai fighter.  He breaks baseball bats with his shins.

It's on Youtube. 

 

 

I did go online to look at things. I didn't look at any of the contestants that you mentioned becasue I'm not familiar with them. I also looked up hand to hand etc, and found not much has changed since my day. I use Fernando's obit to show we've been there and I'm not making things up. My hand to hand is for the battle field and not for sport. There-in lies the difference between our inputs and understandings. I have no doubt the man you mention can break a bat with his shins, but, he has developed an accomodation for that over time and practice. Juat he same has my hands no longer show the effects of such use , as over time the hands return to normal. I still have a slightly larges portion on my right hand but today that's becasue of being right handed. I cannot break a apple crate end today as I could in younger times. Today my hand would turn to dust doing such a thing, and being Smiling I still need it I'll have to leave such things for bygone years. 

It still remains, that if the sport you support were as intended as battlefield hand to hand is, someone would be dead or an invalid for life. While I agree that  kick boxing can be used as a defence or attack method it can be effective, and produce appropreate damage on a body to disable. But as I see and understand it, it is a sport no different then boxing, football, or basketball. Actual hand to hand is not for sport. Consider, military hand to hand is not for sport, it's the real deal.

 

 

 

Muay Boran is the "non-sport" hand to hand martial art that was employed by the Thai military.  Muay Thai is the  "sport"

derivative. 

 

 Strange that you still consider Muay Thai such a pussified activity. When I took Muay Thai here in Texas ( my teacher was a Laotian ) no one could compete in a sanctioned fight using Thai rules because the use of elbows to the face and head is not permitted by the sanctioning bodies in Texas. Any use of elbows to an  opponents unprotected head  and the fight would be unofficial and  the results not recognized.

If one of our students wanted to officially compete according to Thai rules  ( elbows) the nearest state that would recognize the fight as legitimate was Oklahoma. 

 

Funny thing, a married couple  had both just begun training with us and were obviously newbies. The wife asked my instructor "Do people get hurt in Muay Thai ?"  He laughed "People die in Muay Thai."

 

BTW, my former instructor was a CIDG  fighter during the war in Vietnam.

 

 

degrade. I don't understand you apparently. Let's take alook. If you go back to my post you'll see that I pointed to your sport as being a ligitimate means of combat. However, I can't see what that has to do with comparing it to hand to hand. Hand to hand , as I said is a defensive operation not an attack. In hand to hand it is taught an attaker is at the disadvantage. An atacker has a plan, the defender knows that and will attempt to foil the plan. The defender has no plan, and must react effectivly to moves an proceedure of the attacker--which includes blocking kicks. I could not kick Fernado, and Fernado could not kick me. In hand to hand there is no sport, it's serious business. There are hand to hand matches and demonstrations of course. In my instructions there was no plan of attack, as hand to hand was not ment for attack. Prctice always was about defense not offense. If there was any offense it was "after" the defender had control of the attaker. I've never practiced offencive hand to hand, because. that's not what it was about. GHand to hand has no round 1 or round 2 etc ( and there probably isn't in kick boxing)

Looking at images on line I cannot see how a kick boxer could ever outdo a competent hand to hander. The Kickers foot would never get back to the deck. apparently in Kick boxing the contestants aren't allowed to grab the opponent. But that's not how it works in Hand to hand. So, If a kick boxers foot cannot be grabbed, and I can plainly see that it can be blocked, and if a hand to hander were allowed to secure the foot--which is the object of hand to hand, then, How does a kick boxer win. He's on the mat on his abdomin, face down.

The kick boxer would have to be so fast that the hander is unable to see it coming---but that what hand to hand is all about--to defeat such moves and dispacth the attaker.   That means that hand to hand and kick boxing are two very different things. And no, I don't mean to pussify it becasue I don't pussify regular boxing or football etc. These are contact sports and winning is done by points I assume. Hand to hands has no points, unless done for sport.

 

 

 In Muay Thai the fighters are allowed to

1) trap their opponent's kicking legs to gain control and neutralize the attack. ...which means "the attacker's foot" can "grabbed".

 

2) they also clinch where they clasp their hands behind the neck of their opponent and pull them in close so that knee strikes can be  administered to the torso, or they can pull the other fighter off balance and throw them down to the floor of the ring.

 

3) Muay Thai matches are not won on points. Most fights are won by KO.

 

 

 

Please continue with your uninformed objections. 


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Uninformed objections

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 I was willing to do what you were not,  which was use the internet to investigate you Mr. Pansoy is that he is now deceased.  Also, he broke apple crates and bricks which means.... he broke apple crates and bricks.

That's very impressive.

 

Melchor Menor is a Filipino American who competes as a Muay Thai fighter.  He breaks baseball bats with his shins.

It's on Youtube. 

 

 

I did go online to look at things. I didn't look at any of the contestants that you mentioned becasue I'm not familiar with them. I also looked up hand to hand etc, and found not much has changed since my day. I use Fernando's obit to show we've been there and I'm not making things up. My hand to hand is for the battle field and not for sport. There-in lies the difference between our inputs and understandings. I have no doubt the man you mention can break a bat with his shins, but, he has developed an accomodation for that over time and practice. Juat he same has my hands no longer show the effects of such use , as over time the hands return to normal. I still have a slightly larges portion on my right hand but today that's becasue of being right handed. I cannot break a apple crate end today as I could in younger times. Today my hand would turn to dust doing such a thing, and being Smiling I still need it I'll have to leave such things for bygone years. 

It still remains, that if the sport you support were as intended as battlefield hand to hand is, someone would be dead or an invalid for life. While I agree that  kick boxing can be used as a defence or attack method it can be effective, and produce appropreate damage on a body to disable. But as I see and understand it, it is a sport no different then boxing, football, or basketball. Actual hand to hand is not for sport. Consider, military hand to hand is not for sport, it's the real deal.

 

 

 

Muay Boran is the "non-sport" hand to hand martial art that was employed by the Thai military.  Muay Thai is the  "sport"

derivative. 

 

 Strange that you still consider Muay Thai such a pussified activity. When I took Muay Thai here in Texas ( my teacher was a Laotian ) no one could compete in a sanctioned fight using Thai rules because the use of elbows to the face and head is not permitted by the sanctioning bodies in Texas. Any use of elbows to an  opponents unprotected head  and the fight would be unofficial and  the results not recognized.

If one of our students wanted to officially compete according to Thai rules  ( elbows) the nearest state that would recognize the fight as legitimate was Oklahoma. 

 

Funny thing, a married couple  had both just begun training with us and were obviously newbies. The wife asked my instructor "Do people get hurt in Muay Thai ?"  He laughed "People die in Muay Thai."

 

BTW, my former instructor was a CIDG  fighter during the war in Vietnam.

 

 

degrade. I don't understand you apparently. Let's take alook. If you go back to my post you'll see that I pointed to your sport as being a ligitimate means of combat. However, I can't see what that has to do with comparing it to hand to hand. Hand to hand , as I said is a defensive operation not an attack. In hand to hand it is taught an attaker is at the disadvantage. An atacker has a plan, the defender knows that and will attempt to foil the plan. The defender has no plan, and must react effectivly to moves an proceedure of the attacker--which includes blocking kicks. I could not kick Fernado, and Fernado could not kick me. In hand to hand there is no sport, it's serious business. There are hand to hand matches and demonstrations of course. In my instructions there was no plan of attack, as hand to hand was not ment for attack. Prctice always was about defense not offense. If there was any offense it was "after" the defender had control of the attaker. I've never practiced offencive hand to hand, because. that's not what it was about. GHand to hand has no round 1 or round 2 etc ( and there probably isn't in kick boxing)

Looking at images on line I cannot see how a kick boxer could ever outdo a competent hand to hander. The Kickers foot would never get back to the deck. apparently in Kick boxing the contestants aren't allowed to grab the opponent. But that's not how it works in Hand to hand. So, If a kick boxers foot cannot be grabbed, and I can plainly see that it can be blocked, and if a hand to hander were allowed to secure the foot--which is the object of hand to hand, then, How does a kick boxer win. He's on the mat on his abdomin, face down.

The kick boxer would have to be so fast that the hander is unable to see it coming---but that what hand to hand is all about--to defeat such moves and dispacth the attaker.   That means that hand to hand and kick boxing are two very different things. And no, I don't mean to pussify it becasue I don't pussify regular boxing or football etc. These are contact sports and winning is done by points I assume. Hand to hands has no points, unless done for sport.

 

 

 In Muay Thai the fighters are allowed to

1) trap their opponent's kicking legs to gain control and neutralize the attack. ...which means "the attacker's foot" can "grabbed".

 

2) they also clinch where they clasp their hands behind the neck of their opponent and pull them in close so that knee strikes can be  administered to the torso, or they can pull the other fighter off balance and throw them down to the floor of the ring.

 

3) Muay Thai matches are not won on points. Most fights are won by KO.

 

 

 

Please continue with your uninformed objections. 

Is correct but not quite, I have no objections for kickboxing ot martial arts. I didn't know much of anything about kick boxing or My tia whatever. So now I understand. But, what are your objections to my critisim of-- an attacker making a 10 foot run, jumping up in the air at high speed toward a defender, where by an able Hand to hander ducks, grabs is foot and kick his nuts to under his chin. What does that have to do with degrading kick boxing. It's considered in Hand to hand a stupid and hollywood move for sensationalism. I didnt have kick boxing in mind. How could I have--I didn't know anything about it. The OP is about fake Martial arts not legitimate contact sports. I'm sure the poster understood that.

Kick boxing is not the same as hand to hand, one is sport, one is not. Moreover, why do you think I should care about kickboxing  be it fake or no. Boxing is a sport for show. Hand to hand is not. Hand to hand can be for sport if one wants it that, but that's not it's purpose. Well, I have to admit that I was uninformed, but where did I degrade your sport. In my opinion it's sport and it looks to be, no different then boxing or foodball. I don't understand how show anything can be real compared to Hand to hand which is necessary for one's survival. No one has to be in a ring getting beat up unless they prefer. Hand to hand is a no choice situation perpetrated by an attaker for harm of an individual. If someone want to voluteer to get beat up--so they do. An Hand to hander is in no mood to get beat up, so its proceedures to handle the situation. Football, basebal boxing and sports in general are minics of warfare, Hand to hand isn't. I find no practical use for kickboxing so I doesn't interest me and it's not something I would need for self defence. Smiling

 

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digitalbeachbum wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not impressed, well sort of, but I'm not in awe.

 

 

 

 

OFWG not impressed with Melchor Menor's bat breaking demo, claims he's cheating. Melchor goes into hiding !


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I'm not impressed, well sort of, but I'm not in awe.

OFWG not impressed with Melchor Menor's bat breaking demo, claims he's cheating. Melchor goes into hiding !

Brian, you need to go back on your meds. No, I'm not impressed, well sort of, but I'm not in awe.

Personally I think it is only feeding his ego when he kicks cheap WalMart bats.


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 Trolling aside, Melchor

 Trolling aside, Melchor ( 5'7", 140 lbs ) breaks bats all the time as a display of his sheer power.

The program "Fight Science" identifies the base ball bat as ash, which according to your wiki is rated at 1320.

If you click on the wiki entry for ash it is described as a hard wood and one of its many applications is baseball bats.


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Trolling aside, Melchor ( 5'7", 140 lbs ) breaks bats all the time as a display of his sheer power.

The program "Fight Science" identifies the base ball bat as ash, which according to your wiki is rated at 1320.

If you click on the wiki entry for ash it is described as a hard wood and one of its many applications is baseball bats.

Well, I went through a dozen or more "fight science" videos and I'm not impressed by the science of it all.

On the surface things look to be legit, but I have videos of your guy doing only 770 lbs of force on his kicks, but I have videos of other fighters doing (different styles) up to 2300lbs of force.

I even found a video of a muy thai fighter kicking over 1300lbs of force on his kick dwarfing your martial artist.

 

So this doesn't add up and I suspect there is a problem with the people who executed the science of it all. I believe that there is a problem with the bags they used and the springs used to hold the bag.

There seems to be a big issue with allowing the kick to follow through. Some of the tests had a bag on a giant spring and I watched the legs go all the way through the motion.

Other kicks were restricted because the back was hanging from a chain. then another video showed a bag being held from the top and the bottom by a thick rubber strand.

 

As for the kicking of the bat, nope, totally un-scientific even thought I still think kicking a baseball bat is no different than breaking bricks.

The way the bat is held, the manuefacture of the bat, the wood used or is it MLB certified?

You ever wonder what kind of bricks they break? Where they get them from? How those bricks are created? They aren't building bricks. They are demo bricks specifically made for breaking in a demonstration.

As for the bats, the one show I saw said they were using an ash bat but when I watched them set up I saw they specifically placed the bat in a specific manner, grain in favor of the kicker. This includes your fighter.

 

Baseball bats are designed to be held in a very specific way in order to optimize their stregth of the wood grain.

Most idiots who play baseball don't know that you can increase your strength of your swing by holding the bat so that the label of the bat is either facing down or out to the pitch when you strike the ball.

This allows for maximum strength and gives more power transfer to the baseball when you strike it. (when i say 'swing' I mean the finished product, not the actual motion of the swing)

So based on the video I saw, they specifically put the labesl AWAY from the martial artist, which weakens the bat considerably.

 

You also then need to consider the thickness of the handle of the bat. Not all bats are created equal.

MLB does not have a standard for the thickness of bats at the handle. They vary from 15/16, 31/32, 1 and 29/32.

Some bats are less than 15/16.

 

So, no... I'm not impressed by people who break bricks, break bats or do demonstrations on a television show with scientists who haven't considered all the variables.

 


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 I'm interested in the MT

 I'm interested in the MT fighter who registered the 1300 ft/lbs of kicking force. Can you post a link or at least name the web site ? I want to know more about this fighter.

 

 


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:  I'm

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 I'm interested in the MT fighter who registered the 1300 ft/lbs of kicking force. Can you post a link or at least name the web site ? I want to know more about this fighter.

 

 

https://youtu.be/mWni9PTgnBU?t=358

It says 1400 lbs of force

There was another one... I'll need to dig, but they had 1300+

All Muy Thai... but that is my problem... the science is not exact. You must use the same exact conditions to get a fair comparison


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 Okay, thanks for the

 Okay, thanks for the link.

I'm kind of looking forward to the McGregor vs Mayweather fight. TONS of hype, I'm sure who ever loses will be full of excuses, due to age differences, pure boxer vs MMA who is crossing over, etc.

Still sounds like fun though ( unless one guy gets immediately KO'd and everyone goes home early, which sucks for the fans .)


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 Okay, thanks for the link.

I'm kind of looking forward to the McGregor vs Mayweather fight. TONS of hype, I'm sure who ever loses will be full of excuses, due to age differences, pure boxer vs MMA who is crossing over, etc.

Still sounds like fun though ( unless one guy gets immediately KO'd and everyone goes home early, which sucks for the fans .)

I have heard of the fight and won't be watching it. Two egos clashing together in a fight square isn't my cup of tea.