We are not different.

Brian37
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We are not different.

Humans can argue all we want how different we are. The only real argument is about how we treat outsiders. Humans defend the social norms we are born into and to that end most of us have tunnel vision. The ultimate argument is merely about how humans fight and or cooperate over delegation of resources. The rest is artificial bullshit as to which each club, when we dominate and build temporary monuments to temporary success. It is not to say goodness does not exist, or to say with even all our entrenched differences we cant find overlap, we can. Our species problem has always been gravity on a giant ball, as to which most cannot see how unimportant and fragile and alike we are in reality. No matter our differences, we are the same.

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What you're refereing to

Brian37 wrote:
Humans can argue all we want how different we are. The only real argument is about how we treat outsiders. Humans defend the social norms we are born into and to that end most of us have tunnel vision. The ultimate argument is merely about how humans fight and or cooperate over delegation of resources. The rest is artificial bullshit as to which each club, when we dominate and build temporary monuments to temporary success. It is not to say goodness does not exist, or to say with even all our entrenched differences we cant find overlap, we can. Our species problem has always been gravity on a giant ball, as to which most cannot see how unimportant and fragile and alike we are in reality. No matter our differences, we are the same.
is the biblical passage- All men are created equal. Well yes, and no. What makes up a person is that all have the same personal characteristics that "make a person". In that context, we are all equal. What makes the difference is the "intensity" that each uses the different characteristics that make the person. IOW, sensitivity. All have different sensitivity. Some find it easier to hate then others, while another is prone to love and be gentle. each presides over their characteristics with differences in intensity and senitivity creating different personalities. All the charateristics remain the same and same number of characteristics. A person cannot get rid of any one of them. Hitler hated, but still loved his friends and family. The intensities of Hitler shows a bad guy, but he couldn't get rid of the "good guy".  (according to the Psycho Smurfs) 

 

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 We are equal, but not

 We are equal, but not because some old book of myth makes horrible claims about what they thought back then. We are equal because life is finite. There is no forever. There were simply ignorant humans in both polythiesm and monotheism in anquity who didn't have any modern scientific knowledge about the nature of reality.

I cannot take your book anymore seriously than the Koran or Jewish OT or Hindu Baghavad Gita/Vedas or the writings of the alleged first Budddha.

That was then, this is now. 

Our species has been around for 150,000 years, and only started writing about 10,000 years ago. Our planet is 4 billion years old, and our universe is 13.8 billion years old. Nope sorry, we are not the products of a magical sky factory boss. Religion is nothing more than the product of humans flawed perceptions. Most humans get sold the religions of their parents long before they can formlate adult critical thinking skills.

 

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Humans can

Brian37 wrote:
Humans can argue all we want how different we are. The only real argument is about how we treat outsiders. Humans defend the social norms we are born into and to that end most of us have tunnel vision. The ultimate argument is merely about how humans fight and or cooperate over delegation of resources. The rest is artificial bullshit as to which each club, when we dominate and build temporary monuments to temporary success. It is not to say goodness does not exist, or to say with even all our entrenched differences we cant find overlap, we can. Our species problem has always been gravity on a giant ball, as to which most cannot see how unimportant and fragile and alike we are in reality. No matter our differences, we are the same.

Why stop there? All primates are equals. We need to start giving chimps and bonobos the dignity they deserve. We share a common ancestor. We need to stop locking them up in zoos because we think they are outsiders, when we need to see how much we are all the same.

Why even stop there, all mamals and indeed and animals and plants, we're all equals and need to be shown equal respect.

Yes, I've often thought too how wonderful the world would be without gravity. We could all just float out into space along with the atmosphere. Although having severe case of the bends would kind of suck.

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 All humans are born equal,

 All humans are born equal, fortunately some of us get better.


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The Chimps

may very well be better off then we are. Intellect is our worst enemy.


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Beyond Saving wrote: All

Beyond Saving wrote:

 All humans are born equal, fortunately some of us get better.

And here is the narcissism Sagan warned our species of and some of us, even some athesits cant seem to shake it. 

Yea ok Han Solo, you keep measuring "better" by your income. Marrie AntionRand Atlas Chump.

Humans are born equal, yes. And no matter where we end up economically we are still equal. A poor person can die of old age, and a rich person can die before they reproduce. What makes western societies better than more poor countries is that we can create more economic stability for more. Some people are still stuck in the past of Reagan's failed deregulation and "don't tax the rich" bullshit, which since he set in motion, has caused the pay gap to expode which is allowing only the uber rich to benefit increasingly.

 

I am equal to you, sorry that bothers you. I also vote too. 

 

 

 

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Humans are not born equal,

Humans are not born equal, and they never have been. It is unlikely they ever will be, as accomplishing that would require genetic engineering and social engineering on scales we can barely comprehend.

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Brian37 wrote:Humans are

Brian37 wrote:
Humans are born equal, yes.
 On what basis do you assert this?  

It may be useful to abide by the concept "humans are born equal" for the sake of a stable society -- i.e., treating all individuals in theory as equal, when in fact they are not.

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Vastet wrote:Humans are not

Vastet wrote:
Humans are not born equal, and they never have been. It is unlikely they ever will be, as accomplishing that would require genetic engineering and social engineering on scales we can barely comprehend.

Genetic differences don't really matter at birth. We are all born helpless utterly dependent and would be dead in a matter of days left to our own devices regardless of genetic benefits.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:Beyond Saving

Brian37 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 All humans are born equal, fortunately some of us get better.

And here is the narcissism Sagan warned our species of and some of us, even some athesits cant seem to shake it. 

Yea ok Han Solo, you keep measuring "better" by your income. Marrie AntionRand Atlas Chump.

Humans are born equal, yes. And no matter where we end up economically we are still equal. A poor person can die of old age, and a rich person can die before they reproduce. What makes western societies better than more poor countries is that we can create more economic stability for more. Some people are still stuck in the past of Reagan's failed deregulation and "don't tax the rich" bullshit, which since he set in motion, has caused the pay gap to expode which is allowing only the uber rich to benefit increasingly.

 

I am equal to you, sorry that bothers you. I also vote too. 

 

 

 

Interesting that you jump to economics as your go to measure of "better". 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Vastet

Beyond Saving wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Humans are not born equal, and they never have been. It is unlikely they ever will be, as accomplishing that would require genetic engineering and social engineering on scales we can barely comprehend.

Genetic differences don't really matter at birth. We are all born helpless utterly dependent and would be dead in a matter of days left to our own devices regardless of genetic benefits.

Most of us will survive with only sustenance and shelter. Not all will. Some need intensive care for weeks or months. Some won't survive no matter what you do. There is no stage in the human life cycle from conception to old age in which all members of the species could be considered equal. Indeed, evolution absolutely guarantees that all humans cannot be equal at any stage of the life cycle.

We can treat all people equally, but doing so only creates problems because not all people are equal. Some people need help just living.

All people should be considered equal in the justice system, because they must be in order to produce anything akin to a fair and just society. But outside of that, it only creates problems without solving any.

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Vastet wrote:Humans are not

Vastet wrote:
Humans are not born equal, and they never have been. It is unlikely they ever will be, as accomplishing that would require genetic engineering and social engineering on scales we can barely comprehend.

Yes we are equal, we all are born and we all die. The other stuff in differences between is genetics, environment, upbringing economy, but the ride ends for all of us, and despite our differences our species it still ammounts to different ways of setting up social order in the goal of gaining resources. 

I could give a shit less about class or status open west or closed theocracy. There are certainly ideas that lead to more protection of pluralism and bad ideas that lead to oppression, but that does not matter long term, power shifts over time and nobody lives forever.

I think Carol Sagan was a very insightful man, I may be a more blunt person, but he is damned right with his Pale Blue Dot Speech. 

Only an idiot thinks money is the measure of a person. Only an idiot thinks a label, any label, even atheist, has some magic super power to give one imortality. There is no forever not for anyone.

Yes we are equal. Now if you want to say there are people who have worse health problems, or worse economies and live under oppressive rule that don't lean to human empathy, i'd agree with that. But evolution doesn't give one shit if cruelty or compassion win, it is up to humans as to what we choose. 

There is better science and better use of logic sure, but the ride ends for everyone. This planet will eventually die and the sun will too and the universe will continue without any record of our existence. Our temporary "success" between our birth and deaths as individuals is  still TEMPORARY, and that is what I mean by equal in cosmic time.

So if those who disagree with me here, but agree with what matters is now, yep, I still am equal and I still vote and I will use my vote because now is what matters, and economically I do NOT see what the "fuck you I got mine" "don't tax the rich" assholes have produced other than a long term pay gap that only benefits the top and not the workers.

You and Beyond are as short sighted and have tunnel vision on par with theists. Sorry, I am equal, more lucky than some for right now maybe, not as well off as some financially maybe, but so what. I am still equal, don't like it, tough shit.

 

 

 

 

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No we are not equal. The

No we are not equal. The fact we all die is irrelevant. Stars die too. Stars are not equal. Don't be retarded.

Every single person is unique, thus it is absolutely impossible for all to be equal. You are not equal, you never will be equal. You're blind and stupid if you think otherwise.

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This is no intention

Brian37 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Humans are not born equal, and they never have been. It is unlikely they ever will be, as accomplishing that would require genetic engineering and social engineering on scales we can barely comprehend.

Yes we are equal, we all are born and we all die. The other stuff in differences between is genetics, environment, upbringing economy, but the ride ends for all of us, and despite our differences our species it still ammounts to different ways of setting up social order in the goal of gaining resources. 

I could give a shit less about class or status open west or closed theocracy. There are certainly ideas that lead to more protection of pluralism and bad ideas that lead to oppression, but that does not matter long term, power shifts over time and nobody lives forever.

I think Carol Sagan was a very insightful man, I may be a more blunt person, but he is damned right with his Pale Blue Dot Speech. 

Only an idiot thinks money is the measure of a person. Only an idiot thinks a label, any label, even atheist, has some magic super power to give one imortality. There is no forever not for anyone.

Yes we are equal. Now if you want to say there are people who have worse health problems, or worse economies and live under oppressive rule that don't lean to human empathy, i'd agree with that. But evolution doesn't give one shit if cruelty or compassion win, it is up to humans as to what we choose. 

There is better science and better use of logic sure, but the ride ends for everyone. This planet will eventually die and the sun will too and the universe will continue without any record of our existence. Our temporary "success" between our birth and deaths as individuals is  still TEMPORARY, and that is what I mean by equal in cosmic time.

So if those who disagree with me here, but agree with what matters is now, yep, I still am equal and I still vote and I will use my vote because now is what matters, and economically I do NOT see what the "fuck you I got mine" "don't tax the rich" assholes have produced other than a long term pay gap that only benefits the top and not the workers.

You and Beyond are as short sighted and have tunnel vision on par with theists. Sorry, I am equal, more lucky than some for right now maybe, not as well off as some financially maybe, but so what. I am still equal, don't like it, tough shit.

to throw fuel on a fire. But, you haven't really given your specs as to how you arrive at -we are all equal. What are your specifications that we can discern what you mean. The world mostly uses the physical or material terms to define equality. Explain please. 

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http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/31771?page=18#comment-42

Brian37 wrote:

CONTEXT MATTERS, 

7 billion humans, some have more, some have less, some have harder lives, some are more economically stable, in that context humans are not equal. But in cosmic time the ride starts and ends the same way no matter where  one ends up on the planet or how rich or poor they are.

If you cant understand that I don't know what to say. I think it is very important for more humans to understand this if we want to reduce suffering and increase stability.

 

Carol Sagan "Pale Blue Dot"........ 

Yes, we all die, and in cosmic time we all count for nothing.  But while we are alive, we are not all equal, as Sagan himself states in the quote you provided.  

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zarathustra wrote:Brian37

zarathustra wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

CONTEXT MATTERS, 

7 billion humans, some have more, some have less, some have harder lives, some are more economically stable, in that context humans are not equal. But in cosmic time the ride starts and ends the same way no matter where  one ends up on the planet or how rich or poor they are.

If you cant understand that I don't know what to say. I think it is very important for more humans to understand this if we want to reduce suffering and increase stability.

 

Carol Sagan "Pale Blue Dot"........ 

Yes, we all die, and in cosmic time we all count for nothing.  But while we are alive, we are not all equal, as Sagan himself states in the quote you provided.  




precisely, and the fact that human beings cannot just put things in the perspective of cosmic time will never change, nor should it. in terms of our daily lives, cosmic time is theoretical and meaningless.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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zarathustra wrote:Yes, we

zarathustra wrote:

Yes, we all die, and in cosmic time we all count for nothing.

I disagree. 

We all count. We all have purpose. If not, then we wouldn't be here.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:
I disagree. 

We all count.

 We may count to ourselves while we're alive, but there's nothing to indicate we count in any cosmic, eternal sense.

 

digitalbeachbum wrote:
We all have purpose. If not, then we wouldn't be here.
Our existence does not indicate purpose, as much as we me might like it to.  If we weren't here, we wouldn't be talking about it.  It's up to us to give our existence purpose.

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I disagree. All life

I disagree. All life increases entropy. If that isn't a purpose then I don't know what would be.

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zarathustra

zarathustra wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:
I disagree. 

We all count.

 We may count to ourselves while we're alive, but there's nothing to indicate we count in any cosmic, eternal sense.

 

digitalbeachbum wrote:
We all have purpose. If not, then we wouldn't be here.
Our existence does not indicate purpose, as much as we me might like it to.  If we weren't here, we wouldn't be talking about it.  It's up to us to give our existence purpose.

I think you misunderstood me. You have purpose because you are here. You didn't choose to be here. Your parents didn't choose you. You are here because of a chain of events that took place trillions of years ago. Your atoms will go on to feed another plant or person and eventually another star, ect. You have purpose.