Question for veterans (Vastet, Brian, etc)

motomarco
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Question for veterans (Vastet, Brian, etc)

Quick question for the veterans of the group.  Do any of you believe in any kind of unseen force?  Not necessarily God, but more like ghosts, or premonitions, or when a twin gets in a car accident halfway across the country and the other twin wakes up and realizes something is wrong.  I don't know if I do, but I read all kinds of accounts of this type of thing, and it's hard to dismiss ALL these people

Any of you place ANY credence in this type of thing?


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Unseen forces sure, but not

Unseen forces sure, but not unexplainable unseen forces. I've never seen or experienced anything that couldn't be explained by chemical reactions, physics, or electromagnetic forces. Doesn't mean I necessarily rule out the possibility, but until I see evidence...

The fact is that there are scientific explanations for many experiences people claim to have had. Haunted locations, for example, have often been found to have very low frequency sound waves that you can't actually perceive consciously, yet have a measurable impact on your state of mind and perceptions.

NDE's have been shown to occur simultaneously with significant brain activity, more than enough to conjur hallucinations or dreams.

I have woken up thinking something terrible had happened or that something was wrong multiple times in my life. But never found anything actually wrong to explain the feeling as a premonition. Indeed, when something does go wrong I'm completely oblivious until I run into it. Except on those few occasions where you could tell it was only a matter of time before something happened long before something happened.

Weirdest thing I ever experienced that I can recall was dreaming an event that actually did happen later. But I can chalk that up to coincidence as I've had thousands or millions of dreams that didn't come true, and only one that did.

But again, I'm open to any possibility which can be proven. Even a god. The universe is a strange enough place that you have to be careful and research ideas before completely dismissing them. And even then, you must be open to new evidence that could show up at any time.

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This kind of thing

Vastet wrote:
Unseen forces sure, but not unexplainable unseen forces. I've never seen or experienced anything that couldn't be explained by chemical reactions, physics, or electromagnetic forces. Doesn't mean I necessarily rule out the possibility, but until I see evidence... The fact is that there are scientific explanations for many experiences people claim to have had. Haunted locations, for example, have often been found to have very low frequency sound waves that you can't actually perceive consciously, yet have a measurable impact on your state of mind and perceptions. NDE's have been shown to occur simultaneously with significant brain activity, more than enough to conjur hallucinations or dreams. I have woken up thinking something terrible had happened or that something was wrong multiple times in my life. But never found anything actually wrong to explain the feeling as a premonition. Indeed, when something does go wrong I'm completely oblivious until I run into it. Except on those few occasions where you could tell it was only a matter of time before something happened long before something happened. Weirdest thing I ever experienced that I can recall was dreaming an event that actually did happen later. But I can chalk that up to coincidence as I've had thousands or millions of dreams that didn't come true, and only one that did. But again, I'm open to any possibility which can be proven. Even a god. The universe is a strange enough place that you have to be careful and research ideas before completely dismissing them. And even then, you must be open to new evidence that could show up at any time.

Can really get tricky. One can be taken for a fraud just by dealing with this subject. But, this is also a subject we OS hashed around on accounts of explainig miracle workings, expecially in a bible context. The thing was, knowing we would get into converation--what do we say if some one asks---what about miracles. ?????? Don't know. We decided we can't make a claim on something we cannot explain or know (in this case possibly know) how it can be. One insight was, how do we know how the brain works and what it's full capability is, or can be, so as , mind over matter. None of us has actually seen such a thing so we can't comment except to speculate. But---here goes. One item, If we have electronic devoses that can detect brian waves, how far then does a brian wave travel? I think you get the idea.

Out of body experiances claimed. When the brain is chemically depleted it can produce all manner of hallucinations. Starving floks often have hallucinations as the body (brain) begins to deplete. Fasting (as we think) deplets the physical system and gets rid of excess unneeded fuel in the brain making it work in a more clear way---we think(guess) I've never tried it so I can't say. Apparently from a guess stand point fasting seems to get rid of clog, lets say simmilar to an engine getting to much fuel and leaning it out a bit. ???? IE- Floks who don't overeat are healthier then those who do---that kind of idea. The universe contains no magic,

How far does the brain emit brain waves? Well, it seems we know that it's at least an inch. But then again, regular household 110 violts can be detected 200 miles into space and probably farther. It depends upon the sensitivity of the detector. The Russian secret snoops ( The US won't admit to such things) tried mind workings and so far utterly failed. They got took big time.  Smiling

 

 

 

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 The forces of science we

 The forces of science we don't have to merely "believe" exist, we know they exist. Unseen things like atoms and quarks sure, but super natural crap like ghosts, spirits, that is all bullshit.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I saw this television show

I was watching this show where one identical twin was ni a car crash and the other twin knew about it.  It obviously smells of bullshit but by the same token it didn't appear that  these girls were lying.  Like they believed what they were saying.  IDK, it just got me thinking...

Marc


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motomarco wrote:I was

motomarco wrote:

I was watching this show where one identical twin was ni a car crash and the other twin knew about it.  It obviously smells of bullshit but by the same token it didn't appear that  these girls were lying.  Like they believed what they were saying.  IDK, it just got me thinking...

...got you thinking what?  That the best explanation for this anecdote must be the paranormal?

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I don't remember saying

I don't remember saying that.  I was asking the members of the board if they give any creedence to any type of paranormal activity.  Not saying I do - to the contrary I actually DON'T believe in that stuff.  Does not mean that something could have happened with those twin girls though.  That's the point.  No one really knows one way or another.

Marc


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I'm open to the possibility

I'm open to the possibility (it wouldn't break the laws of physics), but generally I discard such things as observer bias. Very few people pay as much attention to failure as they do success. I'm perfectly willing to believe such an incident occurred, but I also am inclined to believe that the twin experienced such feelings fairly regularly; and it turning out to be true once negated all the times it didn't turn out to be true. Which makes the incident a coincidence instead of a truly amazing scenario.

More to the point, why didn't the twin experience other things that went wrong? Why do other twins not share such experiences?

Until there's something of substance that can be researched, it's simply a claim. A claim that must be coloured by the imperfections of humanity. Memory and perceptions can be very real, yet absolute horse shit. It's entirely possible that the event in question never happened, but that different events in memory combined to create a new event. We've observed that people can do this without being aware of it. That's much more likely than telepathic communication.

That said, what we are learning about the quantum world is decidedly stranger than a fleeting communication between individuals hundreds of kilometres away. Indeed, it's theoretically possible that quantum entanglement could explain such a communication. But in order for me to accept that as a real possibility, it needs to be replicable. Demonstrable. A few people making claims holds as much water as a sieve. Claims are not enough, even from people who are extremely trustworthy. Simply because their memories are decidedly too subjective and vulnerable to flaws to be able to claim they are valid.

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Thank you for such a

Thank you for such a well-reasoned and intelligent answer (as usual) Vastet.


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motomarco wrote: I don't

motomarco wrote:

I don't remember saying that.  I was asking the members of the board if they give any creedence to any type of paranormal activity.  Not saying I do - to the contrary I actually DON'T believe in that stuff.  Does not mean that something could have happened with those twin girls though.  That's the point.  No one really knows one way or another.

As I have posted previously, I was on the other side of the planet when my grand mother died. My grand mother appeared to me in a dream, or what I would call such, and it happened two nights in a row.

On the second morning I found out she had died, the dreams stopped. I've been told a lot of things but I reject all of them. I keep it as a personal experience for my purpose alone.

Why it happened was most likely because my grand mother and I were extremely close. How it happen I haven't a clue, but I've heard a variety of theories.

Do I believe in life after death? No, not in the sense that most religious people want to believe that they will keep their body and appearance.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I've

digitalbeachbum wrote:
I've been told a lot of things but I reject all of them. I keep it as a personal experience for my purpose alone.



i think that's a damn sensible, humanistic position. the only people that could possibly have a problem with a position like this are fanatics, regardless of which side of the debate they're on. in fact, if you want to ferret out a fanatic, make a statement like this.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:digitalbeachbum

iwbiek wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:
I've been told a lot of things but I reject all of them. I keep it as a personal experience for my purpose alone.

i think that's a damn sensible, humanistic position. the only people that could possibly have a problem with a position like this are fanatics, regardless of which side of the debate they're on. in fact, if you want to ferret out a fanatic, make a statement like this.

I've unintentionally found this out. I've had religious people tell me it was Satan trying to trick me, but I laughed. I told them, "trick me? I'm already an atheist and have repeatedly rejected god/christ/virgin mary/etc. What more is there to need to trick me in order to get my soul to go to hell?" I'm a Buddhist and will be until the day I die.

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:iwbiek

digitalbeachbum wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:
I've been told a lot of things but I reject all of them. I keep it as a personal experience for my purpose alone.

i think that's a damn sensible, humanistic position. the only people that could possibly have a problem with a position like this are fanatics, regardless of which side of the debate they're on. in fact, if you want to ferret out a fanatic, make a statement like this.

I've unintentionally found this out. I've had religious people tell me it was Satan trying to trick me, but I laughed. I told them, "trick me? I'm already an atheist and have repeatedly rejected god/christ/virgin mary/etc. What more is there to need to trick me in order to get my soul to go to hell?" I'm a Buddhist and will be until the day I die.

 




the school where i teach is lutheran. in europe, they don't make such a big deal out of it, but still, i can't just openly say i'm an atheist without putting my job in danger. i don't want to lose my job, not only because i have a family to support, but also because i genuinely love working there. it's the best place i've ever taught. the students are wonderful, and the majority of them are irreligious. i actually worked for a principal once who was avowedly anti-religion, and of course i agreed with her, but she wasn't nearly as good a boss as the one i have now. still, both teachers and students know i'm not a religious person, and as long as i don't get down on religion openly in my classes, no one asks me about my beliefs. rather than discourage religion in my students, i encourage critical thinking.


still, they know i'm objective when talking about religions in general, they know i'm getting a doctorate in hindu studies, and they know i'm sympathetic to many branches of the indian traditions. i keep bits of hindu and buddhist paraphernalia i've acquired over the years on my desk (a shiva-linga, an small idol of dattatreya, a tibetan bell and dorje, etc.), and i sometimes wear nepalese prayer beads on my left wrist (a practice i refuse to explain or justify). about three years ago, this prompted a visit from the vice-principal to my office to warn me that some students were "concerned" that i am "more interested in eastern religions than christianity." she's a good friend of mine and meant it as a friendly heads-up; indeed, she seemed embarrassed about the whole thing. she knows i'm not a hindu or buddhist any more than i'm a christian.


after that, i took a risk and decided to go on the offensive. i spent a few minutes with each of my classes, telling them that i had never once showed even a slight disrespect to christianity in my lessons (which is true, and i dared them to pinpoint a single instance), nor had i ever spent any significant time talking about any other religion, unless the students had asked me about them. so i said i had no choice but to conclude that the problem was not that i had shown disrespect to christianity, but rather that i hadn't shown enough disrespect to other traditions, and that i was deeply disappointed by that thought. whoever the "concerned" parties were never spoke up (i knew they wouldn't, otherwise they would have come to me in the first place rather than try to play the administration against me) and i've never again heard of any such complaints in the years since. i still have my things out and i still sometimes wear my mala. i won't cave to fanatics, ever, be they religious or anti-religion.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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i know this isn't what the

i know this isn't what the OP meant by "veteran," but i get this in my head every time i see this topic in the feed.




"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:and i sometimes

iwbiek wrote:
and i sometimes wear nepalese prayer beads on my left wrist (a practice i refuse to explain or justify)

Lol nice. I'd probably just assume it was a friendship bracelet or something.

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iwbiek wrote: the school

iwbiek wrote:

the school where i teach is lutheran. in europe, they don't make such a big deal out of it, but still, i can't just openly say i'm an atheist without putting my job in danger. i don't want to lose my job, not only because i have a family to support, but also because i genuinely love working there. it's the best place i've ever taught. the students are wonderful, and the majority of them are irreligious. i actually worked for a principal once who was avowedly anti-religion, and of course i agreed with her, but she wasn't nearly as good a boss as the one i have now. still, both teachers and students know i'm not a religious person, and as long as i don't get down on religion openly in my classes, no one asks me about my beliefs. rather than discourage religion in my students, i encourage critical thinking.
still, they know i'm objective when talking about religions in general, they know i'm getting a doctorate in hindu studies, and they know i'm sympathetic to many branches of the indian traditions. i keep bits of hindu and buddhist paraphernalia i've acquired over the years on my desk (a shiva-linga, an small idol of dattatreya, a tibetan bell and dorje, etc.), and i sometimes wear nepalese prayer beads on my left wrist (a practice i refuse to explain or justify). about three years ago, this prompted a visit from the vice-principal to my office to warn me that some students were "concerned" that i am "more interested in eastern religions than christianity." she's a good friend of mine and meant it as a friendly heads-up; indeed, she seemed embarrassed about the whole thing. she knows i'm not a hindu or buddhist any more than i'm a christian.
after that, i took a risk and decided to go on the offensive. i spent a few minutes with each of my classes, telling them that i had never once showed even a slight disrespect to christianity in my lessons (which is true, and i dared them to pinpoint a single instance), nor had i ever spent any significant time talking about any other religion, unless the students had asked me about them. so i said i had no choice but to conclude that the problem was not that i had shown disrespect to christianity, but rather that i hadn't shown enough disrespect to other traditions, and that i was deeply disappointed by that thought. whoever the "concerned" parties were never spoke up (i knew they wouldn't, otherwise they would have come to me in the first place rather than try to play the administration against me) and i've never again heard of any such complaints in the years since. i still have my things out and i still sometimes wear my mala. i won't cave to fanatics, ever, be they religious or anti-religion.

You might already know this, but I find it all over the United States. There is a vain attitude, a sense of arrogance in every single christian who speaks of their religion and ignores the others from around the world. Have you seen it? A small example would be the religious leaders who make laws to favor christians but ignore or harm others? It is the same attitude which makes people believe that if you are a Muslim you must be a terrorist, because Islam is a violent religion. It is the same attitude which believes there are only three religions, islam, judaism and christianity. It's the same cock suckers on FOX news who claim christmas is under attack.

Every time I see this I want to scream.

I've been around the world several times, I've seen a lot of things, one of them is how chrisitans aren't the same. The other is that there are more than three religions.

I shocked my family when I told them christians in s. america and c. amercia do not believe the same thing that they do. They do not have the same customs. One is that baby jesus brings the gifts, not santa. Another is that every church has a finger, blood, hair or some other religious realic stored in the church and each of them have some kind of miracle for the town, like holy spring of water, a special tree, etc.

People in Peru have a saying that 90% of Peruvians are Catholic but only 10% of them follow it. Priests are more like store front owners. They run a business. They give kids pencils just to get them to come to church because in order for the kids to go to school they need the pencils. The parents are so poor they can't afford the pencils and the government doesn't supply them. So the "catholics" who attend the church don't really follow the religion, they just want pencils for the kids.

I attended a Lutheran high school for a few years. It wasn't by choice and I do not know how my mom found the place. It was across town and it became a problem to get me there each day.

Most of the kids there smoked weed and fucked in a tent in the woods behind the classrooms. A handful of them were glue sniffers. A few girls got pregnant and had abortions. They weren't as self righteous as the catholic shits I knew, but there were a couple of holy rollers who peddled that jesus shit. The school was just happy to have paying parents. They accepted any one, including atheists.


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our school is, i guess you

our school is, i guess you could say, semi-private. the slovak system is kind of odd (to me) in how they classify schools. in many ways, it's a state school: teachers are state employees, we get full state funding, etc. on the other hand, we're a church school. the bishop has a say in hirings (but not the final say), many of our buildings are leased in the name of the church, and of course there are religion classes and weekly services for the students (which most of them hate with a passion).


our school charges a yearly tuition, but not nearly as much as what slovaks refer to as "private school," and our academic standards are very high, including our entrance exams. still, any child with a connection in the church is pretty much in, and anyone who can produce a protestant baptismal certificate gets 20 bonus points on his entrance test (an absolutely ridiculous advantage). i admit, anytime i hear a student is a pastor's kid it immediately prejudices me against him--i automatically assume he'll be lazy, entitled, and rather dumb. in seven years of teaching there, out of at least 30 church kids i've taught, i was wrong maaaaybe twice. of course, moneyed kids are in no problem too. still, the majority of our kids are intelligent, come from a middle-class background, and are well behaved, apart from occasional arrogance or brattiness, which i enjoy shutting down damn quick.


if a student suddenly decides to get religious, he usually becomes very lazy because he figures he's part of an elite now. the first year i taught there, during a break, one of my coworkers in our shared office told me about a student who had to make up a test but refused to come for the only possible time slot she had available because he "always prays during that time." i was absolutely livid and i think i screamed something to the effect of "call that little shit back in here!" but she told me he was long gone. i always hoped some student would try that line on me but it never happened. i don't how she ended up solving it (she only worked there the one year), but she was hesitant to call him on his bullshit because we were a christian school.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Vastet wrote:iwbiek

Vastet wrote:
iwbiek wrote:
and i sometimes wear nepalese prayer beads on my left wrist (a practice i refuse to explain or justify)

Lol nice. I'd probably just assume it was a friendship bracelet or something.




a lot of it is just that people around here are so nosy, i love to give them something to speculate about that in reality is meaningless.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:i admit,

iwbiek wrote:
i admit, anytime i hear a student is a pastor's kid it immediately prejudices me against him--i automatically assume he'll be lazy, entitled, and rather dumb. in seven years of teaching there, out of at least 30 church kids i've taught, i was wrong maaaaybe twice. of course, moneyed kids are in no problem too. still, the majority of our kids are intelligent, come from a middle-class background, and are well behaved, apart from occasional arrogance or brattiness, which i enjoy shutting down damn quick.
if a student suddenly decides to get religious, he usually becomes very lazy because he figures he's part of an elite now. the first year i taught there, during a break, one of my coworkers in our shared office told me about a student who had to make up a test but refused to come for the only possible time slot she had available because he "always prays during that time." i was absolutely livid and i think i screamed something to the effect of "call that little shit back in here!" but she told me he was long gone. i always hoped some student would try that line on me but it never happened. i don't how she ended up solving it (she only worked there the one year), but she was hesitant to call him on his bullshit because we were a christian school.

We had a new pastor come in to our school and he brought his daughter with him. When she started every one was hands off because they were afraid to mess around with her. It turns out she was a fuck fest. She was always being good up front but in the background she was a wild girl. The pastor was a bit of an ignorant man and put up with a lot of our shit. It was the others in power who always scared me.

There was a guy who I hung with in computer lab. He was always doing shit and was a bit of a hacker. One day we got in trouble and were pulled in to the principals office. He tried that "we called the cops and you are going to get in to trouble". We laughed and looked at each other when, no kidding, my friend says, "yeah, well we are going to tell the cops you asked us to suck your cock and that you have been harassing us to have gay sex with you in the storage room". Sounds familiar? The scene from American Beauty, but it was 25 years before that script was written. Needless to say he let us go because no cops were coming.

Another guy smacked me and my friend and threatened to beat us to a pulp but he did call the cops after our parents found out. The bishop got involved and they fired his ass really quickly. The Lutherans are totally peaceful followers. They aren't violent like the Catholics.

They always made sure we made good grades. No one skated on tests or grades. We all had to pull our weight. BUT... there were these guys from Sweden. Haans and aw fuck.. I forget the other name. They were like 7ft 2inches tall and massive on the courts. For a 1A school they brought a lot of points to the basketball games. They were definitely not stupid, but they always got straight A's and they had the two hottest girls in the school.

Overall the Lutheran high school was good for me, but when they moved the school to another location it was just too far to travel so my senior year I went back to the bigger school closer to my home. At the time I thought it was a good idea, but the bigger school sucked as I look back on it now. We had a massive graduating class, like 900 kids, and it was filled with too many egos.