Plans to visit moon of Jupiter and Saturn that may harbour life

Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Plans to visit moon of Jupiter and Saturn that may harbour life

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Old Seer
Theist
Posts: 1520
Joined: 2011-11-12
User is offlineOffline
I got to thinking

that if on this planet there is life at 3 miles down in an ocean living off fumerols there should be life somewhere else in this solar system. Niffty stuff I say.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3768
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
 Like all claims, you need

 Like all claims, you need to follow the money to see if it is valid.

The fact is there is zero evidence that life could exist elsewhere in our solar system or anywhere. But if scientists said this, there goes their funding. They are thousand time more likely to get mission funding if they sell it as a search for life rather than what it should be, just a search to find out what is there.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Actually there is literally

Actually there is literally mountains of evidence to show that life could live elsewhere in the solar system. There is simply no evidence that it does.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3768
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:Actually there

Vastet wrote:
Actually there is literally mountains of evidence to show that life could live elsewhere in the solar system. There is simply no evidence that it does.

So says scientists seeking research grants, mission funding and publicity. Another scam like global warming where the solution is to give them more money to study this.

We heard the same thing with Mars which shows no signs of life. Mars has an environment closer to earth's than either of these places.

I'm not saying don't explore these places. But there needs to be public skepticism of scientists that rely on the public to pay their bills. The NSF has become an insiders club a joke because of this.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Old Seer
Theist
Posts: 1520
Joined: 2011-11-12
User is offlineOffline
It wouldn't be logical

EXC wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Actually there is literally mountains of evidence to show that life could live elsewhere in the solar system. There is simply no evidence that it does.

So says scientists seeking research grants, mission funding and publicity. Another scam like global warming where the solution is to give them more money to study this.

We heard the same thing with Mars which shows no signs of life. Mars has an environment closer to earth's than either of these places.

I'm not saying don't explore these places. But there needs to be public skepticism of scientists that rely on the public to pay their bills. The NSF has become an insiders club a joke because of this.

 

To acquire grant funds for studying something that isn't true. By now they would know if global warming is or isn't. It's a no gainer for them to get money for no useful reason unless they're transfering it to their own personal bank accounts.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
EXC wrote:So says scientists

EXC wrote:
So says scientists seeking research grants, mission funding and publicity. Another scam like global warming where the solution is to give them more money to study this.

Yay more ridiculous and obviously false assertions.

EXC wrote:
We heard the same thing with Mars which shows no signs of life. Mars has an environment closer to earth's than either of these places.

Lol we haven't even scratched the surface of Mars. The book is far from closed. There could very well yet be life there.

Also, Mars is in no way more similar to Earth than the moons mentioned here. There's barely any water on Mars' surface. Europa has an ocean with more water than all the oceans on Earth combined. Last I checked, Mars doesn't even have lakes.

Are you literally incapable of saying anything true? Or do you just make everything up as you say it? rofl

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3768
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:EXC wrote:So

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
So says scientists seeking research grants, mission funding and publicity. Another scam like global warming where the solution is to give them more money to study this.
Yay more ridiculous and obviously false assertions.
EXC wrote:
We heard the same thing with Mars which shows no signs of life. Mars has an environment closer to earth's than either of these places.
Lol we haven't even scratched the surface of Mars. The book is far from closed. There could very well yet be life there. Also, Mars is in no way more similar to Earth than the moons mentioned here. There's barely any water on Mars' surface. Europa has an ocean with more water than all the oceans on Earth combined. Last I checked, Mars doesn't even have lakes. Are you literally incapable of saying anything true? Or do you just make everything up as you say it? rofl

They are lakes of methane, not water on these moons. They are nothing at all like earth and there is no reason to think life may exist, except to extract funding.

The book is not closed on the Abrahamic god either. It's proving a negative. But there is no reason to believe in any god or that life may exist on anywhere else in our solar system. Their evidence for life on these moons sounds like the evidence for Noah's ark.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3768
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Old Seer wrote: To acquire

Old Seer wrote:

 

To acquire grant funds for studying something that isn't true. By now they would know if global warming is or isn't. It's a no gainer for them to get money for no useful reason unless they're transfering it to their own personal bank accounts.

The get grants to study more, they get to keep their cushy jobs at universities.

I'm not a global warming denier, I am a global warming doubter. There is a difference.

I'm not sure about anthorpogenic climate change. But I am sure the science has been hijacked by people with a financial and political power motivation.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
EXC wrote:They are lakes of

EXC wrote:
They are lakes of methane, not water on these moons.

Thank you for again demonstrating your absolute ignorance. Both the moons mentioned here are covered in water, not methane. Titan has methane lakes, Europa has a water ocean. Encilidus also.

EXC wrote:
They are nothing at all like earth and there is no reason to think life may exist, except to extract funding.

You are wrong in so many ways a whole novel could be written to mock your ignorance.

EXC wrote:
The book is not closed on the Abrahamic god either.

Yes, it is. The abrahamic gods have been thoroughly disproved. It is god or gods in general for which there will always remain a question.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
EXC wrote:Old Seer

EXC wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

 

To acquire grant funds for studying something that isn't true. By now they would know if global warming is or isn't. It's a no gainer for them to get money for no useful reason unless they're transfering it to their own personal bank accounts.

The get grants to study more, they get to keep their cushy jobs at universities.

I'm not a global warming denier, I am a global warming doubter. There is a difference.

I'm not sure about anthorpogenic climate change. But I am sure the science has been hijacked by people with a financial and political power motivation.

Yeah, oil companies. lmfao.
Anyone who thinks a university position is so valuable as to have 97% of all the scientists in the field agreeing on lying in order to retain that position is stupid beyond words. Every climate scientist combined multiplied 10 times over doesn't pull in 1% of what any major oil company does. Amazing how you can be smart enough to embrace the logic of following the money but so stupid that you follow nickles and dimes while ignoring millions.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
For the sake of anyone who

For the sake of anyone who doesn't know, Europa is easily the most Earth-like body in the solar system.

It has an atmosphere, which is fairly common.

It has a magnetic field, which is rare. It technically borrows Jupiters field, conducted through the salt water ocean, but it's probably even more stable than ours.

It has stable liquid water, which is incredibly rare. Only 3 bodies in the solar system are known to have large bodies of water. Of the three, the Earth actually has the smallest oceans.

It has plate tectonics, which has only been observed on Earth and Europa. Nothing else in the solar system has plate tectonics, so far as has yet been seen.

There are only two categories I'm aware of in which Europa doesn't resemble Earth as much as other bodies.
In size, it is slightly smaller than our moon. There are 5 moons and 3 planets that more resemble the Earth in size.
In weather, the only other body in the solar system known to experience precipitation is Titan. Where it rains methane. Now as far as I know methane could perhaps take the part of water in the formation of life, but it would be a lot different than the life we know and can identify easily, so looking for life there isn't a good place to start. More like the last place you look before giving up.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3768
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
 If life was so easily

 If life was so easily formed on a planet or moon that it happened twice in the same solar system, we would expect that we would have been contacted by an alien civilizaiton already, but the universe is silent. Also science can come close to creating life from random mixtures of chemicals and conditions. The evidence seems to be we are alone in the universe.

Also, the evidence continues to build for the mutiverse theory of the cosmos and the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. These these theories are consistent with life existing on just a single planet in our visible universe. If life existed elsewhere, it would likely be in a parallel universe but not the one we see.

So if we wanted to look for life, we should look in other universes, not our tiny little solar system.

http://secondnexus.com/technology-and-innovation/large-hadron-collider-scientists-hope-make-contact-parallel-universe/

Maybe funding should go to physics research rather than a wild goose chase of life on Europa.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
EXC wrote: If life was so

EXC wrote:
 If life was so easily formed on a planet or moon that it happened twice in the same solar system, we would expect that we would have been contacted by an alien civilizaiton already,

That's exactly the same bullshit argument theists use to attempt to prove god exists. It is completely ignorant of dozens of known facts, and presupposes a number of things about intelligent life that we have no evidence to support.

The fact is that even if the galaxy is teeming with life, that doesn't mean any of it is intelligent. Another fact is that unless an intelligent species has already been wandering the galaxy for more than a hundred thousand years, we are extremely unlikely to have any evidence of them to find.
A most important fact is that evidence of us has only travelled about 150 light years, out of 100,000. It's literally exactly the same thing as standing in the middle of Antarctica, looking around, seeing nothing but ice and snow, and concluding the entire planet must be lifeless.

EXC wrote:
Also, the evidence continues to build for the mutiverse theory of the cosmos and the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. These these theories are consistent with life existing on just a single planet in our visible universe. If life existed elsewhere, it would likely be in a parallel universe but not the one we see.

That is patently ridiculous. A multiverse's existence has absolutely no bearing on the habitability of our universe. It is in fact far more likely that there is other life in our universe than that there could be life in any other universe.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3768
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:EXC wrote: If

Vastet wrote:
EXC wrote:
 If life was so easily formed on a planet or moon that it happened twice in the same solar system, we would expect that we would have been contacted by an alien civilizaiton already,
That's exactly the same bullshit argument theists use to attempt to prove god exists. It is completely ignorant of dozens of known facts, and presupposes a number of things about intelligent life that we have no evidence to support. The fact is that even if the galaxy is teeming with life, that doesn't mean any of it is intelligent. Another fact is that unless an intelligent species has already been wandering the galaxy for more than a hundred thousand years, we are extremely unlikely to have any evidence of them to find. A most important fact is that evidence of us has only travelled about 150 light years, out of 100,000. It's literally exactly the same thing as standing in the middle of Antarctica, looking around, seeing nothing but ice and snow, and concluding the entire planet must be lifeless.

The Milky way is just 100,000 light years in size. Has Half a trillion stars. So if our solar system has 2 worlds with life, we'd expect around a trillion in our galaxy. Plus other galaxies are close enough to send out radio signals, that could have reached us.

If our universe is teaming with life, why is earth the only planet out of that has so far made creatures capable of interstelluar communication? We are the one in trillion cabable of radio astronomy.

A more reasonable explaination is that the conditions for life are exceedingly rare. Our universe has just one place where life formed. But there are countless or infinite universes, so life formed in some of them since there are so many universes. This is something Dawkins discussed.

 

 

 

EXC wrote:
Also, the evidence continues to build for the mutiverse theory of the cosmos and the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. These these theories are consistent with life existing on just a single planet in our visible universe. If life existed elsewhere, it would likely be in a parallel universe but not the one we see.
That is patently ridiculous. A multiverse's existence has absolutely no bearing on the habitability of our universe. It is in fact far more likely that there is other life in our universe than that there could be life in any other universe.

Yes it does because we know the condtions that formed life are excidingly rare. Life formed because there were so many universes with variable conditions, eventually the right formula for life was hit upon.

It is just like if you play the lottery enough times eventually you win the super jackpot.

Your theory is that when someone wins the lottery, we should expect to find someone else in their family that also won. These scientists looking for life in our little solar system are wishful thinkers.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
EXC wrote:The Milky way is

EXC wrote:
The Milky way is just 100,000 light years in size. Has Half a trillion stars. So if our solar system has 2 worlds with life, we'd expect around a trillion in our galaxy.

No. For one thing, finding life even on all 8 planets and 15 moons to boot wouldn't say squat about the chances of finding life throughout the galaxy. Simply because it would be most likely that it only actually formed on one or two, and was subsequently spread through the system by impacts.

EXC wrote:
Plus other galaxies are close enough to send out radio signals, that could have reached us.

Not unless they sent that radio signal millions of years ago. The closest true galaxy is Andromeda, 2.5 million light years away. Anyone in Andromeda right now looking at Earth wouldn't see any intelligent life. Even satellite dwarf galaxies are at least 25,000 light years away. The chances of us being able to detect any intelligent life anywhere in the universe is incredibly small, even if intelligent life is as common as hydrogen (which is impossible).

EXC wrote:
A more reasonable explaination is that the conditions for life are exceedingly rare. Our universe has just one place where life formed. But there are countless or infinite universes, so life formed in some of them since there are so many universes. This is something Dawkins discussed.

Dawkins should stick to biology. The conditions necessary for life have been observed dozens of times over. In our own solar system, outside our solar system, outside our galaxy.

We are absolutely incapable of detecting life outside our solar system, so why the lack of evidence of life has any meaning to anyone is beyond me. Anyone with half a brain and a bit of knowledge could determine that it would be extremely unlikely we would have found life elsewhere by now. Maybe in a few years when we start finding thousands of confirmed planets a week instead of one or two potential candidates for planets, and we have satellites capable of determining the elements and temperatures of planets lightyears away, we'll be in a position to detect life. But right now we aren't there yet.

EXC wrote:
If our universe is teaming with life, why is earth the only planet out of that has so far made creatures capable of interstelluar communication? We are the one in trillion cabable of radio astronomy.

A ridiculous and unsupported assumption that beautifully characterises your ignorance of radio, astronomy, relativity, societal evolution, and simple arithmetic. There could be a billion radio using species in our galaxy right now and we wouldn't have a clue it was happening. And none of them would have a clue about us.

EXC wrote:
Yes it does because we know the condtions that formed life are excidingly rare.

No it doesn't, and the conditions are not rare. The conditions are common.

EXC wrote:
Your theory is that when someone wins the lottery, we should expect to find someone else in their family that also won. These scientists looking for life in our little solar system are wishful thinkers.

No, my theory is that other members of the species won. And sure enough they have. Other members of the family would be like finding other intelligent life on Earth. Ironically we've done that already, so in both ways I win.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3768
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:Dawkins should

Vastet wrote:
Dawkins should stick to biology.

WTF, I thought life was biology.

If our galaxy was teaming with life around billions of other stars. We'd would expect some of them to have more advanced technology than we preseently have and many would have evolved earlier than us. But, radio astronomers have been looking for decades for signs of transmissions, absolutely nothing.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Pre existing life is

Pre existing life is biology. Life formation is chemistry. Conditions for life is astronomy. Dawkins is clearly ignorant of both chemistry and astronomy in order to claim that life in the universe is rare.

EXC wrote:
If our galaxy was teaming with life around billions of other stars. We'd would expect some of them to have more advanced technology than we preseently have and many would have evolved earlier than us.

True.

EXC wrote:
But, radio astronomers have been looking for decades for signs of transmissions, absolutely nothing.

Also to be expected. If our society is any example, an intelligent species can be expected to have an incfrease in radio frequency transmission for a few decades, followed by a massive increase in efficiency that reduces the transmissions being sent into space. At present, we send less than 1% of the radio signals into space that we used to back in the 50's and 70's, and with less power to boot. The radio phase of a civilisation appears to last only about a century, after which point there aren't any signals to detect. It is exceptionally unlikely that a species would happen to start using radio at exactly the right moment for us to detect it.

Furthermore, a few decades of watching radio signals translates to a few tens of light years. Out of 100,000 in our galaxies radius. That means we have an ear to less than a hundreth of a percent of the galaxy. The rise of intelligent species would have to happen daily for us to reasonably expect to hear evidence of another intelligent species with the extremely small sampling we currently have. If in 50,000 years we still haven't heard anything, then we'll have sufficient information to say it is unlikely that the milky way harbours other intelligent life. Not before.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3768
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:. If our

Vastet wrote:
. If our society is any example, an intelligent species can be expected to have an incfrease in radio frequency transmission for a few decades, followed by a massive increase in efficiency that reduces the transmissions being sent into space. At present, we send less than 1% of the radio signals into space that we used to back in the 50's and 70's, and with less power to boot. The radio phase of a civilisation appears to last only about a century, after which point there aren't any signals to detect. It is exceptionally unlikely that a species would happen to start using radio at exactly the right moment for us to detect it. Furthermore, a few decades of watching radio signals translates to a few tens of light years. Out of 100,000 in our galaxies radius. That means we have an ear to less than a hundreth of a percent of the galaxy. The rise of intelligent species would have to happen daily for us to reasonably expect to hear evidence of another intelligent species with the extremely small sampling we currently have. If in 50,000 years we still haven't heard anything, then we'll have sufficient information to say it is unlikely that the milky way harbours other intelligent life. Not before.

Why would an advanced civilizaiont loose it's desire to communicate with other worlds. If they are listening, they would also be transmitting. We a send prime number sequences to star clusters to let them know we are there.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/02/21/space-seti-aliens-language_sp08-cx_de_1024aliens.html

Why would we stop, unless we blow ourselves up?

That is one theory I've heard is that civilation advances, then they discover E=mc2 and then war kills them all.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Don't bother linking to

Don't bother linking to Forbes, they don't provide sufficient quality content for me to pay them a cent. So I can't read links to Forbes.

Why would they be transmitting? We aren't, and we're an advanced civilisation. Oh sure we sent out a couple radio bursts here and there, but actually transmitting a solid, powerful signal in 360º for any period of time whatsoever? No. We have never done that.

Many of our brightest minds have said it's risky to transmit our position and existence, and it is. There's absolutely no reason to believe another advanced civilisation would welcome our presence. It is strategically brainless to announce our position for all to see when we don't know anything about who might detect us. What if an intelligent species went into space a billion years ago and goes around wiping out all life wherever they encounter it? You can't even say it's unlikely because there are humans who would do exactly that, and if some of us would then it's almost guaranteed there's at least one species out there with such an agenda.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3768
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Vastet wrote:Don't bother

Vastet wrote:
Don't bother linking to Forbes, they don't provide sufficient quality content for me to pay them a cent. So I can't read links to Forbes. Why would they be transmitting? We aren't, and we're an advanced civilisation. Oh sure we sent out a couple radio bursts here and there, but actually transmitting a solid, powerful signal in 360º for any period of time whatsoever? No. We have never done that. Many of our brightest minds have said it's risky to transmit our position and existence, and it is. There's absolutely no reason to believe another advanced civilisation would welcome our presence. It is strategically brainless to announce our position for all to see when we don't know anything about who might detect us. What if an intelligent species went into space a billion years ago and goes around wiping out all life wherever they encounter it? You can't even say it's unlikely because there are humans who would do exactly that, and if some of us would then it's almost guaranteed there's at least one species out there with such an agenda.

I would think if they had such advanced technology, they would have already sent probes to all the solar systems in the galaxy by now. Maybe they have telescopes powerful enough to see the earth. We are almost at the point of being able to see planets in nearby solar systems.

If they have such advanced technology cabable of interstelluar travel and wiping out life on earth, they would be able to detect all our terrestrial radio signals. So you think earth needs to go quite to keep from being detected?

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13070
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
How exactly would any

How exactly would any species just magically send probes to every solar system? Also how, considering that solar systems are forming daily?

So what if they can see Earth? Unless they are within 200 light years they wouldn't see us, or our radio signals..

You're assuming that advanced technology equates to intergalactic travel, when such a thing is impossible so far as we know. Maybe they will see us... in 50,000 years. Maybe they will come as soon as they see us. Maybe they can even go light speed. That would mean we can expect their arrival in 100,000 years.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.