Obnoxious is putting it politely.

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Obnoxious is putting it politely.

 Once again, Christians are getting upset that non Christians are insisting on neutrality . This time, they are getting buthurt over bibles being removed from hotel rooms. But if you are staying in government lodging, why is it impossible to bring your own? Is it impossible to stick a book in your suitcase?

If you are recieving public tax payers dollars, yes removing the bible is correct. But even with private hotels why would you assume what the customer wants? I think if you own a hotel, sure, have them in the office and only put them in the room on demand.  But even then, is it impossible for the customer to bring their own? I smell another Starbucks fake persecution complex going on. 

 

 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-group-gideon-bibles-hotel-149957/

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 I thought you were talking

 I thought you were talking about yourself when I saw the title. But I agree, FFRF is extremely obnoxious and goes around looking to get offended. That is why I ceased giving them money years ago. Limiting speech is never better, even if that speech is wrong. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: I

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I thought you were talking about yourself when I saw the title. But I agree, FFRF is extremely obnoxious and goes around looking to get offended. That is why I ceased giving them money years ago. Limiting speech is never better, even if that speech is wrong. 

NO, they are doing the right thing. Again, these same Christians would hate living in Saudi Arabia where religion is everywhere and the country has an official religion.

We don't need as a society to be gang tagging all public or private institutions with a gang symbol. Freedom of religion has to include freedom from religion. 

You won't hear FFRF say that someone cant bring their own bible into the room while they are using it. Oppression is what North Korea does. You leave a bible you bought in their room they don't simply remove it, you can get arrested. All FFRF is saying is the government is not there to act as a billboard favoring one religion over another. 

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 Thomas Jefferson......

 Thomas Jefferson...... "

Thomas Jefferson — 'I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another."

You would not feel the same way if America was a Muslim majority and put only Korans in government funded lodging.

Again, even in the private sector, no body should object to someone bringing in any holy book to a room and taking it with them when they leave. But with government you have two choices, you agree to let it all in "put every holy book in the room" or agree to keep it neutral. But Christians don't want that, no religion wants that. What religion wants, at best is for the minority to accept their place at the back of the bus. Since you cannot rid the world of that mentality, as the founders wisely knew, you can insist on neutrality.

"No religious test" is in our oath of office. Yet these Same Christians, not all, but those who'd object to the removal, also threw a fit when Keith Ellison, a Muslim congressman swore in on a Koran once owned by Jefferson.

I would not object to even a private hotel putting a bible in the room on request. But if your business is to provide lodging don't assume what the patron believes.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:Beyond Saving

Brian37 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I thought you were talking about yourself when I saw the title. But I agree, FFRF is extremely obnoxious and goes around looking to get offended. That is why I ceased giving them money years ago. Limiting speech is never better, even if that speech is wrong. 

NO, they are doing the right thing. Again, these same Christians would hate living in Saudi Arabia where religion is everywhere and the country has an official religion.

I hate living in a country where any speech is suppressed.

 

Quote:

We don't need as a society to be gang tagging all public or private institutions with a gang symbol. Freedom of religion has to include freedom from religion. 

No. It doesn't. No more than freedom of color means freedom from color. Should we just eliminate all those black people so we don't have to see them? I find their removal of free speech far more abhorrent than a bible sitting in a drawer. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you want to leave your own little book in the hotel, by all means go ahead. More speech is > less speech EVERY SINGLE MOTHER FUCKING TIME. And fuck any statist pig like you who is going to use government power to destroy any speech just because you don't like it. That is why I am on this site and not other atheist forums, because here even the most vile nuts have been free to spout their bullshit without editing. 

 

Quote:

You won't hear FFRF say that someone cant bring their own bible into the room while they are using it. Oppression is what North Korea does. You leave a bible you bought in their room they don't simply remove it, you can get arrested. All FFRF is saying is the government is not there to act as a billboard favoring one religion over another. 

You don't have a clue what North Korea does. Nor is that the line I think we should draw between oppression and non-oppression. You can oppress a hell of a lot before you are as bad as North Korea. Being slightly better than them, does not mean you are good.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I thought you were talking about yourself when I saw the title. But I agree, FFRF is extremely obnoxious and goes around looking to get offended. That is why I ceased giving them money years ago. Limiting speech is never better, even if that speech is wrong. 

NO, they are doing the right thing. Again, these same Christians would hate living in Saudi Arabia where religion is everywhere and the country has an official religion.

I hate living in a country where any speech is suppressed.

 

Quote:

We don't need as a society to be gang tagging all public or private institutions with a gang symbol. Freedom of religion has to include freedom from religion. 

No. It doesn't. No more than freedom of color means freedom from color. Should we just eliminate all those black people so we don't have to see them? I find their removal of free speech far more abhorrent than a bible sitting in a drawer. If you don't like it, don't read it. If you want to leave your own little book in the hotel, by all means go ahead. More speech is > less speech EVERY SINGLE MOTHER FUCKING TIME. And fuck any statist pig like you who is going to use government power to destroy any speech just because you don't like it. That is why I am on this site and not other atheist forums, because here even the most vile nuts have been free to spout their bullshit without editing. 

 

Quote:

You won't hear FFRF say that someone cant bring their own bible into the room while they are using it. Oppression is what North Korea does. You leave a bible you bought in their room they don't simply remove it, you can get arrested. All FFRF is saying is the government is not there to act as a billboard favoring one religion over another. 

You don't have a clue what North Korea does. Nor is that the line I think we should draw between oppression and non-oppression. You can oppress a hell of a lot before you are as bad as North Korea. Being slightly better than them, does not mean you are good.

"Black" is a skin tone, not a religion. You are stupidly paranoid, nothing more. Again, there  ARE oppressed minorities, depending on location. Christians, minority Muslims, gays and atheists, depending on location, are oppressed in the Middle east. It is not oppression in the west to say that the majority doesn't get to use government as a billboard at the exclusion of all others. Now again, unless they are willing to put other holy books next to the bible, then they are creating a social pecking order. Theocracies use government as a billboard. America is not a theocracy. Goverment neutrality is not oppression.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote: Thomas

Brian37 wrote:

 Thomas Jefferson...... "

Thomas Jefferson — 'I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another."


Yes, he never said a word about freedom FROM religion.

 

Quote:

You would not feel the same way if America was a Muslim majority and put only Korans in government funded lodging.

If I found a Koran in my drawer, it wouldn't bother me one bit. In fact, I'd probably be pretty happy because I've never read the Koran cover to cover, it would give me an excuse to read it. And I wouldn't fear that reading it is suddenly going to turn me Muslim. 

 

Quote:

 But with government you have two choices, you agree to let it all in "put every holy book in the room" or agree to keep it neutral.

The big question is why our government is running a hotel. I find that more offensive than whatever books they decide to keep in the rooms. 

 

Quote:

But Christians don't want that, no religion wants that. What religion wants, at best is for the minority to accept their place at the back of the bus. Since you cannot rid the world of that mentality, as the founders wisely knew, you can insist on neutrality.

The founding fathers only insisted on neutrality in the eyes of the law.

 

Quote:

"No religious test" is in our oath of office.

No it isn't.

Quote:
 I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.

That is the ENTIRE oath. 

 

Quote:

Yet these Same Christians, not all, but those who'd object to the removal, also threw a fit when Keith Ellison, a Muslim congressman swore in on a Koran once owned by Jefferson. I would not object to even a private hotel putting a bible in the room on request. But if your business is to provide lodging don't assume what the patron believes.

They should be able to put whatever they want in the room. Who are you to go in with a gun and demand they remove it because you don't like it? That makes you no better than those who get mad at people swearing on Korans. If you don't like it, do something useful with your life and start a hotel that has zero bibles. Maybe you could even make it a chain if you think there is a market for it. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 Quote:government power to

 

Quote:

government power to destroy any speech just because you don't like it

Mcfly! It isnt about destroying speech. If I were politically correct I wouldn't be on this website, even in the private sector which is what this website is, privately owned.

Now again, this is about fairness, not denial of religion. You know damned well they would scream even if we left the bible in the rooms, if other holy books were put next to them.

It is no different then if a parent has two kids, they say share, or take the toy away. There is no oppression just a choice. In a secular society popularity is not a licence to use government to wink at one religion and deny the same venue to others.

It would be oppression if they were not allowed to bring their own bible in. It would be oppression if we outlawed private marquees of churches which can be viewed in passing on a public road. Both you and I vote, and a majority of that time we are electing Christians. Allowing Jews and Muslims to swear on a different holy book other than a bible is also not illegal. So again, unless the government is going to put Korans, Talmuds, Mormon, Scientology, Statues of Buddha, along side of those bibles, it is giving special rights to one at the exclusion of all others.

You are advocating a social pecking order, you are not protecting freedom of religion.

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Brian37 wrote: Mcfly! It

Brian37 wrote:

Mcfly! It isnt about destroying speech.

The bible is speech, it is in the rooms at the consent of whoever is running the hotel, and you want it removed. 


Quote:

If I were politically correct I wouldn't be on this website, even in the private sector which is what this website is, privately owned.

And you have that choice, because the government hasn't gotten involved in banning speech here yet. 

 

Quote:

Now again, this is about fairness, not denial of religion.

Freedom isn't about fairness. It is remarkably unfair how often you get torn to shreds until you abandon a thread. 

 

Quote:

You know damned well they would scream even if we left the bible in the rooms, if other holy books were put next to them.

Fine, let them scream. My position would be the exact same as it is against your screaming. You can scream all you want, and it is obnoxious, but I'm not going to shut you up. Nor am I going to appeal to the government to use their police power to shut you up.

 

Quote:

It is no different then if a parent has two kids, they say share, or take the toy away. There is no oppression just a choice.

Of course there is oppression. Parents are totalitarians and I don't think we should base government on parenting models. Citizens are adults, not children that need to be cared for and directed. 

 

Quote:

So again, unless the government is going to put Korans, Talmuds, Mormon, Scientology, Statues of Buddha, along side of those bibles, it is giving special rights to one at the exclusion of all others. You are advocating a social pecking order, you are not protecting freedom of religion.

The government isn't putting anything in anywhere. It is a private organization that is putting the bibles in hotels. If you wish to start an organization to put any other text in hotel rooms, good for you. Go raise the money, print the books and start asking hotel owners. When the Christians come along and try to shut you up, I will support you, just like I oppose you now. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 Quote:If I found a Koran

 

Quote:

If I found a Koran in my drawer, it wouldn't bother me one bit. In fact, I'd probably be pretty happy because I've never read the Koran cover to cover, it would give me an excuse to read it. And I wouldn't fear that reading it is suddenly going to turn me Muslim.

Don't hand me that bullshit. Neither would reading the bible. So why would you object to other books being put next to that bible?

Would you be willing to have a Koran along side that bible? Or you just going to say only the bible should be placed there? Because as you said, merely seeing either wont magically make you become a Muslim or a Christian.

360,000 privately owned houses of worship of every kind of religion you can think of in America, most of them you can see passing on public roads. No ban on the internet of privately owned religious websites is there? You go to public libraries and you don't see just one holy book, you have a variety. So what would make a hotel room so special as to only allow one holy book to be placed there?

Again, if it were a Koran being placed there these same Christians would flip out and I would agree. Let it all in, or keep it neutral.

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Brian37 wrote:Don't hand me

Brian37 wrote:

Don't hand me that bullshit. Neither would reading the bible.

And I've read the bible. Including the Gideon version provided for free in my hotel rooms. It was quite useful for me when I was messing with theists on this very site when I was living in hotels. It might surprise you, but I don't carry a bible with me. 

 

Quote:

So why would you object to other books being put next to that bible? Would you be willing to have a Koran along side that bible? Or you just going to say only the bible should be placed there?

I wouldn't as I have said numerous times in this very thread. More speech is ALWAYS better than less speech. ZERO exceptions. Even if that speech is offensive. I object to you appealing to the government to remove speech. 

 

Quote:

Because as you said, merely seeing either wont magically make you become a Muslim or a Christian. 360,000 privately owned houses of worship of every kind of religion you can think of in America, most of them you can see passing on public roads. No ban on the internet of privately owned religious websites is there? You go to public libraries and you don't see just one holy book, you have a variety. So what would make a hotel room so special as to only allow one holy book to be placed there?

 

Why is a hotel room so special that it is the only place you want regulated at gunpoint? Go ahead, buy a bunch of copies of your favorite Hitch or Dawkins book and distribute it to hotels. Nobody is stopping you. 

 

Quote:

Again, if it were a Koran being placed there these same Christians would flip out and I would agree. Let it all in, or keep it neutral.

So you agree with the Christnuts. I don't. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 What the fuck do guns have

 

What the fuck do guns have to do with this? Yes, government SHOULD inforce sharing when it comes to any public venue institution. Just like our government forced public schools to let in blacks. 

I'd use government force to allow all holy books in PUBLIC LIBRARIES if the library was insisting on only having one holy book. Just like I would force our military to allow more than just Christian Chaplins. Don't scream about more speech being good and say it is ok for one religion to monopolize government funded lodging. 

 

I AGREE more speech is better than less. YOU STUPIDLY DON'T UNDERSTAND CONTEXT. Public property is not there for one religion, or one political party, or one class, or one race. So if no holy book or holy icon or statue cant magically make somebody convert, then nobody should have a problem having a variety in that room, instead of just one version of one sect of one religion. NO FUCKING DIFFERENT THAN A PUBLIC LIBRARY.

You are stupidly and falsely accusing me of singling out Christianity. EVEN after I said public libraries, which would include state funded college libraries, have a variety of holy books, not just one version of one sect of a holy book. Publically funded lodging should not.

There is only one reason that Christians want that bible in publically funded lodging, and that is to have goverment act as their billboard. If a library would not be allowed to limit to one book from one religion, why should publically funded lodging be treated any different. 

Rights are not my issue, selection bias is. Like you said, more speech is always better than less. So again, put a variety in that room, or agree to keep the venue neutral. Libraries are much bigger than  bedroom so physically it is pragmatic to use that public venue. Museums would also be another public venue that is better suited to display both secular and religious exhibits, which they do. 

Do not mistake my objection on this particular issue as wanting to end religion. You are acting just as paranoid as you do about guns. Regulations as to time place and context matter, regulations are not outright bans. 

 

"This doesn't go here" is not the same as "don't do it at all". You also cannot speed through a red light. So again, if those Christians want that bible there, when a Muslim or Jew requests that their holy  books be placed next to them so they too have the same choice, those Christians cannot object to it. The problem is they will. So again, I would say it is better to treat that bedroom as a bedroom and not a billboard. If they don't have their own book to bring in, they can go to a PUBLIC library or even their own private Church. 

 

"More speech is good, but as long as only one book is put in the room" That is litterally what you are arguing and it is FUCKING ABSURD. The Constitution was not written for Christians only. 

 

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 You could not

 You could not pragmatically fit every version of every holy book in a nightstand. So if more speech is good, that is what you should do. Not limit it to one book. But since a nightstand isn't a bookshelf or a library, I say leave that variety in a public library. But one religion does not have the right to say "we get to put our book here, but nobody else can". Limiting one book in that bedroom is not promoting pluralism, it is giving special rights to one religion.

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Brian37 wrote:What the fuck

Brian37 wrote:

What the fuck do guns have to do with this? Yes, government SHOULD inforce sharing when it comes to any public venue institution. Just like our government forced public schools to let in blacks. 

Government was the vehicle that segregated blacks in the first place. Had freedom been allowed, it wouldn't have been the issue that it became. And so, because government used guns to segregate, it had to literally send in guys with guns to end it. 

 

Quote:

I'd use government force to allow all holy books in PUBLIC LIBRARIES if the library was insisting on only having one holy book.

Exactly. You don't hesistate to use government force for everything. I hold the crazy insane idea, you don't need guns to maintain a library. 

 

Quote:

Just like I would force our military to allow more than just Christian Chaplins. Don't scream about more speech being good and say it is ok for one religion to monopolize government funded lodging. 

You don't have to "force" the military to allow more than just Christian chaplins. They already allow any and all religions. Though if you want to just disband the military, I'm on board. 

 

Quote:
 

I AGREE more speech is better than less. YOU STUPIDLY DON'T UNDERSTAND CONTEXT. Public property is not there for one religion, or one political party, or one class, or one race. So if no holy book or holy icon or statue cant magically make somebody convert, then nobody should have a problem having a variety in that room, instead of just one version of one sect of one religion. NO FUCKING DIFFERENT THAN A PUBLIC LIBRARY.

The only person trying to reduce variety is you. There is one, you want none. If you want to add more, like I said, go ahead and do it. If you don't have the freedom of speech in public, what good is your freedom speaking where nobody can hear you? Even in North Korea you have the freedom to speak in private. The most tyrannical government can't hear the words you whisper in corners. We have a freedom of speech precisely to allow people to speak their political and religious views IN PUBLIC, and attempt to persuade people to their views IN PUBLIC. 

 

Quote:

You are stupidly and falsely accusing me of singling out Christianity. EVEN after I said public libraries, which would include state funded college libraries, have a variety of holy books, not just one version of one sect of a holy book. Publically funded lodging should not.

What is the difference between a library and lodging?

 

Quote:

There is only one reason that Christians want that bible in publically funded lodging, and that is to have goverment act as their billboard. If a library would not be allowed to limit to one book from one religion, why should publically funded lodging be treated any different. 

You are free to put in whatever book you desire. Go speak to the person who runs the hotel and pay for it. 

 

Quote:

Rights are not my issue, selection bias is. Like you said, more speech is always better than less. So again, put a variety in that room, or agree to keep the venue neutral. Libraries are much bigger than  bedroom so physically it is pragmatic to use that public venue. Museums would also be another public venue that is better suited to display both secular and religious exhibits, which they do. 

Obviously you don't give a shit about rights. You are an anti-freedom statist who wants to use police power to force everyone to do what you want. On that small piece of ideology, you are at least consistent. 

 

Quote:

Do not mistake my objection on this particular issue as wanting to end religion. You are acting just as paranoid as you do about guns. Regulations as to time place and context matter, regulations are not outright bans. 

 

Freedom of speech is the one freedom that might be more important than guns. 

 

Quote:
 

"More speech is good, but as long as only one book is put in the room" That is litterally what you are arguing and it is FUCKING ABSURD. The Constitution was not written for Christians only. 

 

No, I have not argued that. I have suggested multiple times that you donate your own books to hotels if it is that important to you. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:  You could

Brian37 wrote:

 You could not pragmatically fit every version of every holy book in a nightstand. So if more speech is good, that is what you should do. Not limit it to one book. But since a nightstand isn't a bookshelf or a library, I say leave that variety in a public library. But one religion does not have the right to say "we get to put our book here, but nobody else can". Limiting one book in that bedroom is not promoting pluralism, it is giving special rights to one religion.

You can pragmatically fit every version of every holy book that people donate to the hotel. Not that many people are willing to put their money where their mouth is. They would rather come in with government and shut somebody else up than go through the effort of speaking themselves. NOBODY has limited it to "one book", NOT A SINGLE FUCKING PERSON. As a matter of fact, next to the Gideon bible, it isn't uncommon to have delivery menus, a book from the local commerce association or other advertising. There is no reason to suddenly flip out because some of that advertising happens to be religious in nature. In larger cities, if it gets to be too much, they put it out front in the lobby. No reason a hotel couldn't do similar if somehow it ever became a problem. Hell, I've been to hotels that have a decent sized library of donated books. Few hotels will say "no". 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote: Once again,

Brian37 wrote:

 Once again, Christians are getting upset that non Christians are insisting on neutrality . This time, they are getting buthurt over bibles being removed from hotel rooms. But if you are staying in government lodging, why is it impossible to bring your own? Is it impossible to stick a book in your suitcase?

If you are recieving public tax payers dollars, yes removing the bible is correct. But even with private hotels why would you assume what the customer wants? I think if you own a hotel, sure, have them in the office and only put them in the room on demand.  But even then, is it impossible for the customer to bring their own? I smell another Starbucks fake persecution complex going on. 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-group-gideon-bibles-hotel-149957/

I know this is off subject, but I love hearing christians say that the bible is the most successful book ever printed, while the truth is that it is the most printed book. The most successful books make money from sales, such as a Harry Potter book. The bible is printed and given away for free making it the most unsuccessful book ever.

I could see the argument that the book has been used as a tool to suck in people to the religion but honestly most christians are poor and live in 3rd world countries.


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well, to be fair, most

well, to be fair, most people in general are poor and live in third world countries.


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 Once again, Christians are getting upset that non Christians are insisting on neutrality . This time, they are getting buthurt over bibles being removed from hotel rooms. But if you are staying in government lodging, why is it impossible to bring your own? Is it impossible to stick a book in your suitcase?

If you are recieving public tax payers dollars, yes removing the bible is correct. But even with private hotels why would you assume what the customer wants? I think if you own a hotel, sure, have them in the office and only put them in the room on demand.  But even then, is it impossible for the customer to bring their own? I smell another Starbucks fake persecution complex going on. 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-group-gideon-bibles-hotel-149957/

I know this is off subject, but I love hearing christians say that the bible is the most successful book ever printed, while the truth is that it is the most printed book. The most successful books make money from sales, such as a Harry Potter book. The bible is printed and given away for free making it the most unsuccessful book ever.

I could see the argument that the book has been used as a tool to suck in people to the religion but honestly most christians are poor and live in 3rd world countries.

Christianity certianly isn't limited to poor countries, most 7 billion humans are lucky to be just above the poverty line, but there still is a gigantic portion of humanity that is poor, and those are not good conditions to foster peace. Some here think it is their fault. I think poverty is a blight on our species. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 You could not pragmatically fit every version of every holy book in a nightstand. So if more speech is good, that is what you should do. Not limit it to one book. But since a nightstand isn't a bookshelf or a library, I say leave that variety in a public library. But one religion does not have the right to say "we get to put our book here, but nobody else can". Limiting one book in that bedroom is not promoting pluralism, it is giving special rights to one religion.

You can pragmatically fit every version of every holy book that people donate to the hotel. Not that many people are willing to put their money where their mouth is. They would rather come in with government and shut somebody else up than go through the effort of speaking themselves. NOBODY has limited it to "one book", NOT A SINGLE FUCKING PERSON. As a matter of fact, next to the Gideon bible, it isn't uncommon to have delivery menus, a book from the local commerce association or other advertising. There is no reason to suddenly flip out because some of that advertising happens to be religious in nature. In larger cities, if it gets to be too much, they put it out front in the lobby. No reason a hotel couldn't do similar if somehow it ever became a problem. Hell, I've been to hotels that have a decent sized library of donated books. Few hotels will say "no". 

Way to miss the point again. This is about Gideon doing something others don't do. If they do it, others who publish other holy  books,  have to have under equal protecting the same opportunity to put their books in there too. That sounds nice to make that attempt, but it always opens a needless can of worms. You talked about some hotels having decent sized libraries, but again, that is NOT  a room by itself. I am not even talking about the privat sector, but we can do that seprately. In this case it is more about government built lodging like a state park or military base. Those beddings are not libraries. 

I would be oppression ANYONE if I said, "You cant have your, bible, Torah, Koran, Buddah statue, to bring in here" And again, if you are willing to donate books, a library, public, state, college all will accept those donated books. If the public property has a library, that is where it should go. 

 

I am not against say, a private bookstor selling holy books, I've been to quite a few in my time, but even they sell a diverse selection of worldwide religions and even atheist books. Time place and context matter. None of that says "never".

You start getting selective about only one book by one religion being the only one in the room, you cause needless problems we don't need to be focused on. There is pleanty of public funded libraries that include a variety of holy books. And there are pleanty of private bookstores that also sell a variety of holy books. Not to mention you have the right to go into any religious house of worship and 99% of the time they will have extra copies of their holy book on hand that they would be willing to give you. 

 

We don't really dissagree on anything but how to arrange things. Again, "that really isn't a smart thing to do " isn't saying "ban religion".

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 Once again, Christians are getting upset that non Christians are insisting on neutrality . This time, they are getting buthurt over bibles being removed from hotel rooms. But if you are staying in government lodging, why is it impossible to bring your own? Is it impossible to stick a book in your suitcase?

If you are recieving public tax payers dollars, yes removing the bible is correct. But even with private hotels why would you assume what the customer wants? I think if you own a hotel, sure, have them in the office and only put them in the room on demand.  But even then, is it impossible for the customer to bring their own? I smell another Starbucks fake persecution complex going on. 

http://www.christianpost.com/news/atheist-group-gideon-bibles-hotel-149957/

I know this is off subject, but I love hearing christians say that the bible is the most successful book ever printed, while the truth is that it is the most printed book. The most successful books make money from sales, such as a Harry Potter book. The bible is printed and given away for free making it the most unsuccessful book ever.

I could see the argument that the book has been used as a tool to suck in people to the religion but honestly most christians are poor and live in 3rd world countries.

Christianity certianly isn't limited to poor countries, most 7 billion humans are lucky to be just above the poverty line, but there still is a gigantic portion of humanity that is poor, and those are not good conditions to foster peace. Some here think it is their fault. I think poverty is a blight on our species. 

One big strawman.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Brian37 wrote:Beyond Saving

Brian37 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 You could not pragmatically fit every version of every holy book in a nightstand. So if more speech is good, that is what you should do. Not limit it to one book. But since a nightstand isn't a bookshelf or a library, I say leave that variety in a public library. But one religion does not have the right to say "we get to put our book here, but nobody else can". Limiting one book in that bedroom is not promoting pluralism, it is giving special rights to one religion.

You can pragmatically fit every version of every holy book that people donate to the hotel. Not that many people are willing to put their money where their mouth is. They would rather come in with government and shut somebody else up than go through the effort of speaking themselves. NOBODY has limited it to "one book", NOT A SINGLE FUCKING PERSON. As a matter of fact, next to the Gideon bible, it isn't uncommon to have delivery menus, a book from the local commerce association or other advertising. There is no reason to suddenly flip out because some of that advertising happens to be religious in nature. In larger cities, if it gets to be too much, they put it out front in the lobby. No reason a hotel couldn't do similar if somehow it ever became a problem. Hell, I've been to hotels that have a decent sized library of donated books. Few hotels will say "no". 

Way to miss the point again. This is about Gideon doing something others don't do. If they do it, others who publish other holy  books,  have to have under equal protecting the same opportunity to put their books in there too. That sounds nice to make that attempt, but it always opens a needless can of worms. You talked about some hotels having decent sized libraries, but again, that is NOT  a room by itself. I am not even talking about the privat sector, but we can do that seprately. In this case it is more about government built lodging like a state park or military base. Those beddings are not libraries. 

I would be oppression ANYONE if I said, "You cant have your, bible, Torah, Koran, Buddah statue, to bring in here" And again, if you are willing to donate books, a library, public, state, college all will accept those donated books. If the public property has a library, that is where it should go. 

 

I am not against say, a private bookstor selling holy books, I've been to quite a few in my time, but even they sell a diverse selection of worldwide religions and even atheist books. Time place and context matter. None of that says "never".

You start getting selective about only one book by one religion being the only one in the room, you cause needless problems we don't need to be focused on. There is pleanty of public funded libraries that include a variety of holy books. And there are pleanty of private bookstores that also sell a variety of holy books. Not to mention you have the right to go into any religious house of worship and 99% of the time they will have extra copies of their holy book on hand that they would be willing to give you. 

 

We don't really dissagree on anything but how to arrange things. Again, "that really isn't a smart thing to do " isn't saying "ban religion".

The typical array of red herrings and strawmen. Brian has no respect for individual rights and would force his beliefs on everyone if he could. Just like a theist extremist.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.