Paris attacks today..... Turn on your international or cable news,

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Paris attacks today..... Turn on your international or cable news,

Multiple terrorists coordinated attacks in Paris

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34814203

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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What ever group is

What ever group is responsible are cowards. I do not agree with the fact that innocent civilians are killed during war but many times it is an issue of bad intelligence or mistaken identity. Setting up bombs or walking in to a concert to shoot unarmed people is deliberately cowardly.

I find it ridiculous that if they wanted to punish a country for taking part in a war or doing an act against their home country then attacks in this manner only resolve to push the country further in to fighting more rather than withdraw their forces.


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If there's any real brains

If there's any real brains behind it that's actually an intelligent strategy. "Terrorists" are no more likely to be defeated at home than any western power.
There is a chance Russia or China could pull it off, but only if NATO allied powers and the UN stayed completely out of it (which isn't remotely likely).
Getting the west to commit more resources to an impossible task is a very effective move, especially in the long run. It increases your own manpower as disenfranchised locals decide you're the lesser of two evils, and allows you greater access to your enemies populace to drive sympathy, donations, and recruitment from abroad.

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 Just called a former co

 Just called a former co worker. She has family in France. She didn't even know. She doesn't watch the news. I guess that is good because if her family had been affected soemone would have called her. Still sucks. My species can be so cruel.

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 Some are calling for a

 Some are calling for a global response, and yea, you can understand it, nobody likes to be sucker punched. But what will that do? Will it work? I have to admit, considering the mess Bush left, and even Obama having a hard time, would a global response help, or would it make things worse? 

 

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 What would some here,

 What would some here, anyone, recommend to tamp down or completely stop stuff like this? Outside our infighting I think we can agree shit like this needs to be drastically reduced. I am at loss as to how to move forward. 

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Brian37 wrote: What would

Brian37 wrote:

 What would some here, anyone, recommend to tamp down or completely stop stuff like this?

You can't. Terrorism isn't a new thing, it has existed forever (calling it terrorism is relatively new). The thing is, that historically, the response to terrorism has often led to far worse situations. You allow a small group of people to completely alter and dictate global relations. WWI for example, was started because of a small group of young radicals who decided to commit an assassination. The killing itself wasn't really a big deal, however the response to it led to 15 million odd deaths and put Germany directly on the track to collapse and thus leave a power gap for a young and ambitious politician named Adolph Hitler. If Austria-Hungary didn't crack down on Serbians so hard, often looking for terrorists in places they probably didn't exist, WWI doesn't happen. And quite potentially, WWII never does either. The world would look like a very, very different place. 

I would argue that the response to 9/11 was equally kneejerk and while not as grand a clusterfuck as WWI because the US is a much more powerful country than Austria-Hungary was, our response has killed many thousands more civilians than the handful of nuts managed and it has created a potentially much more dangerous nutty organization in ISIS. Not to mention the large number of liberties that we have lost as citizens here at home, and despite that loss an inability to actually prevent any terrorist attack that wasn't devised by the FBI. 

These attacks don't just occur out of the blue. Like the Ferguson riots, which were set off by the shooting of a guy who was apparently a real scumbag and was probably perfectly justified. The actual details don't matter because there is real, consistent and long term friction that was just waiting for a spark. France has been extremely anti-muslim, has had large problems with anti-muslim racism and has gone so far as to pass laws directly aimed at repressing muslims. When some 30 mosques were firebombed, the government did nothing, it wasn't labled terrorism and most of the attackers were never arrested. Even a moderate, peaceful muslim is going to chafe at the climate in France. And that just makes the younger and more hot headed more likely to be recruited into radical organizations. 

Terrorism seeks to generate a massive response, it seeks to create a backlash against them and to stoke the fires of violence. The BEST thing you can do is treat them like individual nuts and not let your response spread further into the general population. Right now would be a fantastic time for France to repeal its burqa ban. To set up efforts to reduce racism, and to reassure non-violent muslims living in France that they are protected by the law too. All of which is easier said than done. Racism isn't an easy thing to eliminate. 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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honestly, i'm afraid only

honestly, i'm afraid only time will stop this. once a human behavior pattern like this has been unleashed, others are inevitably going to utilize it. it can't be bombed out. security can never be tight enough to guarantee safety. MAYBE it can be educated out, but that will take generations. of course, once terrorist attacks like this die out, some other horror yet undreamed of will replace them. be thankful for your loved ones. be thankful for each day. understand that life is fragile and there are no guarantees.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 What would some here, anyone, recommend to tamp down or completely stop stuff like this?

You can't. Terrorism isn't a new thing, it has existed forever (calling it terrorism is relatively new). The thing is, that historically, the response to terrorism has often led to far worse situations. You allow a small group of people to completely alter and dictate global relations. WWI for example, was started because of a small group of young radicals who decided to commit an assassination. The killing itself wasn't really a big deal, however the response to it led to 15 million odd deaths and put Germany directly on the track to collapse and thus leave a power gap for a young and ambitious politician named Adolph Hitler. If Austria-Hungary didn't crack down on Serbians so hard, often looking for terrorists in places they probably didn't exist, WWI doesn't happen. And quite potentially, WWII never does either. The world would look like a very, very different place. 

I would argue that the response to 9/11 was equally kneejerk and while not as grand a clusterfuck as WWI because the US is a much more powerful country than Austria-Hungary was, our response has killed many thousands more civilians than the handful of nuts managed and it has created a potentially much more dangerous nutty organization in ISIS. Not to mention the large number of liberties that we have lost as citizens here at home, and despite that loss an inability to actually prevent any terrorist attack that wasn't devised by the FBI. 

These attacks don't just occur out of the blue. Like the Ferguson riots, which were set off by the shooting of a guy who was apparently a real scumbag and was probably perfectly justified. The actual details don't matter because there is real, consistent and long term friction that was just waiting for a spark. France has been extremely anti-muslim, has had large problems with anti-muslim racism and has gone so far as to pass laws directly aimed at repressing muslims. When some 30 mosques were firebombed, the government did nothing, it wasn't labled terrorism and most of the attackers were never arrested. Even a moderate, peaceful muslim is going to chafe at the climate in France. And that just makes the younger and more hot headed more likely to be recruited into radical organizations. 

Terrorism seeks to generate a massive response, it seeks to create a backlash against them and to stoke the fires of violence. The BEST thing you can do is treat them like individual nuts and not let your response spread further into the general population. Right now would be a fantastic time for France to repeal its burqa ban. To set up efforts to reduce racism, and to reassure non-violent muslims living in France that they are protected by the law too. All of which is easier said than done. Racism isn't an easy thing to eliminate. 

 

 

I agree that you cannot completely rid the world of delusional violence. But I do think we can reduce it to small groups and like you said, treat them as individual nutcases. We arrested that atheist nutfuck who murdered the three Muslims. We arrested Dillian Roof for murdering the black Christians. Yes, youth is the most likely to fall into a gang. 

But if Europe isn't doing enough to create economic opportunity for young Muslims and isolating them yea. I wish you would realize that you just made an argument about conditions leading to certain things. If I am not correct, and correct me if I am wrong, but did you just make the case that if we hadn't used overkill in WW1 and left Germany to rot, WW2 wouldn't have happened?

But as far as Ferguson even if I agreed with you that Brown was a "scumbag" it seems that you are making the same case I am. You let conditions get so bad economically desparate people will end up doing desparate things. But lets beat each other up verbally over that elsewhere.

We are still both on the same page that what happened in France sucks. I totally agree, there should be no tollerance for destroying holy places in response to what some of their followers do. Of course not because I think religion is valid or good. But because we cannot foster a civil society with mob rule. I would rather protect a Church, Mosque Synogauge and even you guys, than react on my one because someone spoke ill of me. I can roll my eyes and tell you you are full of shit without the desire to get physically violent. 

Yes our species has always been violent, and that wont completely end. But the world is too small now for anyone to win outright. I simply want a priorty shift where conditions are more important than ideology. I think the world would be better off instead of insisting on never offending, than insisting that civility is what you do when someone offends you, and common law, not comon politics or common religion, is the only thing that I see as producing more civility. 

 

The more I think about it the word "terrorists" needlessly elevates a person, or a small group of people, from what ammounts to street thugs and criminals, to heros. 

 

 

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iwbiek wrote:honestly, i'm

iwbiek wrote:
honestly, i'm afraid only time will stop this. once a human behavior pattern like this has been unleashed, others are inevitably going to utilize it. it can't be bombed out. security can never be tight enough to guarantee safety. MAYBE it can be educated out, but that will take generations. of course, once terrorist attacks like this die out, some other horror yet undreamed of will replace them. be thankful for your loved ones. be thankful for each day. understand that life is fragile and there are no guarantees.

Yea I agree. Bush showed everyone what not to do twice. And even Obama is having a hard time picking a tactic. Generations? We crawled out of the dark ages. And while the East is still far to much stuck in its own dark ages, there are tons like Malala, Keith Ellison, and those who have left Islam like Ayaan, who do get it. 

Ibwick, can we at least agree both of us have family and none of us would want anything bad to happen to our loved ones? Can we agree that not liking each other is ok? Can we agree that both of us are horrified everytime something like this happens?

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Brian37 wrote:I wish you

Brian37 wrote:

I wish you would realize that you just made an argument about conditions leading to certain things. If I am not correct, and correct me if I am wrong, but did you just make the case that if we hadn't used overkill in WW1 and left Germany to rot, WW2 wouldn't have happened?

I don't think that a case even needs to be made, it is pretty undisputed that the primary driver behind the collapse of the Weimar Republic was the great debt burden and the punative import/export controls put on the country imposed by the Allied Powers.

 

Quote:
 

But as far as Ferguson even if I agreed with you that Brown was a "scumbag" it seems that you are making the same case I am. You let conditions get so bad economically desparate people will end up doing desparate things. But lets beat each other up verbally over that elsewhere.

Economics and desparation often have little to do with it. Many of these terrorists are quite well off. The Boston Marathon bombers for example were both spoiled rich kids. Pretty much everyone involved in 9/11 was fairly well off. Bin Laden could have lived life as a billionaire on a beach. Not everything in the world revolves around your economics picture. There is a lot of oppression that occurs in other ways. 

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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The guy in Ferguson was

The guy in Ferguson was simply the last straw. If police brutality weren't such an issue in the US noone would have noticed. Maybe he deserved it, I don't know I haven't paid much attention to the situation. But he alone was not the catalyst, he was merely the point of no return.

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Brian37 wrote:Ibwick, can we

Brian37 wrote:
Ibwick, can we at least agree both of us have family and none of us would want anything bad to happen to our loved ones? Can we agree that not liking each other is ok? Can we agree that both of us are horrified everytime something like this happens?



you bet. i never meant to give the impression otherwise.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Nope, this is just the future.

 

Despite the global appeal of Islamic State to disaffected young Muslims we again see a tide of argument suggesting events like these - the attacks on the Charlie Hebdo offices, attacks on the Bardo Musem, on tourists on a beach in Tunisia, on Shia civilians in Lebanon, 137 children murdered at school in Peshawar in Pakistan, the slaughter of 80 Ahmadi muslims while praying in Lahore, bombings on the streets of London, Iraq, Australia, Afghanistan, Indonesia, the 147 innocent students murdered at Garissa University in Kenya, and many other attacks, are aberrant, that they appear out of a vacuum. This is clearly not the case. To the attackers, the Paris victims had been utterly dehumanised. What mindset frees a person to machine gun young people at a music hall? 

Intervention for at-risk youngsters, stricter gun control, more intense pressure on hate preachers, a global commitment to stop stoking tensions in the ME, ongoing attempts to resolve the issues in the Levant and heal the Shia-Sunni rift – all these things are going to help. But it cannot end with that. There will come a time when citizens must demand governments exercise their duty of care, insisting those religious doctrines granted the status of human rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, actually conform to the articles of the declaration – and most importantly, conform to Article 30. 

Of course, we will not see such a call. We'll see self-blaming that broadly legitimises these sorts of attacks on the basis of accusations of racism, the interventions in Iraq and Libya, the failure to intervene in Syria, the creation of Israel, something about oil. In the absence of guidance from the political left, people in the west will fall back onto fear reactions. We'll see a shift to the right in both camps and the beginning of a cycle of self-sustaining violence. This is simply how the future is going to look.

I'm in rather a bleak mood. I feel the western world, having finally developed a collective conscience, is so riven with guilt over the crimes of past generations it no longer has the self belief to exist. Fortunately for those in need of certainty, it looks as if the political system that may replace the current structure will be morally squeam-free.  

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Further

 

These latest Paris attacks are different from the murders at the offices of satirical magazine, Charlie Hebdo. Whether it’s the huge numbers of young people slaughtered, the randomness, the lack of a perception of provocation – this is time is different. For many commentators on the political left, the attacks on Hebdo and a kosher deli in Paris could be easily sheeted home to events in the Levant. Not anymore. Now everyone is a target for brutal murder. For god is merciful, wise.  

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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It won't go that way

It won't go that way perpetually. The right is rising and will continue to for many years, but there will inevitably be a backlash when the left gets pushed too far. The left has been in control more or less since the end of the cold war, and has become complacent and lazy. The right has been marginalised and sees itself threatened more now than any other time since the Soviet Union collapsed. Right wing nuts simply want it more than left wing nuts. For now.

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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
Ibwick, can we at least agree both of us have family and none of us would want anything bad to happen to our loved ones? Can we agree that not liking each other is ok? Can we agree that both of us are horrified everytime something like this happens?

you bet. i never meant to give the impression otherwise.

Well you have , ever given me that impression since Bob did not agree with you. Take a leson from Mitt Romney.

I am not willing to complety burry the hatchet with you, but when I say that, it is strickly personality and dissagreement on  issues. I do know you are just as human as I am. 

Niether of us are going anywhere. I am blunt, but that is the worst anyone has to worry about me. That and my terrible jokes. And I am sure you are a huge fan of ABBA like me.

 

 

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Burying the hatchet with

Burying the hatchet with Brian is impossible, as he started everyone's contempt for him by attacking everyone; and will continue to attack everyone with strawman arguments, blatant lies, misquotes, and all the other things veteran theist debators have mastered.

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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

These latest Paris attacks are different from the murders at the offices of satirical magazine, Charlie Hebdo. Whether it’s the huge numbers of young people slaughtered, the randomness, the lack of a perception of provocation – this is time is different. For many commentators on the political left, the attacks on Hebdo and a kosher deli in Paris could be easily sheeted home to events in the Levant. Not anymore. Now everyone is a target for brutal murder. For god is merciful, wise.  

Name me one religion that thinks their God is an asshole? Name me one religion in human history that has accheived worldwide peace? Pyres and slabs and severed limbs are the currancy of religion. You have the right to murder because you got it right.

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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

These latest Paris attacks are different from the murders at the offices of satirical magazine, Charlie Hebdo. Whether it’s the huge numbers of young people slaughtered, the randomness, the lack of a perception of provocation – this is time is different. For many commentators on the political left, the attacks on Hebdo and a kosher deli in Paris could be easily sheeted home to events in the Levant. Not anymore. Now everyone is a target for brutal murder. For god is merciful, wise.  

Name me one religion that thinks their God is an asshole? Name me one religion in human history that has accheived worldwide peace? Pyres and slabs and severed limbs are the currancy of religion. You have the right to murder because you got it right.

Case in point.

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Hi Brian

Brian37 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

These latest Paris attacks are different from the murders at the offices of satirical magazine, Charlie Hebdo. Whether it’s the huge numbers of young people slaughtered, the randomness, the lack of a perception of provocation – this is time is different. For many commentators on the political left, the attacks on Hebdo and a kosher deli in Paris could be easily sheeted home to events in the Levant. Not anymore. Now everyone is a target for brutal murder. For god is merciful, wise.  

Pyres and slabs and severed limbs are the currancy of religion. 

 

You might be conflating religion and monotheism here. Certainly, the notion of one god, my god, is a form of religious bigotry. But religion is too ambiguous a label to be responsible for specific instances of sectarian violence. You have to hand it to the islamists. Never in the history of humankind have so few made vocal unbelievers of so many. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Brian37 wrote:Name me one

Brian37 wrote:

Name me one religion that thinks their God is an asshole?

The Puritans, especially the American branches held the belief that God was an asshole and basically you should kiss up to him just to avoid going to hell. God was portrayed as an angry being, that you were lucky if he didn't decide to torture you. Not the loving god that modern Christianity tends to portray. This thinking can be portrayed by the sermons of Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield. 

 

Quote:

Name me one religion in human history that has accheived worldwide peace? Pyres and slabs and severed limbs are the currancy of religion. You have the right to murder because you got it right.

Jainism. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Name me one religion in human history that has accheived worldwide peace? Pyres and slabs and severed limbs are the currancy of religion. You have the right to murder because you got it right.

Jainism. 

It's far too late to look it up, but aren't the Jains still mysoginistic? Is it possible to be peaceful in full while marginalizing an entire gender? I may be way off on this, but it's almost 4:30am, and I don't even quite know why I'm still awake. 

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.


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And where would the world be

And where would the world be today if GW Bush didn't attack Iraq? I am not trying to be one of those anti-Republican people who blame the Bush administration, but think about if Sadaam still had been in power? I believe ISIS would not exist. I believe the middle east would be more stable. You wouldn't have had all these revolutions.

And I know bombings and suicide shit has been going on for decades during my lifetime. The group responsible for the bombing of the Marin barracks in Beruit has a long list of terrorism and they are only one of six terrorist groups at that time which caused trouble for the allied countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad_Organization#Actions

 


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Jabberwocky wrote:Beyond

Jabberwocky wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Name me one religion in human history that has accheived worldwide peace? Pyres and slabs and severed limbs are the currancy of religion. You have the right to murder because you got it right.

Jainism. 

It's far too late to look it up, but aren't the Jains still mysoginistic? Is it possible to be peaceful in full while marginalizing an entire gender? I may be way off on this, but it's almost 4:30am, and I don't even quite know why I'm still awake. 

Maybe, I don't know either, but I don't consider emotional or verbal abuse war on a global context. Especially when you can just walk out the door with a complete lack of fear that anyone is going to raise a hand to you. It certainly doesn't and never has used "pyres and slabs and severed limbs" as currency. The same could be said of numerous pacifist Christian sects such as the Amish or Mennonites who use corporal punishment within the family, but aren't going to get involved in global wars. I believe there are sects among Islam that also is equally pacifist, as well as many sects of buddhism and hinduism- I just don't know them well enough to name them. Religious groups that hold pacisfism as an ideal are as common as political groups that hold it. Pacifism isn't any more popular in atheism. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 The fact is their tactics

 The fact is their tactics worked on the Syrian population. So why should they think it would not work on the rest of the world?

3/4 of they Syrian refugees are male, yet none of them are asking to be armed to go back and take back their homeland. The just want all the freebies from the socialist utopian governments of the west. This is insane, the US and Europe should take in able bodied men to live off our welfare state, then we send our solidiers over to die to recapture their homeland. These refugees get first class treatment here, while our homeless die in our streets due to lack of funds.

I think maybe USA, France and Germany are nuttier than ISIS.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Vastet
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Why the hell would any of

Why the hell would any of them want to go back? It's basically worse than Vietnam over there. There's like 50 different rebel groups that are not working together, and the Syrian government all using chemical weapons and ignoring the Geneva conventions. The Russians and the Americans are both dropping bombs all over the place and neither of them give a rats ass who gets killed along the way. And if all that wasn't bad enough, you have ISIS.
Going back there would be a useless act of suicide.
Not to mention a significant number of the refugees you say should want to fight are fucking children.

Pull your head out of your ass for oince.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.