Is Germany importing slaves?

EXC
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Is Germany importing slaves?

 Thanks to a sustained low birthrate, Germany has achieved a fair amount a widespead prosperty, despite importing a significant number of immigrants.

At first this seemed a bit crazy for Germany to open its borders and allow massive waves of Syrian refugees into the country. They must be taken care of, they compete

for jobs and housing in markets where there is no inexpensive housing to begin with.

 

But then I read how the German industries can't wait to get these workers on the job. The business and politial elites are all for open borders, while the public is

againt it or ambivilent.

They are now importing tons of cheap labor. The refugess will have to work 2 jobs just to make it, one to pay the landlord(thanks to rising rents), one for everthing else.

The business owners and landlords get richer. The imported slaves only get a subsistence wage. The native workers at the lower end of the wage scale become slaves too.

Doesn't sound like compassion to me, just sounds like greed.

 

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Beyond Saving
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 Perhaps you should read a

 Perhaps you should read a history book. It isn't the first time a large group of immigrants have moved into a country and were used for cheap labor. Time and again, immigration has been an economic boon for the receiving country, cheap domestic labor dramatically lowers the cost of living and improves the standard of living for everyone else. Working two jobs in Germany is better than their previous living and hardly akin to slavery. While they will be "poor" by German standards, they are a lot richer than where they were. Within a generation or two, their descendants will be average Germans, and exponentially better off than if their parents stayed.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Le Pen; by way of her notorious father has a pedigree akin to the KKK and Euro-neo-nazi's/skin heads. Therefore not someone to take too seriously. She would say the same if it were one(1) refugee. The Germans are rich enough and efficient enough to deal with the migrants and that is what really pisses Le Pen off the most.

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Beyond Saving wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Perhaps you should read a history book.

Perhaps you should live in a war zone as I have. There are a number of advantages. Namely cost of living. The shootings, bombing and kidnappings tend to keep down the property values, meaning rents and housing in Syria are quite affordable and they've just gotten more affordable with all these people leaving. So as long as the bad stuff doesn't happen to you, you may be better of staying in or near a war zone. Everything is a tradeoff. There are a lot of social advantages and the dangers are overblown by the media. Living in most places in Syria is not more dangerous than Chicago. Germany on the other hand has an affordable housing problem which has just gotten a lot worse.

http://www.dw.com/en/germany-running-low-on-affordable-housing/a-18610644

Beyond Saving wrote:

It isn't the first time a large group of immigrants have moved into a country and were used for cheap labor. Time and again, immigration has been an economic boon for the receiving country, cheap domestic labor dramatically lowers the cost of living and improves the standard of living for everyone else.

Yes, a boon for the landlords and wealthy business owners. Everyone else is screwed. How does adding more consumers help lower the cost of food and housing? Maybe food in a restaurant because they can pay the dishwasher shit for wages now. So Germany becomes a haves and have not nots societ(aka master and slave). How does it help with traffic, pollution, conservation?

Beyond Saving wrote:
Working two jobs in Germany is better than their previous living and hardly akin to slavery.

Yes they get to pick which plantations they work at and which landlord to give most of their income. So much more freedom than slavery. Before the US civil war, the south argued that slavery was a better system because the employer had an economic incentive to take care of his workers. With a labor oversupply, workers are an expendable commodity.

Beyond Saving wrote:
While they will be "poor" by German standards, they are a lot richer than where they were. Within a generation or two, their descendants will be average Germans, and exponentially better off than if their parents stayed.

Again you don't know what you're talking about.

http://www.todayszaman.com/anasayfa_identity-dilemma-pushes-young-turks-to-leave-germany-for-turkey_369997.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/07/us-uruguay-refugees-idUSKCN0R72C720150907

A lot of these refugees find out later the grass was not greener. Have you never met someone that lived in big cities and found out things were not better just because they had a higher salary? What is better freedom with danger or slavery with security?

You measure everything according to GDP. Cost of living and quality of life don't seem to matter in your evaluation.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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I'm somewhere in between

on this deal. I agree they'll be better off in Germany and other Euro countries, but it;ll be a matter of time when they get tired of low wages and discrimination. It's the polititians that harp the good news for the migrants but the Germainh people may not be in agreement with the politics. It'll only be a short while until they demand rights and fair wages. They'll eventually wnat the same goodies the German people have--then--troubles begin.

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one of the main problems in

one of the main problems in the west is that they view the "muslim world" as a united front against the "great satan" of the west. the truth of the matter is the muslim world is heavily divided and at war with itself. sunni vs. shi'i; wahhabis and iranian shi'i extremists in an uneasy truce against everybody else; egypt, libya, jordan, and saudi arabia all vying for control of the sunni world; the PLO and hamas detested but needed by most of the muslim world, particularly iran and libya; india and indonesia (the largest muslim populations in the world) largely unknown and involved in their own internal affairs: it's a big mess, and hatred for the west is nothing more than a political bargaining chip. these syrian refugees, unfortunately, are the casualties of these fascist struggles. i don't know if germany will be "better" for them or not--that's all subjective--but the "muslim world," for the vast majority of them, is out of the question for quite a long time to come. so what should we in the west do? kick them the fuck out? send them back to syria in cattle cars to face mass slaughter? accept them, with the coda that all the men submit to compulsory castration? what the fuck should we do? as a person currently on the ground in this crisis, in slovakia, my feeling is, whether or not we want this to happen, it's happening. damage is inevitable. only a moron would deny that. the question is the most effective damage control.

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Jeffrick wrote:The Germans

Jeffrick wrote:

The Germans are rich enough and efficient enough to deal with the migrants and that is what really pisses Le Pen off the most.

Forgot to mention, nothing like having a efficient German for a boss to make one feel like a slave.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Jeffrick wrote:The

EXC wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:

The Germans are rich enough and efficient enough to deal with the migrants and that is what really pisses Le Pen off the most.

Forgot to mention, nothing like having a efficient German for a boss to make one feel like a slave.




had a lot of german bosses, have you? cuz i'd rather work for a german than most slovaks, i'll tell you that.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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EXC wrote:Perhaps you should

EXC wrote:

Perhaps you should live in a war zone as I have. There are a number of advantages. Namely cost of living. The shootings, bombing and kidnappings tend to keep down the property values, meaning rents and housing in Syria are quite affordable and they've just gotten more affordable with all these people leaving. So as long as the bad stuff doesn't happen to you, you may be better of staying in or near a war zone. Everything is a tradeoff. There are a lot of social advantages and the dangers are overblown by the media. Living in most places in Syria is not more dangerous than Chicago. Germany on the other hand has an affordable housing problem which has just gotten a lot worse.

You are free to move to whichever warzone you wish. I'm not going to stop you. Obviously, the people leaving the war zone feel differently, hence why they abandoned everthing they couldn't carry on their backs to get the fuck out. Somehow I doubt the people fleeing Syria are spending much time watching media... just a hunch, but their refugee camps probably don't have a lot of HD tvs. Maybe you should go over there and sell them cable?

 

Oh nos, Western "problems". They might get obese too from too much food. 

 

Quote:

Yes, a boon for the landlords and wealthy business owners. Everyone else is screwed. How does adding more consumers help lower the cost of food and housing? Maybe food in a restaurant because they can pay the dishwasher shit for wages now.

Historically, many refugees tend to end up working in the agriculture industry, providing cheap labor. The US can very much thank the illegal mexican population for us having the lowest food costs as a percentage of income in the world. Cheap labor can dramatically lower food costs. Using your logic, any society of more than one person would be poorer than a society with more. Obviously, you are wrong. Your neighbor producing makes you richer.  

 

Quote:

So Germany becomes a haves and have not nots societ(aka master and slave). How does it help with traffic, pollution, conservation?

If Germany has traffic problems, they should build more roads. I'm not familiar enough with the state of Germany's traffic infrastructure to know if it is time for them to update or not. If it is time to update, a couple hundred thousand Syrian refugees would provide a great cheap workforce to do so, like the US used Chinese to build our railroads. I wasn't aware we were discussing pollution and conservation. Does a person living in Germany pollute more than a person living in Syria? Do they destroy more land? Is this relevant to the topic at all (your assertion that the refugees are akin to slaves)

 

So after 3 generations, some descendants of refugees decide to go back to their country of origin. So what? Obviously they aren't slaves since they have that option. 

 

Wow, six whole families. Obviously a such a large influx of refugees caused massive overpopulation and just fucking destroyed Uruguay for everyone. And just like fucking slaves, they have the option to go elsewhere... oh wait. 

 

Quote:

A lot of these refugees find out later the grass was not greener. Have you never met someone that lived in big cities and found out things were not better just because they had a higher salary? What is better freedom with danger or slavery with security?

You measure everything according to GDP. Cost of living and quality of life don't seem to matter in your evaluation.

I have the novel fucking concept that people can decide for themselves. I don't blame anyone for wanting out of Syria- even without the war it wouldn't be near my top 100 countries to vacation in let alone live in. People will come, people will go. Some will find the grass greener and establish the lives of their dreams, others will just keep pushing West to California, still others will stay in Syria and maybe join the war on one side or another. Whatever people choose, the world isn't going to end. Germany isn't going to be pushed into an irreversible economic collapse, the refugees aren't going to be made into slaves and doomsayers like you will always be wrong. Just like they have been wrong with every other mass migration to happen in the history of mankind. Our entire flipping country is made of a series of mass migrations. English, Germans, Spanish, French, Italians, Irish, Chinese, Jews, Vietnamese and Mexicans all came here en masse at one point in history fleeing issues in their homelands. A lot of us stayed here and live lives that are ridiculously comfortable compared to the world average. And during all those migrations, there were people declaring calamity, trying to outlaw it etc. They were all wrong as we can see with 20/20 hindsight. There is no reason to suspect the Syrians will be any different. 

And like iwbiek said, it is happening. There isn't much you can do to stop it. The refugees are going to go somewhere and will be willing to break laws if need be to do so- any sane human would. 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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iwbiek wrote: had a lot of

iwbiek wrote:

had a lot of german bosses, have you? cuz i'd rather work for a german than most slovaks, i'll tell you that.

English is the worse, Germans will drive you hard, but English enjoy being an asshole. I totally get the American revolution after having one.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

Historically, many refugees tend to end up working in the agriculture industry, providing cheap labor. The US can very much thank the illegal mexican population for us having the lowest food costs as a percentage of income in the world. Cheap labor can dramatically lower food costs. Using your logic, any society of more than one person would be poorer than a society with more. Obviously, you are wrong. Your neighbor producing makes you richer.  

No the US had low food prices because of cheap abundant land and other natural resourses relative to population size. Farmers could always find more land and water. Not the case anymore, technology is the only way to acheive more food production. Importing unskilled labor from a third world only creates more mouths to feed because automation is making all agricultrue jobs obsolete. Even driving the food to market will be soon automated.

My logic is that supply/demand mismatches cause economic distress especially for those at the bottom. So one person would be poor if he did not have enough supply to meet his needs. If your neighbor is competing with you for land, jobs, water, etc... how does that help you? Overpopulation leads to competition, underpopulation  can lead to cooperation.

By your logic, if we had 10Trillion people living in the US, we'd all be rich and well fed.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen