For Old Seer

JesusLovesYou
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For Old Seer

 Ok. Fresh thread. Let's take a new approach.

I do not want to here "our interpretation.....smurfs....bla bla". That has been well established.

in an attempt to make it easier, let's start with addressing individual questions. Here goes:

Judeo-Christian history, Jewish tradition, encyclopedias, the website I have shown, theology, etc. state that Hebrews do not state or write "God" because they think it too holy, so they substitute with JHVH. This is a FACT you can look up anywhere.

You, Old Seer, stated "the author avoids the use of "God" because the term didn't exist pre-fall.

my question is where did you find that information?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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It was logically

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Ok. Fresh thread. Let's take a new approach.

I do not want to here "our interpretation.....smurfs....bla bla". That has been well established.

in an attempt to make it easier, let's start with addressing individual questions. Here goes:

Judeo-Christian history, Jewish tradition, encyclopedias, the website I have shown, theology, etc. state that Hebrews do not state or write "God" because they think it too holy, so they substitute with JHVH. This is a FACT you can look up anywhere.

You, Old Seer, stated "the author avoids the use of "God" because the term didn't exist pre-fall.

my question is where did you find that information?

deduced about 1986. It turns out that some Jews actually comfirm this. In the original mindset of Hebrew  there is no term as "God". Ask em.  Bear in mind -the Hebrew tribes were not assembled until long after the fall. What we have today is lost understandings of the beginning on accounts of the fall. What is after is not necessarily what was before, Also take into accounts that the Jews (Israelis) are still existing in the concepts that the fall created. If it's after the fall at this time, you don't suppose they could be mistaken. If the knowledge of "God" (as they say) was lost how do they know what they're talking about. What they're saying in this regard is--they can't say what they don't know about. How do they know enough not to say "God" when they don't know what it is. After the fall  is when bogus concepts came into play. Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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I'll post

this again so you can understnd what I'm getting at.

What does this mean.

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

notice 19-   That which may be known of God is seen in them: for God had shown it to them

Notice 21- "they knew God"

And 28 -Even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge

 So, someone had knowledge of God and gave it up. Why don't the Jews of today have it.  G_D means --they don't understand. Their claim is not corrrect, God can be comprehended. Their own book says they're wrong. I'm not intent on slamming the Jews, but am showing a point. They did what all religions do-create what they don't know into mystery. Sorry

 

 

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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JesusLovesYou
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Old Seer wrote:this again so

Old Seer wrote:

this again so you can understnd what I'm getting at.

What does this mean.

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

notice 19-   That which may be known of God is seen in them: for God had shown it to them

Notice 21- "they knew God"

And 28 -Even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge

 So, someone had knowledge of God and gave it up. Why don't the Jews of today have it.  G_D means --they don't understand. Their claim is not corrrect, God can be comprehended. Their own book says they're wrong. I'm not intent on slamming the Jews, but am showing a point. They did what all religions do-create what they don't know into mystery. Sorry

 

 

 

Thank you for heading in the right direction.

first, you quote Paul's letter to the Romans. Paul was addressing a current issue with those people at that time. you have to take Paul's epistles in the context of what was happening in that time and place.

Now, back to the question. You spoke to Jews about this? You said some Jews think this....did you verify this information? 

Also, what are you considering "the fall"?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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I don't see any point

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

this again so you can understnd what I'm getting at.

What does this mean.

 

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

notice 19-   That which may be known of God is seen in them: for God had shown it to them

Notice 21- "they knew God"

And 28 -Even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge

 So, someone had knowledge of God and gave it up. Why don't the Jews of today have it.  G_D means --they don't understand. Their claim is not corrrect, God can be comprehended. Their own book says they're wrong. I'm not intent on slamming the Jews, but am showing a point. They did what all religions do-create what they don't know into mystery. Sorry

 

 

 

Thank you for heading in the right direction.

first, you quote Paul's letter to the Romans. Paul was addressing a current issue with those people at that time. you have to take Paul's epistles in the context of what was happening in that time and place.

Now, back to the question. You spoke to Jews about this? You said some Jews think this....did you verify this information? 

Also, what are you considering "the fall"?

in going on with this.

What do you mean, "the right direction". I see you mean "your" direction. You've got to be a clergyman. You're going to take this around in a big circle and end up where you guide it to go. Not buying it. I gave you our take on Romans 1, you say we're wrong. You're telling me what it is that "you" say. You either comtemplate ours to keep or throw it. That's OK with us, we don't make right or wrong for others. We,re submiting our interpretation for your analysis. If it's wrong for you then it is, but it's not necessarily wrong for someone else.  What you're leading to is---your interpretaion is the only one that's right or should exist. If what I present is wrong, why are you bothering with this. You keep telling me "your" interpretaion. I know your interpretaion and I'm attempting to familiarize you with ours. Don't you suppose I was raised with yours. The interpretaion I have doesn't see it your way. 

Back in 1960 I would go to the Jewish community center on Olympic Boulevard , Los Angeles. They had a USO there, It was there that was told this. It also has been found by our research back in the 80's. Now, I'm not going to call the Jewish Community USO and see if I can get a hold of Peggy Katz. Peggy and I won the prize for doing the Hully Gully on dance night. I'm sure Peggy isn't there still doing the Hully Gully. I'm sure you'll find that not all Jews agree with each other. Now then, will you go find one that says it isn't so. We chose the one that seemed most logical. 

The fall is Romans 1, that's our take on it. They mentally changes back to what they were before they became Adam. Adasm is the mental not the physical---as we determined it. If that's wrong for you then it is.

Will you explain what your goal is for this conversation.

 

 

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JesusLovesYou
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 I want to understand why

 I want to understand why you ignore and throw out things.

Again, this was Paul's epistle to the ROMANS. The church in Rome (not Constantine's Catholicism, but what Paul preached) had already been formed. In this epistle, Paul was addressing issues that have risen up in the ROMAN church.

Can we apply those principles to everybody? YES. BUT he was addressing SPECIFIC issues for a SPECIFIC place and a SPECIFIC time.

Paul's directiion here is to show that everyone is a sinner. The Jewish Christians had a tendency to lead gentile Christians to believe that they still need to follow Jewish law to be saved. Throughout Paul's epistles he refutes that. 

These things were found out through textual criticism and historical research, there is no personal interpretation in it. You need to understand the historical context and the audience it's addressed to.

 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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The objective

of Christianity is to inform floks of how not to be sinners. If Christians are sinners--they're not supposed to be. What's the sense in Christianity if Christians are sinners. Now then, is he refering to before or after one becomes a Christians. If After" shit can it, It's not doing anyone any good.

That's why all us Old Seers aren't Christians--we're all still simmers.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


JesusLovesYou
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Old Seer wrote:of

Old Seer wrote:

of Christianity is to inform floks of how not to be sinners. If Christians are sinners--they're not supposed to be. What's the sense in Christianity if Christians are sinners. Now then, is he refering to before or after one becomes a Christians. If After" shit can it, It's not doing anyone any good.

That's why all us Old Seers aren't Christians--we're all still simmers.

ok. Define floks

again, Paul was addressing the Roman church, gentile Christians. Early Christian history had 2 parties, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians.

Were these people Chridtians? Yes. Paul numerous times addresses their faith. So was Paul wasting his time?

the gentile Christians are being told that they need the mosaic law, but Paul, a former Sanhedrin (Jewish pharisee), who used to murder Christians, said grace saves.

now how does a man that hated Christians all of a sudden become one? How do you explain his encounter with Christ on Damascus road?

Also, if "the fall" didn't occur until AFTER Christ, what was His purpose?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:Old Seer

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

of Christianity is to inform floks of how not to be sinners. If Christians are sinners--they're not supposed to be. What's the sense in Christianity if Christians are sinners. Now then, is he refering to before or after one becomes a Christians. If After" shit can it, It's not doing anyone any good.

That's why all us Old Seers aren't Christians--we're all still simmers.

ok. Define floks

again, Paul was addressing the Roman church, gentile Christians. Early Christian history had 2 parties, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians.

Were these people Chridtians? Yes. Paul numerous times addresses their faith. So was Paul wasting his time?

the gentile Christians are being told that they need the mosaic law, but Paul, a former Sanhedrin (Jewish pharisee), who used to murder Christians, said grace saves.

now how does a man that hated Christians all of a sudden become one? How do you explain his encounter with Christ on Damascus road?

Also, if "the fall" didn't occur until AFTER Christ, what was His purpose?

You miss understood.

Is the Apostle refereing to before one becomes a Christian or after, after becoming a Christian one is no longer a sinner. 

There's no such thing as a Roman Christian. There is neither Greek nor Jew, Sythian or Barbarian in Christianity. It not a matter of nationality, or physical type. It's strictly a person type, and person type is spiritual/mental. The apostles point this out. It's the same thing as saying being Italian is Christianity.

Constantine was an idiot emporer and jack ass fool. He wakes up one sunday morning, goes outside his tent, sees a cross in the sun, and this somehow compells him to fall on his face, mumbele some kind of prayer, And get up with a strong inclination to go off and kill people. What da Hell. The idiot obviously was not a physicist. When I go outside and look at the sun through a haze I see a cross too. But, it doesn't cause me to faint flat on my face, mumble prayers, and get a strong urge to go off and shoot a neighbor that I think isn't a Christian.

Lemme esplain this to you. When looking at a bright light-especially at night a cross pattern will be seen, and that's everybody. That is caused by light passing through the atmosphere and being distorted in to patterns. (a better physicist then I may be able to be more informative) Some times there,s more spikes depending upon the condition of the atmosphere and what elements (dust particles) are in it. It also depends  on the condition of the eye.  A tired eye will develop more or less spikes.  So I am compeeled to understand that someone's bad eyesight causes a religious experiance, and one with drastic consequences to the inhabitor of the planet. So much for govenments and religions.

Moreover- A Christian cannot be an emporer, and an emporer cannot be a Christian. The tennants of Proper Christiandom require one to give up all power, principality, and authority over others. So, your whole religion is founded by someone whio wasn't a Christian. The evidence is- Proper and true Christianity was extict, over and done with by the time Constantine's little baby feeties hit the floor.JC by no means advoctae running off to kill people/floks--(OK I'll put the L in the right place -Folks) This is not a case of Constantine being a Christian, it's simple case of "what" kind of person he was.

Physics decides the material, psychology decides the mental, Mix the two together and you get superstition. Plain and simple.
 

So then, how am I to make any comment or explainations to you when I don't see you as a true Christain. Our minds are not compatible, which I already detected days ago. If you are wondering why I don't anwser questions---what's the point. You want me to match you. I don't care one way tuther if you don't match me. As aleady said---Why are you pursuing this discussion.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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JesusLovesYou
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 You are dense.Paul's point

 You are dense.

Paul's point was it doesn't matter what nationality you are (here we agree). It was Jews that had become Christians telling gentiles they had to obey mosaic law. That was the issue Paul was refuting. 

Read up on some history, understand the audience, and the issues they were facing.

I am in no means asking you to match me. I am showing you this:

I understand there are multiple interpretations, however, at the core, the Gospel, which is all that matters, is the same throughout the many.

to properly interpret something like the Bible, you need to understand,  as I have said before, who is the scripture writer addressing (audience), what is the topic they are addressing, how does that topic relate to the audience in that point and time?

What you do, old seer, is ignore the facts that are actually there to make it fit your way.

for example: you said OT worship is pagan, and non existent in the NT.

The fact is that throughout the OT, the Hebrews worshiped God, some fell away into paganism, but the focus was worshiping the ONE true God.

in the NT, Jesus said to worship the Father, Jesus taught us how to pray, and those things were practiced and preached and mentioned in the apostles epistles.

you ignore facts. You also ignore that people such as Martin Luther saw the errors in Constantian Catholicism through structured study of the scriptures, and started to rope things back.

Also Jesus said render to Cesar what is CeSars. He supported government.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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 You and the atheists here

 You and the atheists here are so hell bent on disproving physical creation, which doesn't even matter btw, that you can't see what it is all truly about.

 

THE GOSPEL MESSAGE.

For God SO LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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I know all that

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 You and the atheists here are so hell bent on disproving physical creation, which doesn't even matter btw, that you can't see what it is all truly about.

 

THE GOSPEL MESSAGE.

For God SO LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

in accordance with how you interpret the book. I've been there and reject it. Your interpretations are not for me.

I have no intent on disproving physical creation, that has already been done by the evidence that we are all here and done by natural forces of evolution. Your interpretation of biblical creation doesn,t work. In the 6th day man was created in the image and likeness of ---what. Now, is that image physical or spiritual. If it's physical then your god has a physical body, and if so where does spirit come in to this. The image is spiritual not physical. So, spiritual/mental things are being created and adjusted in biblical creation.

Are you done now.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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I'm kind of enjoying this

I'm kind of enjoying this conversation, so I don't want it to be derailed. However, I want to comment on this too.

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 You and the atheists here are so hell bent on disproving physical creation, which doesn't even matter btw, that you can't see what it is all truly about.

THE GOSPEL MESSAGE.

For God SO LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I think you've already made a couple of similar statements in the previous thread. 

The way this is worded is quite strange, almost as if you struggle with theory of mind. I shouldn't be surprised though, considering your previous responses to my hypotheticals, and given that that I've seen this type of thing time and time again.

Anyways, why would atheists be compelled to conclude that physical creation doesn't matter while 'the gospel message' is what 'it is all truly about?' We're not Christians, so we don't believe in the Bible. "The gospel message," from our perspective, is 2000 year old religious text that has little to no value, whether it be science, morality, etc., certainly not 'what it is all truly about.' (perhaps an argument for historical value could be made, but even then, I'm skeptical) Of course we realize that, for you, the gospel is paramount; that is obvious. But, we still don't care because that is not what we believe, duh, and simply trying to place it on our heads is the epitome of question begging and unproductive discourse.

Everyone has different beliefs, and no one is required to be 'hell bent' on something to hold those beliefs. Anyone could make a statement like the one you just made.

Here:

Example wrote:
You and other theists here are so hell bent on practicing faith and your religion, which doesn't even matter btw, that you can't see what it is all truly about.

FACTS. EVIDENCE. REALITY.

Nothing matters except what you can show to be true through observation and reason.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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 Perfect question Old Seer.

 Perfect question Old Seer. We were created in the Image of God.

Let's go to Collosians:

1:15 He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God.

1:19 For in Him (Christ) dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily

All verses in between speak of Christ as creator.

John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I am. (Christ was speaking)

John 4:24 God is a Spirit, those who WORSHIP Him must WORSHIP Him in Spirit and in truth.

then you have multiple theophanies in the OT, such as the 3 men that visited Abraham, the 4th man in the furnace with shadrach, meshach, and abednego, etc.

 

 

 

 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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I don't get it. On other

I don't get it. On other threads they get smashed and then starts another thread which carries over from a seperate conversation between another user; all the while ignoring all the other questions which were asked and facts which were stated. Not to forget mentioning that the OP of the other thread was derailed by their own undertaking.

 


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Can't answer this

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Perfect question Old Seer. We were created in the Image of God.

Let's go to Collosians:

1:15 He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God.

1:19 For in Him (Christ) dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily

All verses in between speak of Christ as creator.

John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I am. (Christ was speaking)

John 4:24 God is a Spirit, those who WORSHIP Him must WORSHIP Him in Spirit and in truth.

then you have multiple theophanies in the OT, such as the 3 men that visited Abraham, the 4th man in the furnace with shadrach, meshach, and abednego, etc.

Because you don't see JC as being in the beginnig-I do. But, in the likeness of Adam. I know you're not goingto understnad that. You have a problem with undrstanding spiritual elements. JC at one point says - I told you in the beginning etc. So, if yuou can't see him in the beginning then how can he relate to--he was.

We don't get into miracle working because we don't understand it. I told you that before. In oreder to Bring up the guys in the fiery furnace and survive is an explanation you have to come up with. I don't believe in miracles.

Go ahead and keep worshipping if you think it does you any good. I don't find any reason to worship anything or anyone. Are you sure they mean "worship", maybe itmeans "recognise" and worship is a translation error. What I see on planet earth is body worship more then anything else. I also see you place more recognition on the physical then the spiritual.

If god is a spirit then why are you wraped up in the physical.

Image of then invisible god. Right--Adam was invisible. Adam is not the body it,s a mind. In biblical forum a person is invisible. If Adam was made in the imnage of god and god is imvisible then Adam is invisible. That's refers to" the person being invisable".

I'm accomodating you on this to see what you come up witjh--I already know.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

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JesusLovesYou
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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I don't get it. On other threads they get smashed and then starts another thread which carries over from a seperate conversation between another user; all the while ignoring all the other questions which were asked and facts which were stated. Not to forget mentioning that the OP of the other thread was derailed by their own undertaking.

 

Dbb,

 I feel the whole creation v evolution debate just runs in circles. It takes people, such as Ken Hamm and Eric Hovind, away from what really matters, what everything point to, and that is Christ and His Gospel. 

I believe the heavens and the earth were created by God. Whethe it's 6 days, 6 gagillion years, or 6 minutes it does not matter. The English word days in the Bible translates to a hebrew word that is defined as "period of time". That could be any measurement of time by definition.

So it really does not matter, and it's a pointless debate to me.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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Old Seer wrote:JesusLovesYou

Old Seer wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Perfect question Old Seer. We were created in the Image of God.

Let's go to Collosians:

1:15 He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God.

1:19 For in Him (Christ) dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily

All verses in between speak of Christ as creator.

John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I am. (Christ was speaking)

John 4:24 God is a Spirit, those who WORSHIP Him must WORSHIP Him in Spirit and in truth.

then you have multiple theophanies in the OT, such as the 3 men that visited Abraham, the 4th man in the furnace with shadrach, meshach, and abednego, etc.

Because you don't see JC as being in the beginnig-I do. But, in the likeness of Adam. I know you're not goingto understnad that. You have a problem with undrstanding spiritual elements. JC at one point says - I told you in the beginning etc. So, if yuou can't see him in the beginning then how can he relate to--he was.

We don't get into miracle working because we don't understand it. I told you that before. In oreder to Bring up the guys in the fiery furnace and survive is an explanation you have to come up with. I don't believe in miracles.

Go ahead and keep worshipping if you think it does you any good. I don't find any reason to worship anything or anyone. Are you sure they mean "worship", maybe itmeans "recognise" and worship is a translation error. What I see on planet earth is body worship more then anything else. I also see you place more recognition on the physical then the spiritual.

If god is a spirit then why are you wraped up in the physical.

Image of then invisible god. Right--Adam was invisible. Adam is not the body it,s a mind. In biblical forum a person is invisible. If Adam was made in the imnage of god and god is imvisible then Adam is invisible. That's refers to" the person being invisable".

I'm accomodating you on this to see what you come up witjh--I already know.

I never said Jesus is not in the beginning. He is. That is why He said Before Abraham was, I AM. That is why He said that He is one with the Father. Thats why the apostles, in their epistles refered to Him as creator.

on that note, the Gospel does not hinge on miracles, however they can not be discounted. If you do not believe in miracles, you cannot quote romans like you did, because the authors "blinding" conversion (the account is in Acts) is nothing short of one.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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This isn't.

 my gig Beachbum. I don't know why he wants to carry on with this. All that'shappening is I'm gertting bible lessons when my whole chilhood was brought up with religions ideas. I know what's in the book. I'm only trying to be accomodating. Apparently he got a hold of something he can't let go of. I'd rather move on anyway.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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OK

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Perfect question Old Seer. We were created in the Image of God.

Let's go to Collosians:

1:15 He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God.

1:19 For in Him (Christ) dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily

All verses in between speak of Christ as creator.

John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I am. (Christ was speaking)

John 4:24 God is a Spirit, those who WORSHIP Him must WORSHIP Him in Spirit and in truth.

then you have multiple theophanies in the OT, such as the 3 men that visited Abraham, the 4th man in the furnace with shadrach, meshach, and abednego, etc.

Because you don't see JC as being in the beginnig-I do. But, in the likeness of Adam. I know you're not goingto understnad that. You have a problem with undrstanding spiritual elements. JC at one point says - I told you in the beginning etc. So, if yuou can't see him in the beginning then how can he relate to--he was.

We don't get into miracle working because we don't understand it. I told you that before. In oreder to Bring up the guys in the fiery furnace and survive is an explanation you have to come up with. I don't believe in miracles.

Go ahead and keep worshipping if you think it does you any good. I don't find any reason to worship anything or anyone. Are you sure they mean "worship", maybe itmeans "recognise" and worship is a translation error. What I see on planet earth is body worship more then anything else. I also see you place more recognition on the physical then the spiritual.

If god is a spirit then why are you wraped up in the physical.

Image of then invisible god. Right--Adam was invisible. Adam is not the body it,s a mind. In biblical forum a person is invisible. If Adam was made in the imnage of god and god is imvisible then Adam is invisible. That's refers to" the person being invisable".

I'm accomodating you on this to see what you come up witjh--I already know.

I never said Jesus is not in the beginning. He is. That is why He said Before Abraham was, I AM. That is why He said that He is one with the Father. Thats why the apostles, in their epistles refered to Him as creator.

on that note, the Gospel does not hinge on miracles, however they can not be discounted. If you do not believe in miracles, you cannot quote romans like you did, because the authors "blinding" conversion (the account is in Acts) is nothing short of one.

You have yours that's always been, we have ours. If we thought yours was worth anything we wouldn't have ours. So be it.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


JesusLovesYou
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Old Seer wrote:JesusLovesYou

Old Seer wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Perfect question Old Seer. We were created in the Image of God.

Let's go to Collosians:

1:15 He (Christ) is the image of the invisible God.

1:19 For in Him (Christ) dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily

All verses in between speak of Christ as creator.

John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I am. (Christ was speaking)

John 4:24 God is a Spirit, those who WORSHIP Him must WORSHIP Him in Spirit and in truth.

then you have multiple theophanies in the OT, such as the 3 men that visited Abraham, the 4th man in the furnace with shadrach, meshach, and abednego, etc.

Because you don't see JC as being in the beginnig-I do. But, in the likeness of Adam. I know you're not goingto understnad that. You have a problem with undrstanding spiritual elements. JC at one point says - I told you in the beginning etc. So, if yuou can't see him in the beginning then how can he relate to--he was.

We don't get into miracle working because we don't understand it. I told you that before. In oreder to Bring up the guys in the fiery furnace and survive is an explanation you have to come up with. I don't believe in miracles.

Go ahead and keep worshipping if you think it does you any good. I don't find any reason to worship anything or anyone. Are you sure they mean "worship", maybe itmeans "recognise" and worship is a translation error. What I see on planet earth is body worship more then anything else. I also see you place more recognition on the physical then the spiritual.

If god is a spirit then why are you wraped up in the physical.

Image of then invisible god. Right--Adam was invisible. Adam is not the body it,s a mind. In biblical forum a person is invisible. If Adam was made in the imnage of god and god is imvisible then Adam is invisible. That's refers to" the person being invisable".

I'm accomodating you on this to see what you come up witjh--I already know.

I never said Jesus is not in the beginning. He is. That is why He said Before Abraham was, I AM. That is why He said that He is one with the Father. Thats why the apostles, in their epistles refered to Him as creator.

on that note, the Gospel does not hinge on miracles, however they can not be discounted. If you do not believe in miracles, you cannot quote romans like you did, because the authors "blinding" conversion (the account is in Acts) is nothing short of one.

You have yours that's always been, we have ours. If we thought yours was worth anything we wouldn't have ours. So be it.

as I continue to see, if you don't understand something you toss it aside and ignore it, and you also ignore things if they contradict what you want to believe.

we r done here. Thanks for playing.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:as I

JesusLovesYou wrote:

as I continue to see, if you don't understand something you toss it aside and ignore it, and you also ignore things if they contradict what you want to believe.

we r done here. Thanks for playing.

 

   Despite the vast differences of opinion regarding religion and the supernatural I would still be willing to share a cup of coffee and friendly conversation with Old Seer.  You on the other hand...


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

as I continue to see, if you don't understand something you toss it aside and ignore it, and you also ignore things if they contradict what you want to believe.

we r done here. Thanks for playing.

 

   Despite the vast differences of opinion regarding religion and the supernatural I would still be willing to share a cup of coffee and friendly conversation with Old Seer.  You on the other hand...

Never said I wouldn't sit doWn for a coffee. I was refering to the specific conversation. I am not that shallow.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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About a year ago, I finished

About a year ago, I finished a tour as a drill instructor. During that time, I had recruits with perfect ASVAB scores, going into nuclear fields. These guys were INCREDIBLY smart, some even with Masters. Like the people that could do college advanced calculus and physics with their eyes closed type of smart.

BUT.....

they could not fold their underwear, like we showed them, for anything. Teaching them how to march was even more difficult.

these people were SO smart, they lacked common sense.

in an effort of not trying to be mean, I am feeling like this conversation is heading in that direction.

if a dictionary defines a certain word as worship, you can't be like "we'll that must be a misinterpretation" just because you don't agree with what it means. 

 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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Smart VS apptitude

JesusLovesYou wrote:

About a year ago, I finished a tour as a drill instructor. During that time, I had recruits with perfect ASVAB scores, going into nuclear fields. These guys were INCREDIBLY smart, some even with Masters. Like the people that could do college advanced calculus and physics with their eyes closed type of smart.

BUT.....

they could not fold their underwear, like we showed them, for anything. Teaching them how to march was even more difficult.

these people were SO smart, they lacked common sense.

in an effort of not trying to be mean, I am feeling like this conversation is heading in that direction.

if a dictionary defines a certain word as worship, you can't be like "we'll that must be a misinterpretation" just because you don't agree with what it means. 

 

[/quote

Youn described my som in 2000. The Navy wanted him for the exact same reason. They wanted him for their neuclear program. He wasn't interested and went into the Army because of helicoper interest. But when the gulf war started he got a hell of alot smarter. He calls home from Ft Rucker and said, Dad I don't want to go over there and get killed for Bush's oil profits. I said--get your ass home on the double Soldier----they let him go---he was to smart for thier program too.

Einstien couldn't tie his shoes. So much for smart.

There was a fella on TV a few years back that was considered retarded. But, he could use paper grocery bags to make nearly exact replicas of model As and other old time cars. Aptitude may be better then smart.

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Now lets do this:John

Now lets do this:

John 4:21-24 the word worship is the greek word proskyneo which defines as this:

To kiss the hand (towards) one, in token of reverence

To fall upon the knees and touch the ground with forehead as an expression of reverence

an act of homage

This word in those verses Jesus used in reference to worshiping the Father, and is used 54 times throughout the NT towards God/Christ.

There are other Greek words that translate to worship. I challenge you to look them up.

How can you push it aside as a "mis-translation"?

 

 

 

 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:] we r

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 

we r done here. Thanks for playing.

 

     You never actually follow through on these statements, do you ?   You're still here ....posting away.....again.


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OK

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Now lets do this:

John 4:21-24 the word worship is the greek word proskyneo which defines as this:

To kiss the hand (towards) one, in token of reverence

To fall upon the knees and touch the ground with forehead as an expression of reverence

an act of homage

This word in those verses Jesus used in reference to worshiping the Father, and is used 54 times throughout the NT towards God/Christ.

There are other Greek words that translate to worship. I challenge you to look them up.

How can you push it aside as a "mis-translation"?

Google the term "worship". It will bring up various defintions . "I pick honor" I think somewhere JC points to honering (yeah right honeing, do you know how to hone somone) Smiling  the father or something like that.

I find it hard to worship, mainly I can't relate to it. All these wordings are related but yet don't mean excatly the same thing. Worship seems to denote something physical, honer seems to relate to some thing mental. In our understanding of things the mental counts for more then the physical. The world holds the physical in first place.

 

 

 

 

Google the term "worship". It will bring up various defintions . "I pick honor" I think somewhere JC points to honering (yeah right honeing, do you know how to hone somone) Smiling  the father or something like that.

I find it hard to worship, mainly I can't relate to it. All these wordings are related but yet don't mean excatly the same thing. Worship seems to denote something physical, honor seems to relate to some thing mental. In our understanding of things the mental counts for more then the physical. The world holds the physical in first place.

I find it hard to worship, mainly I can't relate to it. All these wordings are related but yet don't mean excatly the same thing. Worship seems to denote something physical, honer seems to relate to some thing mental. In our understanding of things the mental counts for more then the physical. The world holds the physical in first place.

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Old Seer wrote:JesusLovesYou

Old Seer wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Now lets do this:

John 4:21-24 the word worship is the greek word proskyneo which defines as this:

To kiss the hand (towards) one, in token of reverence

To fall upon the knees and touch the ground with forehead as an expression of reverence

an act of homage

This word in those verses Jesus used in reference to worshiping the Father, and is used 54 times throughout the NT towards God/Christ.

There are other Greek words that translate to worship. I challenge you to look them up.

How can you push it aside as a "mis-translation"?

Google the term "worship". It will bring up various defintions . "I pick honor" I think somewhere JC points to honering (yeah right honeing, do you know how to hone somone) Smiling  the father or something like that.

I find it hard to worship, mainly I can't relate to it. All these wordings are related but yet don't mean excatly the same thing. Worship seems to denote something physical, honer seems to relate to some thing mental. In our understanding of things the mental counts for more then the physical. The world holds the physical in first place.

 

 

 

 

Google the term "worship". It will bring up various defintions . "I pick honor" I think somewhere JC points to honering (yeah right honeing, do you know how to hone somone) Smiling  the father or something like that.

I find it hard to worship, mainly I can't relate to it. All these wordings are related but yet don't mean excatly the same thing. Worship seems to denote something physical, honor seems to relate to some thing mental. In our understanding of things the mental counts for more then the physical. The world holds the physical in first place.

I find it hard to worship, mainly I can't relate to it. All these wordings are related but yet don't mean excatly the same thing. Worship seems to denote something physical, honer seems to relate to some thing mental. In our understanding of things the mental counts for more then the physical. The world holds the physical in first place.

 

You are stuck on the English word worship. Take a look at the Greek word proskyneo, also doxa, eusebeo, theosebes, and sebo, as well as the context in which they are used.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 

we r done here. Thanks for playing.

 

     You never actually follow through on these statements, do you ?   You're still here ....posting away.....again.

*presses button* skip

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:I am not

JesusLovesYou wrote:
I am not that shallow.

 

                              Are you serious ?


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:
I am not that shallow.

 

                              Are you serious ?

yes. I like people. I like talking to people. I like hanging out. I am not shallow.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:yes.

JesusLovesYou wrote:

yes. I like people. I like talking to people. I like hanging out. I am not shallow.

 

    Do you hang out with atheists because I heard somewhere that atheism rids an individual of all emotion and some atheists don't even have a college education.  And they're like all selfish and stuff, and a threat to humanity.

 

      


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

yes. I like people. I like talking to people. I like hanging out. I am not shallow.

 

    Do you hang out with atheists because I heard somewhere that atheism rids an individual of all emotion and some atheists don't even have a college education.  And they're like all selfish and stuff, and a threat to humanity.

 

      

I do. I give hugs too

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:I do. I

JesusLovesYou wrote:

I do. I give hugs too

 

                        I sure wish I still had my emotions.


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Well, OK

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Now lets do this:

John 4:21-24 the word worship is the greek word proskyneo which defines as this:

To kiss the hand (towards) one, in token of reverence

To fall upon the knees and touch the ground with forehead as an expression of reverence

an act of homage

This word in those verses Jesus used in reference to worshiping the Father, and is used 54 times throughout the NT towards God/Christ.

There are other Greek words that translate to worship. I challenge you to look them up.

How can you push it aside as a "mis-translation"?

Google the term "worship". It will bring up various defintions . "I pick honor" I think somewhere JC points to honering (yeah right honeing, do you know how to hone somone) Smiling  the father or something like that.

I find it hard to worship, mainly I can't relate to it. All these wordings are related but yet don't mean excatly the same thing. Worship seems to denote something physical, honer seems to relate to some thing mental. In our understanding of things the mental counts for more then the physical. The world holds the physical in first place.

 

 

 

 

Google the term "worship". It will bring up various defintions . "I pick honor" I think somewhere JC points to honering (yeah right honeing, do you know how to hone somone) Smiling  the father or something like that.

I find it hard to worship, mainly I can't relate to it. All these wordings are related but yet don't mean excatly the same thing. Worship seems to denote something physical, honor seems to relate to some thing mental. In our understanding of things the mental counts for more then the physical. The world holds the physical in first place.

I find it hard to worship, mainly I can't relate to it. All these wordings are related but yet don't mean excatly the same thing. Worship seems to denote something physical, honer seems to relate to some thing mental. In our understanding of things the mental counts for more then the physical. The world holds the physical in first place.

 

You are stuck on the English word worship. Take a look at the Greek word proskyneo, also doxa, eusebeo, theosebes, and sebo, as well as the context in which they are used.

You may be right. We don't see where the apostles or JC are creating laws. They're not politicians. I don't engage in things I find no value in. Worshiping some thing won't change my person or anyone else. I don't worship  words that I know of. I check definitions so I know what's being said to me. Of "what" value is this worship idea if it doesn't do anything. From what I see people have been worshiping (whatever that is) for the last 50,000 years---and ---- what's the result. The worldis getting worse by the hour. If worship of a deity worked or did any good he/she/it, this, that, or the other isn't Paying any attention and letting His/Her (insert you own here ____________ is letting their creation slide into oblivion.  If all the organ grinding, horn blowing, gong bonging, foot stopping, holy rollering, bell ringing, guitar strumming, wood clacking, church building, drum beating, sing songing, tuba honking hasn't changed anything as yet.---can you give us some idea when all of that will take effect. We refrain from things we find have been tried and ---no result. When I want music it Ronnie Milsaps "lost in the 50s" Jerry lee lewis, Haley Comets---now that'sinspireing and I get something out of it.  One definition of crazy is--doing the same thing over and over and over expecting a different result. And, didn't JC pont to all this repetition as equaling nonsense. It seems to me he has an understanding that this sort of thing has no value. What do you have knowledge of, that you or the Pope, or any clergyman can contribute to the world to make peace here.

Aren't your leaders supposed to be in contact with the diety of their choice and get proper instruction what to do about this earthly mess. Apparently someone in the mix has fallen asleep.
I'm not intending to be snide, but we've been around for 30 years with this deal. And from the time we started our study of the book everything has gotten worse---and worse----and worse.  So, according to the psycho analysis of the situation the psycho Smurf determined if this deal goes on to much longer we can all kiss our asses a happy death. So, upon their advice all decided to thow our bit into the mix because what works for us may very well work for everyone else., and be aware ---we don't have a Pope or fearless leader. We're depending on the masses to straighten out this meas, bnecasaue it's obvious that the ones leading created this mess---thinking themselves wise they're nothing but fools.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

I do. I give hugs too

 

                        I sure wish I still had my emotions.

 

Too late for you.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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JesusLovesYou wrote: I feel

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 I feel the whole creation v evolution debate just runs in circles.

 

    Of course you feel that way.  I'm sure the Pope felt the same way when he was forced to acknowledge that the Earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around.

 

 

 

JesusLovesYou wrote:
It takes people, such as Ken Hamm and Eric Hovind, away from what really matters,
 

 

    But without Hamm and Hovind how else would the world discover the truth about Adam and Eve living with the dinosaurs ? ( who were all vegetarians at the time )

 

JesusLovesYou wrote:
I believe the heavens and the earth were created by God. Whethe it's 6 days, 6 gagillion years, or 6 minutes it does not matter.

 

    Yes, it matters.   It just doesn't matter to Young Earthers like yourself. 

 

 

JesusLovesYou wrote:
The English word days in the Bible translates to a hebrew word that is defined as "period of time". That could be any measurement of time by definition.

So it really does not matter, and it's a pointless debate to me.

 

  Funny how God who " is not the author of confusion" decided to choose a culture whose language is so imprecise and vague that it becomes virtually impossible to discern specific meanings.   You'd think an omnipotent God could do better than that.

 

 


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 Old Seer,      You are

 Old Seer,

      You are moving into some very interesting territory. Creating laws, to begin with, the Apostles, and Jesus himself said Jesus is God, the almighty. If any singular "being" had authority to create laws it was God/Christ. Now, if you read through the Apostle Paul, as a Christian, the laws are not tangible, but written on our hearts (minds). 

Worship is not about change, it has never been about change. Worship is purely about reverence and adoration. Like you said earlier its about giving honor where honor is due.

So what does worship do? Gives God glory. It doesn't need to do anything for YOU to be valuable.

Why does it always boil down to the "why doesn't God stop war" type argument? 

So I pose this question to you. 

Of what value would your children's love for you be if you made them love you by force? 

We come to love each other through developing relationships. I did not hold a gun to my wife's head and say you will marry me. she loves me out of choice, and that love grew on her.

the same goes for God and humanity.

We, as humans, have the power to choose, whether those choices be good or bad.

and for the record, the majority of Christianity is unsupportive of the pope. According to the Bible, the church is autonomous, not a hierarchy.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:About a

JesusLovesYou wrote:

About a year ago, I finished a tour as a drill instructor. During that time, I had recruits with perfect ASVAB scores, going into nuclear fields. These guys were INCREDIBLY smart, some even with Masters. Like the people that could do college advanced calculus and physics with their eyes closed type of smart.

BUT.....

they could not fold their underwear, like we showed them, for anything. Teaching them how to march was even more difficult.

these people were SO smart, they lacked common sense.

Ah, a Navy RDC?

Of course, in their defense, you also realize that psychologically, boot camp is pretty much designed to make people stupid. Individuals that you would've thought were extremely intelligent had you met them anywhere else can still tend to go brain-dead in that environment.

Edit: Not to say that there isn't any truth to your statement either.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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According to our findings

JesusLovesYou wrote:

 Old Seer,

      You are moving into some very interesting territory. Creating laws, to begin with, the Apostles, and Jesus himself said Jesus is God, the almighty. If any singular "being" had authority to create laws it was God/Christ. Now, if you read through the Apostle Paul, as a Christian, the laws are not tangible, but written on our hearts (minds). 

Worship is not about change, it has never been about change. Worship is purely about reverence and adoration. Like you said earlier its about giving honor where honor is due.

So what does worship do? Gives God glory. It doesn't need to do anything for YOU to be valuable.

Why does it always boil down to the "why doesn't God stop war" type argument? 

So I pose this question to you. 

Of what value would your children's love for you be if you made them love you by force? 

We come to love each other through developing relationships. I did not hold a gun to my wife's head and say you will marry me. she loves me out of choice, and that love grew on her.

the same goes for God and humanity.

We, as humans, have the power to choose, whether those choices be good or bad.

and for the record, the majority of Christianity is unsupportive of the pope. According to the Bible, the church is autonomous, not a hierarchy.

the book deals with two applications of law. Natural law, and civil law. Civil is not made by God/nature (I offer no explanation of "god 'at this time) civil law is made by people. Now consider carefully. Where does it say in the book (which it does) the law kills. Which law would this be refereing to. And, why does it kill, and what does it kill. If this is confusing to you---well, so were we at one time. This was one thing that gave us a real problem. What is going on in this law business. ???? Think.

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

About a year ago, I finished a tour as a drill instructor. During that time, I had recruits with perfect ASVAB scores, going into nuclear fields. These guys were INCREDIBLY smart, some even with Masters. Like the people that could do college advanced calculus and physics with their eyes closed type of smart.

BUT.....

they could not fold their underwear, like we showed them, for anything. Teaching them how to march was even more difficult.

these people were SO smart, they lacked common sense.

Ah, a Navy RDC?

Of course, in their defense, you also realize that psychologically, boot camp is pretty much designed to make people stupid. Individuals that you would've thought were extremely intelligent had you met them anywhere else can still tend to go brain-dead in that environment.

Yes I was from 2011-2014. I know how boot camp is designed. I instructed 7 division, and I saw a huge shift from a somewhat intense disciplinarily taught, fear the RDC environment, to an environment where an RDC could go to NJP if a recruit gets offended for something as simple as calling them dumb dumbs. It's a kinder gentler military, believe me.

Many things were put into place while I was there to "reduce the culture shock".

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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Old Seer wrote:the book

Old Seer wrote:

the book deals with two applications of law. Natural law, and civil law. Civil is not made by God/nature (I offer no explanation of "god 'at this time) civil law is made by people. Now consider carefully. Where does it say in the book (which it does) the law kills. Which law would this be refereing to. And, why does it kill, and what does it kill. If this is confusing to you---well, so were we at one time. This was one thing that gave us a real problem. What is going on in this law business. ???? Think.

 

Good topic. The Bible actually deals with 3 types of laws, which were established in the Torah.

there is 1. The Moral Law. This is where the 10 commandments come from, which Jesus said the first 2 are the most important.

     The first and greatest being "The Lord our God is one. You shall love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength.

number 2 being love your neighbor as yourself.

 

2. The Ceremonial Law. This is the ceremonial law. When Jesus died, the Bible says the veil was torn (refering to the curtain that separated the Holy of Holies, which was the room that held the ark). The only person that had access to that "room" was the high priest, according to law. The veil being torn, removes that separation. The book of Hebrews explains how Christ fulfilled these laws, and that He is the great high priest.

3rd is the political laws, where the laws regarding lepers, marriage, divorce, how to handle this or that issue, etc came into play. Jesus' death and resurrection essentially abolished these because He gave humanity a better way....called repentance and sanctification.

This leaves the moral laws, which Paul said is written on our hearts, they are no longer a tangible law to obey, but part of who a Christian is. Does that make a Christian perfect? By no means. A Christian is saved and SANCTIFIED. Constantly learning and growing. Or else Paul would not have said "we are all sinners" to the Roman church, of who had already accepted Christ (now remember that wasn't constantine, but Romans who accepted the Gospel and became an autonomous church).

 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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Heh.I enlisted in 2011 too.

Heh.

I enlisted in 2011 too. I wasn't a nuke, but I did have a 99 ASVAB, and, if I fucked up on anything (which actually happened quite a few times), one of my RDCs liked to say, "99 ASVAB my ass!" Small world, isn't it?

I heard they keep their cell phones now. And, females don't lose all their hair anymore, it just has to be groomed to within standards. A lot of things can change.

Edit: Ah, sorry for derailing the thread.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:Heh.I

butterbattle wrote:

Heh.

I enlisted in 2011 too. I wasn't a nuke, but I did have a 99 ASVAB, and, if I fucked up on anything (which actually happened quite a few times), one of my RDCs liked to say, "99 ASVAB my ass!" Small world, isn't it?

I heard they keep their cell phones now. And, females don't lose all their hair anymore, it just has to be groomed to within standards. A lot of things can change.

Edit: Ah, sorry for derailing the thread.

What ship if I may ask

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:You and

JesusLovesYou wrote:
You and the atheists here are so hell bent on disproving physical creation, which doesn't even matter btw, that you can't see what it is all truly about.

Ridiculous. The creation myth is merely one of many that we have ridiculed. It simply happens to be one of the favourite topics for theists to bring up.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Ok I'm going to cut this to the quick.

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

the book deals with two applications of law. Natural law, and civil law. Civil is not made by God/nature (I offer no explanation of "god 'at this time) civil law is made by people. Now consider carefully. Where does it say in the book (which it does) the law kills. Which law would this be refereing to. And, why does it kill, and what does it kill. If this is confusing to you---well, so were we at one time. This was one thing that gave us a real problem. What is going on in this law business. ???? Think.

 

Good topic. The Bible actually deals with 3 types of laws, which were established in the Torah.

there is 1. The Moral Law. This is where the 10 commandments come from, which Jesus said the first 2 are the most important.

     The first and greatest being "The Lord our God is one. You shall love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength.

number 2 being love your neighbor as yourself.

 

2. The Ceremonial Law. This is the ceremonial law. When Jesus died, the Bible says the veil was torn (refering to the curtain that separated the Holy of Holies, which was the room that held the ark). The only person that had access to that "room" was the high priest, according to law. The veil being torn, removes that separation. The book of Hebrews explains how Christ fulfilled these laws, and that He is the great high priest.

3rd is the political laws, where the laws regarding lepers, marriage, divorce, how to handle this or that issue, etc came into play. Jesus' death and resurrection essentially abolished these because He gave humanity a better way....called repentance and sanctification.

This leaves the moral laws, which Paul said is written on our hearts, they are no longer a tangible law to obey, but part of who a Christian is. Does that make a Christian perfect? By no means. A Christian is saved and SANCTIFIED. Constantly learning and growing. Or else Paul would not have said "we are all sinners" to the Roman church, of who had already accepted Christ (now remember that wasn't constantine, but Romans who accepted the Gospel and became an autonomous church).

 

You're giving me bible lessons again. I previuosly said--I know your interpretaion.

Everyone, including dogs. cats, horses, most mammals if not all are mentally the same. They have a good side and a bad side in their relations to others.

At one time material was created by the natural forces of the universal action/processes. From that material a physical formed. Within that physical formed a brain. withing that brain formesd a mental. The mental is divided into two distinct mentalities. The mentality is like a coin (with two sides), on one side is an A, form animal mentality. On the other side is an H for human mentality. When one understand this coin they can make a choice. One of these mentalities is Christianity, the other is not. Adam subscribed to live by one of these which is the same as JC. The H is adam, and the H is JC. The coin is God. God is divided according to both these mentalities that are good and evil. These two sides are the processes of good and evil that we apply on each other which we all are subject to. They are realtionship types that we all have. The dogs got it two.

Adam is one if these from making a choice as to what values they were to live together under--that was the H. The fall is---behold the man has become as we (one of us)--Adam returns to the double coin which is the completeness of God/the combined entity. Back to romans 1, they became animalistic like tyhe planets creature creeping things and fourfooted beasts. Adams world returns to as it was before he decided to make the choice. The same world seen in existance today. It's a stratified system of power, principalities and authorities, operating in a system of greaters and lessors, force and counterforce, status and degradation ETC. For the Isrealites before the tribes were formed that system was set in place by Nimrod the founder of babylon. Go to Rev. Mystery, babylon the great, mother of harlots etc. If this is still a mystery to you I will end it for you----the harlot is civilization. If you take the time to figure this out you'll come to the conclusion that you are living in a Babylonian systen of idiocy. They became so hypocitical and confused thay could even agree on anything, just as you see going on in the governments of every country at the present. The animal mentality cannot be fixed, it is what it is and cannot be changed. It can only be "exchanged" by the other side of the coin/God.  To change the world requires living under the foces of "God" the H we all have. It's not out in space and it's not super---it's you me and eveyone else, Adamm and JC alike, and it's right up there in everyone's brainial. Your Pope and all other clergyman every where in all religions, governments, finance, corportaions, militaries are useuing this system in absolute futility of trying to fix something that can't be fixed. They are all existing in Babylon the Great and emulate Nimrod the nummie  keeping the babeling bullshit going to it's own end of self destruction, right where all previous civilizations have ended up. The term "God" is nothing more then a replacement term  relateing to something known and lost. It denotes "ignorance of the self".

Until you figure this out and understasnd it you're not going to understand where we're coming from and going to. If you want to worship then worship yourself if that makes any sense, as most people worship themselves anyway.

The 10 commandments are civil "physicl/material law. Moses merely createdm civilization. The laws of physics is marteial/physical law and natural and not made by people.

Civil law attermpts to control the physical and the mental always ending up an abject failure.

Spirtual laws are determined by psychology. The Apostles deal with laws of psycology.

It's civillaw that kills. It kills the person and reconstucts one into an image determined by and of the state, killing the natural child/person and makeing one subjecft to the mandates of the ones that rule. Everyone becomes like the ones that rule but lessors.

As it has been said--as Nimrod a muighty hunter before the lord. The people of Nimrods making became like him, a predator. He establishes a prsdtory society patterned after his idea which all had the become. It is no different today in any government anywhere.

Old Seers are no longer in the image of the state. We are what we choose to be by the knowledge aquired. In understanding the "coin" we can choose what we are to be. We can choose to be good or evil,or what is necessary to be according to the situation. If someone wants animal---we can be that  if they require it and we choose to.

The system operator have you believing there'e only one anarchy. Wrong---there's two. There's human anachy and there's animal anarch. One is good and one is evil---anarchy is you me and everyones else.  Civil law does not create one to be human, we all alre dy had that before civilization. Cvilization merely promotes one to be anmalistic and then cages what is promoted to adjust it's harmful effects.

The authourties and leaders on this planet are resonsible for this mess.It was created by them via their ignorance of what is human and what is not. In order to solve the problems one has to walk away from them (spiritually) an return to being themself. Before anyone will accomplish it they will have to take a trip through Atheism to get rid of inherited ancient superstitions and beliefs.

I'm going to leave you now as I've grown tired of this as I've been at it too long, Time to get back to uninvolvement in the worlds affairs. the  last message from the other Seers was, if I feel enclined is to let be --mission is accomplished. The hacker Smurfs are now finding our interpretation in many places and it is spreading, bheing debated and duscussed. The object of this excersize was to put it in the hands of God (people, the populations, the public) for his/it's descretions and determinations. It's all up to the people now to keep or throw --to do with as they prefer. Any other info can be found on our website, or on this site. We will gbe adding things as time goes on but it looks as thought we don't care to be involved any further. I'll be around from time to time to see what other subjects of interest are being posted.

 

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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"Who made you our ruler and judge?" Tell'em I-AM sent ya

 re ::  "Who made you our ruler and judge?" Tell'em I-AM sent ya (smile) View/SEE: Upload

 

 

  +

   Truly the land of promise ( הארץ המובטחת ), then it can be the land flowing with milk and with honey (plural), hehehe!  ( Smiling, oh, Silly me )

 

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

the book deals with two applications of law. Natural law, and civil law. Civil is not made by God/nature (I offer no explanation of "god 'at this time) civil law is made by people. Now consider carefully. Where does it say in the book (which it does) the law kills. Which law would this be refereing to. And, why does it kill, and what does it kill. If this is confusing to you---well, so were we at one time. This was one thing that gave us a real problem. What is going on in this law business. ???? Think.

 

Good topic. The Bible actually deals with . . .

 There is the whole story of the Exodus, begin with the beginnings of the Law, perhaps you could make time to share about the Law-Giver (View Uploads) --

  The Follow is more for  OFF-Site, if I could be honest more addressed for me, than for  JLY or the OP, sorry !

 

  Now the Pharaoh as found in the story, decided to limit the Hebrew's population by ordering midwives to kill male babies born to Jewish women. Two of the midwives were woman called Shiprah and Puah, did an extraordinarily daring thing. In being disobedient to authority, and doing the right thing instead.  In they would not co-operate with the Pharaoh's decree, but instead let the babies live. So, they were blessed with households of their own, as a result. Good thing that.

 

 

 

  ( Above :: The Israelite infant drawn from the bulrushes of the Nile River by Chinese artist He Qi )

 

   The Writer of the New Testament's Book of Hebrews states ::

 '' .. when Moses was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful (meow), and they were not afraid of the king's edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin ''

 

 

 OMNI/Original/Other 0FF-Site ::

 

 

   
 



 




 




  

     

 

 p.p.s. --  Frustrations, Well, I blame it mainly on shirking attention spans, “Easy, breezy, beautiful…”


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Old Seer wrote:Back to

Old Seer wrote:

Back to romans 1

Yes, back to Romans 1.

Audience: ROMANS

The earliest person to cite this Epistle was Clement of Rome (~ 95 AD), and the letter itself was composed ~56 AD. Constantine didn't come into the picture for about another 200 years.

Issue: Again, Paul was dealing with a very SPECIFIC issue here. Paul was saying we are all justified by FAITH. The Jews that became Christians wanted to keep "the law", and they claimed that even gentiles who become Christians must do so also. Paul was against that, hence the whole we are all sinners justified by faith thing. If you are going to "interpret" something, you have to gather all the facts about it first, then build your interpretation off of that. Paul was not addressing humanity as a whole, he was addressing a specific audience about faith.

 

Quote:
Until you figure this out and understasnd it you're not going to understand where we're coming from and going to. If you want to worship then worship yourself if that makes any sense, as most people worship themselves anyway.

I have no need to toot my own horn, or bring an audience to myself. That is a very selfish act. It is better to worship God/Christ.

Quote:
Your Pope and all other clergyman every where in all religions, governments, finance, corportaions, militaries are useuing this system in absolute futility of trying to fix something that can't be fixed.

WELL SOMEONE IS ANTI-GOVERNMENT! First off let me establish something AGAIN (another fact in which you choose to ignore). This is a common misconception of atheists, agnostics, people like you. Stop putting Roman Catholicism in the same pot as Christianity. Christianity has not, and never will support a political figurehead such as a Pope.

There are two overall offices the Bible mentions, Pastor/Bishop/Elder/presbyter (all refer to same role) and Deacon. The former is just an overseer, and the latter is defined as one who serves (like a waiter waiting tables).

I kinda figure you are out of the hippy movement......

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:What

JesusLovesYou wrote:

What ship if I may ask

It was the Kearsarge.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle

butterbattle wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

What ship if I may ask

It was the Kearsarge.

Ah...good ol' ship 11. Do you remember your RDC's names? 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.