Today Show had Sybill Shepherd on talking about NDEs.

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Today Show had Sybill Shepherd on talking about NDEs.

 I didn't catch the opening of the interview but started paying attention when I realized who it was. Some may remember her character on the show Moonlighting. Maddie, her character, is a small peice of the road to my atheism. There was one scene where after they couldn't figure out how a magician in one episode seemingly "came back from the dead", were arguing, like they do in every epsode, back at the office. 

In the scene David says somthing like ".....God.....there you go, everyone believes in him......" And Maddie sat stone faced not responding to him because her character didn't believe. I have to thank the writers of that show for fostering my doubt. 

Jump forward to today, litterally the show and this morning. So she's like every other actress on the show to promote something she is doing. I missed what she was talking aobut but talked about NDEs. 

I have not ever been clinically dead (although some here might wish that on me), but I have had the false sensation of seeing the dead in my sleep. I have also had the false sensation of "floating out of my body". But that is all they are, false sensations. These can be caused by mere stress, chemical imbalance, and or brain injury or mental illness. 

What makes NDEs stupic claims is that those who claim it have in tact brains who "come back". "Near" does not mean "beyond". Even doctors can fall for this crap. If you have juice in you(enough activity) that is all it takes to jolt someone back. Not dectecting motion only makes someone clinically dead. If you are still in that window and come back, it merely means you didn't go beyond that window. Funny how all those claiming this have in tact brains. Funny how someone who has had their brains blown out by a gun, or decapitated never have this same "experience".

Once your brain dies you die. You are nothing more than your brain in motion. Destroy the structure there is no more you.

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I posted this previously,

I posted this previously, way back when the forums first opened, that I had a experience which I do not expect any one here to try and explain. Believe me I've already researched it.

I had my grandmother visit me in my 'dreams' and it happen twice, two days in a row, when I was half way around the world. It wasn't until a girlfriend told me my grandmother had passed that the dreams stopped. The passing of my grandmother happened in the afternoon, when I was asleep in bed, she also called for me seconds before she passed. We were very close.

Sure, there are plenty of explanations, but none of them work for me.

I believe in an existence of our essense, soul, spirit, memory, etc which is transferred to 'where ever'.

Science can not explain this, but I don't expect it to. I believe there is a scientific explaination, but not one which says what I experienced was bullshit. 

There is a form of existance beyond this world and while I still do not believe in a creator I believe only my body dies.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I posted this previously, way back when the forums first opened, that I had a experience which I do not expect any one here to try and explain. Believe me I've already researched it.

I had my grandmother visit me in my 'dreams' and it happen twice, two days in a row, when I was half way around the world. It wasn't until a girlfriend told me my grandmother had passed that the dreams stopped. The passing of my grandmother happened in the afternoon, when I was asleep in bed, she also called for me seconds before she passed. We were very close.

Sure, there are plenty of explanations, but none of them work for me.

I believe in an existence of our essense, soul, spirit, memory, etc which is transferred to 'where ever'.

Science can not explain this, but I don't expect it to. I believe there is a scientific explaination, but not one which says what I experienced was bullshit. 

There is a form of existance beyond this world and while I still do not believe in a creator I believe only my body dies.

You are actually a better sport with me than others here. But seriously we are at the macro level and both I and Bob have tried to point out that "we" cannot behave just as a wave, "we" have a macro structure that has to be in that pattern for us to function. It isn't that hard to understand. The fuel by itself cannot be the entire car. The arangment of that matter counts.

And in that other thread with the links even with all the crappy summerizing I did, you will not find QM scientists saying that is what it justifies. It still amounts to projecting human qualities on non human events. 

You cannot take "connected" "communicate" and "information" and equate an in tact human to a mere wave. They are not the same structures. 

 

It is freaky enough for me to know I am 14 billion years old as far as my atoms, but those atoms and waves by themselves do not make my temporary macro form me after that structure is no longer in tact.

 

Stephen Hawkins "a god is not required" so even if you don't want to think of it as a "g" or "G"  deity, there still is no reason to fill in that gap with any type of cognition. I am not trying to burst your bubble to be mean. I simply think it is better to view this naturally without projecting human qualities on non human events. 

What makes us up is certainly older than us, but that doesn't make it human like us. I am fine with being finite and I see nothing wrong with accepting I am a mere blip in all this.

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 Oh and anyone here

 Oh and anyone here thinking I am singling them out, my post here was a result of her, and this morning having nothing to do with anyone here. I know some here don't want to believe it, but I was making these same arguments prior to this website existing, and make the same arguments on other websites as well. 

ON ANY SUBJECT, if I have argued it with you here, please understand this is not the only website I am on. I have been at this for 14 years.

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 One thing I I am a

 One thing I I am a horrible speller. I meant Stephen Hawking.

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Brian37 wrote: You are

Brian37 wrote:

You are actually a better sport with me than others here. But seriously we are at the macro level and both I and Bob have tried to point out that "we" cannot behave just as a wave, "we" have a macro structure that has to be in that pattern for us to function. It isn't that hard to understand. The fuel by itself cannot be the entire car. The arangment of that matter counts.

And in that other thread with the links even with all the crappy summerizing I did, you will not find QM scientists saying that is what it justifies. It still amounts to projecting human qualities on non human events. 

You cannot take "connected" "communicate" and "information" and equate an in tact human to a mere wave. They are not the same structures. 

It is freaky enough for me to know I am 14 billion years old as far as my atoms, but those atoms and waves by themselves do not make my temporary macro form me after that structure is no longer in tact.

Stephen Hawkins "a god is not required" so even if you don't want to think of it as a "g" or "G"  deity, there still is no reason to fill in that gap with any type of cognition. I am not trying to burst your bubble to be mean. I simply think it is better to view this naturally without projecting human qualities on non human events. 

What makes us up is certainly older than us, but that doesn't make it human like us. I am fine with being finite and I see nothing wrong with accepting I am a mere blip in all this.

Yeah I've tended not to be so harsh, but that is now and not what I was like a long time ago. My practice in Buddhism has changed me.

Look this is very difficult to explain but I'll do my best.

People like to think that the Universe is the only one, that there is no multi-Universes, however that is just plain silly. There is no chance in hell that this is the first time this Universe was created and that this will be the last. No way. Every thing I have experienced in on this planet indicates that life will one day cease and then start all over.

So I constantly ask others, what is outside this Universe? Nothing? OK. Well the 'big bang' was a start of one Universe, why not unlimited others? Why not a recycling of Universes over and over and over again. Forget numbers because it has happened so many times you can't count that high.

So what is our play in this game?

The human mind is limited to this world and these senses. We touch. We smell. We look. We hear. We talk. Those are what we have and those are what we use. However what about if we could exist in temperatures near zero? What if we could survive 800F? 1500F? What if we could see infrared? or ultraviolet? What if we could feel the magnetic field of the Earth? Would our perception of the Universe be different?

Information passed from cells from generation to generation. I've posted this previously where DNA remembers if there was a famine or if the ancestor was well fed. What other information is passed long? Would this change our perception on life if we could use this to pass along information artificially?

What about our energy patterns? I think you and I agree that we are made up of a specific arrangement of atoms. When we cease to exist the body dies and decays. Those cells break down. The DNA breaks apart. Atoms are reabsorbed in to the Earth. In to animals, worms, etc. Why not have information passed along to their DNA from our DNA or cells, whatever. I don't know, I 'm not giving answers, I'm throwing questions on the table. I've observing. I'm asking 'what if'?

Why don't I believe in god? Well there are too many religions for one thing. Who is  correct? None I say. They all got it wrong. Religions were made up from ignorant people who wanted to control the others in their tribes. Witch doctors. Shamans. Etc. It's bullshit. however science is a different ball game.

Sorry I can't continue. Gotta get back to work, but if you try to convince me that there is no "life after death" you are wasting your time. No I don't believe in heaven. No I don't believe in all that other stuff. Please do not group me in to those categories. I'm not one of those people.


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 I think the thing you are

 I think the thing you are really failing to see is mundane human psychology. Our drive to continue is what drives evolution, unfortunately in doing that we also at the same time project that drive in anthropomorphic terms. 

Why is it so important to you to be eternal? What is so frightening about saying you are an outcome of events and temporary? Why does any of this need us? I say it does not. 

Our atoms and particals were around to become us and waves will exist after we are gone. But I do not lose one bit of sense of awe at all knowing my finite existence. No one makes these arguments for eternity for bacteria or cockroaches. I am happy with what I know without projecting my species structure and qualities on non living things.

Oh and as far as seeing the dead, I have had those "experiences" too. I once saw my dead grandmother, and another time my dead father, but on top of that my now still living mother, each time standing at the foot of my bed. It scared the shit out of me and felt real. I know now that was just my brain doing that. I also had an "outer body" experience. Those "eperiences" are nothing more than humans not understanding what is really going on. 

Human perceptions are notoriously flawed. 

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All I can do is lol

All I can do is lol

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Vastet wrote:All I can do is

Vastet wrote:
All I can do is lol

No what I find funny is that people incert bullshit into science. 

Humans are at a MACRO level, treating a mere wave as a macro human that requires macro atoms and macro molecules as having the same ability is bullshit. Otherwise you could pump gass out of a nozzel and it could act as the entire car without any steps inbetween. Energy to get to us taking our shape requires a certain structure. Destroy that structure it will not function.

Now if you can accept a monotheistic cognition as some humans claim like Allah or God are not good answers for "all this" then why would any type of cognition be needed at all? 

The same problem of infinite regress is going to be a problem even in trying to treat a non human wave by itself as a cognition without the body. "Borg" "giant computer programer" "god" or "God" is still all a form of human anthropmorphism. 

If you want to chalk all this up to magic you can. Science is freaky enough by itself without treating non human things like humans. What is so bad about accepting the waves that ended up in us and the atoms that will go on to other things does not make us an eternal cognition. I see all this as a mere giant weather pattern that has no concern for us or ability to care. 

Once you start protecting human cognition on non human things you are fucking up.

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What I find funny is this

What I find funny is this topic sees a fairly intelligent individual who has an unprovable belief have a discussion with someone who may know the terminology of science but has very little if any understanding of the fuction and mechanics of science. The result is a guy opening up a bit only to be harassed by a dim wit.

The best part is that life and death are both so poorly understood that everything said in this topic so far is an opinion, but only one of the posters acknowledges that reality, and HE'S THE ONE WITH FAITH. LOL

If there's a WORSE proponent of atheism than Brian, I really hope I never meet him.

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Brian37 wrote:ON ANY

Brian37 wrote:

ON ANY SUBJECT, if I have argued it with you here, please understand this is not the only website I am on. I have been at this for 14 years.

Amazing that after 14 years you haven't managed to pick up even the basic ability to actually respond to the points being made against you. At least now you seem to have decided to start talking about quantum mechanics every post, it is a nice break from EVOLUTION! even if it isn't any more related.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 I must correct myself, I

 I must correct myself, I used the term 'created' when I should have used 'formed'. The Universe wasn't created. It formed just like dust forms in to rocks which forms in to larger rocks, which forms in to eventually planets.


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Vastet wrote:What I find

Vastet wrote:
What I find funny is this topic sees a fairly intelligent individual who has an unprovable belief have a discussion with someone who may know the terminology of science but has very little if any understanding of the fuction and mechanics of science. The result is a guy opening up a bit only to be harassed by a dim wit. The best part is that life and death are both so poorly understood that everything said in this topic so far is an opinion, but only one of the posters acknowledges that reality, and HE'S THE ONE WITH FAITH. LOL If there's a WORSE proponent of atheism than Brian, I really hope I never meet him.

I get chuckly from your amusment.


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No matter how amazing the

No matter how amazing the NDE's are, they can't be justified as being anything more than a dream to other people, unless we could derive some sort of objective evidence from the people that went through them of something beyond our current scientific understanding of human consciousness. 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

"chuckly"

 

    Is that in the dictionary ?


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

"chuckly"

 

    Is that in the dictionary ?

LOL. It was a typo but I liked it so I didn't change it.


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butterbattle wrote: No

butterbattle wrote:

No matter how amazing the NDE's are, they can't be justified as being anything more than a dream to other people, unless we could derive some sort of objective evidence from the people that went through them of something beyond our current scientific understanding of human consciousness. 

 

I know nothing about NDE's but I can tell you my ADC was very real. So real that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support my experience.

 


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I'd like to know why people

I'd like to know why people feel the need to shout "Oh lord I'm cumming" or "Oh god I'm cumming" when they have an orgasm.

To be fair I've heard, "Oh shit I'm cumming" "Holy fuck I'm cumming hard" and several other profane responses.


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Well THIS topic shifted

Well THIS topic shifted gears fast...

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Vastet wrote:Well THIS topic

Vastet wrote:
Well THIS topic shifted gears fast...

I was so damn tired when I posted that... lol


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butterbattle wrote:No matter

butterbattle wrote:

No matter how amazing the NDE's are, they can't be justified as being anything more than a dream to other people, unless we could derive some sort of objective evidence from the people that went through them of something beyond our current scientific understanding of human consciousness. 

 




i agree for the most part, though i've never understood why one who has an NDE feels the need to justify it to anyone (though clearly not all do). if you've had such an experience, you've had it, and no one can definitively tell you you haven't. i have to say, the older i get, and the more i think about it, the more slippery the category "objective" appears. just what is "objective" i suspect has a great deal of the subjective in it. as for "anything more than a dream," that implies a hierarchy of existence, which is one of the bullshit presuppositions anselm's ontological argument works from.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:butterbattle

iwbiek wrote:
butterbattle wrote:

No matter how amazing the NDE's are, they can't be justified as being anything more than a dream to other people, unless we could derive some sort of objective evidence from the people that went through them of something beyond our current scientific understanding of human consciousness. 

 


i agree for the most part, though i've never understood why one who has an NDE feels the need to justify it to anyone (though clearly not all do). if you've had such an experience, you've had it, and no one can definitively tell you you haven't. i have to say, the older i get, and the more i think about it, the more slippery the category "objective" appears. just what is "objective" i suspect has a great deal of the subjective in it. as for "anything more than a dream," that implies a hierarchy of existence, which is one of the bullshit presuppositions anselm's ontological argument works from.

It is really illogical to use any part of the "ontological argument". It fails before they utter the words.


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i remember when i first

i remember when i first encountered the ontological argument as a freshman in college, fall term, taking "history of christian thought" (i knew even then that i wanted to be a religion major). i had been a christian roughly two years and was just about to enter my most obnoxious evangelical, fundamentalist phase. i was so excited at this "proof" of god's existence that i immediately used it on some guys in the dorm i was determined to convert. i shudder to think at how proud i was of myself. naturally, they scoffed at it, but thankfully (i guess) were no older or more experienced in philosophy than i was, so they weren't able to truly rip me apart.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:i remember when

iwbiek wrote:
i remember when i first encountered the ontological argument as a freshman in college, fall term, taking "history of christian thought" (i knew even then that i wanted to be a religion major). i had been a christian roughly two years and was just about to enter my most obnoxious evangelical, fundamentalist phase. i was so excited at this "proof" of god's existence that i immediately used it on some guys in the dorm i was determined to convert. i shudder to think at how proud i was of myself. naturally, they scoffed at it, but thankfully (i guess) were no older or more experienced in philosophy than i was, so they weren't able to truly rip me apart.

The first time I heard about it was on the old IIDB forums. Some user had posted it and the more experienced atheists as well some theists, ripped it to shreds. I saw it pop up a few more times on FreeRatio but it never makes it far with either side of the coin.


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iwbiek wrote:butterbattle

iwbiek wrote:
butterbattle wrote:

No matter how amazing the NDE's are, they can't be justified as being anything more than a dream to other people, unless we could derive some sort of objective evidence from the people that went through them of something beyond our current scientific understanding of human consciousness. 

 


i agree for the most part, though i've never understood why one who has an NDE feels the need to justify it to anyone (though clearly not all do). if you've had such an experience, you've had it, and no one can definitively tell you you haven't. i have to say, the older i get, and the more i think about it, the more slippery the category "objective" appears. just what is "objective" i suspect has a great deal of the subjective in it. as for "anything more than a dream," that implies a hierarchy of existence, which is one of the bullshit presuppositions anselm's ontological argument works from.

Of course they had an "experience" but that does not mean they know the natural brain missfires in a neurological, psychological sence.  I don't doubt they had one. I am sure they felt intense and real,  but I do doubt their interpretation of what they think they saw.

I didn't have an NDE. but when I was a kid I had sleep paralysis, 3 times. I saw my dead grandmother at the foot of my bed. Saw my dead father at the foot of my bed, and my still living mother. Now I know that was merely my brain halucinating mixing with my open eyes. Felt really real but it wasn't. Also had a "outer body" "experience" and again, not real. Lots of natrual brain function disruptions can cause lots of phantom sensations and halucinations.

All those things can feel very real and intense but all of them are merly a brain missfire and are malfunctions.

 

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Of course they

Brian37 wrote:
Of course they had an "experience" but that does not mean they know the natural brain missfires in a neurological, psychological sence.



they may not. but the "neurological, psychological sense" might not be the only "sense" there is. the only thing neurological activity proves is that there is neurological activity going on.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson