The same brush defense

rpcarnell
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The same brush defense

Hello,

 

I call this defense system "The Same brush" defense because of these words:

"You are painting them all with the same brush".

But I am sure there is another name for this nonsense that goes like this:

Person #1: Poverty causes crime.

Person #2: you are saying everyone who is poor is a criminal. You shouldn't paint people with the same brush.

Or, in the case of Ben Affleck / Sam Harris / Bill Maher, a debate that is now all over the internet, Ben Affleck accuses

Harris and Maher of painting all Muslims with the same brush, and I am sure not everyone is a member of ISIS. In fact

most Muslims oppose ISIS, but this "same brush" defense seems to be some form of Red Herring that forces you to

explain that you are not saying "all of them are the same" thereby deviating you from your argument.


digitalbeachbum
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 Mod - this could be moved

 Mod - this could be moved over to the other thread considering it is the same subject of the video I posted


rpcarnell
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I wouldn't mind having it

I wouldn't mind having it moved.


iwbiek
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if you have to "deviate from

if you have to "deviate from your argument" in order to clarify that you're not lumping all religious people together, then your argument probably wasn't worth much to begin with. those of us who choose to fight oversimplified, black-and-white thinking are not being defensive. we're being rational. which is, you know, in the name of this site. the world is an extremely complicated place and we should all think long and hard before opening our mouths. i'm sorry if that upsets people who find dealing with the world's infinite shades of gray just too much darn work.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


Jeffrick
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My 5 cents worth (Cdn doesn't deal with pennys)

This post can stay right here on it's own. It's not the first time Rational response deals with one topic on 2 (or more) different postings.

Affleck (why do I hear a duck squaking!!!) missed the main point of Maher & Harris statement, "The BASE elements of Islamic beliefs DEMAND, Death to Apostates, Death to those who disagree, less then equality to females because they are JUST NOT born to the right sex.[surprisingly enough they are acceptable to homosexuality but they just don't talk about it.]

Affleck {still that duck!} missed it. He was demanding the PC version;[Not ALL, Not EVERYONE] when the discussion was "base elements of" . Christians have the same embarrassing excuse for Old Testament horrors; "The New Testament alleviates that bad stuff!" : Yet it does NOT!!! Matthew 5:17 clarifies that; Jesus says "I do NOT come to change the old laws BUT to fulfill them!"; Christians choose to ignore this base element of their religion, Muslims do NOT!!!!!!! Maher & Harris were talking along this line when Affleck {duck} jumped in with his PC; editing.

go figure.

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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iwbiek
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quite frankly i wasn't

quite frankly i wasn't impressed with anybody in that debate, and i was really irritated when affleck played the race card. for fuck's sake, "muslim" is not a race!!!!! some of the first muslims i ever met face to face were pale, blonde macedonian boys.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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I suppose it is technically

I suppose it is technically a strawman if that is not the position being asserted. But, clarifying and elaborating on your arguments is a normal process in intelligent conversation. As long as it is a misunderstanding, and the discussion can progress from there, I don't see any problem with it.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


digitalbeachbum
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Jeffrick wrote: "The BASE

Jeffrick wrote:
"The BASE elements of Islamic beliefs DEMAND, Death to Apostates, Death to those who disagree

I disagree.

The Qur'an was written for specific believers of a specific time fighting a specific group of non-believers. It is no different than many of the verses in the bible which were written about specific people during a specific era. Remember the sections of the bible where they talk about not wearing wool with linen? Not eating shell fish?  All those verses were about passover. They weren't meant for every day use. The same goes for laying with a man as you lay with a woman verse which all the anti-gay people use improperly.

I've seen one "bible websites" which conveniently claim that the section for laying with a man as you do a woman is a moral law and has no expiration. The Qur'an was not written for the this era. It is always being taken out of context to fit the needs of warped individuals. It just not justify the killing of any one who is a non-believer who isn't trying to harm their lives or beliefs (etc etc etc).


iwbiek
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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:
"The BASE elements of Islamic beliefs DEMAND, Death to Apostates, Death to those who disagree

I disagree.

The Qur'an was written for specific believers of a specific time fighting a specific group of non-believers. It is no different than many of the verses in the bible which were written about specific people during a specific era. Remember the sections of the bible where they talk about not wearing wool with linen? Not eating shell fish?  All those verses were about passover. They weren't meant for every day use. The same goes for laying with a man as you lay with a woman verse which all the anti-gay people use improperly.

I've seen one "bible websites" which conveniently claim that the section for laying with a man as you do a woman is a moral law and has no expiration. The Qur'an was not written for the this era. It is always being taken out of context to fit the needs of warped individuals. It just not justify the killing of any one who is a non-believer who isn't trying to harm their lives or beliefs (etc etc etc).




that's all very true, at least according to my moderate level of knowledge (i wavered for years between islam and south asian religions before deciding to commit academically to the latter). also, there is a huge difference between an apostate and "one who disagrees." an apostate is someone who has willingly left their religion. "one who disagrees" could be an apostate or someone who never believed in the first place. of course, ethically speaking, killing apostates is no more justifiable than killing anyone else, but i've always argued we have to keep our terminology sharp if meaningful discussion is to move forward.


regardless, a., there is no definitive passage in the quran that insists on killing nonbelievers just because, and


b., i've already touched at great length on the problem of westerners seeking answers about why the vast majority of muslims do what they do or believe what they believe primarily in the quran. i can't remember in which thread but it wasn't very long ago and i'm sure it can be found rather easily.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


Beyond Saving
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some of us read, and even comprehend

iwbiek wrote:
 i've already touched at great length on the problem of westerners seeking answers about why the vast majority of muslims do what they do or believe what they believe primarily in the quran. i can't remember in which thread but it wasn't very long ago and i'm sure it can be found rather easily.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/34685#comment-412902

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X