Michael Brown was a robbery suspect

harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3359
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
Michael Brown was a robbery suspect

 Does this information change anything about the overall case itself from your perspective ?

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28806313

 

Michael Brown, the black teenager shot by police on Saturday in Ferguson, Missouri, was a suspect in a robbery just moments earlier, police have said.

But they said the robbery in a convenience store had nothing to do with the initial contact between Mr Brown and the officer who shot him.

Mr Brown's family have reacted angrily at what they see as a police attempt to "justify the execution-style murder".

The killing sparked days of angry clashes between police and protestors.

Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson said the officer who shot Michael Brown did not know that he had allegedly stolen goods from a nearby store.

"The initial contact between the officer and Michael Brown was not related to the robbery," he said.

Instead, he added, the reason for the stop was that Brown "was walking down the middle of the street stopping traffic".

Mr Jackson said he had released the footage of the crime only because he had been forced to do so because of numerous freedom of information requests from journalists.

He described the robbery at the convenience store as being committed without the use of a weapon.

CCTV pictures in a police report show a well-built black man intimidating a clerk in the store.

The police report identifies the man as Mr Brown, described as being 6ft 4in (193cm) and 292 pounds (132kg).

It says he "grabbed a box of Swisher Sweet cigars" and handed them to a second suspect identified as Mr Brown's friend, Dorian Johnson.

Since the shooting on Saturday, Mr Johnson has given a number of interviews in which he has said Mr Brown held up his hands in an act of surrender before being shot by the officer.

Also on Friday Mr Jackson revealed the name of the officer who shot and killed Mr Brown - Darren Wilson - and said he was injured in a struggle with Mr Brown.

Mr Wilson, is a six-year veteran of the police force with no disciplinary record, Mr Jackson said.

Mr Brown's family accused the police of being devious in their release of information.

"There is nothing based on the facts that have been placed before us that can justify the execution-style murder of their child by this police officer as he held his hands up, which is the universal sign of surrender," said a statement.

Members of the majority black Ferguson community have also reacted angrily.

Ferguson resident Milton Jackson, 37, said: "I don't believe what the officer did was called for. Even if there was a robbery, it was unnecessary force to shoot an unarmed black man."

On Thursday night, tension seemed to ease, at least momentarily, as state police took charge of security after days of violent clashes between protesters and police.

There was no sign of the heavily armed police presence of previous nights.

US Attorney General Eric Holder said the use of military equipment and vehicles in Ferguson had sent a "conflicting message", while President Barack Obama said there was no excuse for police using "excessive force".

Mr Obama has promised a full investigation by the US Department of Justice into the teenager's death, and the FBI has launched its own inquiry.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
No one seems to be

No one seems to be complaining that Brown stole the cigars. While not a serious crime, what kind of person strong arms a $50.00 box of cigars from a store? What would happen when that person who just stole the cigars and walking in the middle of the street is confronted by a police officer? Would he get out of the street and tell the officer, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake". Was that person worried about being caught for robbery?

Yes, the officer used poor judgement. Shooting the young man was an act of stupidity.

Reports of the incident say that when the officer tried to get out of the car, Brown slammed the door on the officer. A shot was fired from inside the vehicle.

Words were exchanged. Were they friendly? What do you think the young man said? "Sorry officer", putting his hands above his head, "I'm sorry! Please forgive me". No. I don't think so.

Did the young men get on the ground? No.

When the officer got out of the car the robbery suspect didn't give in. He then fought with the officer, making the officer more heightened with fear. Did the young man conceed then? No.

Not until he had been shot twice did he turn and try to get away from the officer. "I'm unarmed" his friend said.

However it was too late, four more shots were fired and the young man was on the ground dead.

The young man is dead because he was twice as stupid as the cop.

 


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15723
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
 The use of the word

 The use of the word "robbery" is bullshit. I have seen bar fights and fights as a teen between white people, where police show up and no one dies. I worked at a 7-11 and saw WHITE PEOPLE shoplift. One WHITE GUY stole several cartons of cigarrets and got physical with our store manager while trying to escape. 

I did stupid shit when I was a teen myself. I drank beer, smoked pot, and even in college saw plenty of physcial confrontations and no one died. I even stupidly smashed private property for fun. If I had been caught I would have deserved to be punushed but death?

No matter what you saw on that tape, it still does not justify shooting an unarmed persopn after they put their hands up That was shoplifting, and that shove, if done by a white person, wouldn't have even been called felony assault. 

The fact remains that blacks on average will be judged more harshly for the same similar actions than whites. I have seen far worse done by whites than what you see on that video. 

Now here is the truth, if we as a collective society don't want it to be about race, then we as a socity should fact it is a race issue. There is a disparity in how minoirites are economically impacted and viewd by law enforcment. Blacks do have to worry about being black in public. If anyone thinks they only have theirselves to blame they are assholes and are ignoring our nation's history of institutionalized deep seeded bigotry.

Race is where republicans, and the rich want the conversation to be. It is also where the gun industry wants the converation to be. Maintain the economic disparity between the top and botom, you can gett hurting white and poor republicans to point the finger at blacks instead of pointing it at the right enemy, greedy assholes pitting us against each other.

Like I have said, as a teen and young adult, seeing my white friends do far worse, to know that this video is bullshit and is merely race baiting and still would not excuse the cop from murdering an unarmed teen.

Now the other aspect of this is, if you rightfully recoil at the overly armed police AND I AGREE, that is also a product of big industry writing law for us so they do what they want regardless of how it harms the rest of us. You cannot have it both ways. You cant have a free for all market where the public is armed to the teeth then stupidly expect law inforcement not to be able to be safe. If they have to constantly fear an armed society, they are going to be trained to fear the worst and assume the worst. If we do not want that then we have to consider ourselves the AMOUNT of guns floating around. 

I am sick of people blaming blacks and even any poor person in general. I am sick of republicans and libertarians and Ayn Rand assholes claiming that "get government out of the way" helps. None of our social ills can be fixed by allowing one class of people write laws while blaming everyone else for the flood of money they pump into politics to pit working people against each other.

I am also tired of quoting RICH people and companies that AGREE WITH ME. The bottom line is that this kid did not desrve to die. The only way to take race out of the issue is to fight the real enemy, economic disparity, and that is affecting more and more white middle class and white poor people as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
 The shoplifting is

 The shoplifting is irrelevant, the officer who shot him didn't even know the crime had taken place at the time of the incident. The cop then shot him IN THE BACK. If you shoot anyone in the back, that is not self defense. The cop needs to be put on trial for murder. Just because Brown probably wasn't a good person, and maybe a criminal, does not justify murder. 

What is annoying me is the news medias obsession with turning this into a racial thing and focussing on the looting. If you look at the twitter pics being posted, you see several people of varying races joining the protests. The community is mostly black, but it looks like most of the community is standing together regardless of race. Also, while looting has happened, there are many videos of the protestors blocking the way of the looters and preventing them from getting into the stores. The people protesting are not the same people who are looting as early media reports seemed to indicate. They are just thugs taking advantage of the situation. 

Any American should be concerned with the physical power demonstrated by the police force. Arresting journalists just for sitting in a McDonalds (and not at McDonald's request) lobbing tear gas, shooting rubber bullets, flashbangs etc. That along with their refusal to be forthcoming with information about the shooting created the situation encouraging violence. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15723
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
 I have to apologize for my

 I have to apologize for my spelling errors and typos. I don't know what happened to this particular website but the spellcheck that used to work in making posts at this website does not work for me. I just copied and pasted my response in a new thread at another website and it came up there. I just switched to windows 7 "starter" and on some websites spellcheck shows up in the post editor, but for some reason here it does not.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15723
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: The

Beyond Saving wrote:

 The shoplifting is irrelevant, the officer who shot him didn't even know the crime had taken place at the time of the incident. The cop then shot him IN THE BACK. If you shoot anyone in the back, that is not self defense. The cop needs to be put on trial for murder. Just because Brown probably wasn't a good person, and maybe a criminal, does not justify murder. 

What is annoying me is the news medias obsession with turning this into a racial thing and focussing on the looting. If you look at the twitter pics being posted, you see several people of varying races joining the protests. The community is mostly black, but it looks like most of the community is standing together regardless of race. Also, while looting has happened, there are many videos of the protestors blocking the way of the looters and preventing them from getting into the stores. The people protesting are not the same people who are looting as early media reports seemed to indicate. They are just thugs taking advantage of the situation. 

Any American should be concerned with the physical power demonstrated by the police force. Arresting journalists just for sitting in a McDonalds (and not at McDonald's request) lobbing tear gas, shooting rubber bullets, flashbangs etc. That along with their refusal to be forthcoming with information about the shooting created the situation encouraging violence. 

Bullshit, first off far too much of the media, INCLUDING THE COPS are using the word "robbery".

The official story about that video has morphed out of the lips of the same PO at the press confrences. They went from "he didn't know" to "he may have known because a discription was broadcast" back to "he didn't know".

It should not fucking matter if he did know or not. It was shoplifting, not robbery, and still does not change that blacks are more likely to be profiled and presumed guilty for simpilar curcumstances.

Lets look at the possible examples.

1. Cop didn't know =dead black teen, over jaywalking

2. Cop did know=dead black teen, over shoplifting.

 

Either way, I have seen white teens and young adults do far worse and walk away from cops with warnings or mere fines.

 

Lesson, don't be black around cops. If you really think this is not a real problem you have your fucking head up your ass.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Lesson, don't

Brian37 wrote:

Lesson, don't be black around cops. If you really think this is not a real problem you have your fucking head up your ass.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf

It is a problem, but it isn't just blacks getting shot by cops. Over 400 people per year are murdered by cops while being arrested and whites make up the largest demographic. We know this number is artificially low because it relies on self reporting and at least three states didn't report anything and many states only partial reports were made. Most concerningly, most of these people killed by cops were not being arrested for what we would consider serious violent crimes. 

The issue isn't that a black man was shot, it is that an unarmed citizen was shot in the back when he clearly was not presenting an immediate danger to anyone. The issue is that the police respond with an overt show of force one would expect to see in a dictatorship. The issue is that less than 1% of police involved in these murders are ever disciplined let alone actually face trial. The issue is that a majority of people shot by police are unarmed. The issue is that police harrass anyone who attempts to film them using these brute force tactics. The issue is that SWAT teams are being used to pursue non-violent criminals, most notably drug users, but even for crimes like embezzling student loans. The issue is a police force that overreacts against citizens and looks more like an invading army than police. 

These issues go far beyond whatever racial tensions between Ferguson and its police department. Which is why I am happy to see that many of the white members of the community were out there standing alongside the blacks during the protests. No American should tolerate the authoritarianism coming from our police departments. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15723
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Lesson, don't be black around cops. If you really think this is not a real problem you have your fucking head up your ass.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf

It is a problem, but it isn't just blacks getting shot by cops. Over 400 people per year are murdered by cops while being arrested and whites make up the largest demographic. We know this number is artificially low because it relies on self reporting and at least three states didn't report anything and many states only partial reports were made. Most concerningly, most of these people killed by cops were not being arrested for what we would consider serious violent crimes. 

The issue isn't that a black man was shot, it is that an unarmed citizen was shot in the back when he clearly was not presenting an immediate danger to anyone. The issue is that the police respond with an overt show of force one would expect to see in a dictatorship. The issue is that less than 1% of police involved in these murders are ever disciplined let alone actually face trial. The issue is that a majority of people shot by police are unarmed. The issue is that police harrass anyone who attempts to film them using these brute force tactics. The issue is that SWAT teams are being used to pursue non-violent criminals, most notably drug users, but even for crimes like embezzling student loans. The issue is a police force that overreacts against citizens and looks more like an invading army than police. 

These issues go far beyond whatever racial tensions between Ferguson and its police department. Which is why I am happy to see that many of the white members of the community were out there standing alongside the blacks during the protests. No American should tolerate the authoritarianism coming from our police departments. 

 

No one is claim,ing it is just blacks, BUT by you parroting the same ignorant crap it still ignores that BETWEEN BLACKS AND WHITES, BLACKS are more affected. DONT FUCKING DANCE AROUND THAT FACT, otherwise you are perpetuating the problem.

Now again, as long as idiots like you think getting government out of the way will magically make big business behaive itself, and the pay gap has nothing to do with our social ills, and a flooded gun market is fine, and that blacks are not affected more than whites. You are part of the fucking problem.

You want the issue not to be about race then listen to the people who are affected the most instead of blaming them or copping out to "it happens to others". 

I can tell you what will help EVERYONE, but you think life is a fucking script which it is not. You want to blame everyone else except your own close minded ignorance.

I don't care if he was Jaywalking or shoplifting, he got shot because he was black around a cop. ON AVERAGE even with mere things like getting pulled over, blacks are more likely to suffer that needlessly than whites.

Your fucking problem is that you live in a bubble both economically and racially. 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15723
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
 Idiots like you would jump

 Idiots like you would jump all over the video of the looters and buring of the gas station, ignoring the fact that is still a minority of the population, and would also ignore the video of other blacks in front of the gas station where the shoplifting took place PROTECTING IT FROM LOOTERS.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:No one is

Brian37 wrote:

No one is claim,ing it is just blacks, BUT by you parroting the same ignorant crap it still ignores that BETWEEN BLACKS AND WHITES, BLACKS are more affected. DONT FUCKING DANCE AROUND THAT FACT, otherwise you are perpetuating the problem.

Who gives a shit who is affected more? It is a problem whether the victim is black, white, purple, green, red, pink or fucking flame orange. 

Quote:

Now again, as long as idiots like you think getting government out of the way will magically make big business behaive itself, and the pay gap has nothing to do with our social ills, and a flooded gun market is fine, and that blacks are not affected more than whites. You are part of the fucking problem.

Look at the bang up job government is doing for the black community. Keeping them in poverty and then shooting them for jay walking. Go ahead, defend the corrupt thugs dumb ass. I'm part of the problem? I haven't shot anyone. I didn't shoot him, big business didn't shoot him, an officer of the law shot him.

 

Quote:

You want the issue not to be about race then listen to the people who are affected the most instead of blaming them or copping out to "it happens to others". 

Because it isn't about race. It is an issue that affects everyone. You want it to be about race because that fits neatly into your script. There is zero evidence that this particular shooting had any racial motivations. It may have, it may not have. We don't have anywhere near enough of the story to draw that conclusion. The only thing we have is the cop was white and the victim was black. Not every murder across racial lines is racially motivated. The twitter pics show that the cops were equal opportunity when it came to launching tear gas at people, arresting reporters and shooting them with rubber bullets. 

 

Quote:

I can tell you what will help EVERYONE, but you think life is a fucking script which it is not. You want to blame everyone else except your own close minded ignorance.

Throwing murderous cops in jail? Punishing police brutality regardless of what race the victim is? Arming citizens so they can shoot the pigs back? I'm open to all sorts of ideas. 

 

Quote:

I don't care if he was Jaywalking or shoplifting, he got shot because he was black around a cop. ON AVERAGE even with mere things like getting pulled over, blacks are more likely to suffer that needlessly than whites.

Your fucking problem is that you live in a bubble both economically and racially. 

You have no basis for saying that. We have no clue what the officers motivations were, or even a real basis to speculate. He hasn't done a single interview yet. What we do know from the shooting, is what was reported by the eye witnesses which makes it seem pretty damn clear the shooting was not justified. Nothing I have seen suggested any racial tones in the exchange. The cop isn't reported as screaming "DIE NIGGER DIE" or anything like that. Assigning such motivations can only be done on a purely speculative basis and is an example of you trying to force the story into your premade script before we have any evidence. Maybe it WAS racially motivated, but whether or not it was racially motivated is less important than a cop shooting an unarmed citizen. And as I pointed out, these types of killings have been occurring across the country and most are clearly not racially motivated. A non-racist police murder is just as large a problem as a racially motivated one.   

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote: Idiots like

Brian37 wrote:

 Idiots like you would jump all over the video of the looters and buring of the gas station, ignoring the fact that is still a minority of the population, and would also ignore the video of other blacks in front of the gas station where the shoplifting took place PROTECTING IT FROM LOOTERS.

So either you didn't read my first post, or you are a liar. I said:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Also, while looting has happened, there are many videos of the protestors blocking the way of the looters and preventing them from getting into the stores. The people protesting are not the same people who are looting as early media reports seemed to indicate. They are just thugs taking advantage of the situation.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:No matter what

Brian37 wrote:

No matter what you saw on that tape, it still does not justify shooting an unarmed persopn after they put their hands up That was shoplifting, and that shove, if done by a white person, wouldn't have even been called felony assault. 

The fact remains that blacks on average will be judged more harshly for the same similar actions than whites. I have seen far worse done by whites than what you see on that video. 

I agree. The shooting is not an acceptable outcome of such a minor situation. What is the cop going to do, shoot every one who spits on the ground? Arrest any one that speeds? What he did was excessive.

However the entire situation has been completely pre-determined. I see media outlets that are calling it murder. Premeditated. WTF? Really? And the riots are just an excuse for people who don't give a shit about the man who died, just so they can get a new television or burn down a building.

There were some interesting facts which came out of the Trevon Martin case and in Florida the highest number of murders on blacks were (drum roll) from blacks. The highest number of break-ins on blacks, (drum roll) were from blacks. The list goes on and on.

I'm lucky, I have an education. I had a mom and a dad that pushed me to go to college. However on the other side of the tracks what do I have going on in the slums less than seven miles from my house? We have black gangs trying to take over an area where they sell their drugs. In fact I had a house on a street in the area and it was so bad during the day that I wouldn't even stop to get out and check around the house. We put an alarm on the house and the guy who installed the alarm left because blacks were threatening him. I had to call the cops to go out and protect him. What happened after the alarm was installed? They broke in to the house three times to steal appliances. Then across the street their was a shooting of a black guy by a black guy. The list goes on..

Are all blacks like this? No, but the community of blacks do nothing to stop this shit? Nothing. When a little girl got shot the community clammed up. They lied. turned out that the black uncle shot her. No one said anything.

Church and community leaders don't do any thing to stop it either. They want to be left alone to collect their big fat checks.

 


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:The cop

Beyond Saving wrote:

The cop then shot him IN THE BACK. If you shoot anyone in the back, that is not self defense. 

What is annoying me is the news medias obsession with turning this into a racial thing and focussing on the looting. 

Any American should be concerned with the physical power demonstrated by the police force. Arresting journalists just for sitting in a McDonalds (and not at McDonald's request) lobbing tear gas, shooting rubber bullets, flashbangs etc. That along with their refusal to be forthcoming with information about the shooting created the situation encouraging violence. 

I can agree on that shooting a person in the back is not self defense. There should be a trial in court not by a mob.

And I can agree with the media making this in to another race issue for their circulation numbers.

I also agree with your last statement, the police abused their power.

 

 


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15723
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
digitalbeachbum wrote:Beyond

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

The cop then shot him IN THE BACK. If you shoot anyone in the back, that is not self defense. 

What is annoying me is the news medias obsession with turning this into a racial thing and focussing on the looting. 

Any American should be concerned with the physical power demonstrated by the police force. Arresting journalists just for sitting in a McDonalds (and not at McDonald's request) lobbing tear gas, shooting rubber bullets, flashbangs etc. That along with their refusal to be forthcoming with information about the shooting created the situation encouraging violence. 

I can agree on that shooting a person in the back is not self defense. There should be a trial in court not by a mob.

And I can agree with the media making this in to another race issue for their circulation numbers.

I also agree with your last statement, the police abused their power.

 

 

No the media is not overconflating race. It is a FACT that white crime and black crime occur at relitively the same rate, but even with non violent crimes, blacks get punished more harshly. Race is an issue and until everyone accepts it is an issue, nothing will get solved. 

Anyone who claims that media and blacks are playing the race card, are idiots. That is a bullshit cop out to ignore a real problem. 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15723
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

No one is claim,ing it is just blacks, BUT by you parroting the same ignorant crap it still ignores that BETWEEN BLACKS AND WHITES, BLACKS are more affected. DONT FUCKING DANCE AROUND THAT FACT, otherwise you are perpetuating the problem.

Who gives a shit who is affected more? It is a problem whether the victim is black, white, purple, green, red, pink or fucking flame orange. 

Quote:

Now again, as long as idiots like you think getting government out of the way will magically make big business behaive itself, and the pay gap has nothing to do with our social ills, and a flooded gun market is fine, and that blacks are not affected more than whites. You are part of the fucking problem.

Look at the bang up job government is doing for the black community. Keeping them in poverty and then shooting them for jay walking. Go ahead, defend the corrupt thugs dumb ass. I'm part of the problem? I haven't shot anyone. I didn't shoot him, big business didn't shoot him, an officer of the law shot him.

 

Quote:

You want the issue not to be about race then listen to the people who are affected the most instead of blaming them or copping out to "it happens to others". 

Because it isn't about race. It is an issue that affects everyone. You want it to be about race because that fits neatly into your script. There is zero evidence that this particular shooting had any racial motivations. It may have, it may not have. We don't have anywhere near enough of the story to draw that conclusion. The only thing we have is the cop was white and the victim was black. Not every murder across racial lines is racially motivated. The twitter pics show that the cops were equal opportunity when it came to launching tear gas at people, arresting reporters and shooting them with rubber bullets. 

 

Quote:

I can tell you what will help EVERYONE, but you think life is a fucking script which it is not. You want to blame everyone else except your own close minded ignorance.

Throwing murderous cops in jail? Punishing police brutality regardless of what race the victim is? Arming citizens so they can shoot the pigs back? I'm open to all sorts of ideas. 

 

Quote:

I don't care if he was Jaywalking or shoplifting, he got shot because he was black around a cop. ON AVERAGE even with mere things like getting pulled over, blacks are more likely to suffer that needlessly than whites.

Your fucking problem is that you live in a bubble both economically and racially. 

You have no basis for saying that. We have no clue what the officers motivations were, or even a real basis to speculate. He hasn't done a single interview yet. What we do know from the shooting, is what was reported by the eye witnesses which makes it seem pretty damn clear the shooting was not justified. Nothing I have seen suggested any racial tones in the exchange. The cop isn't reported as screaming "DIE NIGGER DIE" or anything like that. Assigning such motivations can only be done on a purely speculative basis and is an example of you trying to force the story into your premade script before we have any evidence. Maybe it WAS racially motivated, but whether or not it was racially motivated is less important than a cop shooting an unarmed citizen. And as I pointed out, these types of killings have been occurring across the country and most are clearly not racially motivated. A non-racist police murder is just as large a problem as a racially motivated one.   

Proof that our species suffers from short term thinking. If you think this is about one case you are a moron. CONDITIONS, not one case. 

What the fuck do racial slurs have to do with shit? You. can be trained to fear the worst, which unfortunately cops are. And you can also subconsiously be unaware of your own bias. The people who get hurt the most by the police standard of fearing the worst are blacks. Under the same conditions whites would far less be likely to end up dead being shot while unarmed.

If you really care about things like this happening less, don't fucking pretend there is not a disparity of treatment of blacks. 

It isn't a matter of the cop being a racist himself, it is a matter of being unaware of how you are affected in your thinking and how your thinking and training affects others. Race is a factor and to claim otherwise is utter bullshit.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:No the media

Brian37 wrote:

No the media is not overconflating race. It is a FACT that white crime and black crime occur at relitively the same rate, but even with non violent crimes, blacks get punished more harshly. Race is an issue and until everyone accepts it is an issue, nothing will get solved. 

No it isn't. It is a fact that in America, blacks commit crimes at much higher rates than any other race. 

 

Quote:

Anyone who claims that media and blacks are playing the race card, are idiots. That is a bullshit cop out to ignore a real problem. 

 

It is about race to you because you see everyone by what color their skin is before anything else. You have zero evidence that the shooting was in any way racially motivated. You just decided that it must have been because you see a white cop and a black man. For someone who speaks out against stereotyping and labels, you stereotype quicker than anyone who has ever posted here.

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15723
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

No the media is not overconflating race. It is a FACT that white crime and black crime occur at relitively the same rate, but even with non violent crimes, blacks get punished more harshly. Race is an issue and until everyone accepts it is an issue, nothing will get solved. 

No it isn't. It is a fact that in America, blacks commit crimes at much higher rates than any other race. 

 

Quote:

Anyone who claims that media and blacks are playing the race card, are idiots. That is a bullshit cop out to ignore a real problem. 

 

It is about race to you because you see everyone by what color their skin is before anything else. You have zero evidence that the shooting was in any way racially motivated. You just decided that it must have been because you see a white cop and a black man. For someone who speaks out against stereotyping and labels, you stereotype quicker than anyone who has ever posted here.

 

 

 

No you are confusing incarceration rates as proof. Whites are less likely to go to jail or prison for the same crimes and if they do they get punished far less. 

You are blaming blacks because that is easier than accepting that there is a problem.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15723
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
NO DIPSHIT, you dont ignore

NO DIPSHIT, you dont ignore race to solve race issues. You accept race as the issue first then work from there.

Blacks would love race not to be the issue, you perpetuate it as an issue by not accepting it as being an issue.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:It is a FACT

Brian37 wrote:

It is a FACT that white crime and black crime occur at relitively the same rate, but even with non violent crimes, blacks get punished more harshly. Race is an issue and until everyone accepts it is an issue, nothing will get solved. 

Anyone who claims that media and blacks are playing the race card, are idiots. That is a bullshit cop out to ignore a real problem. 

Please provide sources of your facts.

Race card? I think you might have your terms mixed up.

Have you noticed that the media won't report or announce a black person robbing or killing another black person? Or if it was a white on white? When it is black and white they always make a point to say "white" and "black".

 


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Proof that our

Brian37 wrote:

Proof that our species suffers from short term thinking.

Really? we suffer?


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Whites are

Brian37 wrote:

Whites are less likely to go to jail or prison for the same crimes and if they do they get punished far less. 

I want statistics


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:No you are

Brian37 wrote:

No you are confusing incarceration rates as proof.

No, I am not. Numerous studies have been done controlling for such factors. If is an absolute fact that in the US, communities that are predominantly black suffer significantly higher crime rates than those that are predominantly white. It is a fact that crime that occurs in the US is disproportionately black on black.

 

Quote:
 

Whites are less likely to go to jail or prison for the same crimes and if they do they get punished far less. 

Yes, there are several studies that support that, and that is a problem. But what the fuck does that have to do with this shooting? The guy never got a trial, he was shot. 

 

Quote:

You are blaming blacks because that is easier than accepting that there is a problem.

WHAT THE FUCK AM I BLAMING BLACKS FOR? I'M BLAMING THE FUCKING POLICE (WHO HAPPEN TO BE WHITE) FOR BEING FUCKING THUGS AND INDISCRIMINATELY SHOOTING AMERICAN CITIZENS OF ALL COLORS. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3945
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Hmm, the police chief does

Hmm, the police chief does say that the officer was injured in a struggle with Michael Brown. And, although the officer didn't know about the robbery, it does show that Brown was not the model citizen various news sources and his family initially painted him to be.

If the officer shot him in the back as he was running away in the end, that is definitely still excessive force, and I think he should still be charged for something, but still, it's not as black and white (teehee) as the protestors are making it out to be. I.e. it's not as simple as the guy going, 'Omg, black person jaywalking, let's shoot him.' There was probably some sort of exchange, and Brown was probably a piece of shit.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3359
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: Whites

Beyond Saving wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

 

Whites are less likely to go to jail or prison for the same crimes and if they do they get punished far less. 

Yes, there are several studies that support that, and that is a problem. But what the fuck does that have to do with this shooting? The guy never got a trial, he was shot. 

 

Quote:

You are blaming blacks because that is easier than accepting that there is a problem.

WHAT THE FUCK AM I BLAMING BLACKS FOR? I'M BLAMING THE FUCKING POLICE (WHO HAPPEN TO BE WHITE) FOR BEING FUCKING THUGS AND INDISCRIMINATELY SHOOTING AMERICAN CITIZENS OF ALL COLORS. 

I am actually curious about the issue of larger black populations. The city that I currently live in has a larger majority of Hispanic and Black people living within, along with a high rate of unemployment and such. However, the mayor is black, most of the city council is black, a large majority of the judges are black, and many of the major corporations have black people in positions of management and such. 

Now I can not speak for all of the other major cities, but could it be the jail problem being primarily black stem from the fact that a large majority of the population in hypothetical city is black ? 

This may be a weak point to make, but in my hometown in New Jersey, the majority of the population is Irish, Italian, Jewish and Puerto Rican. NOW, while the town is fairly small (even though it is in route to New York City) I would be willing to bet that a large majority of crimes committed there would be Irish, Italian, Jewish and Puerto Rican (not necessarily in equal distribution but you get the idea). 

For instance, during a motorcycle run through Detroit last year, a large majority of their population, like here where I currently live is black. 

Now of course, I am revealing my ignorance of statistics and demographics here, but am wondering in my city, where the leaders are almost all black, if race is the actual issue or the population just coincides with the population majority ? Anyone know anything about this ? Cause the Cartoon Cat on the Motorcycle is quite uncertain. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 4127
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
harleysportster wrote:I am

harleysportster wrote:

I am actually curious about the issue of larger black populations. The city that I currently live in has a larger majority of Hispanic and Black people living within, along with a high rate of unemployment and such. However, the mayor is black, most of the city council is black, a large majority of the judges are black, and many of the major corporations have black people in positions of management and such. 

Now I can not speak for all of the other major cities, but could it be the jail problem being primarily black stem from the fact that a large majority of the population in hypothetical city is black ? 

This may be a weak point to make, but in my hometown in New Jersey, the majority of the population is Irish, Italian, Jewish and Puerto Rican. NOW, while the town is fairly small (even though it is in route to New York City) I would be willing to bet that a large majority of crimes committed there would be Irish, Italian, Jewish and Puerto Rican (not necessarily in equal distribution but you get the idea). 

For instance, during a motorcycle run through Detroit last year, a large majority of their population, like here where I currently live is black. 

Now of course, I am revealing my ignorance of statistics and demographics here, but am wondering in my city, where the leaders are almost all black, if race is the actual issue or the population just coincides with the population majority ? Anyone know anything about this ? Cause the Cartoon Cat on the Motorcycle is quite uncertain. 

 

  Google "FBI Uniform Crime Report" as a search term.   You may have to narrow your search from there...

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 4127
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
  New York Times reporting

  New York Times reporting Brown autopsy reveals 6 shots, entered from front. 

 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=2

 

   My link is dead. Just Google "New York Times".  It's on the front page on the left hand side.

 

   

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Idiots like me

Brian37 wrote:
Idiots like me would jump all over the video of terrorists cutting people's heads off and oppressing women, ignoring the fact that is still a minority of religious people, and would also ignore the videos of other religious people CALLING FOR PEACE AND CONDEMNING VIOLENCE AND SOCIAL INJUSTICE.



fixed.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:It is a FACT

Brian37 wrote:
It is a FACT that white crime and black crime occur at relitively the same rate



data? or do we not know what a fact is?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:Blacks would

Brian37 wrote:

Blacks would love race not to be the issue




really? i didn't know you were qualified to speak for the "blacks."

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
The autopsy results indicate

The autopsy results indicate that Michael Brown was shot six times, including two to the head; but none from behind as claimed by some eyewitnesses.  

It would appear at this point that if officer Wilson is prosecuted, it will have to be on a lesser charge, involving excessive force.  If the prosecution goes for murder, the defense will likely be able to create reasonable doubt, with eyewitness accounts not comporting with the forensic evidence, along with the alleged shoplifting incident prior to the shooting.  (Even if the officer was unaware of the incident, the defense could claim Brown thought the officer was apprehending him for it, and therefore resisted.)



 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
ProzacDeathWish wrote:New

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

New York Times reporting Brown autopsy reveals 6 shots, entered from front. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=2

My link is dead. Just Google "New York Times".  It's on the front page on the left hand side.   

I recall an blog from a law professor from a college near Atlanta back during the Trayvon Martin case. He said that racism was a term exclusive to whites.

I read this article and the people who are claiming it was murder that it was an execution, are showing racism.

It's one thing to defend/prosecute a person but when you think they are innocent/guilty because of the color of your skin, then you are a racist.

Why is it that when a black cop kills a white person it isn't murder? How come we don't see the media take up the cause and make a big deal out of it? Why doesn't the public riot?


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
digitalbeachbum wrote:Why is

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Why is it that when a black cop kills a white person it isn't murder? How come we don't see the media take up the cause and make a big deal out of it? Why doesn't the public riot?

Sure it is. There are a good 400 cops who should be going to trial this year, most of them won't. As far as I'm concerned, unless the suspect is armed and shooting at them, cops have no business using lethal force. They have non-lethal options.

Obviously, the media loves to play up the race angle for ratings. As far as public riots, I think that black communities do tend to have more conflict with police forces due to their higher crime rates which is often reacted to by more oppression from the police force. Police working such areas tend to start seeing everyone as a criminal, and therefore treat everyone like criminals. There are literally hundreds of videos of police officers cussing out people and otherwise acting extremely unprofessional on youtube.

Who knows who started it, but when the police treat the population like shit, the population treats the police like shit and both reinforce the attitude of the other. When it reaches that point, and some cop shoots/beats or uses excessive force on someone, the details of why stop to matter even if the particular use of force was arguably justifiable. The distrust between the police and the citizens reaches such high levels of animosity that bad things are going to happen. That is why I think the police in this case made the largest mistake of not being immediately open and transparent with the case. They left people with no info other than that from the witnesses willing to talk to the news media, and among a population that doesn't trust police in the first place, that looks really bad. 

It is also why I think that all police should be wearing a camera 100% of the time. Cameras are a miniscule expense compared to what they have spent on weaponry and having non-stop video of incidents like this prevents it from being just the cop's word against the witnesses. Also, police departments could then monitor their officers more carefully for professional behavior. A police officer should always be professional and respectful, even if they are being harrassed by someone who isn't. Gaining the respect of the population goes much further towards controlling crime and preventing riots than brute force. 

Anyway, that is my theory FWIW. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
From the bookmarks

harleysportster wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

 

Whites are less likely to go to jail or prison for the same crimes and if they do they get punished far less. 

Yes, there are several studies that support that, and that is a problem. But what the fuck does that have to do with this shooting? The guy never got a trial, he was shot. 

 

Quote:

You are blaming blacks because that is easier than accepting that there is a problem.

WHAT THE FUCK AM I BLAMING BLACKS FOR? I'M BLAMING THE FUCKING POLICE (WHO HAPPEN TO BE WHITE) FOR BEING FUCKING THUGS AND INDISCRIMINATELY SHOOTING AMERICAN CITIZENS OF ALL COLORS. 

I am actually curious about the issue of larger black populations. The city that I currently live in has a larger majority of Hispanic and Black people living within, along with a high rate of unemployment and such. However, the mayor is black, most of the city council is black, a large majority of the judges are black, and many of the major corporations have black people in positions of management and such. 

Now I can not speak for all of the other major cities, but could it be the jail problem being primarily black stem from the fact that a large majority of the population in hypothetical city is black ? 

This may be a weak point to make, but in my hometown in New Jersey, the majority of the population is Irish, Italian, Jewish and Puerto Rican. NOW, while the town is fairly small (even though it is in route to New York City) I would be willing to bet that a large majority of crimes committed there would be Irish, Italian, Jewish and Puerto Rican (not necessarily in equal distribution but you get the idea). 

For instance, during a motorcycle run through Detroit last year, a large majority of their population, like here where I currently live is black. 

Now of course, I am revealing my ignorance of statistics and demographics here, but am wondering in my city, where the leaders are almost all black, if race is the actual issue or the population just coincides with the population majority ? Anyone know anything about this ? Cause the Cartoon Cat on the Motorcycle is quite uncertain. 

http://faculty.washington.edu/matsueda/courses/371/Readings/Tonry%20and%20Melewski.pdf

This paper suggests that about 60% of racial disparity is explained by actual higher crime rates.

 

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1144078

This paper highlights some of the problems with indigent defense. Which, there is no question, that the poor performance of public defenders has much to do with poor people getting longer and more jail sentences. Since blacks are disproportionately poor, this hurts their demographic more. 
 

http://www.jstor.org/stable/27977188

This article is a study done in Missippi comparing different systems of public defenders. While not directly related to the issue of race, I thought it was interesting and it did find that indigent defense in urban areas had worse performance than rural areas. Since urban areas tend to be higher minority, this also hurts blacks more than whites.

That is all I can find on my bookshelf on the topic. I read another really good article "Effectively Ineffective: The Failure of Courts to Address Underfunded Indigent Defense Systems" in the Harvard Law Review March 2005, but they charge for that one (commies at Harvard are apparently greedy capitalists). You might be able to access it through your local library.  


My contention is that much of the racial disparity that exists has more to do with things like higher poverty rates, more urban areas which have higher crime and therefore a heavier caseload on public defenders and other factors that puts the black community at a disadvantage more than overt intentional racism. And the discussion of why the black community is poorer, has higher crime, worse education etc. is a related but much larger topic full of much debate and emotions. 
 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3359
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
digitalbeachbum wrote: I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

 

I recall an blog from a law professor from a college near Atlanta back during the Trayvon Martin case. He said that racism was a term exclusive to whites.

 

I have heard that as well and I personally call bullshit on that particular claim. 

I can specifially recall certain groups in New York on camera (and not just the Nation Of Islam or the New Panther Party) that if you changed the word white to black, you would not have been able to tell the difference between a Nazi Skinhead and their speech. An almost equal hatred of Jewish people were espoused by them as well. (I can not name a specific, but I do remember when that Giuliani, whom I did not like won, these very groups were claiming he was a "puppet for the Jews".

I have heard people say that no one else can be racist but whites, but that statement in of itself, is a racist one if you ask me. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I recall an blog from a law professor from a college near Atlanta back during the Trayvon Martin case. He said that racism was a term exclusive to whites.

I have heard that as well and I personally call bullshit on that particular claim. 

I can specifially recall certain groups in New York on camera (and not just the Nation Of Islam or the New Panther Party) that if you changed the word white to black, you would not have been able to tell the difference between a Nazi Skinhead and their speech. An almost equal hatred of Jewish people were espoused by them as well. (I can not name a specific, but I do remember when that Giuliani, whom I did not like won, these very groups were claiming he was a "puppet for the Jews".

I have heard people say that no one else can be racist but whites, but that statement in of itself, is a racist one if you ask me. 

I think that racism is a bullshit claim in itself. We are the human race? Correct? Blacks are the same race as whites, yellows, greens, reds, etc.

 


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Why is it that when a black cop kills a white person it isn't murder? How come we don't see the media take up the cause and make a big deal out of it? Why doesn't the public riot?

It is also why I think that all police should be wearing a camera 100% of the time. Cameras are a miniscule expense compared to what they have spent on weaponry and having non-stop video of incidents like this prevents it from being just the cop's word against the witnesses. Also, police departments could then monitor their officers more carefully for professional behavior. A police officer should always be professional and respectful, even if they are being harrassed by someone who isn't. Gaining the respect of the population goes much further towards controlling crime and preventing riots than brute force. 

Anyway, that is my theory FWIW. 

Yeah, I have been hearing about the camera mounted on the chest or something. They said that in cases where the camera was present on the body of the cop that the people stopped being verbally abusive.

Personally? I think that there should be personal hover crafts for each car. The police could release it, remote control it, never get out of the car. New devices now have a tracking system. If the cop is wearing the device on his person the hover craft will follow them and with multiple cameras you get a bird eye view of the situation.

I just submitted a suggestion to Airdog which is the first tracking drone made for sports. It could be modified to track a cop. He could release the drone which would go up in the air then follow the car (because they are inside). If needed they could stop the car, then push a button and have it return to base. A simple locking mechanism with magnets could lock it back in to position (and always charging it while the car runs). 100%, 360, birds eye view.

 


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3359
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

http://faculty.washington.edu/matsueda/courses/371/Readings/Tonry%20and%20Melewski.pdf

This paper suggests that about 60% of racial disparity is explained by actual higher crime rates.

 

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1144078

This paper highlights some of the problems with indigent defense. Which, there is no question, that the poor performance of public defenders has much to do with poor people getting longer and more jail sentences. Since blacks are disproportionately poor, this hurts their demographic more. 
 

http://www.jstor.org/stable/27977188

This article is a study done in Missippi comparing different systems of public defenders. While not directly related to the issue of race, I thought it was interesting and it did find that indigent defense in urban areas had worse performance than rural areas. Since urban areas tend to be higher minority, this also hurts blacks more than whites.

That is all I can find on my bookshelf on the topic. I read another really good article "Effectively Ineffective: The Failure of Courts to Address Underfunded Indigent Defense Systems" in the Harvard Law Review March 2005, but they charge for that one (commies at Harvard are apparently greedy capitalists). You might be able to access it through your local library.  

Thanks for those links I will read them when I get a chance. 

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

My contention is that much of the racial disparity that exists has more to do with things like higher poverty rates, more urban areas which have higher crime and therefore a heavier caseload on public defenders and other factors that puts the black community at a disadvantage more than overt intentional racism. And the discussion of why the black community is poorer, has higher crime, worse education etc. is a related but much larger topic full of much debate and emotions. 
 

That is quite true. I would not even know where to begin to touch upon a subject that far out. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3359
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
digitalbeachbum wrote: I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

 

I think that racism is a bullshit claim in itself. We are the human race? Correct? Blacks are the same race as whites, yellows, greens, reds, etc.

 

Well that is quite true. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 15723
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: The

Beyond Saving wrote:

 The shoplifting is irrelevant, the officer who shot him didn't even know the crime had taken place at the time of the incident. The cop then shot him IN THE BACK. If you shoot anyone in the back, that is not self defense. The cop needs to be put on trial for murder. Just because Brown probably wasn't a good person, and maybe a criminal, does not justify murder. 

What is annoying me is the news medias obsession with turning this into a racial thing and focussing on the looting. If you look at the twitter pics being posted, you see several people of varying races joining the protests. The community is mostly black, but it looks like most of the community is standing together regardless of race. Also, while looting has happened, there are many videos of the protestors blocking the way of the looters and preventing them from getting into the stores. The people protesting are not the same people who are looting as early media reports seemed to indicate. They are just thugs taking advantage of the situation. 

Any American should be concerned with the physical power demonstrated by the police force. Arresting journalists just for sitting in a McDonalds (and not at McDonald's request) lobbing tear gas, shooting rubber bullets, flashbangs etc. That along with their refusal to be forthcoming with information about the shooting created the situation encouraging violence. 

 

The story of if the cop knew or did not know morphed over time. STILL DOES NOT MEAN SHIT TO ME either way. 

Cop didn't know= jaywalking leads to a dead black teen

Cop knew=petty theft and misdemeanor assault leads to a dead black teen.

 

You want to blame blacks and the poor and which says to me your sample rate sucks even if you claim to talk to blacks. Their high arrest rate is due to being targeted more and punished more. You do not take into account police calls under simliar claims where whites are pulled over or whites are suspects where whites are MORE LIKELY to make it to the back of the police car safely or be charged less or not charged at all. Only a fucking moron thinks blacks are complaining for no reason.

Now if you seriously do not want race to be a problem then don't blame blacks for pointing out that race is still a problem. 

You and I did not need "that talk" as kids growing up about what to do if a cop approaches you. Expand your sample rate and talk to more blacks. You will find if you do that, you'll know that blacks have to have that "talk" with their kids.

Just like economics you live in a bubble and want to blame everyone else for your own ignorance.

I have seen whites get away with far worse and still make it to the back of a police car safely or not be charged at all.

Now you do not have to be racist to be unawar of your own subconcious biases. I would suggest you expand your sample rate and talk to blacks of ALL economic backgrounds. Not just the people you know.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:It is a FACT

Brian37 wrote:
It is a FACT that white crime and black crime occur at relitively the same rate...
 

 

Brian37 wrote:
You want to blame blacks and the poor and which says to me your sample rate sucks even if you claim to talk to blacks. Their high arrest rate is due to being targeted more and punished more.
 

 

Which is it?  Same rate or higher rate?

Or is your point that despite the FACT that whites and blacks commit crimes at the relatively same rate, blacks are arrested at a disproportionately higher rate?

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 4197
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is offlineOffline
never mind the FACT that who


never mind the FACT that who actually commits crimes is impossible to determine on any large scale. you can go by arrests, convictions, traffic stops, tickets written, or all of the above, but none of those prove who committed the crime in any absolute sense. so, that "whites" commit crimes at the same rate as "blacks" is a proposition. it can never qualify as a FACT.

sorry, i'm spouting woo philosophy again...

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 3909
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: The

Beyond Saving wrote:

 The shoplifting is irrelevant, the officer who shot him didn't even know the crime had taken place at the time of the incident. The cop then shot him IN THE BACK. If you shoot anyone in the back, that is not self defense. The cop needs to be put on trial for murder.

The autopsy supports the officers version, not the shot in the back with his hands in air. The shoplifting tape is relevant. If the officer goes on trial, you have to consider the mindset Mr. Brown at the time, which was I'm going to break the law and be violent with anyone that gets in my way.

Thanks to the welfare state, racial pimps like Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and white guilt, many ghetto blacks feel they are entitled to steal and loot.

Again the answer to problems like this is technology. Any cop that carries a weapon needs to wear a camera with recoded video. Tasers need to be used if possible. Justice in this case would not be the cop going to jail, but rather the police department being sued for not using technology to prevent deaths. This would force more police departments to start using modern technology instead of the 19th century technology of just a pistol.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Brian37 wrote:The story of

Brian37 wrote:

The story of if the cop knew or did not know morphed over time. STILL DOES NOT MEAN SHIT TO ME either way. 

Cop didn't know= jaywalking leads to a dead black teen

Cop knew=petty theft and misdemeanor assault leads to a dead black teen.

Um, I have agreed with this point every step of the way. If he was a psychopathic seriel killer and the cop knew it does not justify shooting him unarmed. Why do you insist on yelling at me when we agree?

 

Quote:

You want to blame blacks and the poor and which says to me your sample rate sucks even if you claim to talk to blacks. Their high arrest rate is due to being targeted more and punished more. You do not take into account police calls under simliar claims where whites are pulled over or whites are suspects where whites are MORE LIKELY to make it to the back of the police car safely or be charged less or not charged at all. Only a fucking moron thinks blacks are complaining for no reason.

First of all, it isn't my claim. I have never conducted any sort of study to determine crime rates. I have simply read studies by such right wing extremists as Harvard Law Review. There have been countless studies done on the subject using things like victimization surveys to compare against the official numbers and to correct for things like institutional racism. Instead of being an ignorant fuck, try reading the papers I linked to for Harley. If you want to argue against them, feel free, you are arguing against the conclusions reached by the whole field of criminology.

And no, whites do NOT have a higher chance of reaching the car safely. I linked you to those numbers, and in the case of being injured in custody, there is no clear racial bias. Your statistical odds of dying in police custody are pretty much the same regardless of race. They are higher if you are male, or if you have a mental disorder. (Some studies have suggested that as many as 40% of people who are shot by police while unarmed have diagnosable and significant mental disorders)

 

Quote:

Now if you seriously do not want race to be a problem then don't blame blacks for pointing out that race is still a problem.

Are you black? Is the media black? Because those are the only two groups I have blamed. From what I have heard from the protestors, most of them are not portraying this as a racial problem.

 

Quote:
 

Just like economics you live in a bubble and want to blame everyone else for your own ignorance.

lol, you call me ignorant. Do you have any peer reviewed studies that support your claims?

 

Quote:

I have seen whites get away with far worse and still make it to the back of a police car safely or not be charged at all.

Many blacks make it to the back of the police car safely too- just look at the sheer number accused of murder, bank robbery, rape etc. that are arrested without dying every year. Your anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, and I doubt you have witnessed a significant number of arrests. Fortunately, we have people who study these things for a living and they write papers about their studies, which give us a pretty good idea of what is happening and areas where racism on the micro and on the systematic level might be a problem.

 

Quote:

Now you do not have to be racist to be unawar of your own subconcious biases. I would suggest you expand your sample rate and talk to blacks of ALL economic backgrounds. Not just the people you know.

Middle class blacks have crime rates and arrest rates are not significantly higher than middle class whites. Also, black immigrants have lower crime and lower arrest rates than whites born here. Countless studies have found that age, poverty, education and geographic area are the largest predictors of who is going to commit violent and property crimes. (It is also the largest predictor of who is going to be victimized by the crime) 

http://www.cjcj.org/uploads/cjcj/documents/Does_age.pdf

You can deny it all you want, but there have been people much smarter than either me or you who have asked these questions, and have come up with some pretty good answers. Instead of assuming you know everything based on peoples' skin colors, try reading a little you racist fuck.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
I thought I read somewhere

I thought I read somewhere that the cop was aware of the robbery, but wasn't approaching the kid as a suspect?

Anyway, pretty much everything I have to say on the topic has already been said, so I'll just mosey on by.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Um, I

Beyond Saving wrote:

Um, I have agreed with this point every step of the way. If he was a psychopathic seriel killer and the cop knew it does not justify shooting him unarmed. Why do you insist on yelling at me when we agree?

This coming from a person who tells me shooting to maim isn't an option.

 


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5448
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
digitalbeachbum wrote:Beyond

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Um, I have agreed with this point every step of the way. If he was a psychopathic seriel killer and the cop knew it does not justify shooting him unarmed. Why do you insist on yelling at me when we agree?

This coming from a person who tells me shooting to maim isn't an option.

 

I don't think the officer was justified pulling the trigger at all, and maybe not even justified in drawing his weapon. Of course, all we have are eye witnesses that may or may not be reliable. My main criticism is how the police have responded and the massive force they have used to respond. It certainly makes the appearence that they intend to cover it up. The officer responsible should be charged and should face trial in court. Whether the force he used was excessive can be determined there where much more of the story than we have been told can be brought to light.

There is a systematic problem with officers killing unarmed suspects in custody and never even facing trial. Virtually all of them should face a trial as I likely would if I ever had to use my gun in self defense. Dismissing the case should only occur in circumstances where there is no question that the suspect was armed and was using potentially lethal force against the cops or a bystander. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote: I don't

Beyond Saving wrote:

I don't think the officer was justified pulling the trigger at all, and maybe not even justified in drawing his weapon. Of course, all we have are eye witnesses that may or may not be reliable. My main criticism is how the police have responded and the massive force they have used to respond. It certainly makes the appearence that they intend to cover it up. The officer responsible should be charged and should face trial in court. Whether the force he used was excessive can be determined there where much more of the story than we have been told can be brought to light.

There is a systematic problem with officers killing unarmed suspects in custody and never even facing trial. Virtually all of them should face a trial as I likely would if I ever had to use my gun in self defense. Dismissing the case should only occur in circumstances where there is no question that the suspect was armed and was using potentially lethal force against the cops or a bystander. 

I had two cops pointing a 9mm at my head during a traffic stop at 3am in the morning. I was scared for my life and for my buddy who was in the front seat. The reason for pulling me over was bullshit and they didn't even show up for court, the judge actually apologized for the stupidity of the cops. The main citation was for "accelerating too quickly"?

I'm often reminded of what I learned from my father and from my training in the USMC. When pulled over, put your hands on the steering wheel. If you are in another seat. put your hands up in front of you on the dash or the seat in front. Move slowly and be polite, even if they are being abusive. Diminish the reason for them to be aggrassive or violent. Use yes sir or yes ma'am as needed. Don't be sarcastic. Don't be a dick.

That night when I got pulled over I followed the rules taught to me even though they were in the wrong. Being white I might have had an edge, but honestly it could have ended differently if I tried a different, more aggressive path.

What path do you think Mr. Brown took?

Had the cop been shot at previously? Had friends on the force die or be wounded from suspects? Where do you draw the line at being defensive and offensive as a cop? Obviously the cop didn't know Mr. Brown so when they meet the cop is on the defensive. Who is this person and why are they talking to me in this manner? What is his angle? Why is he being verbally abusive? Why is his body language as such?

Mr. Brown I wish were still alive, but he isn't. I'm suspecting that the truth will come out and show that their will be gun powder residue on the clothing. It will show that Mr. Brown was close to the officer when the gun was fired. Did the officer need to fire six times? Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't.

I never want to be in a situation where I must think about killing another human. I believe that the officer could have handled it differently from the inital encounter, but I believe Mr. Brown was already in a frame of mind where he was going to start trouble. I believe his friend is lying and withholding information. I believe Mr. Brown showed his true intentions when he slammed his forearm in to the chest of the shop owner, knocking him back. When the shop owner went after him, look at Mr. Brown's reaction. You can see Mr. Brown's body language in the video. Look at it. "I'm a mean mother fucker and if you fuck with me I'm going to beat the living shit out of you".

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/heres-the-surveillance-video-allegedly-showing-michael-browns-robbery/

Mr. Brown took the wrong path when he decided to rob the shop and for that he is now dead.

 


digitalbeachbum
atheistRational VIP!
digitalbeachbum's picture
Posts: 4901
Joined: 2007-10-15
User is offlineOffline
 I'd like to point out in

 I'd like to point out in recent videos I've watched, the friend Dorin Johnson, took part in the robbery. He knew that his buddy wasn't paying for the stuff and actually held the stuff and then left with it. He should have been charged with accessory to robbery.