How we can defeat the violence of the world

digitalbeachbum
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How we can defeat the violence of the world

I have an idea, not a practical one, but one that is plausible. 

We can stop violence in the world one country at a time. Just reduce the testosterone in the population by putting something in the water, beer, wine, etc

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58251613-78/cieri-testosterone-humans-ago.html.csp

 


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I hold that violence is as

I hold that violence is as much a result of life as gravity is a result of having mass. I do not believe a single hormone is responsible for violence, and that manipulating it would result in a violence free society. It may be capable of reducing violence within certain margins, but I would require a hell of a lot of evidence to believe it could actually eliminate violence completely.

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Vastet wrote:I hold that

Vastet wrote:
I hold that violence is as much a result of life as gravity is a result of having mass. I do not believe a single hormone is responsible for violence, and that manipulating it would result in a violence free society. It may be capable of reducing violence within certain margins, but I would require a hell of a lot of evidence to believe it could actually eliminate violence completely.

Seems you are correct, but look at the last paragraph.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-testosterone-alone-doesnt-cause-violence/

They should do an experiement on those violent in the prison system. Spike their food, then see what happens.


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The problem with that, I

The problem with that, I think, is the stressors in prison would overwhelm any chemical alterations. Prisons are crowded and unsafe locations where you are stripped of control and treated as less than a person. Where you can't depend on those in authority to provide you with a safe environment. Indeed, those authorities tend to end up classified as enemies just so the average inmate can fit in with the population.

I don't think a prison would be a good place to test this hypothesis.

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Vastet wrote:The problem

Vastet wrote:
The problem with that, I think, is the stressors in prison would overwhelm any chemical alterations. Prisons are crowded and unsafe locations where you are stripped of control and treated as less than a person. Where you can't depend on those in authority to provide you with a safe environment. Indeed, those authorities tend to end up classified as enemies just so the average inmate can fit in with the population. I don't think a prison would be a good place to test this hypothesis.

While I agree that a prison is filled with stress for inmates, if you took away the reason for the stress it would change the prisoner. Only the more serious, mental, completely off the rail prisoner would still mentally function in the same way. Other prisoners who no longer need to fight for superiority would feel safe rather being on edge 24/7.

 


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There's certainly truth in

There's certainly truth in that, but the other factors are still significant. All the prisoners becoming cute puppies incapable of hurting a fly overnight wouldn't change the lack of freedom and control, nor the cramped conditions nor the way they are treated by authority. It would basically be the most extreme test of the hypothesis: could an attempt to pacify a population which is under severe stress to NOT be passive actually work, or do the stressors in play overcome the method used and possibly even increase stress on the populations bodies by trying to force them to do something that goes against millions of years of evolution? *Or something else?*
If the second, then just attempting this could kill people. I still think it would be better to start elsewhere. Something a little less ambitious.

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Vastet wrote:There's

Vastet wrote:
There's certainly truth in that, but the other factors are still significant. All the prisoners becoming cute puppies incapable of hurting a fly overnight wouldn't change the lack of freedom and control, nor the cramped conditions nor the way they are treated by authority. It would basically be the most extreme test of the hypothesis: could an attempt to pacify a population which is under severe stress to NOT be passive actually work, or do the stressors in play overcome the method used and possibly even increase stress on the populations bodies by trying to force them to do something that goes against millions of years of evolution? *Or something else?* If the second, then just attempting this could kill people. I still think it would be better to start elsewhere. Something a little less ambitious.

Ever see this? 

http://www.dhammabrothers.com/

I find it interesting that when they started doing it, and successfully, the christian "leader" of the prison system said that they were practicing/teaching buddhism. When I heard that I was like "wtf? where is the freedom of religion?" However it did work and it does work and the entire prison system could benefit from it.


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I'd never heard of it

I'd never heard of it actually. Interesting clip. I could probably talk about it quite a bit.

The main problem in the US it that prisons are generally private institutions, if not completely private institutions. Not to mention that the prisons aren't federally maintained, but on the state level. You'd never be able to do something on a huge scale in the US because of that.

If it really works consistently, then it will spread slowly from prison to prison and state to state. I have confidence in humanities ability to make the right decisions, but usually the big ones take a generation or 3 before they really get moving.
Smoking being bad was par for the course for centuries before anyone could come close to proving it was unhealthy. Then we got some evidence that there was a link between smoking and cancer somewhere in the early 1900's if I recall correctly. The evidence started stacking up in the 50s to 70s, and by the 80s basically everyone accepted that it could kill you. It wasn't until the 90s that it started to be criminalised, and you couldn't smoke in a workplace or an aeroplane. It'll probably be another 20 years before it gets banned, if it gets banned. It might. It shouldn't be, but I can't say it's bad that we know it can cause death. People should be able to make informed decisions in my view, even if they aren't necessarily good decisions.
The same can be said for women's rights, anti-slavery, gay rights, democracy, the napoleonic code, and every other major change in society. If it's better than the previous system, we'll adopt it. It'll just take awhile, because usually the people around at the time a movement starts have to die of old age before a big change can happen on a large scale.

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Vastet wrote:I'd never heard

Vastet wrote:
I'd never heard of it actually. Interesting clip. I could probably talk about it quite a bit. The main problem in the US it that prisons are generally private institutions, if not completely private institutions. Not to mention that the prisons aren't federally maintained, but on the state level. You'd never be able to do something on a huge scale in the US because of that. If it really works consistently, then it will spread slowly from prison to prison and state to state. I have before it gets banned, if it gets banned. It might. It shouldn't be, but I can't say it's bad that we know it can cause death. People should be able to make informed decisions in my view, even if they aren't necessarily good decisions. The same can be said for women's rights, anti-slavery, gay rights, democracy, the napoleonic code, and every other major change in society. If it's better than the previous system, we'll adopt it. It'll just take awhile, because usually the people around at the time a movement starts have to die of old age before a big change can happen on a large scale.

Unfortunantley this is a two way street. Things which are good get removed because of costs or ideologies. Then things which are bad get pushed forward as a standard because of costs or ideologies.

As for smoking, those vapor pipes are really taking things by storm. I have a friend who was a very heavy smoker start using one of those. He quit hacking, coughing, can breath again, started to exercise again. He told me that they saved his life, but they are so new that he doesn't even know what is in the liquid. He said he does have some fear that they will start to tax and abuse the devices, but feels the pros out weigh the cons.

I hope smoking is completely banned eventually and that cigerettes go the way of dodo bird


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I hope

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I hope smoking is completely banned eventually....

 

                           Of course you do.

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Vastet wrote:... evidence

Vastet wrote:
... evidence started stacking up in the 50s to 70s, and by the 80s basically everyone accepted that it could kill you. ..( snip ) ..... It shouldn't be, but I can't say it's bad that we know it can cause death. People should be able to make informed decisions in my view, even if they aren't necessarily good decisions.

 

                                   Totally agree.  PS, I don't smoke.

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Vastet wrote:I hold that

Vastet wrote:
I hold that violence is as much a result of life as gravity is a result of having mass. I do not believe a single hormone is responsible for violence, and that manipulating it would result in a violence free society. It may be capable of reducing violence within certain margins, but I would require a hell of a lot of evidence to believe it could actually eliminate violence completely.

If you are not aware of how your body works you are not aware of how your hormones can affect your thinking. NO, hormones are not responsible for everything, but it does not help placing your actions on magic, superstition, and social norms. It does help to understand scientifically how our hormones affect us.

I know damned well how stupid I was with my body and hornyness and idealism and my hormones and ignorance combined caused me to do some really stupid shit.

But I agree I don't see what digital suggest is viable and it would raise eithical questions as well. 

I am old enough now to be able to bitch and be raked over the coals without feeling the need to get violent over it. When I was younger, there would have been a time where if you called  me names, or if my boss pushed me too hard at work, or if a girl rejected me, I would have over reacted. 

I am glad I do not have those hormones I did as a teen and young adult. 

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digitalbeachbum wrote:I have

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I have an idea, not a practical one, but one that is plausible. 

We can stop violence in the world one country at a time. Just reduce the testosterone in the population by putting something in the water, beer, wine, etc

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58251613-78/cieri-testosterone-humans-ago.html.csp

 

I don't see this as ever being viable. But I agree, testosterone is a powerful hormone which can push humans to violence. It has the evolutionary benifit of survival, but the downside is that it benifits a win at the expense of a loss. But in theory it would be nice to have some sort of "chill pill". I think knowing scientifically how our bodies work is pragmatic.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I hope smoking is completely banned eventually....

 

                           Of course you do.

I hope you are banned too Sticking out tongue


Beyond Saving
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 The best way to ensure

 The best way to ensure peace is free trade. No one kills the person who makes them a profit.


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Beyond Saving wrote: The

Beyond Saving wrote:

 The best way to ensure peace is free trade. No one kills the person who makes them a profit.

Very interesting point, unless you are a religious fanatic.

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Beyond

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 The best way to ensure peace is free trade. No one kills the person who makes them a profit.

Very interesting point, unless you are a religious fanatic.

 

Even religious fanatics can be persuaded by cash. Look at the Christnut televangelists. Or Saudi Arabia- religiously they are nutty but somehow end up being our allies because they make so much money selling us oil. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:If you are not

Brian37 wrote:
If you are not aware of how your body works you are not aware of how your hormones can affect your thinking. NO, hormones are not responsible for everything, but it does not help placing your actions on magic, superstition, and social norms. It does help to understand scientifically how our hormones affect us.

I know damned well how stupid I was with my body and hornyness and idealism and my hormones and ignorance combined caused me to do some really stupid shit.

But I agree I don't see what digital suggest is viable and it would raise eithical questions as well. 

I am old enough now to be able to bitch and be raked over the coals without feeling the need to get violent over it. When I was younger, there would have been a time where if you called  me names, or if my boss pushed me too hard at work, or if a girl rejected me, I would have over reacted. 

I am glad I do not have those hormones I did as a teen and young adult.

How unsurprising that you'd quote me and yet not refer to a single thing I've ever said. If I owned this site I'd remove your ability to quote people. You don't know how quoting works.

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digitalbeachbum wrote:I have

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I have an idea, not a practical one, but one that is plausible. 

We can stop violence in the world one country at a time. Just reduce the testosterone in the population by putting something in the water, beer, wine, etc

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58251613-78/cieri-testosterone-humans-ago.html.csp

 

You would prefer population control via starvation and poverty over via war and violence? Population pressures cause people to suffer, but they should just be content to starve to death peacefully?

If people had adequate food, clothing, shelter and medicine, why would there be a need to fight? If you take the Jewish/Palestinian conflict, it is obviously too many people with too little land and water to support them all.

But of course mandatory birth control must never be considered. It's all just those evil Jews or evil Hamas, just pick your side as the mass media's useful idiot.

Men contribute more to fields like science, art, heavy industry, construction, etc... We can thank testosterone for that. I guess you want a world where we all love each other as we all die in poverty.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


digitalbeachbum
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EXC wrote:digitalbeachbum

EXC wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:

I have an idea, not a practical one, but one that is plausible. 

We can stop violence in the world one country at a time. Just reduce the testosterone in the population by putting something in the water, beer, wine, etc

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58251613-78/cieri-testosterone-humans-ago.html.csp

You would prefer population control via starvation and poverty over via war and violence? Population pressures cause people to suffer, but they should just be content to starve to death peacefully? If people had adequate food, clothing, shelter and medicine, why would there be a need to fight? If you take the Jewish/Palestinian conflict, it is obviously too many people with too little land and water to support them all. But of course mandatory birth control must never be considered. It's all just those evil Jews or evil Hamas, just pick your side as the mass media's useful idiot. Men contribute more to fields like science, art, heavy industry, construction, etc... We can thank testosterone for that. I guess you want a world where we all love each other as we all die in poverty.

Over population? hmmm I just think their being dicks.


Vastet
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EXC wrote:digitalbeachbum

EXC wrote:
digitalbeachbum wrote:

I have an idea, not a practical one, but one that is plausible. 

We can stop violence in the world one country at a time. Just reduce the testosterone in the population by putting something in the water, beer, wine, etc

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58251613-78/cieri-testosterone-humans-ago.html.csp

 

You would prefer population control via starvation and poverty over via war and violence? Population pressures cause people to suffer, but they should just be content to starve to death peacefully?

If people had adequate food, clothing, shelter and medicine, why would there be a need to fight? If you take the Jewish/Palestinian conflict, it is obviously too many people with too little land and water to support them all.

But of course mandatory birth control must never be considered. It's all just those evil Jews or evil Hamas, just pick your side as the mass media's useful idiot.

Men contribute more to fields like science, art, heavy industry, construction, etc... We can thank testosterone for that. I guess you want a world where we all love each other as we all die in poverty.

I'd love to see you present that to Israel and Hamas. Whether they'd stare at you, ignore you, or shoot you, it'd be interesting.
Just how exactly do you think that's a viable strategy?

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