Was consumption of meat to man's larger brain/intelligence only a claim? Man was mainly a fruit eater?

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Was consumption of meat to man's larger brain/intelligence only a claim? Man was mainly a fruit eater?

From what I gather

 

there is NO generally accepted scientific theory that holds that eating large amounts of animal protein caused us to increase our abilities regarding abstract thought. Far from it! We don't even know for certain the amounts of meat our ancestors ate. It's just guesswork.  Though a common and well accepted guess We are primates. Primates eat plants. Our ancestors most likely ate just like other primates. Mostly plants! We are apes. Gorillas eat 98% of their calories from plants. Chimps eat 96% of their calories fro.

 

himps and bonobos are our closest relatives. They get over 96% of their calories from plants. About 2% from insects and 2% from meat. We would be SO much healthier if we kept our meat consumption as low as that.

 

the common misconception people make is that they think eating meat was a fad that started when Homo sapiens diverged from Pan troglodytes nearly 7 million years ago. It isn't. It's always been in our nature, yet we made much, much greater use of it in order to expand our range from the tropics all the way to the Arctic. Ability to survive on something does not equal that thing being IDEAL for health or longevity! We are primate. (There is no question of that.) Of more than 250 species of primate, all but one eat the vast majority from plants. We are most closely related to the great apes. ALL eat the overwhelming majority of their calories from plants. No less a scientific genius than Carl Linnaeus (the guy that created our system of animal classification) looked at the comparative anatomy between humans and other animals and declared we should be frugivores (fruit-eaters).

 

Man relied on meat more and more as we expanded our range into colder regions. But, that didn't change the facts that plant foods are more ideal for our health and longevity.
Michael J. Benton, British paleontologist, Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, and Professor of Vertebrate Paleontology in the Department of Earth Sciences at The University of Bristol wrote: "The apes, Hominidae, today include the gibbons and orang-utan ... the gorilla and chimpanzee ... and humans."
Carl Linnaeus writes: “Man’s structure, internal and external compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables are his natural food.” 
Jared Diamond is a professor of anthropology at UCLA. Diamond has written off the notion of man the hunter as a romantic myth: “Big-game hunting added little to our food intake until after we had evolved fully modern anatomy and behavior.” Instead, our earliest ancestors lived on the wild fruit, nuts, seeds and tubers that they gathered. Mr. Diamond puts it succinctly: “I doubt the usual view that hunting was the driving force behind our uniquely human brain and societies. For most of our history, we were not mighty hunters but rather sophisticated baboons. And what food makes up the bulk of a baboon diet? Fruit, of course. So, for most of their history, humans were fruitarians."

 

 

Human breast milk is about 1% protein, and almost 8% carbohydrate (mostly lactose). That low level of protein is the perfect food for a newborn that is increasing its body weight faster than at any other time in it's life. Why would a fully grown adult need the same amount of protein as a baby who is doubling its weight every few months? We don't. We need less. The average American meat-eater, who's eating meat and dairy products with every meal, might be getting 35-50 percent of his calories from protein! Maybe more. (Plus, a ton of saturated fat.) It's absurd. This is why we are obese. This is why we are dying of heart disease. Again, human breast milk is LESS than 2 percent protein---for the fastest growth spurt of our entire lives. Human adults should eat fruit and veg. That is our natural food. Fruit and veg is what primates eat. (If you want to add very small amounts of animal protein from termites and mice, it's probably okay. Personally, I don't think we need that.)

 

 

thoughts?


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 I think it is ridiculous

 I think it is ridiculous to claim there is a such thing as an "ideal" diet among humans. Not all humans share the same dietary needs. Even the  same human is going to have varying dietary needs at different points in their lives. To compare our dietary needs to other primates is even more ridiculous, we are quite different from them in a number of ways.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: I

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I think it is ridiculous to claim there is a such thing as an "ideal" diet among humans. Not all humans share the same dietary needs. Even the  same human is going to have varying dietary needs at different points in their lives. To compare our dietary needs to other primates is even more ridiculous, we are quite different from them in a number of ways.

I disagree.

Humans are animals and as such we, like other animals, have a "range" of ideal diet.

We have very little genetic variance when compared to other species.

Epidemological studies show clearly that when genetically different populations migrate and start eating the same food as the local population they aquire the same risks as the indegenous population; independently of their genetic background.

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I agree with Beyond. As

I agree with Beyond. As humans our diet varies greatly for region, society and health reasons. We as humans eat a variety of different things at different times. Being pure vegan or vegetarian works for some people and not for others, but I'll say that the high level of consumption of meat in the US society isn't needed and is driven by profit and politics.

It wasn't until recently that I found out I had celiac disease which is the main factor in my overweight. Since changing my diet I've seen dramatic weight loss, less pain, less swelling. I will never eat grains again. It's that much of a dramatic difference for me. There are a variety of factors I'm oblivious to which could have allowed me to get by with eating gluten earlier but now prevent me from having the same diet now. It is like eating poison to me. If I eat it my body goes to shit for four or five days.

My diet consists of roughly 4lbs of dark cocoa, 10lbs of seeds and nuts, less than 10lbs of meats (chicken, beef and pork) but as much as 25lbs of fish each month. I eat twice as much in fruits and veggies with leafy greens being the highest amount compared to stuff like carrots or potatoes. Which by the way, I prefer yams or yuca over potatoes. I use seed based "breads" and bean based "pastas" to get by eating Italian or sandwich related items.

I also don't use any salts in any thing when I cook, but do so when I bake. I find the consumption of salt similar to the consumption of sugars or meats; driven by politics and profit.

(edit) I also drink 95% water with some juices mixed in during the day. I didn't drink any water when I was younger but after joining the USMC I changed my mind.

My diet works for me but I doubt it would work for many others. Us consumers get trapped by advertisements in to eating processed foods because it is convenient and cheap.

On a closing note, I believe that eating meat for our earlier ancestors was an issue of energy not protein. I believe, per ounce, meats and fats provide more energy which contributed to brain development.

 


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Teralek wrote:Beyond Saving

Teralek wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I think it is ridiculous to claim there is a such thing as an "ideal" diet among humans. Not all humans share the same dietary needs. Even the  same human is going to have varying dietary needs at different points in their lives. To compare our dietary needs to other primates is even more ridiculous, we are quite different from them in a number of ways.

I disagree.

Humans are animals and as such we, like other animals, have a "range" of ideal diet.

We have very little genetic variance when compared to other species.

Epidemological studies show clearly that when genetically different populations migrate and start eating the same food as the local population they aquire the same risks as the indegenous population; independently of their genetic background.

I see you are marked as a theist but you claim humans are animals? Just curious.

I believe you completely missed Beyond's point about an "ideal diet".

 


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There's no logic comparing

There's no logic comparing chimps and gorillas to homo sapiens. So what if we're all primates? We aren't even in the same genus, let alone the same species. If you want to use other primates, then look at the Tarsier: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarsier. A purely carnivorous primate. By your logic, I can use the Tarsier to say we should all eat meat and nothing but meat.

The fact is that humans are omnivores. We eat meat and we eat plants. Doing without either requires significant adjustment to diet, and has NEVER been proven a healthy regimen, except in very few cases where an individual has a problem with consuming certain products.

Vegetarians are worse than theists. Someone should eat them all.

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 I think I might not have

 I think I might not have articulated my point as well as I could have. I wasn't necessarily speaking about wide genetic differences, but simply differences among a genetically similar population can have completely different ideal diets. I know some people like Digital that have found a reduced gluten or gluten free diet makes a noticable difference in their lives. I tried it, and didn't notice a difference at all. Other people have sensitivities to nuts, but I feel best when I have a diet with a rather large amount of nuts. I have a tendency to have low iron levels, for some reason, my liver is really great at processing iron despite me being a fairly heavy drinker and a consumer of red meat.

Although, within myself I have noticed a significant difference in what diet makes me feel best based on the season. When hunting season comes around and I am getting significant amounts of exercise, I crave meat and carbs, and if I don't get it I feel like shit and lose stamina. At times when I am more passive and working sitting on my ass in meetings all day long like now, I feel better if I choose to eat lighter meals with a small portion of meat or even no meat. While someone like Michael Phelps can put whatever shit he wants in his body because he requires 12,000 calories a day and whatever he eats is being burned. 

My point is that your ideal diet is really more reliant on your current physical activity level and how your individual body handles different types of foods than genetics. The ideal diet for an athlete isn't going to be the same as the ideal diet for someone who sits in a cubicle all day. Which is why I laugh when idiots chug protein shakes thinking they will lose weight and have six pack abs like the models on tv but don't do the workouts necessary to burn the massive amounts of calories in those shakes that readily convert to innertubes. If you live a low energy lifestyle, being vegan is probably more healthy, but if you are burning calories with an active lifestyle, the condensed energy in animal flesh is going to be a far more efficient way to refuel. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:My point

Beyond Saving wrote:

My point is that your ideal diet is really more reliant on your current physical activity level and how your individual body handles different types of foods than genetics. The ideal diet for an athlete isn't going to be the same as the ideal diet for someone who sits in a cubicle all day. Which is why I laugh when idiots chug protein shakes thinking they will lose weight and have six pack abs like the models on tv but don't do the workouts necessary to burn the massive amounts of calories in those shakes that readily convert to innertubes. If you live a low energy lifestyle, being vegan is probably more healthy, but if you are burning calories with an active lifestyle, the condensed energy in animal flesh is going to be a far more efficient way to refuel. 

What he said..


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digitalbeachbum wrote: I see

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I see you are marked as a theist but you claim humans are animals? Just curious.
I believe you completely missed Beyond's point about an "ideal diet".

You don't remember me?
You should know that there are a few of us "unorthodox" theists, who occasionally look at the badge and wonder why we have theist in our badge when we cannot even quite find a definition of "God". I'm a believer from reason and odds, not faith.

About the post. Sure different lifestyles need different energy intakes and we CAN have different diets. But when I see "ideal" diet I'm thinking in a pattern which is more healthy regardless of lifestyle. Yes regardless of lifestyle. Because I will say whoever believes that if you are an athlete you need to eat meat, believes in mythology. Let's all be aware that Carl Lewis was a vegetarian...

I like epidemiological studies. Not by themselves, because there are too many variables to account for. But in group they start to show patterns and wash out unaccounted variables, even if we don't understand the bio mechanisms that explain the phenomenon.
The group of people with the longest lifespan in the world are Okinawa people in Japan. Their diet consists mainly of seafood and vegetables, with meat just on special occasions. Longevity of a population is for me the best indicator of an healthy diet / lifestyle.

Honestly the book "The China Study" convinced me that veganism is an healthy alternative regardless of lifestyle. Although it not turned me into one. I feel the evidence from this book that seafood is very weak.

For example, the evidence that cholesterol is bad for you is very strong... and cholesterol only exists in animal products.

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"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Actually, cholesterol is so

Actually, cholesterol is so necessary for us to live that our bodies make it . No cholesterol = complete and total cell death.
You can have too much of it, and if you have too much for too long it can cause health problems. But it's not like it'll be a problem overnight. Like drinking and smoking, it takes years before any real problems surface.
But you don't have to consume any cholesterol at all to have a cholesterol problem. In fact, there are studies done by people who wanted to prove consumption of cholesterol was bad for you, who after years of attempts were forced to conclude that consumption of cholesterol has absolutely no impact on cholesterol levels in the bloodstream. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest consumption of cholesterol is bad for you. Zip, zero, zilch.

Like everything else in the vegetarians argument, they get cholesterol completely wrong.

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in the documentary fathead

in the documentary fathead they present a compelling argument along the lines that high cholesterol is actually an indicator of heart problems rather than a cause.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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Vastet wrote:Actually,

Vastet wrote:
Actually, cholesterol is so necessary for us to live that our bodies make it . No cholesterol = complete and total cell death. You can have too much of it, and if you have too much for too long it can cause health problems. But it's not like it'll be a problem overnight. Like drinking and smoking, it takes years before any real problems surface. But you don't have to consume any cholesterol at all to have a cholesterol problem. In fact, there are studies done by people who wanted to prove consumption of cholesterol was bad for you, who after years of attempts were forced to conclude that consumption of cholesterol has absolutely no impact on cholesterol levels in the bloodstream. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest consumption of cholesterol is bad for you. Zip, zero, zilch. Like everything else in the vegetarians argument, they get cholesterol completely wrong.

No no no no...You started your post very well! Is true we make cholesterol in our bodies and we need it for our survival. BUT If we take more from food is too much because we already make it. Consuming food with cholesterol will increase fat content of your blood - This is proven times over and over... I can point you to the links but you should do that work because there are tons of them.

It's completely wrong to say the consumption of cholesterol is not bad for you when countless studies shown the opposite.

I'm not a vegetarian because I like seafood and the link between seafood and health problems is weak, unlike red meat. And also like you said you are not going to have an heart attack because you eat meat once or have cancer because you smoked once. So I don't make a lot of fuss about it. Thus I'm not a vegetarian.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/fats-full-story/

Someone else here made a very good argument towards vegetarianism on an ethical basis though... but that's not the point of this thread.

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"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Ownerest wrote: Chimps and

Ownerest wrote:

 

Chimps and bonobos are our closest relatives. They get over 96% of their calories from plants. About 2% from insects and 2% from meat. We would be SO much healthier if we kept our meat consumption as low as that.

 

      Chimps, bonobos, grey mouse lemurs, etc have been observed to attack and consume other primates.   Should I follow their example and practice cannibalism ?  

 

    ( For health reasons I promise to include human flesh as only a small part of my diet. )

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Teralek wrote:Vastet

Teralek wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Actually, cholesterol is so necessary for us to live that our bodies make it . No cholesterol = complete and total cell death. You can have too much of it, and if you have too much for too long it can cause health problems. But it's not like it'll be a problem overnight. Like drinking and smoking, it takes years before any real problems surface. But you don't have to consume any cholesterol at all to have a cholesterol problem. In fact, there are studies done by people who wanted to prove consumption of cholesterol was bad for you, who after years of attempts were forced to conclude that consumption of cholesterol has absolutely no impact on cholesterol levels in the bloodstream. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest consumption of cholesterol is bad for you. Zip, zero, zilch. Like everything else in the vegetarians argument, they get cholesterol completely wrong.

No no no no...You started your post very well! Is true we make cholesterol in our bodies and we need it for our survival. BUT If we take more from food is too much because we already make it. Consuming food with cholesterol will increase fat content of your blood - This is proven times over and over... I can point you to the links but you should do that work because there are tons of them.

It's completely wrong to say the consumption of cholesterol is not bad for you when countless studies shown the opposite.

I'm not a vegetarian because I like seafood and the link between seafood and health problems is weak, unlike red meat. And also like you said you are not going to have an heart attack because you eat meat once or have cancer because you smoked once. So I don't make a lot of fuss about it. Thus I'm not a vegetarian.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/fats-full-story/

Someone else here made a very good argument towards vegetarianism on an ethical basis though... but that's not the point of this thread.

You've bought into vegan lies. Consumption of cholesterol does absolutely nothing to you. NOTHING.

http://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledge/we-have-got-cholesterol-completely-wrong/

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 Growing up in a third

 Growing up in a third world country, I have heard of vegetarians, but never actually met one.  Vegetarians and the vegan zealots are an aberration allowed by modern first world society.  Humans as animals have only recently had the options to selectively choose their diets consistently.  I'm sure there were some humans that avoided eating meat early on, but the process of evolution has long weeded them out.  It's survival of the best adapted, not survival of the nicest to other species that have eyes and cute faces... 

 

We are clearly opportunistic eaters, and to argue that we should follow a certain diet because we have the resources would lead to us eating chemically shaped meatballs that properly balance your intake of protein and carbohydrates.   Lead a balanced lifestyle and don’t overeat.  Eating too much “healthy” food is worst than eating a low calorie meal at McDonald’s.  

 

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Ktulu wrote: Growing up in

Ktulu wrote:

 Growing up in a third world country, I have heard of vegetarians, but never actually met one.  Vegetarians and the vegan zealots are an aberration allowed by modern first world society.  Humans as animals have only recently had the options to selectively choose their diets consistently.  I'm sure there were some humans that avoided eating meat early on, but the process of evolution has long weeded them out.  It's survival of the best adapted, not survival of the nicest to other species that have eyes and cute faces... 

 We are clearly opportunistic eaters, and to argue that we should follow a certain diet because we have the resources would lead to us eating chemically shaped meatballs that properly balance your intake of protein and carbohydrates.   Lead a balanced lifestyle and don’t overeat.  Eating too much “healthy” food is worst than eating a low calorie meal at McDonald’s. 

 

Well said.


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Vastet wrote:Teralek

Vastet wrote:
Teralek wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Actually, cholesterol is so necessary for us to live that our bodies make it . No cholesterol = complete and total cell death. You can have too much of it, and if you have too much for too long it can cause health problems. But it's not like it'll be a problem overnight. Like drinking and smoking, it takes years before any real problems surface. But you don't have to consume any cholesterol at all to have a cholesterol problem. In fact, there are studies done by people who wanted to prove consumption of cholesterol was bad for you, who after years of attempts were forced to conclude that consumption of cholesterol has absolutely no impact on cholesterol levels in the bloodstream. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest consumption of cholesterol is bad for you. Zip, zero, zilch. Like everything else in the vegetarians argument, they get cholesterol completely wrong.

No no no no...You started your post very well! Is true we make cholesterol in our bodies and we need it for our survival. BUT If we take more from food is too much because we already make it. Consuming food with cholesterol will increase fat content of your blood - This is proven times over and over... I can point you to the links but you should do that work because there are tons of them.

It's completely wrong to say the consumption of cholesterol is not bad for you when countless studies shown the opposite.

I'm not a vegetarian because I like seafood and the link between seafood and health problems is weak, unlike red meat. And also like you said you are not going to have an heart attack because you eat meat once or have cancer because you smoked once. So I don't make a lot of fuss about it. Thus I'm not a vegetarian.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/fats-full-story/

Someone else here made a very good argument towards vegetarianism on an ethical basis though... but that's not the point of this thread.

You've bought into vegan lies. Consumption of cholesterol does absolutely nothing to you. NOTHING. http://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledge/we-have-got-cholesterol-completely-wrong/

LOL! I give you Harvard and you give me Zoe Harcombe!!!!! That really is a refutation of my post Vastet!! I expected more from you!! LOL

http://www.cancer-prevention.org/2010/11/is-zoe-harcombe%E2%80%99s-advice-based-on-solid-scientific-evidence/

Ktulu wrote:
Growing up in a third world country, I have heard of vegetarians, but never actually met one.  Vegetarians and the vegan zealots are an aberration allowed by modern first world society.  Humans as animals have only recently had the options to selectively choose their diets consistently.  I'm sure there were some humans that avoided eating meat early on, but the process of evolution has long weeded them out.  It's survival of the best adapted, not survival of the nicest to other species that have eyes and cute faces... 

 

We are clearly opportunistic eaters, and to argue that we should follow a certain diet because we have the resources would lead to us eating chemically shaped meatballs that properly balance your intake of protein and carbohydrates.   Lead a balanced lifestyle and don’t overeat.  Eating too much “healthy” food is worst than eating a low calorie meal at McDonald’s. 
 You are completely right except in your very last sentence. Although if that was suppose to be a refutation of my post it was merelly a strawman.

 

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"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Your own link even agrees

Your own link even agrees with me, as it happens. To bad you don't know how to read.

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Ktulu wrote:Vegetarians and

Ktulu wrote:
Vegetarians and the vegan zealots are an aberration allowed by modern first world society.



that's not entirely true. india has been overwhelmingly vegetarian for millennia, for cultural, practical, and of course religious reasons. india even today does not have widespread refrigeration, so obviously that puts a damper on meat-eating. most indians are genuinely repulsed by the idea of eating meat: they think it looks and smells disgusting, analogous to how westerners feel about eating insects or dogs. they get most of their protein from pulses. as for "vegan zealots," you can call devout jains just that. hindus have been actively proselytizing vegetarianism since the late 19th century and the so-called "hindu renaissance," when vegetarianism was given much more religious weight than it had previously held. many devout hindus won't even eat garlic or onion, as they believe it enflames the senses. they cook with asafoetida instead.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Ktulu

iwbiek wrote:
Ktulu wrote:
Vegetarians and the vegan zealots are an aberration allowed by modern first world society.

that's not entirely true. india has been overwhelmingly vegetarian for millennia, for cultural, practical, and of course religious reasons. india even today does not have widespread refrigeration, so obviously that puts a damper on meat-eating. most indians are genuinely repulsed by the idea of eating meat: they think it looks and smells disgusting, analogous to how westerners feel about eating insects or dogs. they get most of their protein from pulses. as for "vegan zealots," you can call devout jains just that. hindus have been actively proselytizing vegetarianism since the late 19th century and the so-called "hindu renaissance," when vegetarianism was given much more religious weight than it had previously held. many devout hindus won't even eat garlic or onion, as they believe it enflames the senses. they cook with asafoetida instead.

While I agree that India is a vegetarian country as compared to the World, India has never been overwhelmingly been vegetarian. Current stats show about 1/3 of the country is vegetarian and that is broken down in to sub-categories. Many of those who eat meat do it irregularly because of a lack of income. As for asafoetida, it is used specifically by a religious caste and is not widespread.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:iwbiek

digitalbeachbum wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
Ktulu wrote:
Vegetarians and the vegan zealots are an aberration allowed by modern first world society.

that's not entirely true. india has been overwhelmingly vegetarian for millennia, for cultural, practical, and of course religious reasons. india even today does not have widespread refrigeration, so obviously that puts a damper on meat-eating. most indians are genuinely repulsed by the idea of eating meat: they think it looks and smells disgusting, analogous to how westerners feel about eating insects or dogs. they get most of their protein from pulses. as for "vegan zealots," you can call devout jains just that. hindus have been actively proselytizing vegetarianism since the late 19th century and the so-called "hindu renaissance," when vegetarianism was given much more religious weight than it had previously held. many devout hindus won't even eat garlic or onion, as they believe it enflames the senses. they cook with asafoetida instead.

While I agree that India is a vegetarian country as compared to the World, India has never been overwhelmingly been vegetarian. Current stats show about 1/3 of the country is vegetarian and that is broken down in to sub-categories. Many of those who eat meat do it irregularly because of a lack of income. As for asafoetida, it is used specifically by a religious caste and is not widespread.


i said the devout use asafoetida, but it's not specific to any religious tradition. i'm assuming by "caste" you mean "sect"? which one exactly? but i know it's a widespread belief among indians that garlic, leeks, and onions arouse the passions and thus they are strictly avoided by almost all brahmacaris and sannyasins, regardless of their order. even the hare krishnas in the west inherited this belief from bhaktivedanta. as for vegetarianism, i don't know where you got your stats, but my authorities on vegetarianism and asafoetida are prof. agehananda bharati's multiple anthropological observations of mid-20th century indian culture across the subcontinent in his various books, e.g., the ochre robe and hindu views and ways, as well as a very good american friend of mine who's been a missionary in west bengal for about six years now. as for me, hopefully i'll get over to the country myself in the course of my phd. studies and get a clearer picture.


hindus are overwhelmingly vegetarian, and india is still overwhelmingly hindu. it's true that christians and muslims usually see no problem eating meat, but according to bharati a hindu convert to islam will usually remain vegetarian out of habit.


even if meat-eating is on the rise in the new millennium, it doesn't change the fact that india has historically been overwhelmingly vegetarian, and it signifies india's steady rise toward being a developed country, not its third-world status, which is relevant to the point i was making.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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Vastet wrote:Your own link

Vastet wrote:
Your own link even agrees with me, as it happens. To bad you don't know how to read.

quotes from Harvard:

"In general, the lower your LDL and the higher your HDL, the better your chances of preventing heart disease and other chronic conditions. "

"The types of fat in the diet determine to a large extent the amount of total, HDL, and LDL cholesterol in the bloodstream."

"The types and amount of carbohydrate in the diet also play a role. Cholesterol in food matters, too, but not nearly as much."

About the Atkins diet and the recent polemic about fats in diet pushed by people who want to sell books they say the following:

"some of the media and blog coverage of these studies would have you believe that scientists had given a green light to eating bacon, butter, and cheese. But that’s an oversimplified and erroneous interpretation. Read the study and subsequent studies more closely, and the message is more nuanced: Cutting back on saturated fat can be good for health if people replace saturated fat with good fats, especially, polyunsaturated fats(16,25)  Eating good fats in place of saturated fat lowers the “bad” LDL cholesterol, and it improves the ratio of total cholesterol to “good” HDL cholesterol, lowering the risk of heart disease. Eating good fats in place of saturated fat can also help prevent insulin resistance, a precursor to diabetes. "

"Cutting back on saturated fat will likely have no benefit, however, if people replace saturated fat with refined carbohydrates—white bread, white rice, mashed potatoes, sugary drinks, and the like. Eating refined carbs in place of saturated fat does lower “bad” LDL cholesterol—but it also lowers the “good” HDL cholesterol and increases triglycerides. The net effect is as bad for the heart as eating too much saturated fat"

"As a general rule, it’s a good idea to keep your intake of saturated fats as low as possible. "

"A body of scientific studies shows only a weak relationship between the amount of cholesterol a person consumes and his or her blood cholesterol levels (34) (weak but still important for heart disease)."

This is at odds with what you said...

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Cooking

 A rather important aspect of the development of the human diet which I haven't seen mentioned here so far is the effect of cooking, once we started using fire. Cooking many foods, both meat and plant, makes their nutients more available to us. It even allows us to use foods which we could not otherwise consume. This has allowed us to survive while spending much less time hunting and gathering and eating than our primate relatives such as chimps and gorillas, so greatly assisting our social and cultural development relative to our cousin species.

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BobSpence wrote: A rather

BobSpence wrote:

 A rather important aspect of the development of the human diet which I haven't seen mentioned here so far is the effect of cooking, once we started using fire. Cooking many foods, both meat and plant, makes their nutients more available to us. It even allows us to use foods which we could not otherwise consume. This has allowed us to survive while spending much less time hunting and gathering and eating than our primate relatives such as chimps and gorillas, so greatly assisting our social and cultural development relative to our cousin species.

You are right. Cooking changed every thing. Also one item I thought about mentioning was the drying of food which enabled food to have a longer shelf life. It is interesting that drying of foods developed independently in many different societies at different times too.


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iwbiek wrote:i'm assuming by

iwbiek wrote:
i'm assuming by "caste" you mean "sect"? which one exactly?

The Brahmins

I was told by a friend who is from India that he and his family do not follow vegetarianism at all, though he had a sister who was a quasi one. I was shocked because he is "hindu". I think this might be a case of people saying "I'm Roman Catholic" but they don't follow the dogma or go to church. Like the ones who only show up for xmas mass.

I agree that devoted hindu would be vegetarian just like a devoted muslim woman might be a virgin at marriage. The big question would be how many people in India are devoted hindu? If this number is going down then is the hindu religion morphing? losing followers?

I totally agree about the garlic and onions. I've heard this tradition from others and I believe you can find the same idea in the Meditarian region.

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:iwbiek

digitalbeachbum wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
i'm assuming by "caste" you mean "sect"? which one exactly?

The Brahmins

I was told by a friend who is from India that he and his family do not follow vegetarianism at all, though he had a sister who was a quasi one. I was shocked because he is "hindu". I think this might be a case of people saying "I'm Roman Catholic" but they don't follow the dogma or go to church. Like the ones who only show up for xmas mass.

I agree that devoted hindu would be vegetarian just like a devoted muslim woman might be a virgin at marriage. The big question would be how many people in India are devoted hindu? If this number is going down then is the hindu religion morphing? losing followers?

I totally agree about the garlic and onions. I've heard this tradition from others and I believe you can find the same idea in the Meditarian region.

 




i think it's about the generation gap. culture and technology are changing. vegetarianism was always as much about circumstances as about religion. refridgeration, while far from being universal, is on the rise in india, and young people are being exposed to more cosmopolitan values (mcdonald's, etc.).


you mention your friend is brahmin. it's well known that the vast majority of indians who go abroad are brahmins. most indian religion scholars are brahmins. most of the world outside india sees india through a brahmin lens. however, most of india is still rural and desperately primitive. among indians of this sort (by far the majority), just out of cost and lack of technology alone, vegetarianism is the rule.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
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Teralek wrote:blah blah

Teralek wrote:
blah blah blah

More quotes from Harvard:

"However, as a nation, following a low-fat diet hasn’t helped us control weight or become healthier."

"Detailed research shows that the total amount of fat in the diet isn’t really linked with weight or disease."

"What about cholesterol in food? For most people, the mix of fats in the diet influences cholesterol in the bloodstream far more than cholesterol in food does."

"Triglycerides make up most of the fat that you eat and that travels through the bloodstream. As the body’s main vehicle for transporting fats to cells, triglycerides are important for good health. But as is the case for so many things, an excess of triglycerides can be unhealthy."

"More recently, several studies seemed to suggest that eating diets high in saturated fat did not raise the risk of heart disease—a finding that ran counter to decades of dietary advice."

"One highly-publicized report analyzed the findings of 21 studies that followed 350,000 people for up to 23 years. Investigators looked at the relationship between saturated fat intake and coronary heart disease (CHD), stroke, and cardiovascular disease (CVD). Their controversial conclusion: “There is insufficient evidence from prospective epidemiologic studies to conclude that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD.”"

"As it turns out, most people make more cholesterol than they absorb from their food. A body of scientific studies shows only a weak relationship between the amount of cholesterol a person consumes and his or her blood cholesterol levels"

"A big nail in the coffin came from the Women’s Health Initiative Dietary Modification Trial, published in the February 8, 2006, Journal of the American Medical Association. (9) This eight-year trial, which included almost 49,000 women, found virtually identical rates of heart attack, stroke, and other forms of cardiovascular disease in women who followed a low-fat diet and in those women who didn’t. What’s more, women on the low-fat diet didn’t lose—or gain—any more weight than women who followed their usual diets. "

Just the tip of the iceberg of all the information you casually ignore in your foolish vegan bias. If you actually read the entire article and all the studies it links to, you find that there's nothing at all wrong with eating beef or cheese or any of the staples of the western diet. The only problems that arise come when eating too much of it, which is true for ANYTHING you can eat.

Vegan morons: A constant source of blatant lies.

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If 3-D printed meat becomes

If 3-D printed meat becomes a viable (no pun intended) alternative, would there be any objections?  We could then have our carnivorous cravings satisfied, without the pangs of conscience wrought from animal suffering.

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Vastet wrote:Teralek

Vastet wrote:
Teralek wrote:
blah blah blah
More quotes from Harvard: "However, as a nation, following a low-fat diet hasn’t helped us control weight or become healthier." "Detailed research shows that the total amount of fat in the diet isn’t really linked with weight or disease." "What about cholesterol in food? For most people, the mix of fats in the diet influences cholesterol in the bloodstream far more than cholesterol in food does." "Triglycerides make up most of the fat that you eat and that travels through the bloodstream. As the body’s main vehicle for transporting fats to cells, triglycerides are important for good health. But as is the case for so many things, an excess of triglycerides can be unhealthy." "More recently, several studies seemed to suggest that eating diets high in saturated fat did not raise the risk of heart disease—a finding that ran counter to decades of dietary advice." "One highly-publicized report analyzed the findings of 21 studies that followed 350,000 people for up to 23 years. Investigators looked at the relationship between saturated fat intake and coronary heart disease (CHD), stroke, and cardiovascular disease (CVD). Their controversial conclusion: “There is insufficient evidence from prospective epidemiologic studies to conclude you actually read the entire article and all the studies it links to, you find that there's nothing at all wrong with eating beef or cheese or any of the staples of the western diet. The only problems that arise come when eating too much of it, which is true for ANYTHING you can eat. Vegan morons: A constant source of blatant lies.

I remember a while back reading an article that sugar is the cause of heart problems, so I went to google and started to type "sugar cause heart problems..."

Before I finished I got four options "sugar causes heart problems not fat" and "sugar cause heart attacks not fat"... etc.

The word I got was that sugar gets under the plates of the cells? then causes the cells to raise up, which then catches fat. The fat then catches other fats which then causes the blockage. Research is now trying not to unclog the fat but to get rid of the sugar which is the source of the problem.

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:
I remember a while back reading an article that sugar is the cause of heart problems, so I went to google and started to type "sugar cause heart problems..."

Before I finished I got four options "sugar causes heart problems not fat" and "sugar cause heart attacks not fat"... etc.

The word I got was that sugar gets under the plates of the cells? then causes the cells to raise up, which then catches fat. The fat then catches other fats which then causes the blockage. Research is now trying not to unclog the fat but to get rid of the sugar which is the source of the problem.

Interesting. As I suffer from hypoglycemia that has potentially significant ramifications for me.

The thing that pisses me off the most about vegans is that they scream and yell as if their position was backed by science, despite the fact that the science of diet is about as well known as the science of psychiatry. Which isn't much. Sure, we've figured out a few things. But compared to hard science like chemistry or physics we don't know shit. Even gravity is better understood, and we still haven't come up with an equation that fully explains it. We don't even have equations for diet at all, yet these idiots prance about slinging blatant lies and what-if's just like your typical evangelist.

Vegans, feminazi's, masculinazi's (less talked about but they exist), theists, conspiracy nutjobs.... they are all the same. They've just latched onto different irrational ideas. Sometimes more than one. What I wouldn't give to be able to grant all of them the ability to think critically.

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zarathustra wrote:If 3-D

zarathustra wrote:

If 3-D printed meat becomes a viable (no pun intended) alternative, would there be any objections?  We could then have our carnivorous cravings satisfied, without the pangs of conscience wrought from animal suffering.

Long as it tastes good. I think 3d printers will eventually replace 95%+ of all kitchen appliances. It'll be awhile, but why should we depend on the unpredictability of farming animals and crops when we don't have to? Should our species survive another couple hundred years, everyone will forget farming was ever a thing.

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Slightly getting off topic,

Slightly getting off topic, but just for the record, I'm not a vegan/vegetarian though the person I spoke to who had these discussions/arguments could have been. He basically said that the idea of "man eating meat to evolve" was a lie and was a claim (not even a theory). He said no one knows what made man's brains grow to their size since we were a frugivore specie. It could've been the frugivore diet or something else, but he pertained it certainly wasn't meat consumption.

 

IT was to my original understanding man's consumption of meat was our reason for growing larger brains, either from consumption of animal fat/high proteins of whatever larger animals we were spearing and cooking with fire.

 

 


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Vastet wrote:zarathustra

Vastet wrote:
zarathustra wrote:

If 3-D printed meat becomes a viable (no pun intended) alternative, would there be any objections?  We could then have our carnivorous cravings satisfied, without the pangs of conscience wrought from animal suffering.

Long as it tastes good. I think 3d printers will eventually replace 95%+ of all kitchen appliances. It'll be awhile, but why should we depend on the unpredictability of farming animals and crops when we don't have to? Should our species survive another couple hundred years, everyone will forget farming was ever a thing.

I've been paying a lot of attention to 3d printing because I find it extremely fascinating both from the medical perspective of being able to print human organs, which very well might prolong my life, and from the foodie perspective of the potentials. It will be interesting to see how 3d printed food is accepted at high end restaurants. Already, some really high end restaurants have started using 3d printers to make appetizers and confections, but they are using materials that are naturally soft and moldable, just using 3d printing to make the shape of the food more aesthetic and intricate. However, I can see many benefits if you could successfully mimic the chemical composition of meat at a semi-reasonable price. One of the largest challenges with meat are inconsistency in shape and marbling.

With a 3d printer, you could theoretically print a piece of meat that is ideally shaped for the cooking method with the ideal amount of marbling every single time. People readily pay obscene prices for real Kobe beef simply because of its superior marbling, and I've often wondered if they would be willing to pay the same for a printed piece of meat or if the stigma of it not being real will keep them away from it. From a culinary viewpoint, the possibilities for high end cuisine are endless- you could have a piece of steak where the marinade is literally printed directly into it and perfect dispersed, or a chicken breast marbled with duck fat. I really think acceptance of 3d printed food at the high end will have the largest effect on how long it will be before regular people have a 3d printer in their kitchen. Right now, it is cheaper to buy a steak than try to create one, but if the technology is embraced among the wealthy, mass production will greatly decrease the price. 

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Vastet wrote:zarathustra

Vastet wrote:
zarathustra wrote:

If 3-D printed meat becomes a viable (no pun intended) alternative, would there be any objections?  We could then have our carnivorous cravings satisfied, without the pangs of conscience wrought from animal suffering.

Long as it tastes good. I think 3d printers will eventually replace 95%+ of all kitchen appliances. It'll be awhile, but why should we depend on the unpredictability of farming animals and crops when we don't have to? Should our species survive another couple hundred years, everyone will forget farming was ever a thing.

When I first heard about 3D printers doing foods I imagined being able to make cupcakes or even lasagna. I agree that as long as it tastes good I won't have a problem with it but you will have several generations of humans who will never conform to 3D food printers.


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@ Beyond I hate to say it

@ Beyond

I hate to say it but when I first heard of them I wasn't remotely impressed. I don't remember exactly what changed my mind, but it changed in a heartbeat. I think it was a perpetual movement machine that was incredibly fragile and intricate in appearance. When I read the part about it being printed out my mouth dropped open. And then there was talk of organs and guns and other things and I've been fully with it since. If I had money to invest, I'd invest it ALL in this technology (though not all in one company).
Even if there are areas that it gets held up for decades, it has more potential than anything invented or designed since the internet. Perhaps even since the telephone. I can't think of a single industry that would be unable to utilise the technology, though of course it'll need to get cheaper. But it's already doing that. You czn actually go out and buy one today for your home. It's still pretty expensive and fairly limited, but considering how young the technology is I think it's pretty amazing how far it has already come.

@ Digital

Yeah there's always going to be holdouts for any new technology, no matter what it is. Someone will say it causes cancer and autism and it'll be all fucked up for awhile. I'm looking forward to it though. It's like the replicator technology in Star Trek in many ways. Which means all we need is warp drive and all Star Trek technology will be obsolete. lol.

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Vastet wrote: blah blah

Vastet wrote:
blah blah blah

 "What about cholesterol in food? For most people, the mix of fats in the diet influences cholesterol in the bloodstream far more than cholesterol in food does." 

blah blah blah

You have conveniently cherry picked quotes that on the surface seem to agree you can eat whatever meat you want and it's not bad for you. And ignored the interpretation of the studies and their critique of the Atkins diet which I quoted. Just the tip of the iceberg of the huge ammount of evidence that red meat is bad for you. If you actually read the entire article and the studies linked to it you would see that consumption of red meat is bad for you as it is written there in black and white. CVD is only the begining. They clearly say: A good diet is one where you avoid diaries and red meat and eat plenty of whole grains, fruits and vegetables. By percentage this is pretty much vegan depending on your definition of vegan.

How much is too much meat is the real issue here.

Meat 3 times a week is already too much. Most of us eat it twice a day everyday! Our ancestors probably only had meat once a month if they were lucky.

Meat eater morons: a constant source of blantant lies.

 

About the 3D printing I think it's the most overrated shit since the invention of dental floss. A print is a mold, not a real object. You can print a cherry made of jam but not a real cherry. Print=/=replicator. you need nanotechology for that... that's the real deal... but nanotechology seems like cold fusion...

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I was driving around today

I was driving around today and listening to NPR. They had the following subject on about "meat". I thought it fitting to our discussion.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2014-07-01/environmental-outlook-meat-consumption-and-its-effects-planet


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Teralek wrote:ou have

Teralek wrote:
ou have conveniently cherry picked quotes

Says the guy who's entire argument is cherry picked.

Teralek wrote:
seem to agree you can eat whatever meat you want and it's not bad for you.

And now you enter the realm of blatant lies. Not once have I said you can eat as much meat as you liked without it being bad for you. I explicitly stated that NO FOOD is safe to consume in excess.

You're a liar and a fool who doesn't know shit about diet. I win, you lose.

I'm not even going to read the rest of your idiocy since you've completely discredited yourself. Just like every other vegan liar and fool always does.

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Vastet wrote: You're a liar

Vastet wrote:
You're a liar and a fool who doesn't know shit about diet. I win, you lose. I'm not even going to read the rest of your idiocy since you've completely discredited yourself. Just like every other vegan liar and fool always does.

No no. I win you loose. When you start making personal attacks instead of focusing on the discussion. I'm not a vegan, if I am or not is irrrelevant. You are the ignorant here. In nowhere you read that eating meat is beneficial because there is no proof of that. You don't need meat. Again if you replace saturated fats with unsaturated ones and whole grain carbohydrates the benefits are unquestionable.

What is not mentioned in this discussion and would be helpfull is how much is too much meat.

Because this argument that "we eat too much meat" is valid for anything, thus meaningless. Cyanide is a poison and we eat it in almonds but in minute quantities making it irrelevant.

So yes we agree, we eat too much meat. We need to eat just enough to make it irrelevant in our whole nutrition, and this is where we disagree. "too much" has different meaning for us.

Saying that we eat too much rice and saying we eat too much meat are 2 completely different things when it comes to epidemiology. For the simple fact that one can hardly have too much rice, like one can hardly have too much water. Not the same with meat.

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"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Teralek wrote:For the simple

Teralek wrote:
For the simple fact that one can hardly have too much rice....

 

   Yes, you can actually eat too much rice... "Eating too much rice may adversely affect glucose metabolism and insulin production in your body."

  http://www.livestrong.com/article/480056-what-happens-if-you-eat-too-much-cooked-rice/

 

 

  Unless you reject the process of evolution among homo sapiens then one could easily forsee this pervasive meat eating behavior among humanity eventually causing an adaptation of our dietary requirements to one that is more and more meat based.  Why would that be a surprise ?  Evolution has already unlocked that genetic code by producing countless generations of warm-blooded animals whose nutritional needs are met exclusively through meat consumption. 

  We could eventually end up as true nature-based omnivores ( like Grizzly bears ) where meat consumption goes beyond mere preference and becomes an actual nutritional requirement for good health.

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 You can also die from

 You can also die from consuming too much water. It is called hyponatremia and people die from it on occasion, usually atheletes or people abusing ecstasy and trying to rehydrate quickly. Personally, I don't give a shit if meat is healthy or not. I enjoy it, and will gladly lose a few years off the end of my life if that is the price of enjoying good steak. I don't see a rational reason to worry about optimizing your diet. Most things that will kill you cannot be prevented with diet.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Teralek is bring up a point not make an absolutist statement

>> Teralek is bring up a point not make an absolutist statement

 . .  Forum/34602#comment-411474

Teralek wrote:

Vastet wrote:
You're a liar and a fool ..I win, you lose. I'm not even going to read the rest of your idiocy since you've completely discredited yourself. Just like every other vegan liar and fool always does.

No no. I win you loose. When you start making personal attacks instead of focusing on the discussion. I'm not a vegan, if I am or not is irrrelevant. You are the ignorant here. In nowhere you read that eating meat is beneficial because there is no proof of that. You don't need meat. Again if you replace saturated fats with unsaturated ones and whole grain carbohydrates the benefits are unquestionable.

What is not mentioned in this discussion and would be helpfull is how much is too much meat.

Because this argument that "we eat too much meat" is valid for anything, thus meaningless. Cyanide is a poison and we eat it in almonds but in minute quantities making it irrelevant.

So yes we agree, we eat too much meat.

   It's not a matter of who is winning or who is losing, but what happens ultimately as a result of the interaction. That said, I don't feel your being completely fair to Teralek's point.  All human's will die someday, it is the nature and quality (or state) of being mortal. Maybe it's just me, but I dont feel he was making an absolutist statement, though he has a tendency have a writing style that lends itself to this impression, in its' forcefulness. Strangeness of the inner workings of the body, need a light springling of dire warnings (as with my thread to thread) due to ultimate and health concerns of diets of Western societies. Jean Claude van damme eats a healthy diet but even he consumes some meat proteins about once a month. I eat a relatively Vegan diet but just the other night I ate a egg and sausage sandwich, simply to keep me awake and they served absolutely nothing else at such an ungodly hour.   For the women,  if your pregnant,  the majority of health care professionals feel those FOODS should be avoiding, these types of foods are not that helpful to any of them.

 



 

 

  Image is  a  Cross Thread thematic allusion . .



  Differing 'accounts' regarding the death of Diogenes of Sinope. He is alleged to have died from eating raw octopus if it was the true cause of his death or not is completely secondary. Stoic views that only a sage can be considered truly free, and that all moral corruptions. The whole idea of we all have a tendency to miss the mark, so to speak.




 


Off-site Delays ahead !!  (attn.  0ff - site  lurkers)  p.s. --    Many nuts are nutritional powerhouses are packed with heart-healthy fats, plus they are more fun to nibble ( allows thinking people to think nonsense which isn't taking place via allusions ).






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i really have never

i really have never understood people whose prime motivation behind their decision-making is living the maximum number of years possible. i mean, the thought of dying before my sons are adults with at least a high school diploma does worry me. i'll be around 50 when that happens, so i figure living with a bit of common sense will see me through, barring an accident of course, and any health problems that might kill me before then are probably unavoidable by mere lifestyle changes. i see any years beyond my sons reaching adulthood as bonuses. i'd like to have them, sure, but i don't count on them, and i certainly don't obsess over them.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:i really have

iwbiek wrote:
i really have never understood people whose prime motivation behind their decision-making is living the maximum number of years possible.

 

 My great grandfather smoked filterless cigarettes his entire adult life and died at age 89.  Cause of death ? ...being really old. 

Solitude is the best companion. Henry David Thoreau.


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 I read the

 I read the acknowledgements of some sci fi/fantasy book I had picked up for light reading in an airport. I can't remember the author or even the story, but he said something I got a good chuckle at. Paraphrasing:"Thank you Red Bull for helping through the countless hours spent writing this book, the years you took off the end of my life probably weren't going to be very good anyway."

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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I see no reason to respond

I see no reason to respond to the irrational vegan considering how Prozac and Beyond did so well on the points I didn't expand on. Everything else he said I'd already shown was a fabrication, so there's nothing else to touch on.

I still win, the vegans still lose.

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Beyond Saving wrote: I read

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I read the acknowledgements of some sci fi/fantasy book I had picked up for light reading in an airport. I can't remember the author or even the story, but he said something I got a good chuckle at. Paraphrasing:"Thank you Red Bull for helping through the countless hours spent writing this book, the years you took off the end of my life probably weren't going to be very good anyway."

 

Rofl that rings a vague bell with me. I think I read the same book, or that someone told me about it.
I can't stand energy drinks myself. And I've read a lot about them being unhealthy. But I think that much of the point of being in a 'free' society is having the freedom to do things that aren't necessarily good for you. I'd never support a ban on said drinks.
With meat, which is certainly proven to be healthy, considering any kind of a ban is just brainless.
But even if it were proved one day to be unhealthy and capable of shaving a few years off your life, I'd still stand against a ban. Who needs those last few years anyway? Adult diapers and nursing homes where you get treated like an infant and your family might visit once or twice a year don't appeal to me.

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Didn't the China study argue

Didn't the China study argue China was a vegan country when it wasn't?

Also you realize sea food consists of meat right? Shellfish, fish, etc etc?

Plus they love eating whale jerky. Japan is healthy eating perhaps more meat than Americans. They just don't eat processed meat


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  Being that I'm a

  Being that I'm a compassionate conservative and a meat eater, I believe the US government should round up and kill all the homeless people in America, process their bodies and feed them to all the starving children around the world.  That would lower our un-employment numbers to zero and go a long way toward alleviating an epidemic of world hunger.

Solitude is the best companion. Henry David Thoreau.


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:iwbiek

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
i really have never understood people whose prime motivation behind their decision-making is living the maximum number of years possible.

 

 My great grandfather smoked filterless cigarettes his entire adult life and died at age 89.  Cause of death ? ...being really old. 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/10968734/Brazilian-who-turned-126-years-old-last-week-could-be-oldes...

I think the secret to living long is avoiding marriage and smoking. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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it's harder if you have an

it's harder if you have an addictive personality, i guess. i have several vices, the most prominent being alcohol and tobacco, but if i can't get them (and there have been plenty of times i haven't smoked or drank for several weeks), i don't get the shakes or become irritable. i usually have a shot or two of hard alcohol and two or three beers after work nearly every day. i rarely do more than that because i genuinely dislike being more than buzzed. being drunk is not comfortable for me anymore; i probably get thoroughly ripped only once or twice a year. during the summer months (like now), i pretty much stick only to beer, as i'm not working in the city so i don't hit up the bars. i can live without liquor, but beer is the one thing i insist on having nearly every day.


as for tobacco, i smoke two or three times a week on average, usually sticking with my pipe, loaded with strong english blends that i don't inhale. a bowl often lasts me two sittings. if the mood strikes me, i'll smoke a camel or two, but a pack of cigarettes will usually last me at least a month, and often longer (and i don't always have one). in summer i'll sometimes smoke cigars and i often break out the hookah in the evenings. i smoke a lot more in the summer because i always have my pipe going when i mow the yard.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson