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Cliff Jumper
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This thread is for anyone here to ask me any question about the Catholic Faith they wish to ask. Questions about the Catholic faith can be about anything from Catholic history, teachings, and/or the Bible.  I only have a few rules/guidelines.

1.     Serious questions please. Please refrain from odd or insulting questions.

2.     Questions about the Church sex scandal are fine but please see guideline 3.

3.     Please keep it civil and polite, i.e. please do not refer to the Pope as the fuhrer, a pedophile, kiddy fiddler, and etc. This also applies to the clergy in general.

4.     Stay on topic. Obviously I’ll do this myself too.

5.     Please refrain from insulting me, i.e. “Why don’t you jump off a cliff” or “do yourself a favor and kill yourself”, and etc. The screen name refers to Cliffjumper the heroic Autobot from the Transformers series and toy line. Great show, movies, and toys by the way Laughing out loud

I will try my best to be prompt and as detailed as possible. I am working on my thesis. So I may be busy sometimes.  Also I will try to answer each person’s question in the order in which I see them.

Thank you.

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff. -The Doctor


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Get a sense of humor !!

  To:: 0P (0n-site ONLY)

  




 

 

Fixing what cannot be fixed -- Off - site ::

 

                                                                          The future started yesterday . . .

 



 > Re::  You're eyes just looked straight through me.

  To: Addressed To: Cliff Jumper

Cliff Jumper wrote:

danatemporary wrote:

  > Re ::  Remember Me . . .

 Remember Me (double reference, and double meaning) . . .

 

 Or are you just being funny?

 



    Isn't it clear  there's  a method  to all the madness, be assured . . .

 

 

  * Sigh *

   

 

 

     The canonical Gospel according to Saint Mark Ch.  14 --  '' .. and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?” But He kept silent and did not answer''

 

 

Who can make me feel this way? Nothing, "I" mean nothing ''I've'' said speaks to you  as being that way  nor caustic,  K?

 

 

 

   Gospel of  Saint  John  --  19:23-30  (NRSVCE):

 

    When the soldiers had crucified Jesus, they took his clothes and divided them into four parts, one for each soldier. They also took his tunic; now the tunic was seamless, woven in one piece from the top.  So they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see who will get it.” This was to fulfill what the scripture says,

 

 “They divided my clothes among themselves,
     and for my clothing they cast lots.”

  And that is what the soldiers did.  Meanwhile, standing near the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.   When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing beside her, he said to his mother, “Woman, here is your son.”  Then he said to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his own home.

  After this, when Jesus knew that all was now finished, he said (in order to fulfill the scripture), “I am thirsty.”  A jar full of sour wine was standing there. So they put a sponge full of the wine on a branch of hyssop and held it to his mouth.  When Jesus had received the wine, he said, “It is finished.” Then He bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

 



 

 





  0P --  

   Like many .. you're not very good at the accurate representation of people's comments on this board.  Like with me,  I can't seem to stop making obscure references and giving detailed explanations about things or even indulging in simple cryptic references, if that makes any sense.  It's just second nature to me.

        And .. Get a sense of humor !!

 

 

   (See:: Image) 

 

        I think you might have a case  if I , for example, had included this image  displayed  here or above!

 

     With the OP, a simple reminder, if I may . . .

 

     Self-importance

      ((self-im·por·tance)) noun   a  noun:  an exaggerated sense of one's own value or importance.

                                                                                                definition --  an exaggerated sense of one's own value or importance

 

 



 

 

GALATIANS 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

 

  p.p.s. --  Dude, about people! Allow a friendly warning, try not to be frustrated; but,  when people on this board start to openly go for grabbing for a bottle, . . it's a bad bad sign.


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iwbiek wrote:butterbattle

iwbiek wrote:
butterbattle wrote:

The semantics. It hurts.




i feel you, i do. the problem is, the OP isn't using "finite" in an ordinary language sense. he's using it in this very scholastic way, in contrast with "inifinite," to erroneously reinforce one of his ridiculous thomistic axioms. that's why i focus on it so much. yes, strictly speaking, finity exists, obviously. but infinity is still theoretical, therefore finity, juxtaposed with infinity, is still just as theoretical.


I still remember the first few times I came up against this strategy. I don't think it cost me the debate but it certainly floored me. It took a lot of effort and time before I even could understand what the theist was trying to do. It didn't help that I was much younger and ignorant about a lot of science and logic at the time.

I still can't describe it in words, but I do now have a grasp on where the theist is coming from when they resort to infinity and finity. And I've developed an (I think) effective counter strategy. Actually this is as good a time as any to get outside views.

If anyone is at all interested in critiquing my responses regarding infinity & finity, I'd be quite interested to see if anyone thinks I have something horribly wrong or that I'm misrepresenting anything.

Of course, theists critiques are unlikely to be worthwhile, but I'd read them anyway.

(edit block for iwbieks sanity)

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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I don't think--or

recall any such words as infinite or finite in the book. There might be in some versions or abstract explainations but the terms aren't biblical forum. That puts me back to-- it's  a Euro attachment or assumption in their teachings. A classic attempt to infuse something of their old religion before the bible was acquired by Western civilizations/peoples. The problem as we see it is, Westerners attempting to interpret a document they didn't (and still don't) understand. The book wasn't written by people with a Euro mindset and so the Euros made it fit thier acting religion of their time. The writers of the book aren't attempting to fix Europeann society or anyones as they knew that no civilization can be fixed. The writers are attempting to reinstall their own ancient beliefs which were at the time of Adam, and in essence are saying, hey floks, be like Adam and you won't have all these problems. In the biblical sense it is only logical that Adam had it right as far as the writers of the book were conserned. The fall then is the Adammites exchanging their beliefs for what everyone else believed. And if so then, the object of the book is to returm the decendants of Adam back to the beliefs of Adam. Being that the change took place "before" the Hebrew tribes were formed means they never had it right, but a certain number of them (prophets) knew what it was. However, as in all religions and governments-if you got it right and they don't they didn't allow you to live (still the case today)to long. Authorities don't take well to being wrong and some pion have it right, and in turn be a challenge to their athoritative legitimacy. Yer ded.

Today the Isrealis have an essence of it but still don't understand their religion as compared to the Adamites. If the true religion was of the Adamites then todays Israeli religion can't be the true religion of their ancestors, being it was Nimrod that instututed the change before their tribal formings. They're going to poop their pants when they get around to understanding this. According to their own book and prophets they can't possibly have a true religion---if one is to assume or accept that Adam was thier true religion.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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"Bubblaherino" wrote . . . ((Contacting in Cyberspace))

 http://www.rationalresponders.com/comment/reply/34587/412331?quote=1#comment-form

 

 

butterbattle wrote:

Bubblaherino wrote:
In our interpretation God does not create the material universe-it the other way-the material universe creates God/Us.We also find that there are no real Christians on the planet. Even us Old Seers don't regard ourselves as Christians. In our interpretation God does not create the material universe-it the other way-the material universe creates God/Us.

Regardless, Cliff Jumper himself seems to be a fairly typical Catholic of the more indoctrinated flavor, based on what I've read so far. So, it would probably be productive for him to take my comments to heart, but I doubt he will. Would he even agree with you on what you consider to be evidence?

.. Also, let's be careful to not get too off topic as this is Cliff Jumper's thread.

    . . .

   (For non-site  never before  to the site  lurkers . . you may not have run across Old Seer)

 



 

  (Smiling)

   The Pauline Epistle to the Romans  "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities  .. those which exist are established by god’’

 

  "Without holiness no-one will see G-d'' :

 

  Hebrews 12:14  -- Make every effort to strive for peace with all and without holiness no one will see the Κύριον (literally 'the Master')

 

 p.p.s.  --   . . .

  Wait ,  fore   I   won't  be right with you Sad

 


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Hi Dana

danatemporary wrote:

 http://www.rationalresponders.com/comment/reply/34587/412331?quote=1#comment-form

 

 

butterbattle wrote:

Bubblaherino wrote:
In our interpretation God does not create the material universe-it the other way-the material universe creates God/Us.We also find that there are no real Christians on the planet. Even us Old Seers don't regard ourselves as Christians. In our interpretation God does not create the material universe-it the other way-the material universe creates God/Us.

Regardless, Cliff Jumper himself seems to be a fairly typical Catholic of the more indoctrinated flavor, based on what I've read so far. So, it would probably be productive for him to take my comments to heart, but I doubt he will. Would he even agree with you on what you consider to be evidence?

.. Also, let's be careful to not get too off topic as this is Cliff Jumper's thread.

    . . .

   (For non-site  never before  to the site  lurkers . . you may not have run across Old Seer)

 



 

  (Smiling)

   The Pauline Epistle to the Romans  "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities  .. those which exist are established by god’’

 

  "Without holiness no-one will see G-d'' :

 

  Hebrews 12:14  -- Make every effort to strive for peace with all and without holiness no one will see the Κύριον (literally 'the Master')

 

 p.p.s.  --   . . .

  Wait ,  fore   I   won't  be right with you Sad

 

OK. But just a minute. I have a correction to make for "Pauline". We, the Smurfs, do not think that the writers of the OT and NT are correct on everything. Let's look at it. The Pauline statement would be rediculous from our perspective--it dosen't make sense. Smiling  Smiling  Smiling. (what happed to the emoticons?) What good is such a statement when it's necessary to go against established authorities to bring about changes. It's they that create and are the main reason for the problems on the planet. How can they possibly know (evidence is everywhere) what they're doing if they created such a mess on planet earth. Today--no one seems to like their governments---look at the mess we have going on. On the other hand--to go against them one must consider who the police and militaries actually serve----well, it's not the people. The first job of police and militaries is to protect those that are the "authorities" from the people. Sorry about that Ms. Pauline, but you have some explaining to do. Who shows up when the local floks gather outside the mayors office to demand changes---it's the police--right. You'll notice that the mayor doesn't have to listen to you no matter how many of you there are--AND---he can order the police to get your asses off the public steps--and if any cop wants his paycheck this coming friday he'd damn well better do it--or no pay the following week because he'll/she'll be out looking for a new job. Is this Smurfer correct or not. What sense does your statement make if the "authorities" have a police/military force <-----to "force you to comply anyway. So it doesn't make any difference whether one elects to comply willfully when there's no choice regardless. Ms. Pauline, you have to redo your thinking here. To willfully comply with governments madates without scrutiny and rejection "if" necessary makes one submissivly "STUPID". AND--to say that one should go along with the mandates of idiots makes no sense when the blind bastids will send the cops anyway if one don't?????? 

 So, your advice is to--go along to get along, is that it ---with people that can do nothing other then keep the mess going and making it worse. One of the reasons this worldly mess keeps active is because well meaing floks like you keep giving this kind of ignorant advice--and everyone keeps marching off to the dump pile the "Authorities" created and maintain. Without being aware of it , Pauline, your saying that "we the people" should keep following the mental degenerates that are in charge.  The only way anyone needs to be "submissive" is to consider the likelyhood of acquiring 8 to 12 9mm  bloody ass holes down the back rolling up one's spine like a window shade. So, your advice is absurd. It's obvious you don't have a clue as to what manner of floks run the world.   Sorry about that, but you have to rethink your position as the government floks today aren't about Pax intercontinentalianna, they're about war intercontinentalianna (called terrorism) for profit. Today there's more profits in war then peace for the big Kahunas leading this fools parade.

Don't worry about The Cliff Jumper Dana. He'll have to learn over time as many others will also. In time all religions and governments will be removed. There's going to be holy hell and high water before it gets done. What else??? We live on a planet that the intellectual elements (people) can only learn the hard way--so--that's the way it will be. The first key is to put aside the "super guy in the sky" and realize that what's going on here is dictated by those in charge. Considering that his superness isn't powerful enough to straighten things out the masse will have to do it for themselves. All they need to know is the right stuff and it'll come about. Ms. Pauline is going to have to understand that. Instead of informing on how to correct the situation she says--go along with it. If JC says -Satan is the God of this world, who's idea of God is she referring to. 

 

 

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Why doesn't anyone see the fun in everything ???

   >   Why doesn't anyone see the fun, THE SERIOUS 'Fun'  .. in everything ???

 

 See:: View/See  Uploaded  image . . .

 



 



See:: View/See  Uploaded  image . . .

 

  "Count Your Blessings (Instead of Sheep)" is a popular song written by Irving Berlin for the 1954 movie White Christmas.

   (("Count Your Blessings (Instead of Sheep)" is a popular song written by Irving Berlin for the 1954 movie White Christmas ))
 







 


          I got nothing left to prove,  and if I got nothing left to prove (or 'disprove'); then, does that make me dangerous ??!?

     Soli del gloria  Man , It's christmas  every  single day around here, especially inside  . .

 



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Hey----

danatemporary wrote:

   >   Why doesn't anyone see the fun, THE SERIOUS 'Fun'  .. in everything ???

 

 See:: View/See  Uploaded  image . . .

 



 



See:: View/See  Uploaded  image . . .

 

  "Count Your Blessings (Instead of Sheep)" is a popular song written by Irving Berlin for the 1954 movie White Christmas.

   (("Count Your Blessings (Instead of Sheep)" is a popular song written by Irving Berlin for the 1954 movie White Christmas ))
 







 


          I got nothing left to prove,  and if I got nothing left to prove (or 'disprove'); then, does that make me dangerous ??!?

     Soli del gloria  Man , It's christmas  every  single day around here, especially inside  . .

 


I'm a happy dude.  (Smiling=(

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


danatemporary
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> We all create our own fun . . thank you for sticking it out

Old Seer wrote:

danatemporary wrote:

   >   Why doesn't anyone see the fun, THE SERIOUS 'Fun'  .. in everything ???

I'm a happy dude.   Smiling

   Again,  We  all  create our own 'fun' . .  Btw, thank you, again,  for sticking it out  there Old Seer!  You just add to the vast diversity of the board that is always the case; which is  nice, it's nice when things are nice  (smiling)

   Misc.  miscellāneus, -- Pics (View The Pics Uploaded)    Man,  Just  try  to keep up . . . 


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I'll reply

on my usual thread, for araugo. I'm highjacking this thread so I have to move on.


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? 'All' Catholics assume the Blessed Mother Mary, the same Mary?

  [ Quote = danatemporary ]

 

re:: Tremendous faith required and shown by Mary (according to the Canonical Gospel accounts) ::

 

 

? 'All' Catholics assume the Blessed Mother Mary, is the same Mary . . (See: In this cell)?,?

 

zarathustra wrote:

  1. If Mary was assumed directly into heaven, does that mean she still has her earthly body, while everyone else in heaven does not?

 

  TO :: OP (mainly the OP)

    **The document tells of  Mary's virginity before giving birth,  but traditions  arose  that  suggest  a perpetual virginity of Mary, correct ?  Jesus  had brothers and sisters  so shouldn't that worry you a bit ?!?

 

 The Gospel of Saint Matthew Ch.1 / Gospel According to Saint Luke Ch.2  -- New King James Version (NKJV)

  ''Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child'' ''..before they came together,  she was found with child.  Then Joseph her husband, being a just man not trying to get out of it and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things,  behold,  an angel of the Lord appeared to him  in a dream,  saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit'' .. ''So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered.  And she was to bring forth her firstborn Son .. Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night.  And behold,  an angel of God stood before them, and  the glory of the LORD shone around them,  and they were greatly afraid.  Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people.  For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord''.

========================================================================

 ----

 

     But Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart.

 =======================================================================================

 "Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these''


  Note ::  ** I cannot help but be reminded of Draupadi, in a sacred Hindu text Draupadi was the wife of the five pandavas, wife to each of the five, .. her's was another expectedly eventful life.  The god Shiva promised that she would regain her virginity each morning when she took her bath, thus allowing her to be the wife of all five of the pandavas. (Comparisons actually pretty unintentional, was simply reminded so do not obsess!)!

  p.s. -- No explicit statement  about what is  believable in mentioning this, no significance beyond the question it poses.

[ / Quote ]

 



 



 

 

 

 

 



 



  Attn. -- MIA   OP --

  You know . .  the one

  Re:: You know . . the one

 

 

   ..  Whatever . .

    =======================================================================================

    =======================================================================================

 

   Do all Roman Catholics assume the Blessed Mother Mary, the same Mary whom all generations "shall call blessed." (Gospel of Saint Luke 1:48), is the woman clothed with the sun, the one  spoken  of in the prophetic / apocalyptic literature that was included in the New Testament canon, namely the Book of Revelation ?
 

 

 

 

  Reference for any lurkers who have never been to the site, as follows ::


 Rev. XII : 1-5 --   ''A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars adorn on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign when a dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its' tail ((Rev. 21:1d)) swept a third of the stars out of the sky ..and flung them. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her baby child.  She gave  birth  to a son,  a male child,  who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter ((Rev. I :14-15))” And her child was snatched up to God and to His throne (end quote)''
 

p.s. -- And  Once again,  No explicit statement . . beyond the question it poses.


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Well Dana-- :)

Proper Christian form has nothing to do with a persons genetals, male or female. As in --via the info of the Apiostles--there is neither Greek nor Jew, Sythian  nor Barbarian in these works, or, ways of Christianity --which means it isn't about anything physical. And likewise also--there is neither Male nor Female in the works--meaning, it's not about the body but about the person/mind/spiritual. All this tripe about Mary mother of JC's virginity is brought about by nothing more then the darkage Euro facination of sex and who's got what type of genetals. It seems to me they're more interested in "getting" someone's genetals then forwarding peace on the planet, which is the case because they haven't done it as yet because they don't know how.  The Euros made their brand of Christianity patterned after thier obsessions of body worship having nothing to do or even akin to proper Christianity. There's nothing wrong with the bod--there's something out of wack with their thinking and mindset. And--to be concerned as to whether Mary accended in a golden elevator in the empire state building or not is moot and doesn't make diddly of any importance in forwarding Christianity's mission. I don't know if the Cliff guy is going to be around to comment.I think he upped and tooked off,

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


Brian37
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Old Seer wrote:Proper

Old Seer wrote:

Proper Christian form has nothing to do with a persons genetals, male or female. As in --via the info of the Apiostles--there is neither Greek nor Jew, Sythian  nor Barbarian in these works, or, ways of Christianity --which means it isn't about anything physical. And likewise also--there is neither Male nor Female in the works--meaning, it's not about the body but about the person/mind/spiritual. All this tripe about Mary mother of JC's virginity is brought about by nothing more then the darkage Euro facination of sex and who's got what type of genetals. It seems to me they're more interested in "getting" someone's genetals then forwarding peace on the planet, which is the case because they haven't done it as yet because they don't know how.  The Euros made their brand of Christianity patterned after thier obsessions of body worship having nothing to do or even akin to proper Christianity. There's nothing wrong with the bod--there's something out of wack with their thinking and mindset. And--to be concerned as to whether Mary accended in a golden elevator in the empire state building or not is moot and doesn't make diddly of any importance in forwarding Christianity's mission. I don't know if the Cliff guy is going to be around to comment.I think he upped and tooked off,

Nope, you cannot change the words in that book. Watering it down and cherry picking it does not change the social norms inside and outside of that book. In antiquity women and girls were property, so the book reflects the social norms of it's time.

It is a book of myth, and abook full of sexism, bigotry, and violence, under the watch of, or sanctioned by God.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I'm not changing any words.

There's many materialistic versions of the book oppostie ours useing different wordings--we understand all of them, basically. I'm quoting the apostles in my post. That's what they say. anyway--this thread is the man's who jumps cliffs. I would like hime to respoind to my post but I think he left. Any reply you have should be taken to   For Araugo--in the general discusions forum.  

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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I quote a lot of things . . . GET IT ?!!?????

 Biggest of the FYIs  --  I quote alot of things . . .

danatemporary wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 By the by . .

  Did it ever occurr  to you,  if you refuse to directly talk to someone . . you are left continually guessing .. ?!??  I happen to quote a-lot of things . . many of which are nothing  you'd be caught dead quoting.  Get it ?!!???

 

 

 


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The Blame game . . . Or then there's The Beatitudes

 The Blame game . . . Or then there's The Beatitudes

 Re :: The Blame game . . . Or then there's The Beatitudes

danatemporary wrote:

 

 

 Must watch video  (no choice!!) !!

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Well sure, small farms can be successful in a niche, I never said they couldn't. There is a couple around here that makes pretty decent money selling duck eggs. But you have to consider why they are successful. They succeed because they can charge substantially more for their product, because nobody is mass producing it and selling it for a much lower cost. Small local honey farmers can't produce enough to feed honey to all 300 million Americans. If they did, they would no longer be small, they would have to turn to mass production techniques. 

 . .  their goal is to expand in to every state selling raw, organic honey.

The only place you can get their honey is at the farmer's market or online. Of which, maybe they are more successful because they sell stuff like chocolate honey and soap, etc.

    Apparently,  the big money  in honey bees  is in pollinating crops. The honey itself is more of a byproduct that adds a little to the bottom line for most commercial honey bee populations in the US. I never knew that. I had heard of the practice, but didn't realize how integral it was with crops like almonds. Apparently, virtually every large scale commercial honey bee in the US

  >> Must watch video  (no choice) http://vimeo.com/8628813  If you cannot link to it, if you hope to rightly understand the ref.  then seriously look it up, worth a moment of your time(s) . . .

 

   Honey bees are constantly exposed to numerous threats: pests and parasites ''(such as the Varroa mite or Nosema), bacterial diseases (foulbrood), fungal diseases (chalkbrood), viral diseases (invertebrate iridescent virus – IIV), and pesticides. Now honey bees are facing an even greater risk: Colony Collapse Disorder (or CCD), a little understood phenomenon in which worker bees from a colony abruptly disappear''. It was interesting to watch, as people were more interested in assigning blame than-exploring the beginnings to address the  systemic or actual  problem  that led to this in the first place.

Off - site ::

 

  Back in the winter of 2006, this strange phenomenon that befell honeybee hives across this country. Had them gone without a trace, where millions of bees vanished from their home hives. A precious pollinator know them for the good  fruits and vegetables, but alas we found a situation of them disappearing, where the bees left, costing us all billions of dollars, and putting crops at risk and even threatened our very food supply.

   Honey is not Amrita/Amrit/AMBROSIA. Although I can be said it has often been mistakenly equated with it. Like the apple was equated with the golden forbidden fruit . . Three nymphs of the evening, the Hesperides, also obstructed the path to the tree.  No veiled reference it's actually found in the ancient sources, is all; so no biggie !!   Oh,  But you said, .. you said . . .

 

 

   > If I cannot write something for fear it may either offend or jeopardize things, at what point do I begin to simply not care anymore. Think about it!!

   For those not in the know, Bhasmasura&Mohini__L-1.png pic sadly, I personally can only think of two people (three if you count myself)  who'd know what this image was actually making reference to in the first place. Not knowing the ref. would lead to the very wrong interpretation indeed (but why should I even begin to care anymore), you think ?!?? And, Shame on all your houses  for not reviewing your ancient texts. Often online sources are just that and leave us with a truly incomplete reference that your cursory examination may simply miss altogether.  But, For a major Hint   Here's a helpful little  *Hint*  in the Video . . .

   http://vimeo.com/8628813 {http://vimeo.com/8628813}



    Lol    Then let's do this !! 0ff-site ::

  In the Christian biblical canon  . . Ref.  2 Timothy 1:7

    Not   nearly  enough said . . .

 


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Permanent encampment on Mt. Anger

   T0 : Not addressing anybody on these premises or this particular site, in this . . .

  What do you really want out of all of this,  in the end ??!??

 Re :: Permanent encampment on Mt. Anger  ( Permanent encampment on Mt. Anger )

   Reach me  or  don't reach me . . .

   KJV Only --  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

   Curious ::  So there is nothing left to be done ???

   

  There's this spine-chillingly eerie experience I experienced from a defrocked 'Baptist' preacher who I couldn't reel off a list of the more typical reasons for his situation but in his case he was ousted '' for preaching the Gospel " honestly. That aside though,. Anywho! He was always purposely talking about how Moses never did enter the promised land when I was around. I mean, He always used to use this reference whenever I was around him, repeatedly to me. I had no idea what could explain or what spawned his behaviour, in doing this, so it became nothing more of a curiousity than wondering  about ''why'', when I was in ear-shot.  I am beginning  to find-out  now  apparently. 

   So the Question: "Why was Moses not allowed to enter the Promised Land?"

   A possible answer:
In Numbers 20:8, the Tetragrammaton הֹוָה. told Moses, "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its' water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink." Numbers 20:9-11 records Moses' response: "So Moses took the staff from the LORD's presence, just as he commanded Moses. He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, ‘Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water . . ?’ Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock .. water gushed out, and those of the community and their livestock did drink." The Lord was displeased with Moses’ actions: “Because you did not trust enough to honor  as ' holy' in their sight, the sight of the Israelites, so you will not bring this community into the land I give them” (Numbers 20:12).

 The fact that the Torah records the mistakes of Moses (as well as many other great biblical figures) is help to establish a more believably authentic 'human-being' described in the words of the pentateuch. In ancient Judaism, it teaches that their forefathers they were not "saints with halos," but were mere mortals who made mistakes (and everything).

  What did Moses do that warranted such a severe penalty from  הֹוָה ? Not to get into the whole thing but Moses was rather famous for his temper.  Moses disobeyed a direct command from god. God had commanded Moses to speak to the rock. Instead, Moses struck the rock with his staff, but he did that because had been provoked to anger . . .  Wonder why that would come to my mind, no I do not wonder at all why this would come to mind  off-site  time to be truthful and step up . .  Miss

 

. . .

 

   p.s. --    As long as you continue, nothing is to be done, so it remains. Although, Try to at least begin to  never  forget though, that   I myself have a right to the tree of life, hun. I never wanted any outcome that didnt allow for me to be allowed to enter into the promise (very truly). So, Where does it leave us then ?

  



  Other non-site ::  Bible REF.  --  2 Pet. -- And we ourselves heard this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy hill.

 


Atheistextremist
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Hi Cliff Jumper - here's my one question

Cliff Jumper wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Cliff Jumper wrote:

You are misunderstanding. God is infinte, immaterial, omnipotent, omnipresent, omni-just, omni-loving, omni-mercifiul, all good, and perfect. In other words it is His very nature to be all these things.

 

 

Please define these words - infinite, omnipotent, omni-just, omni-merciful, all good, perfect and most curiously, immaterial. Explain how you were able to ascertain the very nature of your still undefined idea of god. Explain how it is logical to assume the first premise of any argument - in this case, that premise is god. Would you agree that you are using undefined and undefinable labels to define an undefined and undefinable god?

 

Cliff Jumper wrote:
 

For us we were created perfect, and allowed to choose between life and love or death and hate. One cannot love without choice, free will. Without choice we would simply be robots, slaves. There would be know love, no joy, and no perfection.

 

As well as being predicated on the bald assertion of a still undefined state of perfection, this argument proposes a false dichotomy - we get to choose between life and love, and death and hate. Human nature is more nuanced than this. Further, love and joy are products of the mammalian limbic system, they aren't really a matter of choice. Ask anyone who suffers depression. As for perfection, this label applies to a human concept that is subjective - there is no empirical measurement of perfection. 

Again, CJ, could you tell us if you have any doubts about your christian beliefs? Or are you utterly certain?

 

Pick one topic.

 

What do you consider evidence to be? 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Oh, he's gone.

 

That was a fascinating look at the irrationality of dogmatic epistemology. An entire philosophy based on bald assertions.

And it was true because it's true

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Oh, he's gone

 

 Taking the easy way, isn't an easy way . . Miss; it could be time to be allowed to step outside of herself, given the situation . .

0ff-site ::

 

  Re:: (0ff-site Elders  -- It's easy to murmur, when it not EVER been about you)

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 Oh, he's gone . . . 

 

 

   Yeah,  something to truly fear, is he is actually . . gone .

 

 

 

  Pop Trivia Quiz question of the week, from Missionaries of the christian faith, Then and Now  By danatemporary -

  ==========================================================================

  Who was the christian missionary to china pouring all of himself into this effort to capture the imagination of certain youths; who tried to lived by selfless example, when he fell ill while enduring further imprisonment in Weihsien, 'although he was offered' a chance at true freedom "and repatriation by the Chinese, he insisted a pregnant woman take his place instead".   Yeah, You can try to name him (  searching or researching is permitted ) . .

 

  p.s. --   So  Moses was acting unwisely unsubmissive . .  hmm. Must be a cautionary tale of sorts, then ?!!

 


 


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Care to established criteria for determining a heretical nature

 (?) Care to established criteria for determining a heretical nature ?!!? On  and especially Off - site

danatemporary wrote:

 The Blame game . . . Or then there's The Beatitudes

 Re :: The Blame game . . . Or then there's The Beatitudes

 

   > If I cannot write something for fear it may either offend or jeopardize things, at what point do I begin to simply not care anymore. Think about it!!

  

  0ff-site ::   0ff-site ::  

 ((For we know in part  ..  You know, the 'love' Chapter))

  You're not doing it the right way . . . but everyone else is wrong. You force each of the twins to hold to the tradition of men. With no thought of the more than likely negative consequences


 

     A  word  in  your  pink and shell like . . You know what, A completely unexamined, unmentioned, or underexamined doctrinal proposition, as ALL of christendom would consider propositional truth. Is not to same nor to be confused with "secretly-introducing destructive heresies" Time out! Okay, We don't want to be overly critical of 'our brethren', you realize, this system is not working, and you've forced 'us' to all stop talking, again ?!??  I shouldn't have to say this, I mean, why would anyone ?!? . . . It doesnt matter what works or what doesnt  work,  . . at least  there  is  a  record.

 



 

  Must Watch YouTube -- Video  Twins

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7S537b7saE {https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7S537b7saE}

   It's the answer, . . it's when every thing happens

 --  --

  0ff-site :: (Attn. -- OVER 35)  Do try to remember your “doxology”

  For we know in part

   Important Image (please consider the following) . . . (( For we know in part  ..  You know, the 'love' Chapter ))

 

 


 


 


  F r e e d o m  .  .

 " I'm  too much . . ''

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XArbwSNroXU {www.youtube.com/watch?v=XArbwSNroXU} no identifiable trigger for that oh-so prevalent 'inappropriate' sense of humor overdue to spontaneously combust

 

 

  F i n


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Unwise to ask and very not wise to offer but . .

danatemporary wrote:

Cliff Jumper wrote:

Response to danatemporary:

And the point of your posts are what exactly? Can you clearly state your point(s), please? No offense but with all the other posts around it is jumbled and disjointed.

   I beg to differ,  Just a moment junior,   if one compared each of the diverse and various ''messages'' I've sent, as if to  run a human algorithm through them; it makes for a  meaningful relationships between each which are gradually established across from thread to thread.  What you dont understand and are the 'victim' of is your types come and go,  we all live here  (lol).  It can’t happen without it, sorry for the bad impression it leaves to some.

 




 

 

 

Unwise to ask and very not wise to offer but . .

 TO::  0P

  Family / Familiar 'continuity" .. according to the Genesis  account: 

  Tanakh , Ch . 15 --  Abram said, O Lord G-d, what will You give unto me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house . . Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who will come forth from your own inward parts, he shall be your heir." (background/reminder  verse in The Book of Genesis XVI, verse II)

Real/true love 'is' sacrifice

    In the same vein as / of  Einstein's thought experiments, this is a true biblicists' 'thought experiment', by the given account:
 

   Well, What if Hagar hadn't existed ? What then ?  Charles Swindoll, U.S. pastor/author, suggests, no insists that : (QUOTE)''He (the ALMIGHTY) would have never allowed Hagar to conceive if He didn't approve''   To my mind, this is a controversially provocative suggestion on the part of Mr. Chuck.  So, Your thoughts, please. No time limit on any of this, you know.
 

 Poetry corner

    Freebie --  The Moon rose, the stars refused to twinkle, while the wild winter's misty wind murmured amongst the branches of the tree of life,. Within the darkness a light glimmered .. And hope was re-born

 

  Any thoughts ???



 

  Real/true love 'is' sacrifice

  Related YouTube video --

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPDr56_5l0 {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPDr56_5l0}

 

 (( Edit :: Added Isa. V:XX -- Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness . . ))

 

p.s. -- Dana is unpredictable,  .. for the most part,.

 

 


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Submitted by danatemporary on September 26th

   * Pathways   divides into two similar flows on either side providing a path to walk within

  similar but not the only example(s) . .

 

   It  all  serves a real  purpose . . . do not  stress over it again !!

 0ff - site

 Re :: Pathways   divides into two similar flows on either side providing a path to walk within

 

:

  http://tinypic.com/r/24w54p3/8
 

   If it hasn't dawned on you, here is the parting of the waters,  as  was  spoken of with the Yamuna River, again, which was said to have parted to make way for  path, as the baby being carried along while crossing it, See: Three Image Uploads,. Side Note :: Purely as a reminder, Vasudeva (Devanagari वसुदेव IAST Vasudeva) was the father of Lord Krishna, the son of Shoorsen (of the Yadu and Vrishni dynasties). He was brother of King Nand Baba  who was foster parent of Lord Krishna. His sister Kunti was married to Pandu. Kunti, she, is seen throughout the Mahabharata . .

 

 

  2 Kings 2:5-14 (JUB)

  ''And they were at Jericho came to Elisha and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head today? And he answered, Yes, I know it; be silent.

  And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here, for the LORD has sent me to the Jordan. And he said, As the LORD lives and as thy soul lives, I will not leave thee. And thus the two went on.

  And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went and stood in front of them afar off; and the two of them stood by the Jordan.

  And Elijah took his mantle and wrapped it together and smote the waters, and they separated to one side and the other so that they both went over on dry ground.

  And when they had gone over, Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee before I am taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

  And he said, Thou hast asked a difficult thing. If thou shalt see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee, but if not, it shall not be so.

  And it came to pass, as they still went on and talked, that, behold, a chariot of fire with horses of fire separated the two, and Elijah went up into heaven in a whirlwind.

  And as Elisha saw it, he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more, and he took hold of his own clothes and rent them in two pieces.

  And lifting up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, he went back and stood by the bank of the Jordan.

  And taking up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, he smote the waters, and said, Where is the LORD God of Elijah? And when he smote the waters, they separated to one side and the other, and Elisha went over ''



 


 

    ::

 

      Vedism's  quoting from the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam IV  of Shri Narayana-  Says, '' Unless one renders devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva, one cannot possibly become completely detached from this material world, nor can he possibly manifest real knowledge . . ''

 


  On- Site ::

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaB19auvjc8 {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaB19auvjc8}

   (Astonishment) Good Grief is that a horse ? Thundarr's 'ookla' from the race of the moks, rode a rather 'alien' looking horse.

      It's  all coming back to you . . mst3k wannabes are having all sorts of fun with this *futuristic* Hanna-Barbera barbarian series, as seen in many YouTube(s), ..you betcha! It's not the only example either.

 


Vastet
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I'm pretty sure he's not

I'm pretty sure he's not coming back...

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


iwbiek
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Vastet wrote:I'm pretty sure

Vastet wrote:
I'm pretty sure he's not coming back...



that's never really stopped dana...


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iwbiek wrote:Vastet

iwbiek wrote:
Vastet wrote:
I'm pretty sure he's not coming back...

that's never really stopped dana...

Damn! I wanted to point out an error in his "logic" : An infinite thing may still have a beginning, but if so, being infinite just means it cannot have an end...

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Bandwidth is valuable and . . you are wasting it

  When the time comes, you will naturally get a response . .
 

   I think Cliff Jumper was overconfident   or was someone who was continually running away from a debate challenge; while simultaneously claiming that others issuing the challenge is just trying to avoid his arguments.

   Worse abuse he showed was the  ' '  (Quote) '' . . Bandwidth is valuable and .. you are wasting it ''

 

   There are times when you simply need to say something, or highlight something  . . See :: Image

  Image :: lovethissite__

   This is worth posting this image before I have to climb back in (it makes everything more interesting)

  

  http://tinypic.com/r/2n1t4iq/8

  http://i61.tinypic.com/2n1t4iq.jpg
 

 



 

 

    

    Reminder  "Harrumph''   Talk  Talk


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It's only a matter

of interpretation. The superficial interpretaion of Creation doesn't work. The interpretaion that creation is a change of personalities (otherwise known as spiritual-something mental) does. Biblical creation is psychological/mental, not about the physical or material, and poooof--a whole different story.   Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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1 Corinthians 13:13 The ''New'' King James Version (NKJV)

    >  1 Corinthians 13:13 The ''New'' King James Version (NKJV)

     Those  checking  this Thread  out . .   Other  Off - site  --

  There's nothing  else   you  lack    but   love  . . .

      It's  a  beautiful  day,     this is the day . . .

 

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV-Z1YwaOiw {www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV-Z1YwaOiw}

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFYSHrC6aKI {http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFYSHrC6aKI}

 

    King James Bible
    

      Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door  . . but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber

 

     Off - site ---   I love the no compromise stance  *Muah* . . .  Between the vicious little attitudes, to the radically vacillating  opinions ..  what  a  church 

 

    I never could endorse/accept (nor like) the radically vacillating  opinions, and  based  on  this site's content . .

  

    Friend  . .  It   will  be  alright . . . in the end  ( I just know it )

 

 

 


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Cliff Jumper wrote:Okay.

Cliff Jumper wrote:

Okay. Either I was not clear enough or you are misunderstanding my point about miracles, faith, and the need for works.

I am not saying antibiotics do not work unless you beleive they do. I am saying that antibiotics only work if you take them, and that by taking them you are trusting or believing they will work. You generally do not take medicine without some modicum of trust that it will work.  In otherwords just accepting that antibiotics or Jesus is real will not save you from your problem. You must act on that faith in the case of medicine take it. In the case of Christ ask, seek, and serve Him, make an act of the will. 

You can't compare the two. Antibiotics are made to be administered in a certain way (usually orally, perhaps some are rectally or intraveneously). The method of administrating antibiotics is consistent. There are things that can reduce their effectiveness (alcohol and such) but as long as you follow the directions (which are consistent), they work. 

You can't give directions that concise regarding `act(ing) on that faith'. As a Catholic, you were given the exact same directions as I was growing up. It was not effective. I have heard all sorts of varying directions. Those don't work either (and believe me, I tried as many as I possibly could before dropping it entirely). The two concepts (taking an antibiotic and acting on faith) are not compatible. 

Cliff Jumper wrote:

There is no contradiction of this theology in the Bible. The verses in Judges uphold this idea. In Judges Barak does not do the whole work and therefore does not fully believe. Deborah on the otherhand does all the works and thus believes fully.

I was referring my post talking of the cutting off/healing of the guard's ear when I said "above" not your post. The verses in judges imply that faith is required for works. The guard's ear being healed is 100% proof that (in the context of the bible) it is not. 

Cliff Jumper wrote:

In Luke what you have is God peforming a miracle for Malchus not only to heal him but as a sign to His disciples to learn peace and the need for Christ to be arrested and crucified. You are right there is no mention of an act of the will from Malchus, but there is also no mention of a lack of action. Regardless, God can perfrom miracles even if no one believes. In other words God's ability to do miracles is independent of people's beliefs or actions.

The part of your quote that I bolded is hilarious. It's the usual tactic by Christians to say that anything that the bible leaves unsaid is subject to interpretation. If there was indeed a relevant action that is required there (and there IS if your assertion that faith is required for works), then it would have been important to mention it. Of course, you then go and say that he can perform miracles anyway, independent of peoples' beliefs or actions. What happened here is that you established what to you was a rule of how god works (works require faith). Once you were provided with an example where someone who was not a faithful person (most probably anyway) was healed by him, then suddenly the rules change. Now, for a moment to cover all bases, I will grant that maybe Malchus was faithful in secret, and maybe there was an action that was implied (or one that simply happened, but wasn't written down). If that's the case, then the case of doubting Thomas should have never happened either. Somebody who was specifically described as a disbleliever in the resurrection was then simply given direct evidence and was, thus, the witness of a miracle in part directed at him (the part directed at him being Jesus appearing to him and prompting him to put his hands into all of his wounds). 

Cliff Jumper wrote:

How does this not contradict Mark 6:5 you might be wondering. Well there is one major reason. It has to do with the nature of miracles. Miracles' main purposes are the glory of God and the good of men. Miracles are signs performed by God to appeal to our intelligence (faculty of thought). In the case of Mark 6:5 miracles were performed in the presence of Christ's fellow countrymen to show His divinity but many disbelieved and took no action to try to believe.  God showed them His purpose and they rejected it. Thus He did not do anymore miracles not because He could not but because they would not serve God's purpose.

 

So he did perform miracles to them, but they still didn't believe him? Obvious ones? I have trouble believing that. Very similar to the old testament Exodus account where Moses's followers saw him summon the power of the god of which he spoke, that allowed him to part an entire sea for them to cross (and then go back to normal to drown those chasing them). Then some chapters later, these people sit to listen to what Moses has to say is this god's next command. When he comes down, he finds they've all just changed their minds and started worshipping other gods. This isn't a reasonable scenario, and it occurs a number of times across the bible. This whole idea that God showed them and they rejected it is asinine. Nobody behaves that way, despite what the bible says. 

Cliff Jumper wrote:

On to Ezekiel 14:9. Yes, it says, "As for the prophet, if he is beguiled into speaking a word, I, the LORD, shall have beguiled that prophet; I will stretch out my hand against him and root him out of my people Israel." However, it does not mean God is directly causing the deception. This a Hebrew writing style. To the Hebrews all things were in God's plan thus nothing that happened, happened without His knowledge and permission. Intermediate causes existed and were recognized by the Hebrews but ultimately it was all in God's will. Thus you have the shorthand of God is behind it because it is His plan. It is a short way of saying God allows or permits the deception of others by the false prophet.

 

If god is omnipotent and omniscient and he also created everything, then everything is going exactly according to his plan, even the choices that people make (be they free or not). A god of such power would necessarily have to know how to modify the initial parameters of the Universe to change any minute detail. The consequence is that if an omnipotent and omniscient god created the universe, then he is necessarily responsible for 100% of everything that ever happens. If you can not demonstrate a fault in this logic, then you must concede that god is responsible for every dictator and serial killer ever, as he would know how to modify things at the very beginning (if he's not being constantly active anymore) to prevent any single one from existing. Our ability to predict things usually has some margin of error (a margin that we can frequently measure and attach a real numerical figure to). However, if god is omniscient, it means that his margin of error is exactly 0. 

Cliff Jumper wrote:

You can ignore and not believe in the Catholic Church, the Apostles, the writings of the Saints and Fathers, Deposit of the Faith, and proven historical foundations of the Church. This would be choosing ignorance. If you are going to read and understand the Bible like anything else you should learn about the context, its language, the writers, and the history referenced in it. In other words do not expect the Bible to explain itself and don't expect everything about the Faith to be in the Bible. The Bible itself warns against it as did Christ, and His Church.

I disagree. I believe that asserting as truth what you can't prove is the epitome of ignorance, as it halts all inquiry. This is what the church does. 

Cliff Jumper wrote:

This is obvious in any other secular area, like when reading Shakespeare or Dickens with other aides like Elizabethian dicticonaires, a study of history, etc.

 

But those are works of fiction. By reading Hamlet, do you then assume that in that time ghosts were real? No, but you might think that people were more predisposed to believe that they were in fact visited by ghosts. Much like the bible saying that miracles occurred, I think it was simply more common back then for people to claim (or even think true) that they have indeed experienced miracles in their favour. 

Cliff Jumper wrote:

As to the topic suggestions. You do not have to pick one of them. I merely suggested them, because they are usually sticking points with atheists and many atheists discuss them.

As an aside you are waaaaay off on your understanding of all those topics. I would love to correct you on each one, one at a time. But choose which ever topic you like.
 

Ok. I want evidence of transsubstantiation. 

 

As far as discussion on the other claims, I'm happy to not resort to a softball one. Why is the Catholic Church 100% against all forms of abortion and contraception, and by extension, why does the church consider those two matters to be one and the same? 

 

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.