Why Islam will fail long term.

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Why Islam will fail long term.

Just as women escaped the sexism of Christianity of the west, Islam will face the same fate. Malala and Ayaan are examples of what the future will be for ALL WOMEN. This little girl is yet another example. Watch out Neil Pert you've got some competition.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUAhV8K-v3A

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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All religions will

All religions will eventually fail


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digitalbeachbum wrote:All

digitalbeachbum wrote:

All religions will eventually fail

 

 

                          ...yes, when humanity goes extinct.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

All religions will eventually fail

 

 

                          ...yes, when humanity goes extinct.

Or when enough of the populations dies out and the only people left are rational and free thinkers.

I know the odds are against it.. but it could happen


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digitalbeachbum wrote:All

digitalbeachbum wrote:

All religions will eventually fail

I think that religion will keep devolving/evolving and changing to the point that it will be a long way from their original premise.

For instance, I was noticing in one of the newspapers that I read, that the Catholic Church (which has already acknowledged the existence of evolution) is now trying to tackle other social issues that are prevalent today like same sex marriage and such.

Traditions are an illusion of permanence and whether religions like it or not, they are going to have to make concessions in the coming years or face a major decline.

Already the new meme that seems to be in use these days is " spiritual but not religious" which slightly irritates me for some reason. But what that boils down to is people that want to believe in a god without the trappings of a religion.

The churches may not be nowhere near the end of everything, but I would say that as time progresses they are going to keep facing losses.

I think the same will eventually be true for Islam. Now while I do not see their fanaticism waning any time soon, already with the advent of those who speak out or ridiculous comedies like "The Little Mosque" which I will not watch because I detest comedies in general, seem to hint that it might be a little more frayed at its core than it would be willing to admit. Take these recent cases of women driving cars to protest and such, I don't think that would have happened a mere decade ago.

While much of Islam has a totalitarian stranglehold on its home countries, it is also beset by infighting, uprisings and such. So I would be willing to possibly speculate that Islam is nowhere near as powerful as it perpetuates itself to be.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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we cannot pinpoint any time

we cannot pinpoint any time in human history when we've lived without religion of some sort.  just as the human mind is incredibly elastic and adaptable, so religion (a product of the human mind) is incredibly elastic and adaptable.  read mircea eliade if you want to find that presented in considerable detail.

the only way to fix humanity's problems is to end humanity, folks.  call me pessimistic, but so far all of history has borne me out on that.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote: the only way

iwbiek wrote:

 

the only way to fix humanity's problems is to end humanity, folks. 

 

                                                     homines morbos   ( ie, "humans are a disease" )

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 

 

                                                     homines morbos   ( ie, "humans are a disease" )

 

you got that right...

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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digitalbeachbum wrote:All

digitalbeachbum wrote:

All religions will eventually fail

Agreed, but the Vatican is trying to extend itself by catching up with changing times. Islam in the east will self destruct with all it's tribalism and sexism.

But ultimately you are right in any case. It is just a matter of time before the religion 500 years from now, if it still exists will not look the same, or it will be completely scrapped.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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iwbiek wrote:we cannot

iwbiek wrote:

we cannot pinpoint any time in human history when we've lived without religion of some sort.  just as the human mind is incredibly elastic and adaptable, so religion (a product of the human mind) is incredibly elastic and adaptable.  read mircea eliade if you want to find that presented in considerable detail.

the only way to fix humanity's problems is to end humanity, folks.  call me pessimistic, but so far all of history has borne me out on that.

So? Does that mean we should allow superstition taboos? I am really glad Galileo bothered to tell the truth and look how long it took a fucking club of superstition to say "oops my bad".

Screw your pessimism. You want to bitch about me and my blasphemy of religion and yet you want the end like they do?

The end will happen and that is a "no fucking shit". But in the meantime I am going to spend my life, even if I fail, trying to pull humanity's head out of it's ass so our ride can be extended, even if it wont be forever.

Life sucks sometimes and bad happens and humans can be cruel. But we also do good things too.

Welcome to reality Ibwiek.

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:You want to

Brian37 wrote:

You want to bitch about me and my blasphemy of religion and yet you want the end like they do?

why do you keep insisting it's about your "blasphemy," you stupid shit?  i've explained to you time and time again the problem i have with you, yet you KEEP COMING BACK to this "blasphemy" load of shit.

blaspheme all you want, dickface!  here, i'll do it for you!  fuck god, fuck christ, fuck allah, fuck shiva, fuck all the gods and buddhas, fornicate the dalai lama with an iron stick, muhammad was a pedo, and so was gandhi.  there.  I HAVE NO FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT.

are you developmentally disabled?

are you dyslexic?

are you dysgraphic?

do you have an IQ lower than 60?

because i've actually taught students in each of those categories, and all of them could process information better than you.

WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE POINTS, EVEN AFTER THEY'RE PRESENTED TO YOU 30 FUCKING TIMES????  fucking stupid motherfucker...

 

Brian37 wrote:

Welcome to reality Ibwiek.

you're the one living for an ideal imaginary world that has never existed and never will.  i live in reality.

and don't ever capitalize my fucking name.  and don't write it if you can't spell it.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:WHY CAN'T YOU

iwbiek wrote:

WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE POINTS, EVEN AFTER THEY'RE PRESENTED TO YOU 30 FUCKING TIMES????

Check out the book The Authoritarians, by Bob Altemeyer. There's a link on his website to a full PDF version that's available for anyone to read for free. If you do a Google search on "the authoritarians", it should be the first or second result. Brian's posts often strongly remind me of the people Altemeyer calls "authoritarian followers".

 


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              Ironic that Brian the atheist spends most of his time on this forum at war with other atheists.  I'm sure the significance is lost on him.  Weird.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

All religions will eventually fail

 

 

                          ...yes, when humanity goes extinct.

Or when enough of the populations dies out and the only people left are rational and free thinkers.

I know the odds are against it.. but it could happen

Far more likely that the few who survive are religious zealots. Or will become so, because with the death of civilisation comes the return of mystery and unanswerable questions en masse. Fear of the unknown, a need for discipline, and threats on the horizon are breeding grounds for religion. Freethinking and logic become luxuries that can't be afforded.

But humanity isn't a disease. We wouldn't be capable of recognising that we're making a mess if we were that bad.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote: But humanity

Vastet wrote:
But humanity isn't a disease. We wouldn't be capable of recognising that we're making a mess if we were that bad.

 

Well "disease" is simply a poetic metaphor that accurately expresses my disdain for my own species.  It's an artistic phrase that successfully expresses my meaning.  In my experience the vast majority of humanity are selfish, narcissistic and often vicious.  It's similar to saying that religion is a disease, it's just a word picture and everyone is free to either accept or reject that comparison.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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We are to a degree, but we

We are to a degree, but we are also selfless and compassionate and generous to a degree. There's never been a poll or study on the numbers, but I suspect they are rather equal.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

You want to bitch about me and my blasphemy of religion and yet you want the end like they do?

why do you keep insisting it's about your "blasphemy," you stupid shit?  i've explained to you time and time again the problem i have with you, yet you KEEP COMING BACK to this "blasphemy" load of shit.

blaspheme all you want, dickface!  here, i'll do it for you!  fuck god, fuck christ, fuck allah, fuck shiva, fuck all the gods and buddhas, fornicate the dalai lama with an iron stick, muhammad was a pedo, and so was gandhi.  there.  I HAVE NO FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT.

are you developmentally disabled?

are you dyslexic?

are you dysgraphic?

do you have an IQ lower than 60?

because i've actually taught students in each of those categories, and all of them could process information better than you.

WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE POINTS, EVEN AFTER THEY'RE PRESENTED TO YOU 30 FUCKING TIMES????  fucking stupid motherfucker...

 

Brian37 wrote:

Welcome to reality Ibwiek.

you're the one living for an ideal imaginary world that has never existed and never will.  i live in reality.

and don't ever capitalize my fucking name.  and don't write it if you can't spell it.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Vastet wrote:We are to a

Vastet wrote:
We are to a degree, but we are also selfless and compassionate and generous to a degree.

  

       Yes, to a degree you are correct.  Whether the degree of good to bad among humanity is acceptable to me or not is a matter of opinion.  My natural inclination is to trust people but personal experience combined with observation of humans in general has taught me that the vast majority should be approached with everything from caution to outright suspicion.  

 A metaphor from history that I identify with comes from reading about the American war in Viet Nam.  When many of our young, inexperienced soldiers were sent to aid the south Vietnamese they were perhaps mostly neutral as to their feelings toward them. They certainly didn't regard them as the enemy, initially.

  Later when the American soldiers began to discover after firefights that many of the South Vietnamese civilians who were being friendly with them during the day were also the same people who were trying to kill them at night ( as the Viet Cong ) the Americans refused to trust any of them.   There was simply no way to vet the civilians as to who was VC or not so the soldiers fell back upon the only other option available to them ...they withdrew their trust and replaced it with overt suspicion. 

 The soldiers' need to survive trumped all other issues and if trusting no one who was Vietnamese accomplished that goal then so be it.

 

vastet wrote:
There's never been a poll or study on the numbers, but I suspect they are rather equal.

 

     Well, if your assessment is correct and roughly 50 percent of humanity is not worthy of trust then those odds are all I need to rationally justify maintaining vigilance because that's an unacceptably large percentage of potential enemies.  

 To me that's like playing an even more dangerous game of Russian Roulette except that with your projected 50 / 50 odds instead of there only being one cartridge in the the six shot revolver, now their are three cartridges waiting to blow your head off.  Sorry, but I like those odds even less.

 

 

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

You want to bitch about me and my blasphemy of religion and yet you want the end like they do?

why do you keep insisting it's about your "blasphemy," you stupid shit?  i've explained to you time and time again the problem i have with you, yet you KEEP COMING BACK to this "blasphemy" load of shit.

blaspheme all you want, dickface!  here, i'll do it for you!  fuck god, fuck christ, fuck allah, fuck shiva, fuck all the gods and buddhas, fornicate the dalai lama with an iron stick, muhammad was a pedo, and so was gandhi.  there.  I HAVE NO FUCKING PROBLEM WITH THAT.

are you developmentally disabled?

are you dyslexic?

are you dysgraphic?

do you have an IQ lower than 60?

because i've actually taught students in each of those categories, and all of them could process information better than you.

WHY CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND SIMPLE POINTS, EVEN AFTER THEY'RE PRESENTED TO YOU 30 FUCKING TIMES????  fucking stupid motherfucker...

 

Brian37 wrote:

Welcome to reality Ibwiek.

you're the one living for an ideal imaginary world that has never existed and never will.  i live in reality.

and don't ever capitalize my fucking name.  and don't write it if you can't spell it.

No,  for a "teacher" it would seem you have the problem with reading comprehension. Not agreeing with my OP does not mean I am delusional. Now point out to me where I have ever said you can rid the world of religion, when you can show me in ANY post ever that that is my goal, I will shut up. But since I am not saying that is my goal maybe you need to pull your head out of your own ass.

I said it was poison. Just because I recognize that it will exist does not mean I want it affecting me. You are in total denial that religion DOES affect politics and DOES create global conflict.

If you don't treat it as dangerous, just because of our natural human ability to get along with others, you leave that door open long term for that "getting along" to be harmed and have a potential power above you that may not agree with your rights.

Sunnis and Shiites oppress each other in the east.  Muslims threaten Christians and atheists all the time. And even here in the states women's rights are still under assault from our right wing Christian nuts. How you deny that reality is astounding.

 

I think your problem is geography. I think you need to live in a place where opening your mouth in dissent can get you beaten up, arrested or murdered by the state.

 

Now READ AND KEEP REPEATING THE READING IF YOU NEED TO,

 

MY MOTHER IS CATHOLIC. MY CO WORKERS ARE RELIGIOUS. If you want to marry into my family of whatever religion, YOU CAN. If you are my kid and decide you want to become part of a religion YOU CAN. Does not mean I wont love you. It also does not mean I have to like everything you do or believe.

 

I am still not going to treat ANY religion as placid considering humanity has always proven it can be quite destructive in using it to oppress others.

 

I am capable of loving people without liking everything that comes out of their mouths.

 

If that is not clear enough for you that is your baggage, not mine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:when you can

Brian37 wrote:

when you can show me in ANY post ever that that is my goal, I will shut up. But since I am not saying that is my goal maybe you need to pull your head out of your own ass.

point me to ANY post ever where i say that is your goal.  i have said it's impossible, but i've never said it's your goal.  as far as i can tell, you have no goal.  you've certainly never offered any constructive suggestions with all the shrill pissing and moaning you do about every conceivable issue.

never mind the fact that i said NOTHING EVEN APPROACHING THAT ANYWHERE IN THE POST YOU'RE RESPONDING TO.  i say "never mind" because i think everybody expects non sequiturs of you by now.

Brian37 wrote:

You are in total denial that religion DOES affect politics and DOES create global conflict.

and your evidence for this naked assertion is what?  me saying you're full of shit?  do you identify yourself so completely with the atheist movement that my calling your bullshit automatically makes me a co-conspirator with fanatical theists everywhere?

Brian37 wrote:
 

I think your problem is geography. I think you need to live in a place where opening your mouth in dissent can get you beaten up, arrested or murdered by the state.

wow, and you do, huh?  i've travelled a quarter of the fucking world.  as far as i can tell, you've never gotten out from behind your dishwater in fucking virginia.

btw, there are quite a few states like those you mentioned whose official ideological position is atheistic.  in other words, history has shown us that religion can be an excuse for oppression, but there is no conclusive evidence it's a prime motivator.  if you really think a world without religion (SPEAKING HYPOTHETICALLY, NOT IDENTIFYING YOUR "GOAL," SO SAVE IT) would be a world without bloody dictatorships, or even a world with fewer bloody dictatorships, you're an even bigger idiot than i thought.

oh wait, that's right, anytime a leader manipulates the people you call that "religion."  wow.  i can win arguments too if i change the meanings of words until they're practically unrecognizable.

 

Brian37 wrote:

Now READ AND KEEP REPEATING THE READING IF YOU NEED TO,

 

MY MOTHER IS CATHOLIC. MY CO WORKERS ARE RELIGIOUS. If you want to marry into my family of whatever religion, YOU CAN. If you are my kid and decide you want to become part of a religion YOU CAN. Does not mean I wont love you. It also does not mean I have to like everything you do or believe.

 

i'm reading it.

i'm re-reading it.

i'm re-reading it.

i'm comprehending it perfectly.

i'm just not seeing what is has to do with ANY FUCKING POINT I'VE EVER MADE TO YOU OR ABOUT YOU.

oh, that's right, i'm talking to brian.  i almost fell back into the trap of expecting a logical progression.

just drop it.  you're embarrassing both of us.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

when you can show me in ANY post ever that that is my goal, I will shut up. But since I am not saying that is my goal maybe you need to pull your head out of your own ass.

point me to ANY post ever where i say that is your goal.  i have said it's impossible, but i've never said it's your goal.  as far as i can tell, you have no goal.  you've certainly never offered any constructive suggestions with all the shrill pissing and moaning you do about every conceivable issue.

never mind the fact that i said NOTHING EVEN APPROACHING THAT ANYWHERE IN THE POST YOU'RE RESPONDING TO.  i say "never mind" because i think everybody expects non sequiturs of you by now.

Brian37 wrote:

You are in total denial that religion DOES affect politics and DOES create global conflict.

and your evidence for this naked assertion is what?  me saying you're full of shit?  do you identify yourself so completely with the atheist movement that my calling your bullshit automatically makes me a co-conspirator with fanatical theists everywhere?

Brian37 wrote:
 

I think your problem is geography. I think you need to live in a place where opening your mouth in dissent can get you beaten up, arrested or murdered by the state.

wow, and you do, huh?  i've travelled a quarter of the fucking world.  as far as i can tell, you've never gotten out from behind your dishwater in fucking virginia.

btw, there are quite a few states like those you mentioned whose official ideological position is atheistic.  in other words, history has shown us that religion can be an excuse for oppression, but there is no conclusive evidence it's a prime motivator.  if you really think a world without religion (SPEAKING HYPOTHETICALLY, NOT IDENTIFYING YOUR "GOAL," SO SAVE IT) would be a world without bloody dictatorships, or even a world with fewer bloody dictatorships, you're an even bigger idiot than i thought.

oh wait, that's right, anytime a leader manipulates the people you call that "religion."  wow.  i can win arguments too if i change the meanings of words until they're practically unrecognizable.

 

Brian37 wrote:

Now READ AND KEEP REPEATING THE READING IF YOU NEED TO,

 

MY MOTHER IS CATHOLIC. MY CO WORKERS ARE RELIGIOUS. If you want to marry into my family of whatever religion, YOU CAN. If you are my kid and decide you want to become part of a religion YOU CAN. Does not mean I wont love you. It also does not mean I have to like everything you do or believe.

 

i'm reading it.

i'm re-reading it.

i'm re-reading it.

i'm comprehending it perfectly.

i'm just not seeing what is has to do with ANY FUCKING POINT I'VE EVER MADE TO YOU OR ABOUT YOU.

oh, that's right, i'm talking to brian.  i almost fell back into the trap of expecting a logical progression.

just drop it.  you're embarrassing both of us.

 

Um actually grew up in Northern Va and DC area so I am quite used to diversity. Secondly  I also have a college degree. Third fuck you putting honest work down btw.

 

I have been all over the United States, from Miami to Tampa, Atlanta, Phoenix,  to NYC to Philly, Chicago, LA, San Fransisco, and Europe France and and Switzerland.  I have also been to Japan.

 

Most of that travel was as a kid and teen. The AZ was to meet my biological family. Japan was when I was married and the economy didn't suck so bad. 

 

And please keep in mind this lowly dishwasher supports teachers unions and teachers having better pay.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote: Um actually

Brian37 wrote:

 

Um actually grew up in Northern Va and DC area so I am quite used to diversity....( snip )... mind this lowly dishwasher supports teachers unions and teachers having better pay.

 

 

 

 

 

                              Blah blah blah, non of that stuff really matters if you don't own guns.   Buy a gun and your life will start to have real meaning.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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Oh I'd never suggest

Oh I'd never suggest randomly trusting people to do even simple things. But I trust the species itself to overcome its own shortcomings (even if it never eliminates them). It always has before. It just takes a long ass time.

Love your new avatar btw. I got a chuckle.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Brian37 wrote: Um actually

Brian37 wrote:

 

Um actually grew up in Northern Va and DC area so I am quite used to diversity. Secondly  I also have a college degree. Third fuck you putting honest work down btw.

a. oh yeah, DC and Northern VA, so you know all about government oppression first-hand...

b. never said you didn't.

c. not putting the work down, brian.  i'm putting YOU down.  as usual, you're so allergic to criticism you try to deflect it onto anything else.  it's always me knocking atheism or knocking manual labor, but nothing i ever say could possibly apply to you...

i don't give a shit how you make a living.  my father is a construction worker and my mother taught kindergarten in eastern kentucky.  what DOES piss me off is when a dishwasher in middle america tries to tell me i need to experience some time in oppressive societies, as if you're some fucking dissident, as if you have any more fucking idea what that's like than i do.  you don't.

Brian37 wrote:

And please keep in mind this lowly dishwasher supports teachers unions and teachers having better pay.

and that affects me how?  i don't teach in the US, never have, never will.  and everything i've ever read about the american teachers' union gives me the impression that it's one of the most corrupt out there, so i don't know that i would support it.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

Um actually grew up in Northern Va and DC area so I am quite used to diversity. Secondly  I also have a college degree. Third fuck you putting honest work down btw.

a. oh yeah, DC and Northern VA, so you know all about government oppression first-hand...

b. never said you didn't.

c. not putting the work down, brian.  i'm putting YOU down.  as usual, you're so allergic to criticism you try to deflect it onto anything else.  it's always me knocking atheism or knocking manual labor, but nothing i ever say could possibly apply to you...

i don't give a shit how you make a living.  my father is a construction worker and my mother taught kindergarten in eastern kentucky.  what DOES piss me off is when a dishwasher in middle america tries to tell me i need to experience some time in oppressive societies, as if you're some fucking dissident, as if you have any more fucking idea what that's like than i do.  you don't.

Brian37 wrote:

And please keep in mind this lowly dishwasher supports teachers unions and teachers having better pay.

and that affects me how?  i don't teach in the US, never have, never will.  and everything i've ever read about the american teachers' union gives me the impression that it's one of the most corrupt out there, so i don't know that i would support it.

For someone who says they are done with me you certainly are doing a bad job.

 

Oh yea someone making 30-50k has the same money as Corporate America to make states "right to fuck the employee states".  Does Fox News exist in Canada?

No, our economy SUCKS because of big banks, and Wall Mart and McDonalds and their race to the bottom for slave wages.

You don't have our problems because your government has a better grip on wages and has a better output on education. We lack investment here and the biggest part of that is investment in poor communities and investment in education.

 

Unions are not the problem. Corporate welfare is.

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:You don't have

Brian37 wrote:

You don't have our problems because your government has a better grip on wages and has a better output on education. We lack investment here and the biggest part of that is investment in poor communities and investment in education. 

Do you know which country iwbiek lives in? Hint: it isn't Canada.

And yeah, the sole problem is we don't spend enough on education. Just throwing money at a problem fixes everything...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/oecd-education-report_n_3496875.html

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Do you

Beyond Saving wrote:

Do you know which country iwbiek lives in? Hint: it isn't Canada.

And yeah, the sole problem is we don't spend enough on education. Just throwing money at a problem fixes everything...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/oecd-education-report_n_3496875.html

 

That is rather like the problem that is plaguing my city. Every week there is some new disgrace on the news and the city council keeps acting like pouring funds into the school system is solving the problem.

Only thing is, they have been pouring cash into it since I have been living here and conditions have worsened if anything.?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Beyond Saving wrote: Do you

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Do you know which country iwbiek lives in? Hint: it isn't Canada.

yeah, i've never even been near canada.  the farthest north i've ever been is o'hare airport.

yet i knew he lived in virginia.  and since i joined this board in 2008, i know i've said where i live at least as many times as he's said where he lives, maybe even more.

yet more proof of his lack of attention to people's posts.

BRIAN,

i live in a post-communist country.  my parents-in-law watched soviet tanks roll in in 1968, crushing the tiny flowers of freedom of expression that had just started to bloom.  my wife can remember greeting her primary school teacher with "cest praci" ("glory to work" ).  my brother- and sister-in-law both went to pioneer camp.  just like you, i've never experienced oppression first-hand, but i'm much closer to its lasting effects than you are.

yes, the country i call home has universal, compulsory healthcare, and it's great.  but if you think corporations don't run the show even here, forget about it.  if it weren't for a huge branch of US steel, my city would not be nearly as nice as it is.  as much as corporations irritate me, i'd rather have them running the show here than gustav husak, and i say that as a marxist.

oh, it also has a flat tax rate, and that's great too.  i'd damn sure rather pay taxes here than back home in the states (i've done both).

maybe by now a couple google searches have reminded you where i live...

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Beyond Saving

iwbiek wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Do you know which country iwbiek lives in? Hint: it isn't Canada.

yeah, i've never even been near canada.  the farthest north i've ever been is o'hare airport.

yet i knew he lived in virginia.  and since i joined this board in 2008, i know i've said where i live at least as many times as he's said where he lives, maybe even more.

yet more proof of his lack of attention to people's posts.

BRIAN,

i live in a post-communist country.  my parents-in-law watched soviet tanks roll in in 1968, crushing the tiny flowers of freedom of expression that had just started to bloom.  my wife can remember greeting her primary school teacher with "cest praci" ("glory to work" ).  my brother- and sister-in-law both went to pioneer camp.  just like you, i've never experienced oppression first-hand, but i'm much closer to its lasting effects than you are.

yes, the country i call home has universal, compulsory healthcare, and it's great.  but if you think corporations don't run the show even here, forget about it.  if it weren't for a huge branch of US steel, my city would not be nearly as nice as it is.  as much as corporations irritate me, i'd rather have them running the show here than gustav husak, and i say that as a marxist.

oh, it also has a flat tax rate, and that's great too.  i'd damn sure rather pay taxes here than back home in the states (i've done both).

maybe by now a couple google searches have reminded you where i live...

 

Stop it, holly crap. No one wants to live in a Soviet Union like state. Where the fuck you get that from is absurd. Saying the pay gap is lopsided and Corporate America is getting too many freebies in the form of tax cuts does not mean I want to live in a nanny state.

 

You look at the pay gap on average in Europe, Canada and Japan it is nothing compared to the United States.

 

What built the middle class after WW2 was INVESTMENT, in highways, and damns and electrical grids , high tax rate on the rich and cheap higher education. Ratio wise also the gap was nowhere as big as it is now.

 

I have run into uber left people who'd love to end the free market and private business ownership. I AM NOT ONE OF THEM. I would be more than happy to take the keys from my owner. What I would not do is starve my employees to death just to get tax breaks like he does. The prior owners didn't do that. So don't accuse me of hating all wealth.

 

If the bulk of big business were like COSTCO, and Moo Cluck Moo, our economy would NOT be in the mess it is in.

 

You want less government? That can be obtained by the top doing the right thing. There is a huge difference between "cant" and "don't want to".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:iwbiek

Brian37 wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Do you know which country iwbiek lives in? Hint: it isn't Canada.

yeah, i've never even been near canada.  the farthest north i've ever been is o'hare airport.

yet i knew he lived in virginia.  and since i joined this board in 2008, i know i've said where i live at least as many times as he's said where he lives, maybe even more.

yet more proof of his lack of attention to people's posts.

BRIAN,

i live in a post-communist country.  my parents-in-law watched soviet tanks roll in in 1968, crushing the tiny flowers of freedom of expression that had just started to bloom.  my wife can remember greeting her primary school teacher with "cest praci" ("glory to work" ).  my brother- and sister-in-law both went to pioneer camp.  just like you, i've never experienced oppression first-hand, but i'm much closer to its lasting effects than you are.

yes, the country i call home has universal, compulsory healthcare, and it's great.  but if you think corporations don't run the show even here, forget about it.  if it weren't for a huge branch of US steel, my city would not be nearly as nice as it is.  as much as corporations irritate me, i'd rather have them running the show here than gustav husak, and i say that as a marxist.

oh, it also has a flat tax rate, and that's great too.  i'd damn sure rather pay taxes here than back home in the states (i've done both).

maybe by now a couple google searches have reminded you where i live...

 

Stop it, holly crap. No one wants to live in a Soviet Union like state. Where the fuck you get that from is absurd. Saying the pay gap is lopsided and Corporate America is getting too many freebies in the form of tax cuts does not mean I want to live in a nanny state.

 

You look at the pay gap on average in Europe, Canada and Japan it is nothing compared to the United States.

 

What built the middle class after WW2 was INVESTMENT, in highways, and damns and electrical grids , high tax rate on the rich and cheap higher education. Ratio wise also the gap was nowhere as big as it is now.

 

I have run into uber left people who'd love to end the free market and private business ownership. I AM NOT ONE OF THEM. I would be more than happy to take the keys from my owner. What I would not do is starve my employees to death just to get tax breaks like he does. The prior owners didn't do that. So don't accuse me of hating all wealth.

 

If the bulk of big business were like COSTCO, and Moo Cluck Moo, our economy would NOT be in the mess it is in.

 

You want less government? That can be obtained by the top doing the right thing. There is a huge difference between "cant" and "don't want to".

 

And another post not read.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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You must be having a blast.

You must be having a blast. You weathered the storm of Brian37's idiocy for a few years. And now he's alienating 99% of the site, taking hits from all sides. I think maybe you broke him. Now all he can do is laughably compare you to Ayn. A comparison that only holds water in his fictional little world.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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  Yes, there is a strange

  Yes, there is a strange disconnect within Brian's mind.  He only hears what he want's to hear and therefore responds inappropriately.     In the same vein, could you imagine Brian trying to put the moves on some female who didn't want his advances ?  Every time she slapped his face he would be unable to understand why and would just keep pawing at her.  He would never figure it out.

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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iwbiek wrote:i live in a

iwbiek wrote:

i live in a post-communist country.  my parents-in-law watched soviet tanks roll in in 1968, crushing the tiny flowers of freedom of expression that had just started to bloom.  my wife can remember greeting her primary school teacher with "cest praci" ("glory to work" ).  my brother- and sister-in-law both went to pioneer camp.  just like you, i've never experienced oppression first-hand, but i'm much closer to its lasting effects than you are.

yes, the country i call home has universal, compulsory healthcare, and it's great.  but if you think corporations don't run the show even here, forget about it.  if it weren't for a huge branch of US steel, my city would not be nearly as nice as it is.  as much as corporations irritate me, i'd rather have them running the show here than gustav husak, and i say that as a marxist.

Speaking of which, as a Marxist, what is your opinion on Communist rule and on the Soviet Union ? In regards to whether it was a success, failure or such.

Here is why I ask :

As I have stated on here before, I belong to a Russian type group on Facebook and have actually gotten to be friends with a few of them.

I finally just HAD to ask this question on there one night about "What was life really like in the Soviet Union?"

Well, this one younger person had me talk to her parents and grandparents on the skype (both who spoke very good English, so I was lucky).

Anyway, they had quite a number of fondly remembered pros. Free colleges, housing and such. And they also had a number of cons. Of course, they also told me that it depends on who you ask. (Grandparents lived under the Stalin regime) . But, while both sets of people had some critical things to say about it, they also seemed to not have that much of a problem with it in comparison to some things present today. (Although they seemed to be very respectful of Putin and the direction of a democracy, but not quite in the sense that we have here) there were certain things that I could not help but notice. Like one of the older ones stated : "Yeah sure, we can travel out of the country if we want to without papers these days and one does not need to be a Party member on some sort of business to gain the freedom to do so, but hell, who in the hell can afford to do so at the moment".

Like most things, there is no clear cut answer about life under it one way or the other. However, I was just wondering what your experiences, as an American in a post communist country would be and how that relates to being a Marxist ?

Another reason I ask, is that I was informed that while there are papers out there like :"Russia Beyond the HEadlines" that I subscribe to, I am still getting the opinion of an American perspective versus a Russian perspective. So, I thought an American perspective from one who is actually in Eastern Europe might shed some light on the situation.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

 

Speaking of which, as a Marxist, what is your opinion on Communist rule and on the Soviet Union ? In regards to whether it was a success, failure or such.

Here is why I ask :

As I have stated on here before, I belong to a Russian type group on Facebook and have actually gotten to be friends with a few of them.

I finally just HAD to ask this question on there one night about "What was life really like in the Soviet Union?"

Well, this one younger person had me talk to her parents and grandparents on the skype (both who spoke very good English, so I was lucky).

Anyway, they had quite a number of fondly remembered pros. Free colleges, housing and such. And they also had a number of cons. Of course, they also told me that it depends on who you ask. (Grandparents lived under the Stalin regime) . But, while both sets of people had some critical things to say about it, they also seemed to not have that much of a problem with it in comparison to some things present today. (Although they seemed to be very respectful of Putin and the direction of a democracy, but not quite in the sense that we have here) there were certain things that I could not help but notice. Like one of the older ones stated : "Yeah sure, we can travel out of the country if we want to without papers these days and one does not need to be a Party member on some sort of business to gain the freedom to do so, but hell, who in the hell can afford to do so at the moment".

Like most things, there is no clear cut answer about life under it one way or the other. However, I was just wondering what your experiences, as an American in a post communist country would be and how that relates to being a Marxist ?

Another reason I ask, is that I was informed that while there are papers out there like :"Russia Beyond the HEadlines" that I subscribe to, I am still getting the opinion of an American perspective versus a Russian perspective. So, I thought an American perspective from one who is actually in Eastern Europe might shed some light on the situation.

 

the answers you got from your russian friends are also typical of czechs and slovaks.  the fact of the matter is, the vast majority of people had no sense of ideological conflict (despite the official press's hamfisted efforts to instill that in them), nor that they were "living history."  like most folks, they just went through everyday life and didn't think too much about it.

first of all, like most ideological positions, what makes someone a "marxist" depends on who you ask.  with me, it primarily means taking a materialistic view of history, wherein economic and political factors, especially technological advances in production, are the prime movers of human development: religions, political ideologies, even things like fashion trends, are all at base symptoms of a society's objective, material circumstances at any given time.  i disagree with marxists like lenin and the young sidney hook who argue that being a marxist necessarily entails always taking a revolutionary stance against the rule of the bourgeoisie.  for example, i think europe is best left alone at the present time, to pursue its own peculiar developments: developments which, quite frankly, marx was unable to foresee.  now, on the other hand, if there were to be a proletarian revolution in the united states tomorrow--well, put me on a plane and have my dad's .22-.270 waiting for me when i get off.  i want to be among the first to stroll into the capitol in fatigues with that sucker slung over my shoulder, ready to expropriate everything in sight, and sit on any revolutionary tribunal they'll let me sit on.  neither bush nor obama would fare too well before me.  i think a soviet-style revolution in the US could only do the world good.

i'm also a trotskyist in terms of endorsing the idea of "permanent revolution," i.e., that the dictatorship of the proletariat must carry its work to its logical conclusion: a worldwide revolution.  it has to be all or nothing, at least among the developed powers.  stalin's great error (i use that term loosely, since he knew exactly what he was doing; he never fumbled in his goals) was insisting on "socialism in one country."  this doomed the soviet union from the start.  no socialist country can truly exist as socialist at the mercy of the global market, and no single country can truly be self-sufficient, because of the distribution of the earth's resources if for no other reason, so the only option is to eliminate the world market as it is.

as for the soviet system being a failure or not, that's another subjective question.  i will say this: the fact that the system "collapsed" is no necessary indicator of failure.  all systems will "collapse"--i.e. cease to exist as they are--eventually.  the end of the soviet union, the warsaw pact, etc., was not a catastrophic event, anymore than the fall of rome (or the break-up of czechoslovakia, for that matter).  the incredible successes of the soviet system in turning a backward, fanatically religious empire that was the last truly feudal society in europe into an industrialized world power in an unbelievably short amount of time cannot be disputed.  neither can the human cost, but history invariably shows us that great leaps require great sacrifices.  the question is, is it worth it?  that's a question that can never be answered definitively for every situation.

my own personal feelings about the soviet system are mixed, and anyone who doesn't have mixed feelings about it just flat out doesn't know enough about it.  however, i will say this: had i been in petrograd in 1917, among the revolutionary workers and the kronstadt sailors, well...there's no question in my mind whom i would have stood with.

i hope that answers your question.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:  i hope that

iwbiek wrote:

 

 

i hope that answers your question.

That does cover a lot of ground.

Now I am going to give away some of my ignorance that I can not quite have puzzled out.

Why all the hatred at Trotsky from some of the Communist factions of today ? ( I do not know about groups in Russia per se) but the few Communist factions that I have browsed their websites to get a better understanding of it either idolize Trotsky or hate him,

Thus far, Trotsky seemed like a very well educated man and prolific in his ideas.

But my knowledge of Communism is quite limited at the moment.

Not surprisingly (according to the conversations) in spite of all that happened, many older generation Russians do not necessarily by default look at Stalin as all of that evil a person. They will acknowledge some of the things he did, but I seemed to get a sense, at least from the elderly people and their notion of how most older Russians seem to speak of him) that he is still kind of viewed as the guy that gave Adolf Hitler a hard core kick in the ass.

Perhaps that has something to so with it. I don't know.

I too am not so naive as to suggest that there might be a straight answer at all, but the more I know the better. I do know that the local Russians, (both the young and the old) seem to be more preoccupied with the maintenance of order, when it comes to democracy, than really liberty per se.

In other words, their prime concern is really not so much about so-called civil liberties as actual order. Now that is just the feeling that I got from the conversations.

But two or three hour and half long conversations are hardly enough to constitute me a spokesperson of Russian culture. Smiling

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:Why

harleysportster wrote:

Why all the hatred at Trotsky from some of the Communist factions of today ? ( I do not know about groups in Russia per se) but the few Communist factions that I have browsed their websites to get a better understanding of it either idolize Trotsky or hate him,

the same reason why christians bother to teach entire courses debunking heresies that haven't existed in over a millennium (montanism, marcionism, donatism, sabellianism, etc.): solidarity with tradition and centuries of intellectual and emotional investment.  it all traces back to the personal animosity between stalin and trotsky.  when stalin condemned trotsky and invented the "trotskyist conspiracy" out of thin air, he was just playing power politics.  trotsky's views were no more controversial than stalin's, and stalin even passed many of them off as his own after his power was secure: de-kulakization, emphasis on heavy industry--these sorts of things were advocated by trotsky and ridiculed by stalin while lenin was advocating NEP and moderation in dealing with peasants and small entrepeneurs.

even with trotsky safely impotent in exile (his assassination was unnecessary; he never would have been able to set foot in the soviet union again), it served stalin's purpose to raise up the specter of an international organization of "trotskyist" saboteurs, an organization that never existed, whenever he needed an excuse to eliminate some people.  the fact that those condemned for being members of this fictional massive conspiracy actually confessed to it in show trials didn't help matters.  these confessions were often made voluntarily, out of a grotesque sense of communist solidarity (i.e. it was better for the party for the accused to confess to an untruth than insist the party was wrong).  all over the world, those communist parties allied with the CPSU were strongly encouraged to purge their own ranks of "trotskyists," which they did.  shit, even years after stalin's death, the vietnamese communist party was brutally massacring hundreds of "trotskyists" in vietnam--a total absurdity!

anyway, you can see how deep a hole worldwide communism has dug itself into on the trotskyist issue.  to admit trotsky was wronged, even today, would mean far more ideological backpedalling than any party anywhere is willing to do.  even during perestroika, even on the eve of the break-up of the soviet union, there was never any serious talk of rehabilitating trotsky.  it was just too much to ask.  even as late as 2005, when fidel castro's autobiography was published, castro's interviewer in the book asks him if one couldn't consider che a trotskyist of sorts, and castro is very quick to squash that idea.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:the same reason

iwbiek wrote:

the same reason why christians bother to teach entire courses debunking heresies that haven't existed in over a millennium (montanism, marcionism, donatism, sabellianism, etc.): solidarity with tradition and centuries of intellectual and emotional investment.  it all traces back to the personal animosity between stalin and trotsky.  when stalin condemned trotsky and invented the "trotskyist conspiracy" out of thin air, he was just playing power politics.  trotsky's views were no more controversial than stalin's, and stalin even passed many of them off as his own after his power was secure: de-kulakization, emphasis on heavy industry--these sorts of things were advocated by trotsky and ridiculed by stalin while lenin was advocating NEP and moderation in dealing with peasants and small entrepeneurs.

Some of that has been mentioned in Laquer's Stalin and in Three Who Made a Revolution. (Although Lacquer seemed to be very critical of Trotsky as a person and really just anti-communist in general. In fact, while Lacquer's Stalin does provide in depth study of Stalin, this just seemed to me to be a bit of an Anti-soviet book that was written during the height of glasnost. But that is just my opinion.

iwbiek wrote:

even with trotsky safely impotent in exile (his assassination was unnecessary; he never would have been able to set foot in the soviet union again), it served stalin's purpose to raise up the specter of an international organization of "trotskyist" saboteurs, an organization that never existed, whenever he needed an excuse to eliminate some people.  the fact that those condemned for being members of this fictional massive conspiracy actually confessed to it in show trials didn't help matters.  these confessions were often made voluntarily, out of a grotesque sense of communist solidarity (i.e. it was better for the party for the accused to confess to an untruth than insist the party was wrong).  all over the world, those communist parties allied with the CPSU were strongly encouraged to purge their own ranks of "trotskyists," which they did.  shit, even years after stalin's death, the vietnamese communist party was brutally massacring hundreds of "trotskyists" in vietnam--a total absurdity!

anyway, you can see how deep a hole worldwide communism has dug itself into on the trotskyist issue.  to admit trotsky was wronged, even today, would mean far more ideological backpedalling than any party anywhere is willing to do.  even during perestroika, even on the eve of the break-up of the soviet union, there was never any serious talk of rehabilitating trotsky.  it was just too much to ask. 

Yep, I think I can see why the animosity is so apparent now. Trotsky was one of the ones that never got the "rehabilitation" under Kruschev or any other.

This makes sense. It is almost like the party would be too embarrassed to admit the mistake.

I know that Lacquer tries to paint a picture as both Lenin and Trotsky being inept, and that the whole revolution was not smart enough to see Stalin for what he "supposedly" was. That is why I am so inclined to dismiss much of the assertions of Lacquer's Stalin.

If Lenin and Trotsky were anything at all, they were not inept nor short-sighted in the slightest.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


EXC
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Brian37 wrote:And please

Brian37 wrote:

And please keep in mind this lowly dishwasher supports teachers unions and teachers having better pay.

For what? So they can train more people to become "lowly dishwashers"? It's a fucking racket, they get paid and get their pensions for what?

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:It's a fucking

EXC wrote:
It's a fucking racket, they get paid and get their pensions for what?

why don't you actually give teaching a try before you say fucking shit like that, asshole?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Mmmmm

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Or when enough of the populations dies out and the only people left are rational and free thinkers.

I know the odds are against it.. but it could happen

It's a nice idea that it might fail but there are so many nongs out there. Still. Islam is sillier and more morally inconsistent than all the other religions. When I get depressed I read the intros on WikiIslam and the Council of Ex Muslims of Britain. Brave people, muslim atheists.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck