Take the intelectual fight to them.
Offline Before I begin. I must insist that believers understand, what I am saying here is not a human rights issue. Every atheist here has to some degree believing family and friends and co workers. No atheist should be in the same utopia mindset to think "if only everyone were atheists". On a planet of 7 billion and in an imperfect species, there is no utopia and we should deal with reality the way it is, not the way we want it to be.
It is ALSO possible for the atheist to value the human struggle, such as Ann Frank, Martin Luther King Jr, and Malala, without believing in the gods they profess. Atheists in the west, for the most part are always on the side of minorities and have had a long history of supporting the rights of minorities.
However, there is a fight going on, and politics and religion are dividing humanity, and all religions are used as weapons to claim moral superiority over others. And there are masses of humans suckered by clearly con artists out of their money over the stupid idea that a utopia is possible at all.
Two of the biggest con artists are cowards and refuse to debate anyone anywhere, and it is up to those of reason to take the VERBAL ONLY, intellectual fight to them.
Here are the facebook pages of Joel Olsteen and Benny Hinn. I invite you to go there and put counter arguments on their pages. You most likely will get deleted, but the more of us that do this, the harder it will be for them to ignore debate.
But not just on facebook. Any media or newspaper website where ANY believer of any religion makes a post, counter their arguments with facts. We wont make religion go away, but when it ignores facts and when it poisons minds and fleeces people out of money, only facts and reason can keep these people on a leash.
https://www.facebook.com/BennyHinnMinistries
https://www.facebook.com/JoelOsteen?rf=106009516105438
And just for shits and giggles, here is Banana man's farcebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/official.Ray.Comfort
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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Nothing about any revolution that goes in either direction is "intellectual", it still amounts to a population reacting to the powers that be. It is mere evolution going on. Step on a population long enough, as soon as it can get a chance, it will challenge the alpha male majority. No different in other mammals.
Both cruelty and compassion WORK in evolution. It is why BOTH dictatorships can work, and why pluralistic societies can work. All a revolution does is shift power.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Really?!? Really???
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
sounds a lot like what hunter s. thompson, one of my all-time heroes, was going for out in colorado.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
oh thank christ, you've put in your irrelevant 2 cents. i was starting to be afraid we wouldn't benefit from your wisdom on yet another fucking topic...phew...
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
I remember really enjoying his book about the 1960's era Hells Angels.
Isn't "a population reacting to the powers that be" kinda like the definition of 'revolution'?
Also, "mere evolution going on"? I'm not sure how biological evolution ties into this, but, in and of itself, it can be quite complex and impressive.
"All a revolution does is shift power." >_< Yeah, ALL the American Revolution did was "shift power".
Based on your posts, Brian37, you seem to be a socially liberal authoritarian thinker. I can't think of any instances where you stated an authority figure you like could believe false things or make mistakes. You seem quite oblivious to the fact you espouse ideas which appear (to me, at least) contradictory. You're also exceptionally dismissive of ideas you disagree with--sometimes even declaring them false without any additional investigation. Lastly, as others have noted before, you are very self-righteous.
Isn't that what I said? I think you misunderstood me. "Revolution" is nothing more than a word reflecting our evolution. It can go in either direction.
Everything humans do is run by humans be it government, religion or business. When any of those things become too big or too abusive, those suffering under it will when having access to enough resources, will react. A revolution will not insure more compassion to dissent if successful. In the west pluralism and secular attitudes, while may not prevent abuse of power, allows more opportunity to hold powers accountable.
It is why for example I blasted Russell Brand for claiming voting doesn't work. I like his good intent of wanting better for the middle class and poor. But without voting or checks and balances on power, he is merely advocating a power vacuum where someone with money and power can fill it, ignoring that if that happens that power may not like him or what he has to say.
Revolutions can go to a more open society to a more closed society or vice versa , shifting power does not mean more freedom or less freedom. What is important is a ban on monopolies of power.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
You are correct, it did not just shift power, it took into account our nature and put in place anti monopoly attitudes to insure we had the opportunity to hold those in power to account.
No I am not self-righteous. I shit pee and fart like everyone else.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
So self-righteous people don't do those things, too ? Where are you getting your information ?
I think so. Your exact statement was "Nothing about any revolution that goes in either direction is "intellectual", it still amounts to a population reacting to the powers that be."
Now, if you agree that "a population reacting to the powers that be" is the definition of a revolution, then your statement amounts to 'revolutions aren't intellectual because they're revolutions'. Such a statement is a complete non-sequitur.
Correct. However, since stating the blindingly obvious is often unnecessary, you probably could have left this sentence out. Unless, did you intend to convey more than 'human-run organizations are run by humans'?
I absolutely agree with both the above statements. Though, I would reword the second to say "Revolutions can lead to a more open, or a more closed, society: power shifts do not guarantee more or fewer freedoms."
I do not yet know enough about this man to say whether or not he uses his money to help the middle class and poor. However, if he hypothetically didn't, would you not see it as hypocritical and contradictory? I mean, what would you think of a person who claimed to truly care about the well-being of dogs, but, in addition to not owning a single one, didn't spend any of their free time or money aiding local animal shelters and the like? Would you think he or she really did care a lot about dogs?
I wouldn't assume he doesn't do some charitable work. Now why would someone have to own a dog to care about them? It is stupid to assume that they cant care. I don't want kids, does that mean I want kids to be raped or die of cancer simply because I don't want one myself?
Again, wealth is not the issue. I am not against wealth. I am against some attitudes in an overall climate.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Did you miss what I wrote? Because your above response does not address the question I asked.
Here it is, in full: "I mean, what would you think of a person who claimed to truly care about the well-being of dogs, but, in addition to not owning a single one, didn't spend any of their free time or money aiding local animal shelters and the like?" I put the key parts in bold and italics.
I think it is a safe bet he won't address what you write in his next reply to you, either.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Again I already gave you my response. . I care that kids don't get cancer or get raped, but I have not become a doctor or police officer.
You can have empathy without always having the time or the means. So I am not going to play "what if" scenarios.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Yes, but your first response did not answer the question I asked.
Which is exactly why I put "any of their FREE time or money aiding". Moreover, one can feel empathy for the suffering of others without taking any specific action to lessen it.
Isn't that what I said? I agree, so what is your problem then?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
It is stupid to fight credulity and superstition because people never attack science.
http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/saudi-sheikh-ali-al-hemki-declares-fatwa-against-manned-missions-to-mars/story-fnjwlcze-...
Taken from Syrian Atheists Facebook page. And yet another reason I call religion poison.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
If a person repeatedly claims to really care about a group, but doesn't try to provide actual help when they have both the time and means, then you should be quite skeptical of their claim. That was what I was trying to illustrate with the dog example. Most people feel bad when they witness others suffering. Merely feeling bad, however, does not relieve anyone's suffering.
This is bullshit. Moral support is also a form of help. It isn't always about material things. I can tell you when I got on line and found other atheists, it wasn't merely a website that helped me, but the posts of people who don't own the sites help me. There will always be people with the means to do physical things. And verbal support helps as well.
There is far more unseen help that cannot be measured in physical work that supports those who actually have the means. You demean those people by implying they don't count. I cannot tell you how many atheists who don't write books or own websites, have had a positive influence on me who don't pay my bills or feed me.
There are different types of help, physical work and money are only part of it, but not all of it. It takes everyone from the big to the small.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Nowhere did I state the only way "to provide actual help" is to give material things. My claim is that merely feeling bad about people's suffering does nothing to relieve it.
Here are some things that AREN'T "merely feeling bad": giving moral support, posting on a website, giving verbal support, volunteering in an aid organization
This is the second time you've responded by addressing an argument I did not make. Are my statements really that poorly worded and/or hard to understand?
Then what is your issue?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/26/17923647-baby-girl-sacrificed-on-bonfire-after-sect-leader-says-tot-is-the-antichris...
But religion is not poison.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/08/charlie-fuqua-arkansas-candidate-death-penalty-rebellious-children_n_1948490.html
But religion is not poison.
And another quote from the article.
Humn sounds a lot like "The Jewish Problem".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
http://www.examiner.com/article/christian-homeschoolers-receive-maximum-jail-time-for-death-of-child
But religion is not poison.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
(WARNING: Brian37, you will likely find my answer offensive.)
The poor reasoning skills on display in significant portions of a number of your posts. Your responses to iwbiek in this thread are perfect examples: they gave the impression you were literally incapable of grasping his actual position.
If I raise a kid to believe that "The Force" in Star Wars is real, and that anyone who says otherwise is wrong, and that meme gets drilled into that kid's head, what kind of coping skills do you think that kid will have when they run into disagreement as adults?
Those parents allowed that kid to die because they themselves were introduced to a book of fiction, and because of that book of fiction they acted on that book.
Same reason the 19 hijackers slammed those planes into the buildings.
Not liking my answers does not constitute me being wrong.
Dawkins explains why this delusion is dangerous. Harris also knows why you cant simply "live and let live". Hitchens also calls it a poison and rightfully so. None of them have ever claimed you can rid the world of religion, but it must always be considered a loaded gun, not out of paranoia, but because of all the examples I have mentioned.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I don't think any of the statements in your above post are examples of the faulty reasoning you sometimes engage in. You should really look at your responses in this thread to iwbiek for that.
What do you intend to convey with the statement "religion is poison"? Is it "organized religion is poison"? "all personal religious beliefs are poison"? "holy books are poison"? "blind faith is poison"? None of the previous, and something else?
Stop justifying superstition. Personal or organized, when people go around making naked assertions, you won't stop them. They are poison because they are treated like a virtue never to be questioned. You have to treat all religions as loaded weapons, not to end them, but minimize potential harm and fascism and monopolies of power.
Scientology for example SHOULD NOT exist. It does because credulous people bought L RON HUBBARD's bullshit, and as a result it has grown and although not big enough now, it is still no different than any other upstart cult in the past because that is how all religions start.
If our species never questioned social norms our species never would have left the caves.
If no one had written the Koran, 19 people whould not have been sold the Idea that ALLAH exists, and they would not have committed suicide and murder because of of the comic book they bought. So at a minimum, since people believe this poison, it must be put to question and blasphemy, as a mirror.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I regularly question certain types of assertions made by people I interact with. You seem to be saying I should instead try to force them into silence. Is that correct?
I think nearly any idea can be dangerous and/or potentially harmful if people view questioning it as somehow immoral.
I pretty much agree with the rest of what you said.
If it were clearly utter bullshit then people wouldn't kill over it. There's your problem. You're so wrapped up in your own narrow views that you are completely incapable of understanding the views of anyone else.
"Your PC attitude is quite mundane."
Lol
"Religion needs offending, not a free pass."
You really need to work on your English. Nothing wrong with offending people or challenging ideas. But calling something poison is refusing to even acknowledge the idea at all. You aren't challenging anything. You're shouting from a soap box on a street corner, and the only people giving a rats ass what you say are equally simple minded fools. Everyone else walks by and ignores you. Or punches you in the face because they're also simple minded, but work the other side of the tracks.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Of course there's also inevitably a few who punch you in the face just because they're tired of your shrill voice waking them up every day.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Ha ha, awesome !!!
Another reason religion is "harmless".
http://www.examiner.com/article/faith-healing-parents-plead-no-contest-death-of-child
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Yes I am shouting from a soapbox, so?
Religion IS poison, truth hurts, but when you accept it you can manage it better.
Yes I do reject the idea of religion, just like I reject the flat earth and the moon being made of cheese. Sperm doesn't pray while swimming to the egg nor does the egg pray for a particular sperm. The fact that humans concoct all sorts of woo and superstition doesn't mean it is true or good for them to believe. Accepting that they will do it doesn't mean their claims deserve taboo status.
Yes I am. Virgin births do not happen. People do not survive rigor mortis. You are not going to get 72 virgins in an afterlife. There is no such thing as multiple armed deities. They are welcome to come here and prove me wrong. All you and they are arguing is "let me believe it because it makes me feel good".
Bullshit, it is precisely because they can't see that it is bullshit that they kill over it. No different than the feeling a kid has when someone tells them Santa isn't real. I've seen fights between kids when I was a kid. The only difference between Santa and gods is that people grow out of Santa and don't base politics on belief in Santa.
Why don't you kill over FSM? Why don't people kill over Harry Potter?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
nobody says there are.
your ignorance is showing again.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Nope. Brian's just too self absorbed to care or understand points of view that disagree with him or flat out prove him wrong. He's becoming a theist. Not sure what religion, but it'll be apparent eventually.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
So you're an idiot.
No it isn't. Truth hurts, but when you accept it you can manage it better.
Nor does it mean it is necessarily bad. But you're as delusional as a theist, and refuse to accept reality. In fact you are worse than a theist. You would bring everyone under your stupid and limiting views if you could. You make the KKK and Hitler look like good people. If you ever gained any power, I would kill you myself.
No you aren't. You are sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting 'lalala' like any 5 year old who doesn't like what he's hearing. Grow up.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Bullshit. It is because the US and Europe has fucked over the entire middle east for centuries that 9/11 happened and suicide bombers are everywhere. Religion is irrelevant.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I think you're absolutely right. Well, I do now--I definitely hadn't realized it at first.
His behavior certainly reminds me of them. However, I think his dogmatic belief system is likely some bizarre political ideology.