Take the intelectual fight to them.

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Take the intelectual fight to them.

Before I begin. I must insist that believers understand, what I am saying here is not a human rights issue. Every atheist here has to some degree believing family and friends and co workers. No atheist should be in the same utopia mindset to think "if only everyone were atheists". On a planet of 7 billion and in an imperfect species, there is no utopia and we should deal with reality the way it is, not the way we want it to be.

 

It is ALSO possible for the atheist to value the human struggle, such as Ann Frank, Martin Luther King Jr, and Malala, without believing in the gods they profess. Atheists in the west, for the most part are always on the side of minorities and have had a long history of supporting the rights of minorities.

 

However, there is a fight going on, and politics and religion are dividing humanity, and all religions are used as weapons to claim moral superiority over others. And there are masses of humans suckered by clearly con artists out of their money  over the stupid idea that a utopia is possible at all.

 

Two of the biggest con artists are cowards and refuse to debate anyone anywhere, and it is up to those of reason to take the VERBAL ONLY, intellectual fight to them.

Here are the facebook pages of Joel Olsteen and Benny Hinn. I invite you to go there and put counter arguments on their pages. You most likely will get deleted, but the more of us that do this, the harder it will be for them to ignore debate.

 

But not just on facebook. Any media or newspaper website where ANY believer of any religion makes a post, counter their arguments with facts. We wont make religion go away, but when it ignores facts and when it poisons minds and fleeces people out of money, only facts and reason can keep these people on a leash.

https://www.facebook.com/BennyHinnMinistries

https://www.facebook.com/JoelOsteen?rf=106009516105438

And just for shits and giggles, here is Banana man's farcebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/official.Ray.Comfort

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote: Dark ages,

Brian37 wrote:

 

Dark ages, which hunts, slavery, sexism, genocide, 9/11, holocaust, are ALL because humans gathered around a mass delusion and treated it as sacred.

that's right, brian, delusion was totally the prime motivating factor in all those things.  economic conditions?  social conditions?  all secondary to belief, because belief exists in a fucking vacuum.

Brian37 wrote:

Political parties and nationalism can ALSO be a form of religion.

NO.

THEY.

CAN-

FUCKING-

NOT!!!!!!

you blinders-wearing fucking cunt!

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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btw, i hesitated to use the

btw, i hesitated to use the word "escape," because i knew this dumbass would start going on about drinking or video games, but what was i to do?  obviously specialized terms like "soteriology" are gonna fly right over his head...

i guess it never occurs to him to ask someone to clarify a term.  clarification is the furthest thing from this tard's mind.

maybe "liberation" would have been a better choice.  moksha-fucking-shastra is a better term for "religion" than "religion" itself.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

Dark ages, which hunts, slavery, sexism, genocide, 9/11, holocaust, are ALL because humans gathered around a mass delusion and treated it as sacred.

that's right, brian, delusion was totally the prime motivating factor in all those things.  economic conditions?  social conditions?  all secondary to belief, because belief exists in a fucking vacuum.

Brian37 wrote:

Political parties and nationalism can ALSO be a form of religion.

NO.

THEY.

CAN-

FUCKING-

NOT!!!!!!

you blinders-wearing fucking cunt!

YES THEY FUCKING CAN!

If you think politics cant be treated like a religion, move to North Korea and try to challenge their communist party, see how far you get. The state is the God.

 

Not only did Hitler set up his Nazi religion his officers had "Gott Min Uns" "God is with us" on their belt buckles.

 

Swallow and follow.

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iwbiek wrote:btw, i

iwbiek wrote:

btw, i hesitated to use the word "escape," because i knew this dumbass would start going on about drinking or video games, but what was i to do?  obviously specialized terms like "soteriology" are gonna fly right over his head...

i guess it never occurs to him to ask someone to clarify a term.  clarification is the furthest thing from this tard's mind.

maybe "liberation" would have been a better choice.  moksha-fucking-shastra is a better term for "religion" than "religion" itself.

So now you've gone from "escape" to "liberation". I'd hardly call women forced to wear Burkas and denial of education "liberation". I would hardly call the girls or women of LDS "liberated".

 

I'd hardly call slavery of blacks by white Christians using the bible to justify it "liberation".

I am sure that the 19 hijackers felt "liberated" going to their deaths murdering 3,000 people.

 

"Religion" in it's latin origin means "to bind" or "tie down", meaning bound to an obligation. If someone is committed by a falsehood to do harm to you, you are a fool to ignore it.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:NO SHIT,

Brian37 wrote:

NO SHIT, SHERLOCK! Alcohol is also used as an escape.  Doesn't mean you should binge drink.

Hitch thought you should. I concur.

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Hitch

Beyond Saving wrote:

Hitch thought you should. I concur.

 

That is what I am doing right now. Rather ironic that the whole purpose of this thread was to take the intellectual fight to them. But it seems to have gone to us.

Sorry, I am blaming the vodka for typing that.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Brian37 wrote: "Religion"

Brian37 wrote:

 

"Religion" in it's latin origin means "to bind" or "tie down", meaning bound to an obligation. If someone is committed by a falsehood to do harm to you, you are a fool to ignore it.

 

 

that is one possible etymology among several.  look it up.

and you can call north korea's personality cult just that: a cult.  you can call it brainwashing.  you can call it programming.  you can call it mass delusion.  you CANNOT call it RELIGION, because that IGNORES the meaning of the term RELIGION.

the kims promise to lead humanity to a better future.  they do not promise a fundamental alteration of what humanity is.  they do not promise a fundamental alteration of what existence is.  therefore, as much as their nonsense might offend you, it is NOT A FUCKING RELIGION.

and obviously, "liberation" was too fucking vague for you too.  look up the sanskrit term moksha.  that is what i mean by both "escape" and "liberation," and that, in one form or another, is the raison d'etre of all religions.  no promise of moksha, no religion.

 

oh, and read your history, dipfuck.  "gott mit uns" had been on the belt buckles of the german military since prussian times (at least).  even hitler knew how conservative the german military was (which is why he relied so much on his police force to get shit done), and since he wanted to make it clear that his reich was a direct legitimate continuation of the holy roman empire and the prussian empire, he saw no reason to change it.  oh, and there were lots of other belt buckles with lots of other different phrases or no phrases.  i hate to tell you this, but showing a photo of a belt buckle with "gott mit uns" on it is not some fucking evidential coup de grace.  the only thing "gott mit uns" on a belt buckle is evidence of is "gott mit uns" on a belt buckle.

 

 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

"Religion" in it's latin origin means "to bind" or "tie down", meaning bound to an obligation. If someone is committed by a falsehood to do harm to you, you are a fool to ignore it.

 

 

that is one possible etymology among several.  look it up.

and you can call north korea's personality cult just that: a cult.  you can call it brainwashing.  you can call it programming.  you can call it mass delusion.  you CANNOT call it RELIGION, because that IGNORES the meaning of the term RELIGION.

the kims promise to lead humanity to a better future.  they do not promise a fundamental alteration of what humanity is.  they do not promise a fundamental alteration of what existence is.  therefore, as much as their nonsense might offend you, it is NOT A FUCKING RELIGION.

and obviously, "liberation" was too fucking vague for you too.  look up the sanskrit term moksha.  that is what i mean by both "escape" and "liberation," and that, in one form or another, is the raison d'etre of all religions.  no promise of moksha, no religion.

 

oh, and read your history, dipfuck.  "gott mit uns" had been on the belt buckles of the german military since prussian times (at least).  even hitler knew how conservative the german military was (which is why he relied so much on his police force to get shit done), and since he wanted to make it clear that his reich was a direct legitimate continuation of the holy roman empire and the prussian empire, he saw no reason to change it.  oh, and there were lots of other belt buckles with lots of other different phrases or no phrases.  i hate to tell you this, but showing a photo of a belt buckle with "gott mit uns" on it is not some fucking evidential coup de grace.  the only thing "gott mit uns" on a belt buckle is evidence of is "gott mit uns" on a belt buckle.

 

 

Stop this is the problem, you cant see that LARGE GROUPS when they become dogmatic, the out groups get oppressed. Region can be BOTH the religion and or the state.

 

And I don't care that Germany was religious before, no shit. Never claimed they suddenly became religious.  I have argued in the past that the Soviet Union in that Religion was in it during its power because it had never left, which would mean that religion was in Russia before the rise of the Soviet Union.

 

BUT BOTH those party nationalist fascist states became the religions, and both those fascist state gave the same obedience to authority that religion does.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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https://www.youtube.com/watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_k9h0ieDGE#t=227

This is one reason religion is poison. These morons not only belittle atheists by calling it a "fad", but are not scientists themselves and are basically brainwashing their viewers into fearing science.

 

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You cherry pick definitions

You cherry pick definitions of words like a theist cherry picks the bible.

Quote:
you can call north korea's personality cult just that: a cult.

 

"A CULT"

The same word is used by majority religions to demonize minority religions. The only difference between a cult and a religion is the numbers. Every religion starts out as a cult.

The Romans considered Christianity as a cult when it was small. Scientology was a cult at one time. Mormonism was a cult at one time.

"Cult" involves blindly following without question, just like people worship Kim Jong Un.

 

 

 

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ok, so basically a

ok, so basically a "religion" is anything brian finds manipulative and/or harmful.  i'm not sure why he insists on the term "religion" but i think it's because he's invested so much of himself in the rhetoric of the new atheist movement for so many years that he cannot countenance the possibility that SOME of that rhetoric might not be sound.

as for me behaving like a theist, i'd like the other witnesses of this train wreck of a thread to weigh in on which of us is more guilty of that behavior.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:the kims

iwbiek wrote:

the kims promise to lead humanity to a better future.  they do not promise a fundamental alteration of what humanity is.  they do not promise a fundamental alteration of what existence is.  therefore, as much as their nonsense might offend you, it is NOT A FUCKING RELIGION. 

Actually I would agree. When you look at it from the standpoint that while rallies, festivals and drumming people up into frenzies of patriotism is one thing, I do not think that it could actually be called a religion.

The Soviet Union has already been mentioned on this thread and plenty of pictures demonstrate that religion and private worship was never outlawed during that time.

In fact, Glasnost revealed quite a number of pictures of weddings, ceremonies and such that did not have any inclusion of the state involved.

While some might argue that pictures of Lenin above the schoolkids or statues of Lenin were on the streets, I do not think that constitutes an actual religion.

While Stalin may have had a bit of a permeating presence and image of the grandfather watching his flock (at least, according to one book that I read) I do not think that it was required to pray to Stalin or worship Stalin in the hopes of some mystical transformation.

Orwell actually created that (rather overrated in my opinion) 1984 because of the fact that he was all upset that the allies were willing to turn a blind eye to what Stalin might have/have not been doing to help defeat Hitler.

While I do not have any friends that were alive during the era of Stalin, I DO have Russian friends these days on Facebook that I talk to all the time who are about my age.

Curious about the Soviet Union, (they were children during the time of Perestroika and Glasnost, as was I) they had me on skype on night and allowed me to talk to their parents about it.

THEY actually seemed to love life under the Soviet Union. (I am not giving a political statement here, I am pointing out something). They even told me that if I could speak some Russian (which I can not) that I could talk to their grandparents about what life was really like under the time of Stalin.

Now, that having been said, I was informed at some of the papers I sometimes browse, like : "Russia Beyond The Headlines" are always written from an American perspective and thus quite difficult to get a feel for what the Russian life is like or thinking.

A case in point would be this recent ruckus about the members of the band "Pussy Riot" going to jail over breaking in a church and having a punk rock concert. What our headlines seem to be reporting and what the insiders view seem to be reporting is two different things.

Now, I have typed all of that to simply say that life under a Communist government does not warrant calling Communism a religion.

A fellow co-worker whose buddy is from Romania (and jokes that Romanian politics have been fucked for over a 100 years) told me over some drinks one night that near the end of 1989, the local people running the thing were not even what would you call : "Communists". They were just people trying to hold the system together before the revolt. Consequently, removing that guy from power in 89 (and can't remember his name) created all sorts of major hassles that they still have not recuperated from.

So no, I really don't see a Communist rule as a religion.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I don't personally

I don't personally believe that Hitler believed in much of anything to be honest.

I think he pandered to whomever he wanted to get the results that he wanted.

He knew that big festivals, patriotic frenzy, beer and the fact that a better economy was going down would only get the people into a frenzy.

I doubt very seriously that he even took his fucked up notions of eugenics all of that seriously. I think the idea of having a name in history that he had conquered the world and built a mighty Reich was more of his belief system than anything else.

Truth to be told, when people start bringing up that "so-so was an atheist" I just simply say that its a fallacy of equivocation.

If I pointed out that serial killer and cannibal Albert Fish was a Presbyterian (a devout one actually) would anyone even remotely give that argument any sort of consideration ?

To be it is just plain dumb to even debate about Stalin being an Atheist or whether Hitler was. That to me is simply brainless theists grasping at straws.

Easily countered by simply rattling off a list of good people who were/are Atheists.

To be the whole argument of dictators are atheists is the same logical fallacy of saying = Hitler and Napoleon were all short men. Thus all short men in power become ruthless.

It's a plain and simple waste of time.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Brian37 wrote: However,

Brian37 wrote:

 

However, there is a fight going on, and politics and religion are dividing humanity, and all religions are used as weapons to claim moral superiority over others. And there are masses of humans suckered by clearly con artists out of their money  over the stupid idea that a utopia is possible at all.

 

If you ever spend time digging down into what theists believe and why they believe it, you'll soon realize that they don't really believe. They believe what they're told to believe, pascal's wager or their afraid to not believe. Or they're Benny Hill or Osteen and they 'believe' because it's easy money. So what is the point of having a debate about religion with people that don't really believe?

The debate should be if religion is an appropriate opiate for human suffering. If human misery were greatly reduced the need for religon would go away

The debate then should be about politics and how can society reduce or eliminate suffering. Your answer is things like greatly raise the minimum wage. At a time when robots and computers are rapidly replacing these jobs. Or just raise taxes on the rich when the rich can easily move their capital elsewhere. Just highly simplistic and irrational thinking that totally ignores unintended consequences and moral hazards.

So there is going to be a lot of suffering as long as people like you think and vote the way you do. So why can't 'theists' have an opiate for their suffering since you don't want to use science and reason to eliminate it?

 

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:Brian37

EXC wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

 

However, there is a fight going on, and politics and religion are dividing humanity, and all religions are used as weapons to claim moral superiority over others. And there are masses of humans suckered by clearly con artists out of their money  over the stupid idea that a utopia is possible at all.

 

If you ever spend time digging down into what theists believe and why they believe it, you'll soon realize that they don't really believe. They believe what they're told to believe, pascal's wager or their afraid to not believe. Or they're Benny Hill or Osteen and they 'believe' because it's easy money. So what is the point of having a debate about religion with people that don't really believe?

The debate should be if religion is an appropriate opiate for human suffering. If human misery were greatly reduced the need for religon would go away

The debate then should be about politics and how can society reduce or eliminate suffering. Your answer is things like greatly raise the minimum wage. At a time when robots and computers are rapidly replacing these jobs. Or just raise taxes on the rich when the rich can easily move their capital elsewhere. Just highly simplistic and irrational thinking that totally ignores unintended consequences and moral hazards.

So there is going to be a lot of suffering as long as people like you think and vote the way you do. So why can't 'theists' have an opiate for their suffering since you don't want to use science and reason to eliminate it?

 

 

Quote:
vote the way you do

Translation, "It is fair when I win an election, but unfair when I lose an election"

 

Yes because corporate welfare, tax shelters and rewards for shipping jobs overseas,  for the past 30 years has worked sooooooo well.

I agree that improving conditions will make religion less relevant, which is why religion is a poison, because instead of focusing on economics, the religious right uses it as a distraction to pit otherwise those who should focus on their wallet issues against each other.

Which is why there is "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion"

AND "No religious test" in the oath of office.

AND  The Barbary Treaty Article 11, "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

No,  just the opposite, if we keep doing what the right wants we will end up looking like Somalia, a few rich convincing poor religious people to kill for them.

 

Quote:
Or just raise taxes on the rich when the rich can easily move their capital elsewhere.

Which makes them bully crybabies  just like a God "If I can't have you no one can".

There is a difference between can't and don't want to. But don't give me any crap that the uber rich cant afford higher taxes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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harleysportster wrote:I

harleysportster wrote:

I don't personally believe that Hitler believed in much of anything to be honest.

I think he pandered to whomever he wanted to get the results that he wanted.

He knew that big festivals, patriotic frenzy, beer and the fact that a better economy was going down would only get the people into a frenzy.

I doubt very seriously that he even took his fucked up notions of eugenics all of that seriously. I think the idea of having a name in history that he had conquered the world and built a mighty Reich was more of his belief system than anything else.

Truth to be told, when people start bringing up that "so-so was an atheist" I just simply say that its a fallacy of equivocation.

If I pointed out that serial killer and cannibal Albert Fish was a Presbyterian (a devout one actually) would anyone even remotely give that argument any sort of consideration ?

To be it is just plain dumb to even debate about Stalin being an Atheist or whether Hitler was. That to me is simply brainless theists grasping at straws.

Easily countered by simply rattling off a list of good people who were/are Atheists.

To be the whole argument of dictators are atheists is the same logical fallacy of saying = Hitler and Napoleon were all short men. Thus all short men in power become ruthless.

It's a plain and simple waste of time.

No, I do think he did believe the crap he sold. You don't scapegoat an entire population over nothing. Certainly nuts, but if he had been an atheist, considering he hated any dissent to his power, you wouldn't see him in pictures with clergy, they would be in the ovens with the Jews.

Stalin may have been an atheist, but he certainly was not against the majority Russian Orthodox Church which never left under his rule. Both were anti dissent, but you are right, it should not matter what their personal beliefs were.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote:Translation,

Brian37 wrote:

Translation, "It is fair when I win an election, but unfair when I lose an election"

 

That is precisely what people have been criticizing you for. EXC did not say anything of the sort and it doesn't need to be translated because he was writing in English. You are the only person in the world who got that message from what EXC said. Rather than address what EXC actually said, you reach into your bag of phrases and choose which one you are going to rant about. It is very much like a popular technique that politicians use in debates or press conferences where they have a series of prepared answers and just plug one in, even if the answer bears no relation to the question that was asked. They figure that no one will pay attention to what question was asked because in the recaps the media tends to just play the answers due to time limitations.

Unfortunately for you, most people on this site actually pay attention and can tell that you are responding with a post that isn't related to any of the points made. You really should go apply Jay Carney's job, you are a natural. 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Brian37

Beyond Saving wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Translation, "It is fair when I win an election, but unfair when I lose an election"

 

That is precisely what people have been criticizing you for. EXC did not say anything of the sort and it doesn't need to be translated because he was writing in English. You are the only person in the world who got that message from what EXC said. Rather than address what EXC actually said, you reach into your bag of phrases and choose which one you are going to rant about. It is very much like a popular technique that politicians use in debates or press conferences where they have a series of prepared answers and just plug one in, even if the answer bears no relation to the question that was asked. They figure that no one will pay attention to what question was asked because in the recaps the media tends to just play the answers due to time limitations.

Unfortunately for you, most people on this site actually pay attention and can tell that you are responding with a post that isn't related to any of the points made. You really should go apply Jay Carney's job, you are a natural. 

 

 

Yes, because all I have to do to be happy is follow your formula. Funny how when people claim that tons of division follows.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Yes, because

Brian37 wrote:

Yes, because all I have to do to be happy is follow your formula. Funny how when people claim that tons of division follows.

And again, how does that relate at all to what you quoted?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:Certainly

Brian37 wrote:

Certainly nuts, but if he had been an atheist, considering he hated any dissent to his power, you wouldn't see him in pictures with clergy, they would be in the ovens with the Jews. 

utterly ridiculous and unfounded.  before the founding of the state of israel, literally no country in the world gave enough of a shit about the jews to look into germany's business.  different countries had different reasons for getting into the war, but none of them were to save the jews, so why not exterminate them?  the jews were a relatively disorganized, dispersed group of people with no lobby anywhere.

the catholic church, otoh, was a powerful, highly organized international cartel with friends in high places in almost every government in the developed world.  why would hitler run the risk of alienating them?  he may have been demented but he wasn't stupid and, believe it or not, one's principles, as an "atheist" or whatever, can be mighty flexible.

we know from hitler's own writings that he, like nietzsche, despised the catholic church, the christian god, the bible, and pretty much every organized religion.  to say he was a christian in anything but name is absurd, because he left us his thoughts very clearly.  still, he cozied up to the catholic church.  why?  because it was the smart thing to do.  he came to power in bavaria, which is overwhelmingly catholic, and all the countries he wanted to annex--austria, czechoslovakia, poland--are all catholic.

we don't know if he was an atheist or not, but if he had a god, it was definitely his own private one.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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There are many pictures of Hitler with clergy

 


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There are many pictures of Hitler with clergy

 


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iwbiek wrote: we know from

iwbiek wrote:

 

we know from hitler's own writings that he, like nietzsche, despised the catholic church, the christian god, the bible, and pretty much every organized religion.  to say he was a christian in anything but name is absurd, because he left us his thoughts very clearly.  still, he cozied up to the catholic church.  why?  because it was the smart thing to do.  he came to power in bavaria, which is overwhelmingly catholic, and all the countries he wanted to annex--austria, czechoslovakia, poland--are all catholic.

I am rather glad that you brought that up because I am in a debate (well, it is a degenerate train wreck at this point) with this dickhead on Facebook that keeps claiming a lot of Anti-Catholic stuff and claiming that Hitler was a devout Catholic.

Now, while I am not defending the Catholic Church on this one, it is a bit annoying to go back and forth with this moron about that thinks only the Protestant Fundamentalism were the ones that spoke against persecution. (Easily dismissed by all of the anti-Semitic writings of Martin Luther and the Inquisition which can demonstrate that witch burnings and trials was not just a solely "Catholic" thing.

NOW. I may or may not respond to this fucktard that I am debating (well, not even worthy of being called a debate with a moron) but I would like to have more information about what you have stated for future reference.

I am guessing that the key would be in Hitler's writings, but I can't seem to find any Anti-Catholic statements made by him.

Contrary to what a lot of "internet intellectuals" I call them seem to think. Google is not always a very good source of accurate information.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:iwbiek

harleysportster wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

 

we know from hitler's own writings that he, like nietzsche, despised the catholic church, the christian god, the bible, and pretty much every organized religion.  to say he was a christian in anything but name is absurd, because he left us his thoughts very clearly.  still, he cozied up to the catholic church.  why?  because it was the smart thing to do.  he came to power in bavaria, which is overwhelmingly catholic, and all the countries he wanted to annex--austria, czechoslovakia, poland--are all catholic.

I am rather glad that you brought that up because I am in a debate (well, it is a degenerate train wreck at this point) with this dickhead on Facebook that keeps claiming a lot of Anti-Catholic stuff and claiming that Hitler was a devout Catholic.

Now, while I am not defending the Catholic Church on this one, it is a bit annoying to go back and forth with this moron about that thinks only the Protestant Fundamentalism were the ones that spoke against persecution. (Easily dismissed by all of the anti-Semitic writings of Martin Luther and the Inquisition which can demonstrate that witch burnings and trials was not just a solely "Catholic" thing.

NOW. I may or may not respond to this fucktard that I am debating (well, not even worthy of being called a debate with a moron) but I would like to have more information about what you have stated for future reference.

I am guessing that the key would be in Hitler's writings, but I can't seem to find any Anti-Catholic statements made by him.

Contrary to what a lot of "internet intellectuals" I call them seem to think. Google is not always a very good source of accurate information.

I don't have any specific links, but for that type of research I would try www.springer.com or www.jstor.org, they both have a lot of free material available especially older stuff. On Jstor you are limited to saving 3 articles at a time on the free side, but if you find yourself using it that much the jpass subscription is $20/month, a lot cheaper than purchasing journals and allows unrestricted reading online plus downloads. Your local library might have a subscription to one of them you can use too, might be worth asking at the reference desk if you don't mind doing your research in a library.   

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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harleysportster wrote: I am

harleysportster wrote:

 

I am rather glad that you brought that up because I am in a debate (well, it is a degenerate train wreck at this point) with this dickhead on Facebook that keeps claiming a lot of Anti-Catholic stuff and claiming that Hitler was a devout Catholic.

Now, while I am not defending the Catholic Church on this one, it is a bit annoying to go back and forth with this moron about that thinks only the Protestant Fundamentalism were the ones that spoke against persecution. (Easily dismissed by all of the anti-Semitic writings of Martin Luther and the Inquisition which can demonstrate that witch burnings and trials was not just a solely "Catholic" thing.

NOW. I may or may not respond to this fucktard that I am debating (well, not even worthy of being called a debate with a moron) but I would like to have more information about what you have stated for future reference.

I am guessing that the key would be in Hitler's writings, but I can't seem to find any Anti-Catholic statements made by him.

Contrary to what a lot of "internet intellectuals" I call them seem to think. Google is not always a very good source of accurate information.

i'm not sure if he actually wrote a lot of invective specifically against the catholic church, but he was definitely down on christianity in general.  he followed nietzsche's lead in seeing it as an immature, altruistic fantasy for the weak (bc altruism was only for the weak in his mind).

tbh, he didn't write much about god or religion either way, but what he did write was negative.  it seems he didn't really care that much about the issue, which definitely gives the lie to him being "devout."

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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From what I can gather, he was Christian, but saw flaws in the denominations. It's a complex issue though, since as mentioned above he needed to co-operate with the religious powers, and they with him.

http://coelsblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/nazi-racial-ideology-was-religious-creationist-and-opposed-to-darwinism/#sec7

Some extracts:

In a speech that year Hitler said:

“Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith …” [April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant.]

In a similar speech (Reichstag on March 23, 1933), Hitler emphasises the religious and ethical values he has in common with the churches and warns against any compromise with atheists:

“By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life. The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values. The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society.”

 


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the only problem with taking

the only problem with taking hitler's nods to christianity as evidence of his being a christian is that we know both he and himmler were planning a total revamp of german religious life once the war was won: an official aryan church, with elements of the catholic mass, certainly, but also with strong overtures of germanic and norse polytheism.  even then, it's hard to conclude that hitler believed in wotan any more than the trinity.  i think the only sound conclusion we can draw from a holistic examination of hitler's writings is that he used popular religion when useful, cared nothing about it when it wasn't, and ultimately believed in nothing but his own capacity for being the savior of the aryan race.

if we are satisfied with defining "christian" as someone born into the religion who pays lip-service to it, then yes, hitler was a christian.  but you should know most christians are not satisfied with this definition.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Brian37

iwbiek wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Certainly nuts, but if he had been an atheist, considering he hated any dissent to his power, you wouldn't see him in pictures with clergy, they would be in the ovens with the Jews. 

utterly ridiculous and unfounded.  before the founding of the state of israel, literally no country in the world gave enough of a shit about the jews to look into germany's business.  different countries had different reasons for getting into the war, but none of them were to save the jews, so why not exterminate them?  the jews were a relatively disorganized, dispersed group of people with no lobby anywhere.

the catholic church, otoh, was a powerful, highly organized international cartel with friends in high places in almost every government in the developed world.  why would hitler run the risk of alienating them?  he may have been demented but he wasn't stupid and, believe it or not, one's principles, as an "atheist" or whatever, can be mighty flexible.

we know from hitler's own writings that he, like nietzsche, despised the catholic church, the christian god, the bible, and pretty much every organized religion.  to say he was a christian in anything but name is absurd, because he left us his thoughts very clearly.  still, he cozied up to the catholic church.  why?  because it was the smart thing to do.  he came to power in bavaria, which is overwhelmingly catholic, and all the countries he wanted to annex--austria, czechoslovakia, poland--are all catholic.

we don't know if he was an atheist or not, but if he had a god, it was definitely his own private one.

Hitler was not an atheist. You can call him a twisted form of mix, but he did believe in a god. Not liking how another human behaves does not change what they believe in their head. Just like Bin Laden was a Muslim just as a moderate or liberal Muslim.

FOR EXAMPLE: Say an atheist went into a movie theater and mowed down 20 people with a A-k 47, I would not claim they were not an atheist, simply because I don't like what they did.

Um who claimed anyone cared about the Jews before the war? But the discovery of genocide during and after the war was globally horrifying. The one thing to this day I do question, was after the war the Allies setting up Israel as a nation surrounded by people that hated them.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote:Hitler was not

Brian37 wrote:

Hitler was not an atheist. You can call him a twisted form of mix, but he did believe in a god.

Oh really? Did you know him?

 

Brian37 wrote:

FOR EXAMPLE: Say an atheist went into a movie theater and mowed down 20 people with a A-k 47, I would not claim they were not an atheist, simply because I don't like what they did.

So what is the magic number where you make the claim? A million?

Hitler was raised Catholic and he did maintain relations with the church, although the argument that he did so purely for practical reasons is very strong. The few people who knew him personally spoke of him hating Christianity. We really don't know whether he believed in any type of god or not. Whatever he believed, he kept close to the chest. He certainly was not devout in any religion.

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Hitler

Beyond Saving wrote:

Hitler was raised Catholic and he did maintain relations with the church, although the argument that he did so purely for practical reasons is very strong. The few people who knew him personally spoke of him hating Christianity. We really don't know whether he believed in any type of god or not. Whatever he believed, he kept close to the chest. He certainly was not devout in any religion.

 

Which really confirms what I was thinking all along and was hinting at when I posted above. I really don't think that Hitler believed in too much beyond the scope of his own infallible authority over everything and everyone.

In many of the speeches that he made, he was very quick to assert his demigod feelings over the people.

I liken Hitler more to having the attitude of thinking he was Yahweh more than actually following a Yahweh.

Look at how many of his loyal followers got executed by him even though they had committed no crime.

If I am not mistaken, many of the Brownshirts died with a stiff arm salute and praises for Hitler during the Night of the Long Knives.

Generally someone with that type of narcisstic egocentric passion is probably not very heavily influenced by anything more than themselves and will use any method to keeping that power, is what my opinion would be.

While Hitler probably DID have many philosophical influences, he could just as easily have decided those same men were corrupted and declared their stuff burned the next day.

Either that, or he would have undoubtedly pointed out all of the flaws in anyone who influenced him and "perfected" it. If I am not completely mistaken he DID actually bastardize a lot of his influences to make it his own. Like Nietzsche and such. Now, that is just what I have read in places and I can not attest to the exact accuracy of that.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Beyond Saving wrote: Hitler

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Hitler was raised Catholic and he did maintain relations with the church, although the argument that he did so purely for practical reasons is very strong. The few people who knew him personally spoke of him hating Christianity. We really don't know whether he believed in any type of god or not. Whatever he believed, he kept close to the chest. He certainly was not devout in any religion.

 

 

precisely.  a person's outward professions are not always conclusive, especially if those professions are rare and lukewarm.

i was raised protestant and still attend my old church at least once every time i visit the states, mostly as a social call and out of respect for my devoutly religious grandmother, whom i have no interest in trying to "change" because she's one of the sweetest, most self-sacrificing people who's ever lived.  does that make me a protestant?

here in the village in slovakia i frequently attend catholic mass because i play lead guitar for the youth choir.  i'm happy most of them are there, especially the teens, because it keeps them from getting bored and going to the bars or starting to mess with drugs (here in slovakia, if you can see over the bar in most places you can get a drink).  no one else around here is offering anything constructive for the kids to do and the choir leader is my neighbor and a good guy.  i'm happy to help him out and he knows my views and we have an unspoken agreement to just let it be.  does that make me a catholic?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:Beyond Saving

iwbiek wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Hitler was raised Catholic and he did maintain relations with the church, although the argument that he did so purely for practical reasons is very strong. The few people who knew him personally spoke of him hating Christianity. We really don't know whether he believed in any type of god or not. Whatever he believed, he kept close to the chest. He certainly was not devout in any religion.

 

 

precisely.  a person's outward professions are not always conclusive, especially if those professions are rare and lukewarm.

i was raised protestant and still attend my old church at least once every time i visit the states, mostly as a social call and out of respect for my devoutly religious grandmother, whom i have no interest in trying to "change" because she's one of the sweetest, most self-sacrificing people who's ever lived.  does that make me a protestant?

here in the village in slovakia i frequently attend catholic mass because i play lead guitar for the youth choir.  i'm happy most of them are there, especially the teens, because it keeps them from getting bored and going to the bars or starting to mess with drugs (here in slovakia, if you can see over the bar in most places you can get a drink).  no one else around here is offering anything constructive for the kids to do and the choir leader is my neighbor and a good guy.  i'm happy to help him out and he knows my views and we have an unspoken agreement to just let it be.  does that make me a catholic?

Sorry, Hitler was not simply playing lip service to religion, he believed in a god and believed that Germans were god's chosen people.

Other people in this thread have given you quotes and pictures that prove his belief in a god.

 

I have been to church services and Christmas parties myself, but like you everyone knows my beliefs, like you.

 

We have enough documentation of all media of his time to know what he believed. You will not find one quote in print or on film where he says "there is no god, I am an atheist". Just the opposite.

 

 

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Brian37 wrote: Sorry,

Brian37 wrote:

 

Sorry, Hitler was not simply playing lip service to religion, he believed in a god and believed that Germans were god's chosen people.

well, that's fuckin' it, folks.  brian, the fuckin' expert on everything, just settled another decades-long debate for us.  why are you not in the halls of power?

hitler, unlike you and me, was a motherfucking politician, and a successful one at that.  if you're too fucking naive to see or too blockheaded to admit that the words politicians say and the pictures politicians pose for, especially successful politicians, often mean dick, welcome to one of the world's tiniest minorities.

this is the reverse situation of dawkins and obama.  you say hitler was a theist because you want him to be a theist.

NEWS FLASH, BRIAN.  only fucking moronic dicks speak conclusively where there's no conclusive evidence.  in this case, evidence we have.  conclusive evidence we don't.  don't you ever fucking use words like "probably," "it seems," "most likely," "doubtful," "it's possible to conclude," etc.?  you know, all those phrases rational people use?

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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harleysportster wrote:Beyond

harleysportster wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Hitler was raised Catholic and he did maintain relations with the church, although the argument that he did so purely for practical reasons is very strong. The few people who knew him personally spoke of him hating Christianity. We really don't know whether he believed in any type of god or not. Whatever he believed, he kept close to the chest. He certainly was not devout in any religion.

 

Which really confirms what I was thinking all along and was hinting at when I posted above. I really don't think that Hitler believed in too much beyond the scope of his own infallible authority over everything and everyone.

In many of the speeches that he made, he was very quick to assert his demigod feelings over the people.

I liken Hitler more to having the attitude of thinking he was Yahweh more than actually following a Yahweh.

Look at how many of his loyal followers got executed by him even though they had committed no crime.

If I am not mistaken, many of the Brownshirts died with a stiff arm salute and praises for Hitler during the Night of the Long Knives.

Generally someone with that type of narcisstic egocentric passion is probably not very heavily influenced by anything more than themselves and will use any method to keeping that power, is what my opinion would be.

While Hitler probably DID have many philosophical influences, he could just as easily have decided those same men were corrupted and declared their stuff burned the next day.

Either that, or he would have undoubtedly pointed out all of the flaws in anyone who influenced him and "perfected" it. If I am not completely mistaken he DID actually bastardize a lot of his influences to make it his own. Like Nietzsche and such. Now, that is just what I have read in places and I can not attest to the exact accuracy of that.

http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Power-Aesthetics-Frederic-Spotts/dp/1585673455/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1383141773&sr=8-4&keywords=hitler+philosophy

I read a rather interesting book that argued Hitler's concept of art played a major role in his motivations. Spotts argues that Hitler did not view himself as a politician so much as an artist. So much attention is focused on his political actions that it is easy to forget Hitler was a very intelligent person with a passion for philosophy, fine arts and dogs.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Power-Aesthetics-Frederic-Spotts/dp/1585673455/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1383141773&sr=8-4&keywords=hitler+philosophy

Spotts argues that Hitler did not view himself as a politician so much as an artist. So much attention is focused on his political actions that it is easy to forget Hitler was a very intelligent person with a passion for philosophy, fine arts and dogs.

Hitler was very interested in architecture, art, and music.

Also was a very passionate vegetarian that believed that meet eating was "corpse eating."

I think this is really a good point to bring about when it comes to the fallacy of equivocation when theists argue : "Well, Hitler was an atheist."

I never really hear of anyone using that argument to go against vegetarians.

Why ? Simply because that would be easily debunked by the sheer number of people on the opposite end of the spectrum that are vegetarians.

I think there is a tendency to take a really evil human being and demonize every aspect of them to the point that there can be no allowed qualities about them to where one can admit anything about them had any human qualities.

I remember reading about some university somewhere that did not want Wagner to be played because it was one of Hitler's favorite composers. Utterly ridiculous.

I did not know that art/aesthetics would have had an influence upon some of the ideas that Hitler developed, but given his notions of super highways and grand structures, I can see why that would be.

It reminds me of a fictitious film with John Cusack, where a Jewish artist meets a young Adolf Hitler in pre-Nazi Germany. In the film, Hitler is portrayed as a somewhat neurotic character that can not properly find his niche.

Near the end of the film, Cusack is blown away by the sketches of infra-structures, monuments and future highways. Proclaiming that Hitler has finally found his art niche.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote: I

harleysportster wrote:

 

I remember reading about some university somewhere that did not want Wagner to be played because it was one of Hitler's favorite composers. Utterly ridiculous.

well, wagner also believed a lot of the same basic things as hitler, specifically germans as a mythological, "master" race.  i'm pretty sure he was also antisemitic.

of course, wagner, to my knowledge, was never responsible for anyone's death, and plenty of artists and writers have had kooky views we tend to find offensive today.  we have to remember that antisemitism was the norm in 19th century europe, especially with the dreyfus affair.

so yes, i agree it's ridiculous.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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On Wagner.

iwbiek wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

 

I remember reading about some university somewhere that did not want Wagner to be played because it was one of Hitler's favorite composers. Utterly ridiculous.

well, wagner also believed a lot of the same basic things as hitler, specifically germans as a mythological, "master" race.  i'm pretty sure he was also antisemitic.

of course, wagner, to my knowledge, was never responsible for anyone's death, and plenty of artists and writers have had kooky views we tend to find offensive today.  we have to remember that antisemitism was the norm in 19th century europe, especially with the dreyfus affair.

so yes, i agree it's ridiculous.

 

                              Wagner was so anti-semetic he was known to conduct orchestras performing music written by Jewish composers with gloves on,  so he wouldn't have to touch the actual score.  On the other hand his son-in-law was Jewish.  Why would Wagner even conduct Jewish music?   The orchestra Director chooses the music, a guest conductor ; Wagner was among the busiest of his day; conducts what he's paid to conduct, or he doesn't get paid. Just a case of money over ruling opinion.

 

     

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Just throwing my two cents

Just throwing my two cents in regarding Hitler.

 

I'm pretty keen on World War II history, but as far as Adolf's religious beliefs, there is way too much here-say and smear campaign revolving around that for anything to turn out concrete as "he was definitely an atheist" or "he was, without a doubt, a catholic."  Anyone making absolute statements towards his beliefs obviously doesn't take part in a thing called "speculation."  There's no harm in rationalizing what you THINK he was or if he had any sort of misguided religious intent behind his final solution.  That being said, they are assumptions and nothing more.

 

Besides, we all know Hitler's obsession with the occult.  Maybe the fucker was a pagan or a secret satanist or fucking Wiccan.  The guy was a twisted son of a bitch.

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Sage_Override wrote: there

Sage_Override wrote:

 there is way too much here-say and smear campaign revolving around that for anything to turn out concrete as "he was definitely an atheist" or "he was, without a doubt, a catholic."  Anyone making absolute statements towards his beliefs obviously doesn't take part in a thing called "speculation."  There's no harm in rationalizing what you THINK he was or if he had any sort of misguided religious intent behind his final solution.  That being said, they are assumptions and nothing more.

 

I think that Hitler's ideas (and not just his religious beliefs) are what have kept, historians, behavioral science experts, psychologists and everyone else involved in the subject completely baffled for since the time of Hitler.

People have been forever trying to unravel the puzzle as to what could/could not have been.

I really do not see much of a way that the riddle will ever be solved.

Strangely enough, while the name Hitler seems to inspire much hatred and outrage, not too many people seem to have the same reaction to saying : Mao or anyone else that has been attributed to being a dictator.

Not too long ago, I began reading a book called :Stalin by Walter Lacquer.

How accurate that it is, I have yet to know, without reading other books about the Soviet Union (a particular interest of mine as of late for no real reason).

Stalin to me, seems to be more of an enigma that Hitler and here is why.

According to this book (which is just basing off of records that were revealed AFTER Glasnost, so again, accuracy could be questionable)

Stalin was not a very good public orator, not given to drumming people up to super-patriotic frenzies, lacked in social skills and out of the original revolutionaries, was seen as the least likely to succeed in the party by guys like Trotsky and Lenin.

While Lenin and Trotsky and others, spent most of their exile in Siberia writing pamphlets, and engaging in political activities, Stalin on the other hand, spent all of his time fishing, hunting and enjoying as much leisure as possible. (Which probably would have been minimal in Siberia).

Stalin also did not seem to stick his neck out much for the party during the pre-revolution days nor did he seem to be that interested in party politics. One of his jobs was simply running documents around and such, but no real public positions of danger.

Stalin was also severely lacking in a lot of social skills and was not good with people in general.

Yet, despite all of this, he gets to rule for years and is able to get the image of a grandfatherly old gentleman that is gently guiding his people.

It is rather odd to note that it was only days after his funeral, that a lot of adoration stopped.

Before that time, not a single song, poem or graduation ceremony would not have at least one minor homage to Stalin. (Again, this is according to that one book and until I get more material on the subject, its accuracy is open to debate).

While Trotsky and Lenin are both fascinating characters to me (Lenin having no interest in revolution until his brother's assassination and Trotsky being the intellectual that he was) I think the biggest mystery out of all of them would have to be Josef Stalin.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Fuck Sam Harris for saying

Fuck Sam Harris for saying moderates should call out their own. Fuck Hitchens for calling religion poison.

http://freethinker.co.uk/2013/10/31/moderate-muslims-at-norway-peace-conference-endorse-stoning-for-gays-and-adulterers/

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harleysportster wrote:Lenin

harleysportster wrote:
Lenin having no interest in revolution until his brother's assassination

i think far too much has been made of the role lenin's brother's execution (it was his brother who was the would-be assassin) played in his revolutionary motivation.  it's true in later years he sometimes cited his brother as an example, but the idea it was the prime, or even sole, motivation of his revolutionary ideology is due to mythmaking both by the communists and the cold warriors.

revolutionary conspiracy was a prime way for young intellectuals to act out and express themselves in the backward, reactionary, hyperreligious tsarist society.  becoming a revolutionary was almost part and parcel of being a young intellectual in those days, and not just in russia either.

 

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Religion is not

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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harleysportster wrote:Stalin

harleysportster wrote:

Stalin on the other hand, spent all of his time fishing, hunting and enjoying as much leisure as possible. (Which probably would have been minimal in Siberia).

You would be surprised, Siberia is a popular hunting destination. The country has the largest brown bears in the world, elk, caribou, snow sheep and five species of deer. It is also a popular destination for the dedicated fly fisher, mostly due to their population of taimen. I didn't know Stalin was an avid outdoorsman, but if I was stuck in Siberia, I would spend my time hunting and fishing too. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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iwbiek wrote: i think far

iwbiek wrote:

 

i think far too much has been made of the role lenin's brother's execution (it was his brother who was the would-be assassin) played in his revolutionary motivation.  it's true in later years he sometimes cited his brother as an example, but the idea it was the prime, or even sole, motivation of his revolutionary ideology is due to mythmaking both by the communists and the cold warriors.

 

It is indeed pointed out in Three Who Made a Revolution and Rolf Theen's Lenin, that much myth did surround the early life of Lenin.

I think it is in 3 Who Made A Revolution that it was pointed out that even Trotsky had stated in his writings that some of the stuff about Lenin's early life (i.e. many Soviet biographies paint Lenin as someone who always hated bourgesoie and was a working class hero as a teen, which many know to be blatantly false) but thus far, (through my limited reading) it seems to be a bit of an underlying thread that he was motivated by his brother's execution.

However, he did seem to continue upon the intellectual type of path that his father before him had taken after the murder of his brother.

Again, there was quite a bit of mythmaking done by both the Soviets and the other side.

That was one of the reasons that I had stated that I was not sure about this latest Stalin book that I picked up. It was released shortly after the glasnost thing and I am not sure how much of it could be completely accurate.

But then again, there is always a fine line between truth and fiction in history and as far as me every finding anything that is 100% accurate is not going to happen.

If I ever invent a time machine and make it back there, at least I'll know what to ask these dudes. Provided they do not order me shot on site of course.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Beyond Saving wrote:You

Beyond Saving wrote:

You would be surprised, Siberia is a popular hunting destination. The country has the largest brown bears in the world, elk, caribou, snow sheep and five species of deer. It is also a popular destination for the dedicated fly fisher, mostly due to their population of taimen. I didn't know Stalin was an avid outdoorsman, but if I was stuck in Siberia, I would spend my time hunting and fishing too. 

LOL. It sounds like you will know exactly what to do if you ever get exiled to Siberia.

If I could find where the women and vodka was located. I'd probably enjoy myself there too Smiling

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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three who made a revolution

three who made a revolution has been on my bookshelf for four years now.  i really need to read it.  fuck, i get so backed up.  right now i'm more obsessed with 19th century europe, and my constant study of indian philosophy always slow things down.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Beyond Saving wrote:The

Beyond Saving wrote:

The country has the largest brown bears in the world, elk, caribou, snow sheep and five species of deer.  

    Siberia also has the world's largest species of big cat, twenty-five percent of the world's timber and the world's deepest lake.  Not to mention that Siberia is really, really vast.

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siberia is starting to sound

siberia is starting to sound like my idea of heaven...as long as i had plenty of alcohol and strong pipe tobacco there, i think i'd be all set.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Well since Siberia has one

Well since Siberia has one of the highest alcoholism rates in the world, finding alcohol shouldn't be a problem at least if you like vodka. Unfortunately, even in Siberia you can't escape the nanny state "drinking is bad for you" fuckers.

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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iwbiek wrote:siberia is

iwbiek wrote:

siberia is starting to sound like my idea of heaven...as long as i had plenty of alcohol and strong pipe tobacco there, i think i'd be all set.

 

  I've had a fantasy that if I were a Capitalist Pig Billionaire that I would like to live somewhere deep in Siberia ( I like remoteness and solitude ) and have a very comfortable, very fortified compound built and hire ex-Spetsnaz for bodyguards.   I would purchase weapons from all over the world, bring them to my land and just have a grand time shooting the hell out of inanimate targets.  I'm talking about acquiring everything from handguns, to shoulder-fired weapons,  to main battle tanks, self-propelled artillery, mobile anti-aircraft systems, ...everything I could get my hands on.  www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs9m5-k_vro

 And I wouldn't be bothering my neighbors because there wouldn't be any.  Awesome.  www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5jROTAB3_w

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.