Question on entropy

Teralek
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Question on entropy

Considering the Universe a isolated system.

Then even if the Universe was not expanding according to the second law of thermodynamics, it could not be eternal in the past, right??

"According to the second law, the entropy of any isolated system, such as the entire universe, never decreases. If the entropy of the universe has no maximum upper bound then eventually the universe will have no thermodynamic free energy to sustain motion or life, that is, the heat death is reached. "

In case string theory, or multiverse theory is right then in order for this infinite process be able to create infinite Universes on a "time basis", the second law of thermodynamics cannot apply to them.


 

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"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Yes, at the start of the

Yes, at the start of the universe, the entropy was effectively zero.

 

I don't understand the last statement... M-theory postulates that different universes may co-exist in parallel branes in more dimensions than we are able to see in our 3d world. However from a thermodynamic point of view I believe these would probably be considered individual isolated systems (if these branes even have entropy in the first place).

 

It does raise an interesting question though - Can they really be considered such, if the big bang was sparked by the collision of two of these branes? Any astrophysicists in the house?

 

 

 


Teralek
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GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

Yes, at the start of the universe, the entropy was effectively zero.

 

I don't understand the last statement... M-theory postulates that different universes may co-exist in parallel branes in more dimensions than we are able to see in our 3d world. However from a thermodynamic point of view I believe these would probably be considered individual isolated systems (if these branes even have entropy in the first place).

 

It does raise an interesting question though - Can they really be considered such, if the big bang was sparked by the collision of two of these branes? Any astrophysicists in the house?

 

OK, I'll elaborate the last comment...

For anything at all to happen you need energy. Available energy. Available energy only exists in systems with entropy less than infinite.

If thermodynamics applies to the Cosmos as a whole and if M-theory is right then the Cosmos as a whole CANNOT be infinite in time or else it would have reached infinite entropy "long ago".

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


Brian37
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You have "theist" under your

You have "theist" under your avatar. So I am not going to dance around this. You can question science all you want, science welcomes the tires getting the shit kicked out of it.

 

But please understand the overwhelming majority of atheists you deal with here, including me have seen this tactic before. Attempt to poke holes in science so the theist can go "AH HA, so there for my pet deity fills in the gap".

 

See if you can spot the pattern.

 

"Science does not explain everything so Allah is the one true god"

"Science does not explain everything so Yahweh is the one true god"

"Science does not explain everything so Jesus is the one true god"

"Science does not explain everything so Vishnu is the one true god"

"Science does not explain everything so the universe is a giant thinking entity"

 

Your problem with questioning entropy is that it has had the shit kicked out of it as a scientific claim and is very solid. It  is not a scientific observation that props up any superstition or woo, be it yours, or Muslims or Hindues or new age nuts like pantheism or Sceintology.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Teralek
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Brian37 wrote:You have

Brian37 wrote:

You have "theist" under your avatar. So I am not going to dance around this. You can question science all you want, science welcomes the tires getting the shit kicked out of it.

I know it has been 10 months since I last logged in here. But I haven't forgot you even though you changed your Avatar. But even if I did forget you this chauvinistic rant yours would definitely remind me of you. Glad to see you haven't changed.

Anyway you should know me by now. I don't need this. There is no hidden agenda on posting this subject. Only curiosity. I didn't put the badge on my Avatar and I don't treat people different according to their skin colour or their badge.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


GodsUseForAMosquito
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 Why does infinity need to

 Why does infinity need to go in both directions of time though? 

 

If I take the set of natural numbers, 1,2,3,4,5 ... to infinity, this is an infinite set, but it has a start point... same with time.. well, it at least tends towards infinite along with entropy..

So why would it have to have reached infinite entropy long ago? If the big bang happened at 1 in our natural number line, our time now may only be around 3... there are literally trillians of years to go before the universe gets anywhere near heat death.  

 


Teralek
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GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

 Why does infinity need to go in both directions of time though? 

 

If I take the set of natural numbers, 1,2,3,4,5 ... to infinity, this is an infinite set, but it has a start point... same with time.. well, it at least tends towards infinite along with entropy..

So why would it have to have reached infinite entropy long ago? If the big bang happened at 1 in our natural number line, our time now may only be around 3... there are literally trillians of years to go before the universe gets anywhere near heat death.  

You agree with me then. Existence started at zero. Or time 1. There is no such thing as before. M theory is wrong.

I've just seen this video which addressed some of my questions and went further! Got an headache after though...  I love Penrose!

 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies