Judge wrong for blasting atheists over 9/11 cross.

Brian37
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Judge wrong for blasting atheists over 9/11 cross.

Washington post opinion article on "faith" and the 9/11 cross.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/judge-atheist-group-takes-separation-of-church-and-state-too-far-on-ground-zero-cr...

Too far? Exactly how does a sectarian religious symbol represent all the dead of 9/11? It assumes that all the victims were Christians. And on top of that, where are the representations of other faiths that are of equal size?

Oh and fyi, the "cross" was cut to proportions AFTER the fact.

Now my personal opinion to this. We are NOT a theocracy. There is a church with it's own cross just a block away which is a private institution. We should not be gang tagging public property with religious symbols. If Christians want their own 9/11 memorial they can have one ON PRIVATE PROPERTY. Since that was a national event covering victims from 80 nationalities and several different faiths, the cross is hardly an inclusive symbol.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Beyond Saving
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 So we should remove all

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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constitutions don't mean

 

constitutions don't mean shit anymore, and governments are just as much businesses as any private company.  their customers are lobbies, and they definitely have a preferred customer list.  the atheist/secularist/humanist lobby just ain't worth dealing with in terms of finances and publicity.  i guarantee you, if an overwhelming majority of white males suddenly became as passionate about misogyny as they are about christianity--and especially if some of those males sat on the board of directors at lockheed, honeywell, phillip morris, dupont, etc.--you'd see real quick that the 19th amendment ain't worth dick.

you want a constitution to count?  make a revolution.  put a couple hundred of those motherfuckers against the wall.

but even then, your new order would only last as long as the popular acclaim lasted.  atheists don't have the "right" to exist in america.  our existence is tolerated, mostly because the vast majority of people don't give a fuck we exist.

you want to turn an iran into an america?  don't send the works of jefferson.  send flatscreens, tivos, x-boxes, recliners, 7-11's, sizzlers, 24-packs of diet coke, cheap timeshares, toyota camrys for no money down and plenty of cupholders, natty light, hagar slacks with adjustable waistbands, one-stop shopping, frozen hamburger patties, gas grills, plastic lawn furniture, john mayer covering lynyrd skynyrd, and a bloated service economy bursting with meaningless white-collar jobs.  then you'll have a society where you're free to bitch as publicly as you want, because you won't get anyone's attention.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


iwbiek
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ok, no idea why my last post

ok, no idea why my last post came out so fucking big...


Brian37
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Beyond Saving wrote: So we

Of course not, but in this case we are not taking about equality of display. That cross is not in the Museum itself, it its outside acting as the bus driver symbolically where the non Christian victims are mere guests who need to sit at the back of the bus. Plus it was retro fit to shape in any case.

 

There are NO other religious symbols there of equal size and display and most of the time when people do this in our history they DO NOT want any shared display, it is a clear attempt at using a tragedy to send the message that we are a "Christian Nation". If any family member of a Muslim or a Jew tried to put up an equal size display these same Christians who put up this cross would bitch a fit. Look at the reaction of Christians when Muslims bought a PRIVATE building, not even public property.

 

And even at one time American Atheists was denied a permit, not to put up a display, but to hold a secular memorial.

 

This is not the tombstone of one individual say like at the National Cemetery. This was an event that affected not only our nation, but the U.S. citizens with backgrounds from 80 nations and an event that had dead represented in all the major religions. The cross being the biggest display was not done to represent pluralism or non Christians, it would be akin to putting a cross on our flag. Not because it is there, but because of the intent of the size. It is a billboard, not a reflection of history.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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iwbiek wrote: constitutions

iwbiek wrote:

 

constitutions don't mean shit anymore, and governments are just as much businesses as any private company.  their customers are lobbies, and they definitely have a preferred customer list.  the atheist/secularist/humanist lobby just ain't worth dealing with in terms of finances and publicity.  i guarantee you, if an overwhelming majority of white males suddenly became as passionate about misogyny as they are about christianity--and especially if some of those males sat on the board of directors at lockheed, honeywell, phillip morris, dupont, etc.--you'd see real quick that the 19th amendment ain't worth dick.

you want a constitution to count?  make a revolution.  put a couple hundred of those motherfuckers against the wall.

but even then, your new order would only last as long as the popular acclaim lasted.  atheists don't have the "right" to exist in america.  our existence is tolerated, mostly because the vast majority of people don't give a fuck we exist.

you want to turn an iran into an america?  don't send the works of jefferson.  send flatscreens, tivos, x-boxes, recliners, 7-11's, sizzlers, 24-packs of diet coke, cheap timeshares, toyota camrys for no money down and plenty of cupholders, natty light, hagar slacks with adjustable waistbands, one-stop shopping, frozen hamburger patties, gas grills, plastic lawn furniture, john mayer covering lynyrd skynyrd, and a bloated service economy bursting with meaningless white-collar jobs.  then you'll have a society where you're free to bitch as publicly as you want, because you won't get anyone's attention.

 

What the fuck do you mean they don't mean shit? If you mean they are ignored, yea. BUT THEY SURE AS HELL DO MEAN SHIT!

 

Without the concept of common law and a free press you end up with the likes of Iran or Stalin or Kim Jong UN or Rober Barron societies like Somalia.

 

But I do agree any system can be gamed and right now global corporatism is gaming our system. Can we do something about that? Only time will tell.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Beyond Saving
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Brian37 wrote:Of course not,

Brian37 wrote:

Of course not, but in this case we are not taking about equality of display. That cross is not in the Museum itself, it its outside acting as the bus driver symbolically where the non Christian victims are mere guests who need to sit at the back of the bus. Plus it was retro fit to shape in any case.

There are NO other religious symbols there of equal size and display and most of the time when people do this in our history they DO NOT want any shared display, it is a clear attempt at using a tragedy to send the message that we are a "Christian Nation". If any family member of a Muslim or a Jew tried to put up an equal size display these same Christians who put up this cross would bitch a fit. Look at the reaction of Christians when Muslims bought a PRIVATE building, not even public property.

You don't put relics in a museum for purposes of equality. You put them there as a testament to what actually happened in history. Of course there are not religious symbols of equal size, because at the event the museum is intended to memorialize, there was no other similar religious symbol present. 

As far as the Muslim building, you will remember that I was quite vocally on the side of the Muslims on that issue. I fail to see how that has any relevance to a cross being put in a museum though. Just because Christians are a bunch of whiners doesn't excuse your whining. 

 

 

Brian37 wrote:

And even at one time American Atheists was denied a permit, not to put up a display, but to hold a secular memorial.

If you voted libertarian you wouldn't need permits. Or you could sue the government for that if you want. I fail to see how that has any relevance as to determining whether the cross is a historical artifact that should be displayed in a museum.  

 

Brian37 wrote:

This is not the tombstone of one individual say like at the National Cemetery. This was an event that affected not only our nation, but the U.S. citizens with backgrounds from 80 nations and an event that had dead represented in all the major religions. The cross being the biggest display was not done to represent pluralism or non Christians, it would be akin to putting a cross on our flag. Not because it is there, but because of the intent of the size. It is a billboard, not a reflection of history.

The size is because that the size it was at ground zero. (Actually, it is slightly smaller because as you pointed out it has been trimmed) The cross was used by Christians as a memorial during the clean up process. It attracted a great deal of attention. That alone makes it an appropriate piece for the museum.

FFS it is just a couple of beams that held together after the towers collapsed. It should be left for humor value alone. It is almost as good as the Virgin Mary grilled cheese. Which should also be in a public museum so that people in the future can look back and laugh at the ridiculous things people thought were sacred. 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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OK, this isn't a cross

OK, this isn't a cross christians made specifically for display, it's an actual artifact. The fact is that a t shape is ridiculously common. Look for it while walking around and be amazed at how common it is. Just because christians ascribe religious value to it doesn't mean it is less an artifact. I don't think there's a good reason to attempt to prevent its display. If the moslems and jews had simple symbols like the cross then they probably would have found fragments appearing to be their religious symbols as well. Good luck finding a star of david in the wreckage of a building. I'd actually be impressed then. But a t? There had to be thousands of them.

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Brian37 wrote: Without the

Brian37 wrote:

 

Without the concept of common law and a free press you end up with the likes of Iran or Stalin or Kim Jong UN or Rober Barron societies like Somalia.

 

 

oh please, do you think those people exist because of a lack of a constitution, or common law or free press?  in fact, do you think common law or free press EVER existed in those places to begin with?  common law and free press were ideas cooked by the rising european bourgeoisie to get out from under the thumb of a decrepit aristocracy, whom they already had more wealth than anyway.  who do you think wrote the magna fuckin' carta?  or the american constitution, for that matter?  some itinerant laborer or yeoman farmer?  no, they were written by the monied classes to serve their interests, i.e., the barons and bourgeois plutocrats, respectively.  the concepts of free press and common law have no more reality than platonic forms or the kantian thing-in-itself.  they only protect you as long as the political majority finds it useful for them to protect you.

you know why the american constitution works at at least 80% capacity?  because we have enough shit to make it work.  our resources are so plentiful, the rulers don't have to resort to starving you.  if we were suddenly brought down to the level of north korea, everyone below the first percentile would be fucked.  and guess what?  i guaran-fuckin'-tee you they wouldn't even bother changing the constitution.  hitler never bothered changing the weimar constitution, and the 1936 soviet constitution made the american one look positively draconian. 

political theories do not equal political realities.  they never have and they never will.  they're nothing more than teddy bears to keep us from being too afraid of the dark.  it doesn't even take stalin or hitler to show us that.  lincoln showed us that, FDR showed us that, and bush jr. showed us that.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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Chuckle

 

iwbiek wrote:

Send flatscreens, tivos, x-boxes, recliners, 7-11's, sizzlers, 24-packs of diet coke, cheap timeshares, toyota camrys for no money down and plenty of cupholders, natty light, hagar slacks with adjustable waistbands, one-stop shopping, frozen hamburger patties, gas grills, plastic lawn furniture, john mayer covering lynyrd skynyrd, and a bloated service economy bursting with meaningless white-collar jobs.  then you'll have a society where you're free to bitch as publicly as you want, because you won't get anyone's attention.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Challenge to atheists

Invent a non-sectarian marker that is an acceptable replacement for all sectarian markers.

Rotsa Ruck.

I think the point is obvious. If one tries to cover all religions there is bound to be problems. What do Buddhists use? Are there any that prohibit or have no use for markers like Zoroastrians?

The nearest useful thing I can think of is the Vietnam Wall on the Mall in DC. Just names carved into stones. (Let god sort them out, sort of.)

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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iwbiek
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:What do

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

What do Buddhists use?

buddhism is a religion that generally doesn't mix with the secular sphere (a given country's indigenous religion usually fulfills that function, e.g. confucianism in china, shinto in japan, various theistic cults in sri lanka, etc.).  i'm not sure if such a thing as a buddhist war memorial exists.  the stone edicts of ashoka might be an example, but the "dharma" he promises to spread and protect is pluralistic and not exclusively buddhist.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson