Well well. Obama gets it (Palestine Vs Israel)

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Well well. Obama gets it (Palestine Vs Israel)

In a speech deploying his full range of rhetorical gifts, the US president first cast himself as an unyielding friend of Israel before appealing to ordinary Israelis by asking them to recognise that Palestinians shared their hopes and aspirations, but were being denied the right of an independent state.
~
“It is not just when settler violence against Palestinians goes unpunished,” Mr Obama said. “It is not right to prevent Palestinians from farming their lands; to restrict a student’s ability to move around the West Bank; or to displace Palestinian families from their home.
“Neither occupation nor expulsion is the answer. Just as Israelis built a state in their homeland, Palestinians have a right to be a free people in their own land.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9946665/Impassioned-Barack-Obamas-direct-appeal-to-Israeli-citizens-fo...


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I never expected a US

I never expected a US president to have figured it out. Maybe my expectations were too low.
I'd have been very interested to see what he could do with that knowledge in the 90's, when the majority of the world was firmly behind Arafat and Palestine.

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Hold on now. I do agree that

Hold on now. I do agree that he is bucking Israel by walking a tightrope RIGHTFULLY SO.

But, the problem with both sides is that the only way a TWO STATE solution can work is if both states are SECULAR. But since Israel wants a Jewish based constitution and Palestine wants a Muslim based constitution all separating them would do is allow for an arms race.

Until these idiots on both sides realize that common law and not religious law is good governance, they will be stupidly and needlessly locked in this death spiral, TWO STATES OR NO STATE.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Actually, Israel will be a

Actually, Israel will be a muslim state within 50 years if current trends continue.
And they don't need to be secular to not war with each other. Until recently Turkey was one of Israel's biggest allies in the region. And Turkey is muslim.

People fail to realise that religion might be a huge problem in the world, but it has effectively NOTHING to do with the constant middle east conflicts. The reasons the conflicts began were religious in nature, but the reason they won't end has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with policy.

You force Israel back into its 1940s borders and prevent them from cracking the whip on Palestine, and simultaneously lock up all the extremism spouting fucknuts on both sides of the border, and the whole reason Palestine fires rockets and suicide bombers Israel's way will dry up. Palestinians don't want Israel wiped out because of their religion. They want them gone because there's an Israeli tank parked across the street which just drove through a families home.

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Vastet wrote:Actually,

Vastet wrote:
Actually, Israel will be a muslim state within 50 years if current trends continue. And they don't need to be secular to not war with each other. Until recently Turkey was one of Israel's biggest allies in the region. And Turkey is muslim. People fail to realise that religion might be a huge problem in the world, but it has effectively NOTHING to do with the constant middle east conflicts. The reasons the conflicts began were religious in nature, but the reason they won't end has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with policy. You force Israel back into its 1940s borders and prevent them from cracking the whip on Palestine, and simultaneously lock up all the extremism spouting fucknuts on both sides of the border, and the whole reason Palestine fires rockets and suicide bombers Israel's way will dry up. Palestinians don't want Israel wiped out because of their religion. They want them gone because there's an Israeli tank parked across the street which just drove through a families home.

 

I am not concerned with "trends". Life and power shifts over time. The "nones" are also increasing in America and the fastest pace of our segment of society. What I am concerned about is our ability as a species to cooperate. I would no more favor a Muslim dominated Israel than Muslims would want a Jewish dominated Palestine , anymore than you or I like having a religious flag stuck in our government symbols.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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And I'm telling you the

And I'm telling you the religion is irrelevant. The reason an educated Palestinian woman straps a bomb to her chest isn't religious. It's because she's treated worse than the average criminal in any American jail.

Ignore the real problems and you invite them to continue to escalate.

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You'll be waitting a bit

You'll be waitting a bit longer than 50 years, Vastet. I'll give you a + on pointing out that the conflict has little to do with religion.

The problem with your take  is that there are few in this dilemma that are interested in peaceful resolution; moderates (particularly Palestinian Christians) on Palestine's side of the various walls have been fleeing to greener pastures for some time now. Israel, on the other hand, has the confidence, technology and military training to keep Palestine walled in tiny vectors for the remainder of it's existence. This is largely because of it's strong military partnership with the US. Frankly, with all that our strong ties to Israel cost us I'm at a loss for why we're still such friends with them, but that is a matter best left for another thread.

You're right about most of the why, just not about what would happen if Israel decided to play nice. Neither side has much of a reason to seek peace at the moment.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Well I did mention you'd

Well I did mention you'd have to lock up the extremists on both sides. I don't think that would be as easy as it sounds though.

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Vastet wrote: Until recently

Vastet wrote:
Until recently Turkey was one of Israel's biggest allies in the region. And Turkey is muslim.

 

Turkey has a high muslim population (>90%) BUT it has a secular constitution and no official state religion. Their laws specifically disallow any religiosity in political parties or the wearing of religious symbols such as headgear in government institutions, as well as enforcing schools to be non-faith-based.

 

 


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I didn't mean to imply

I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I simply think the fact a predominantly jewish and a predominantly muslim state can be allies is sufficient evidence that secular governments aren't necessary to stem the violence. Even if the government has a strong divide between church and state, a 90% muslim majority in a democracy effectively renders that moot. The people still vote according to faith, so the religion is still heavily influential on all policies.

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vastet has it right. 

vastet has it right.  religion is just a smokescreen the politicians use to dupe uneducated peasants into bombing buses.  if the religion disappeared, they'd manufacture another smokescreen.

in its origins, the state of israel is much more secular than we often realize.  the jewish ideology that gave birth to it was far more nationalistic than religious.  here in slovakia i've met a lot of israeli students who come here to study.  now they may be loud, obnoxious, pretentious twats who talk so the whole restaurant can hear them and they may dress like stereotypical persians, but one thing they almost always aren't is religious.

as for both states being secular, well, we all know secular states never bomb the shit out of each other...

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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OBAMA wrote:It is not right

OBAMA wrote:
It is not right to prevent Palestinians from farming their lands

And why exactly is it 'their land'? Did they create it? No. The Jewish verision of God says it is not their land, the Arab version of God says it does. Me thinks whoever wages war best get to own land.

Too many people and too little land. War and conflict is enevitable. How the fuck is peace possible unless a solution to this problem is addressed?

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iwbiek wrote:as for both

iwbiek wrote:

as for both states being secular, well, we all know secular states never bomb the shit out of each other...

True. It is easier to dupe the religious into going to wars than benefit no one. But I think the real reason is because more secular societies have lower birth rates, thus lowering the stresses that lead to war.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:iwbiek wrote:as

EXC wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

as for both states being secular, well, we all know secular states never bomb the shit out of each other...

True. It is easier to dupe the religious into going to wars than benefit no one. But I think the real reason is because more secular societies have lower birth rates, thus lowering the stresses that lead to war.

 

 

i was being sarcastic.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:EXC

iwbiek wrote:

EXC wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

as for both states being secular, well, we all know secular states never bomb the shit out of each other...

True. It is easier to dupe the religious into going to wars than benefit no one. But I think the real reason is because more secular societies have lower birth rates, thus lowering the stresses that lead to war.

 

 

i was being sarcastic.

There has never been a truly secular society. The closest there has been is modern day Scandinavia/Northern Europe where there aren't pressures to go to war since the birth rate has dropped so much since the last wars.

God’s little rabbits: Religious people out-reproduce secular ones by a landslide

So there is a high correlation between secularism and less war.

 

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote: There has never

EXC wrote:

 

There has never been a truly secular society. The closest there has been is modern day Scandinavia/Northern Europe where there aren't pressures to go to war since the birth rate has dropped so much since the last wars.

God’s little rabbits: Religious people out-reproduce secular ones by a landslide

So there is a high correlation between secularism and less war.

 

 

the only thing a secular state is is a state that claims to remain officially neutral in matters of religion.  that's it, that's all.  i'm not sure what you mean by "truly secular society," but i wasn't talking about society and neither was brian.  i was talking about state, which is totally different.  i don't think even brian is under the illusion that a "secular society" (by which i assume you mean a society where the vast majority of individuals have no religious preference) is possible in israel/palestine.

plenty of secular states have gone to war with each other, in varying degrees of severity.  the soviet union and china, the US and korea/vietnam/germany, britain and argentina, britain and iceland, to name the most obvious ones.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson


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iwbiek wrote:the only thing

iwbiek wrote:

the only thing a secular state is is a state that claims to remain officially neutral in matters of religion.

Israel and the USA make that claim of freedom of religion, government neutrality. But they are hardly secular societies. If Palestine became a state it would probably would be officially neurtal. But they'll be at each others throat as long as there is the 'sacred duty to God to procreate'  and the "God gave us this land' bozos on both sides.

iwbiek wrote:

  that's it, that's all.  i'm not sure what you mean by "truly secular society," but i wasn't talking about society and neither was brian.  i was talking about state, which is totally different.  i don't think even brian is under the illusion that a "secular society" (by which i assume you mean a society where the vast majority of individuals have no religious preference) is possible in israel/palestine.

I would define a secular society as being the vast majority of people don't make personal and political decisions based on religious or other mystical ideas such as a master race or divine leaders. I think it is possible to have a secular society there because as you observed most Jews aren't that into religion.

iwbiek wrote:

plenty of secular states have gone to war with each other, in varying degrees of severity.  the soviet union and china, the US and korea/vietnam/germany, britain and argentina, britain and iceland, to name the most obvious ones.

Soviet Union/China had irrational concepts like superior race, divine infallible leaders, inevitable victory, cult of personality, duty to procreate, homosexuality is evil, etc... As has been discussed here before Hitler/Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot were not really atheists, they made themselves god in the eyes of their followers, communism was the religion. And the wars with Britain weren't much, one side gave up when they did not see a path to victory.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Rational discourse with EXC

Rational discourse with EXC is impossible. He never actually reads your argument, he just pops out strawmen and pure fantasy.

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Vastet wrote:Rational

Vastet wrote:
Rational discourse with EXC is impossible. He never actually reads your argument, he just pops out strawmen and pure fantasy.

Of course this statement is a strawman againt me. You can't explain why my statments are "strawman and pure fantasy", the reader is just supposed to take it on faith you are correct.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC's posting

Example #1:

iwbiek wrote:
i wasn't talking about society and neither was brian

EXC wrote:
they are hardly secular societies.

Example #2:
EXC's posting history:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/user/exc/track

Point, set, match. GG.

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It was a game?

It was a game?


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Vastet wrote:Example #1:

DP


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Vastet wrote:Example #1:

 

Vastet wrote:
Example #1:
iwbiek wrote:
i wasn't talking about society and neither was brian

Brian37 wrote:

The "nones" are also increasing in America and the fastest pace of our segment of society.

 

If we're talking about secular state vs non-secular state as the official position of the government, then Iwbiek examples are all invalid. Iceland has a state religion, England a national religion and Argentina gives special recognition to Catholism. The state of Israel is officially more secular than any of these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_religion

Also the Soviet Union and Red China were far from "Neutral in matters of religion". They outlawed and persecuted many religious groups. So he gave me a definition of secular states but then none of the states he gave as examples fit the definition.

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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BTW, since you and Obama

BTW, since you and Obama believe in the concept of land being returned to the ancestors of the original inhabitants who own it. When will Obama return Hawaii to the native Hawaiians, the Southwest USA to Mexico? When will you be leaving Canada as Aboriginal Land rights force you off their land? Let me guess different rules, when you're the one being asked leave.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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Mmmm

 

 

can't help thinking religion incorporates nationalism and racism, among other things, and these inherent bigotries do contribute to the general dislike the 2 sides feel for each other. 

I wonder what would happen if the Palestinians tried a placatory tone. If they'd joined Israel from the start they could have outbred the jewish folks and gained a dominant voice politically peacefully perhaps. 

Personally, I'm no longer able to warm to either side. The Palestinian leadership calls for the destruction of Israel, the Israelis continue to walk all over the human rights of the Palestinians. 

Think Israel should apply whatever moral consistency it can muster, allow the creation of a Palestinian state on the past agreed borders and try to end as much bullshit as possible. 

This done, the other side's good or bad behaviour can be seen in a clearer light. The way things are it's such a disaster there can be nothing but recriminations. 

In either case, I think jews and muslims will continue to loathe one another generally. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:can't

Atheistextremist wrote:

can't help thinking religion incorporates nationalism and racism, among other things, and these inherent bigotries do contribute to the general dislike the 2 sides feel for each other. 

I wonder what would happen if the Palestinians tried a placatory tone. If they'd joined Israel from the start they could have outbred the jewish folks and gained a dominant voice politically peacefully perhaps. 

The funny thing is if Palestine ever became a state, they would have the same laws in regards to religion as Israel(no state supported religion, religious freedom) and ethnic discrimination would be officially banned. The same laws that Israel has now.

But, the Palestinians don't want to be part of a country with the name Israel even if there is no official favoritism for Jews. Jews don't want live in country called Palestine even with the same laws as Israel. It's like the gay marriage vs. civil union debate where even if they are legally the same thing, people find them acceptable or unacceptable only because of what it is called not what it legally implies.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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EXC wrote:BTW, since you and

DP


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Having a state religion

Having a state religion doesn't make you a religious state. Unless the religion has direct control, the state is secular by definition.

2-0

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EXC wrote:BTW, since you and

EXC wrote:

BTW, since you and Obama believe in the concept of land being returned to the ancestors of the original inhabitants who own it. When will Obama return Hawaii to the native Hawaiians, the Southwest USA to Mexico? When will you be leaving Canada as Aboriginal Land rights force you off their land? Let me guess different rules, when you're the one being asked leave.

Strawman.

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EXC wrote:Brian37 wrote:The

EXC wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

The "nones" are also increasing in America and the fastest pace of our segment of society.

don't be asinine.  you know as well as i do that brian's thesis was that palestine and israel must be secular states if they are to coexist peacefully.  anything he might have said about society was ancillary.  however, if he actually did confuse state and society, well, it's brian.  am i supposed to be surprised?

EXC wrote:

Iwbiek examples are all invalid. Iceland has a state religion, England a national religion and Argentina gives special recognition to Catholism. The state of Israel is officially more secular than any of these.

ok, so some of my examples are invalid.  and yet, my life goes on...

besides, they're not all invalid.  the US, soviet union, china, vietnam, nazi germany, and korea are or were all officially secular.  ironically, the countries with official or semi-official churches had the less serious conflicts.  the cod wars and the falklands war were mere firecrackers compared to wwii, the korean, and vietnam wars.

if anything, it shows that societies can be mostly secular even with official religions, which, once again, sort of belies brian's point.

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson