supposed exorcism I witnessed at pentecostal church camp 20 years ago-still baffled...

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supposed exorcism I witnessed at pentecostal church camp 20 years ago-still baffled...

First time poster here-

36 year old male here, extremely sheltered and strongly indoctrinated from day one witnessing tongues, laughing in the spirit, dancing/drunk in the spirit and slain in the spirit weekly. I couldn't go to drive in movies, ride public transportation, watch ET, scooby doo, flinstones, smurfs etc. because mom says the devil is behind them. For as long as I can remember mom has told me satan goes out of his way to tell me I'm no good and she says I believe his lies. Whatever. After dad passed 10 years ago she has immersed herself in Joel Osteen and has lost it-her prozac needs checked I speculate. I spent 8 years at a state job as a scientific technician and it changed my process of thinking and I started questioning 1.5 years ago for the first time. I was shocked how obvious it was that it is all a lie. The shock turned into joy and relief being saved from eternal flames which I was sure I was headed to after committing blasphemy at 13 in a fit of rage- I didn't mean what I said at the time but I still said it. On the flipside, going to heaven sounded dreadful, petty and materialistic to me. I was actually scared that at some point in eternity mankind would act up somehow and unravel the very fabric of heaven. I now see how ridiculous I was to believe the entire bible and live for jesus. My mom pretty much shuns me now that I don't believe and sees me as a fool. Joy turned into doubts and fear of being wrong about this but at this point I would never rebelieve the lie. When I was 13 and at church camp, a boy my age started screaming and flailing about on the floor. This went on for about 10 minutes and 5 or 6 camp counselors/pastors held him down and actually had a tough time making it look like they were struggling to contain this 13 year old boy. The head pastor got up and explained that they had just cast out 9 different evil spirits. I later found out that the boy was a foster child who had played with ouili boards in the past. As a "christian" this further solidified my faith in god and fear of the devil.

This incident sabotaged my initial attempts at deconverting- I didn't let it stop me and chalked it up as being an anomaly. Since it obviously wasn't an exorcism and the likelihood that the camp staff/counselers and pastors put this kid up to it staging an event is unlikely based on their intelligence I then thought the kid musta had a seizure and them struggling to contain/save him were further complicating the situation. I myself am a practical joker and appreciate a good prank so I can see this kid putting on a show for us and maybe the pastors were scared of supposed demons going in them so they didn't press him down super hard to the floor(we were taught christians can be demon possessed if they have certain types of sin in their life such as rock music or sexual immorality. At his young age there was no way he could have fully been aware of the psychological damage said stunt would do. I'm sure he had pent up anger being in the foster system and probably thought we were a bunch of freaks as people were talking in tongues and slain all over- including me. They kept pushing me backwards and told me not to resist, I was confused and thought I must be resisting so I went with it and laid there a half hour in a state of ecstacy that I now realize was just my brain chemistry firing differently. I can still speak in tongues and even asked god to take this "gift" away yet I can repeat the "words" without stutter to a T. Obviously I made it up and so did everyone else.

Another possibility is the poor kid was scared that week after learning he would burn in hell for playing with an ouiji board and had a panic attack and everyone mistaked it for an exorcism. If thats the case then there could be major adverse psychological issues making sense of the incident. Personally, I am angry that after we got home it was never brought up again and I was just supposed to accept it like it was normal and he had it coming for playing with fire.

I posted this in the hopes that someone may point out any alternative hypothesis on this virtual exorcism as it's got me baffled and curious as to the psychology behind the matter. Any and all suggestions appreciated-thanks.

 


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Sorry for the pix, but that's the way I felt when I read your post for the first time. I had to read it three times because I usually would drift off and find a pencil on my desk to play with...

I hope you aren't disappointed but there is no such thing as exorcism. Ever heard this one? How many witches died during the Salem witch trials? Answer? None. there is no such thing as a witch.

So how many successful exorcisms have there been? Answer? None. There is no such thing as the devil, devils, demons, god, etc, etc.

 

 


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Welcome to the Forum

Welcome to the forum. As a former Christian who de-converted, I can understand the fear and such that is difficult to overcome. (I was not raised Pentecostal, but I can imagine what being in such an environment for a young kid must have been like). I bet it was quite frightening. Well, I think there are a lot of things that could have had something to do with it. Kid could have just been an epileptic and having a seizure, (not unlike the famous tact that I have heard of snake handlers using, when they milk all of the poison out of the snakes, prior to their  fake miracle) and the church people cashed in on it.

Kid could have just been experiencing the sheer terror of group suggestions.

There is an interesting study about the group mentality and the power of suggestion that even touches upon this very subject, I'll see if I still have it bookmarked and I can post it here.

Anyway, there are plenty of reasonable explanations for what had happened.

I am glad that you found a new method of thinking through your new career that lead you away from that path.

We have some former Pentecostals on here, so I am sure that they would probably have similiar stories.

Again, welcome to the forum.

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Yeah, I'm thankful these

Thanks for the advice and for the welcome! I got a kick out of the cartoon- taking it as a young kid having fun and being silly.  Yeah, I'm thankful these days that I can now agree that there is no God or Devil, therefore all exorcisms are a sham. It's just the psychology behind the incident has left me extremely confused as to whether it was a prank, a medical issue or if it was put on by the camp staff to scare us into believing and if so, what other extreme measures do they take to "save" a soul.

Who knows, the kid could've been trippin on lsd or psilocybin and we were the ones who gave him a bad trip. Whatever the reason, a lot of lives were impacted that evening in a negative way whether the witnesses realize it or not.

 

 

 

 

 


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Welcome movin4ward

 

evil son of evangelical minister and baptist missionary here. My mum believes I will roast, too. Congrats on thinking your way out of the mess your parents put you into. I am the only survivor in my family. Everyone else loves them some jaysus. I don't know anything specific about exorcism but I think its actually a form of physical and emotional assault in which the victim is abused and threatened by the pastor/leaders into reactive fits and then bought back to 'normal' when, after the demons are alleged to have been cast out, the christians act more gently to the person they are abusing. 

Watch this video of Australian jewish agnostic atheist John Safran being exorcised of demons he is alleged to have been possessed of during the making of a religious TV show. You can see how the physical and emotional abuse he is being subjected to impacts on him as the 'exorcism' progresses and he regresses into a state of extreme emotion where all he's able to communicate is his pain. The exorcist is a vicious bully. As an abused child I may be showing some confirmation bias in my reasoning here but I think not. Safran is being physically assaulted and racially abused while being pinned down and his psyche collapses in the face of it. No demons required. Just for the record, if I witnessed something like this happening I would react as if I was witnessing a violent assault - I would show zero tolerance.

As for the kid at your jesus camp he was probably just throwing a paddy after drinking too much red cordial. The chance he was possessed by supernatural beings is almost certainly zero. And stick around. This site has helped me a hell of a lot over the past 3 years or so. Just being able to share this stuff is a huge relief.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfphh7R9gH0

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Yup, no fun havin the entire

Yup, no fun havin the entire family perceive us as damned. I divorced a pentecostal preachers daughter a few years back after she cheated on me- it was a blessing in disguise and thankfully we had no children.

I watched all 3 videos and was disgusted by the sociopathic, unempathetic nature of the preacher. John, having ingested peyote in the past, was under extreme stress and might have been experiencing a flashback or just having a psychotic break from reality. His performance paled in comparison to the show I witnessed.

This site has been very helpful and informative, I definitely plan on sticking around- thanks again guys.

 


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Welcome! My guess is

Welcome!
My guess is seizure.

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movin4ward wrote:Thanks for

movin4ward wrote:

Thanks for the advice and for the welcome! I got a kick out of the cartoon- taking it as a young kid having fun and being silly.  Yeah, I'm thankful these days that I can now agree that there is no God or Devil, therefore all exorcisms are a sham. It's just the psychology behind the incident has left me extremely confused as to whether it was a prank, a medical issue or if it was put on by the camp staff to scare us into believing and if so, what other extreme measures do they take to "save" a soul.

Who knows, the kid could've been trippin on lsd or psilocybin and we were the ones who gave him a bad trip. Whatever the reason, a lot of lives were impacted that evening in a negative way whether the witnesses realize it or not.

I like using the cartoons to lighten things up, plus it helps me convey my emotions.

Having been Catholic I can understand exorcisms, but as people are human they warp and twist things to fit their warped and twisted minds. Exorcisms have been modified through the years with jews (rarely having them) because a soul has attached itself to a living person (dybbuk) for harmless reasons, to fundamental christians who perform them as common as Sunday brunch.

Exorcisms rarely happened, ever, until the 1960's when main stream douchebags got a hold of the idea of using it to "shock" people. I've seen several videos and it is an extremely exciting dramatic long process. For a borderline believer it can really have a strong affect on people making them believers. Along with drugs used to alter the mind, the person being "exorcised" could mentally be tricked in to believing it really happened.

Before the 1960's stories of exorcisms did not exist in an plentiful forms. There was one play written called "The Dybbuk" in 1914 then all of a sudden in the 1970's it becomes extremely popular (profitable) to write about it. I often refer this to the same process of UFOs which rarely appeared in society then back in the 1940's sightings literally went through the roof. UFOs became popular (profitable) so the sightings increased.

Before the jews it is believed the story of such things goes back to Zoroastrianism (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism#Eric_Sorensen.27s_Hypothesis), but I believe "real" possessions are 1) a person faking it or 2) a person with mental issues.

With option 1) above, I believe is the most common as people who commit crimes say "the devil made me do it" which is a cop-out for not taking responsibility for your actions.

In option 2), people are really sick mentally. They seem possessed but in reality suffer from a multitude of psychological problems which require medication and therapy.

 


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movin4ward wrote:Yup, no fun

movin4ward wrote:

Yup, no fun havin the entire family perceive us as damned. I divorced a pentecostal preachers daughter a few years back after she cheated on me- it was a blessing in disguise and thankfully we had no children.

 

I know this is a erroneous statement, but it seems that people who are in to religion sure do sin an awful lot; especially when it comes to sex. I've know several people who came from strict, religious backgrounds and when they got free of their parents the fuck fest began.

One girl did it deliberately to screw her parents idea of their "little angel" but the others I believe were mentally messed up. Their fucking every thing that moved was more of an issue of dealing with emotional stress and abuse.

 


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

movin4ward wrote:

Yup, no fun havin the entire family perceive us as damned. I divorced a pentecostal preachers daughter a few years back after she cheated on me- it was a blessing in disguise and thankfully we had no children.

 

I know this is a erroneous statement, but it seems that people who are in to religion sure do sin an awful lot; especially when it comes to sex. I've know several people who came from strict, religious backgrounds and when they got free of their parents the fuck fest began.

One girl did it deliberately to screw her parents idea of their "little angel" but the others I believe were mentally messed up. Their fucking every thing that moved was more of an issue of dealing with emotional stress and abuse.

 

I know that I went through a very promiscuous period right after I finally gave up religion for good.

There was quite a number of one night stands and such.

Looking back on it now, I do think it had something to do with the indoctrinated upbringing.

I mean, the very first time that I actually kissed a girl as a teen, I felt like I was damned to hell and could not wait to get to confession to talk about it.

Any pictures or magazines that hinted at sexuality could earn you some severe beatings when I was a child.

I do think, that there was some spiteful anger at religion for stealing most of my youth when I threw the god meme off.

 I did go through a period where I slept with every woman that consented or was interested.

It took YEARS before I could erase that feeling that guilt-ridden feeling that came with that.

Even when I began this relationship that I am in now (which is a monogamous one) there was still that hint of guilt about "living in sin" in the back of my mind.

While a lot of that is gone, I think a lot of it is gone, BECAUSE I am aware of where that stems from. A lifetime of indoctrination.

I know that my girlfriend used to point out to me that certain aspects of my behavior seemed to have that "guilt-ridden" religious overtone to it.

It took me a while before I could see it.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I looked for that link

I looked for that link about the power of group suggestion and could not find it.

However, (I know that people whom have been around here for a long time are probably sick of hearing me bring it up) there was a book that helped me with a whole lot of this at first.

It is called, Why God Won't go Away by Andrew Neuberg.

The first half is the only half that I actually reccomend reading. I'll tell you why in a moment.

The first half covers research that was done with Buddhist monks, Christians and Muslims. It deals with the effect of the brain patterns during supposedly "religious experiences" and demonstrates what occurs in the brain when an individual believes that he is "contacting" a deity.

Here is the thing, irregardless of the religion, the person has the same exact parts of the brain that are stimulated when meditating, praying  or what not. Same thing with lunatic fringe religious fanatics that range from cave dwelling holy men to people bowing in church.

The part of the brain that is stimulated during these practices gives one a feeling of "oneness" and blocks the parts of the brain that gives one a feeling of individuality.

Now, where the second half of the book fails, in my opinion only, is that it touches upon the "positive'' aspects of religion and makes the naked assertion that people are better off with it.

It is almost like the scientists that wrote that book are apologizing for explaining away the phenomenon of religion. : "Sorry everyone, your religious experiences are a by-product of the brain, but keep having them."

However, there is a study on the group dynamics of glossolia (speaking in tongues) and the neuroscientific explanations of the practice.

Contrary to what people believe, the practice of speaking in tongues is not limited to just the Pentecostal faith. Here is a good starting point to find more references about the practice :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

Granted, wiki is not really reliable worth a shit, but it is a good starting point for finding references. I don't believe 90% of the crap I read on there, but I get a general idea and then use the cited references at the bottom of the page.

Of course, their is always the new god of mankind to consult after wiki, and that is the electronic god of google. Smiling

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I know this is a erroneous statement, but it seems that people who are in to religion sure do sin an awful lot; especially when it comes to sex. I've know several people who came from strict, religious backgrounds and when they got free of their parents the fuck fest began.

One girl did it deliberately to screw her parents idea of their "little angel" but the others I believe were mentally messed up. Their fucking every thing that moved was more of an issue of dealing with emotional stress and abuse.

 

I know that I went through a very promiscuous period right after I finally gave up religion for good.

There was quite a number of one night stands and such.

Looking back on it now, I do think it had something to do with the indoctrinated upbringing.

I mean, the very first time that I actually kissed a girl as a teen, I felt like I was damned to hell and could not wait to get to confession to talk about it.

Any pictures or magazines that hinted at sexuality could earn you some severe beatings when I was a child.

I do think, that there was some spiteful anger at religion for stealing most of my youth when I threw the god meme off.

 I did go through a period where I slept with every woman that consented or was interested.

It took YEARS before I could erase that feeling that guilt-ridden feeling that came with that.

Even when I began this relationship that I am in now (which is a monogamous one) there was still that hint of guilt about "living in sin" in the back of my mind.

While a lot of that is gone, I think a lot of it is gone, BECAUSE I am aware of where that stems from. A lifetime of indoctrination.

I know that my girlfriend used to point out to me that certain aspects of my behavior seemed to have that "guilt-ridden" religious overtone to it.

It took me a while before I could see it.

I had guilt when I started to masturbate. It quickly went away as I masturbated more and more, even though at that time I was attending church (forced).

I got my first tug job by a girl down the street when I was twelve. She was the same age as me and she was the one who initiated the experience. She had several older brothers and she told me that they were doing this thing with their pee-pee. Neither of us ever felt guilty about it even years later when we spoke about the experience.

Through out my years of sexual exploration I never felt guilty about sex. I wasn't one of those people going out and taking advantage of others or manipulating them just to get sex. I knew of people who did that sort of thing and I disliked them enough not to hang around with them once I found out who they were.

Much later in life, when I was adult, I bumped in to some of those people. One of them had become a born again christian and was extremely serious about "witnessing" others to except jesus. When I brought up the subject of their past he told me that he had been forgiven by jesus and that he had a clean soul. When I asked him if he spoke to jesus he said that he felt his presence and love. He knew he had been forgiven. Doh. When I asked him about "those women he took advantage of" his reply was that they needed to find jesus on their own and it wasn't his concern.

I really disliked his "holier than thou" attitude. Still the same guy but singing a different tune. As long as he felt good and was happy then the world was right.

Anyway, that entire guilt thing is purely personal. Each person has different levels of guilt and only the sociopaths and psychopaths are the ones who really don't felt any guilt about the shit that they do.

 

 


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Correct

Vastet wrote:
Welcome! My guess is seizure.

No guess, it's a fact.


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harleysportster wrote:It is

harleysportster wrote:
It is called, Why God Won't go Away by Andrew Neuberg.

The first half is the only half that I actually reccomend reading. I'll tell you why in a moment.

The first half covers research that was done with Buddhist monks, Christians and Muslims. It deals with the effect of the brain patterns during supposedly "religious experiences" and demonstrates what occurs in the brain when an individual believes that he is "contacting" a deity.

Here is the thing, irregardless of the religion, the person has the same exact parts of the brain that are stimulated when meditating, praying  or what not. Same thing with lunatic fringe religious fanatics that range from cave dwelling holy men to people bowing in church.

The part of the brain that is stimulated during these practices gives one a feeling of "oneness" and blocks the parts of the brain that gives one a feeling of individuality.

Granted, wiki is not really reliable worth a shit, but it is a good starting point for finding references. I don't believe 90% of the crap I read on there, but I get a general idea and then use the cited references at the bottom of the page.

Of course, their is always the new god of mankind to consult after wiki, and that is the electronic god of google. Smiling

 

I agree with the entire "god experience" thing in the brain. I've seen studies concerning the LSD trips in a church and the most recently researcher who can stimulated your brain using electron-magnets and make you feel god is in your presence.

The book sounds good, except for that part about "go ahead and do it anyway".

I like Wiki but you need to be careful not to accept it at face value. I usually go and inspect the references given and do much more research. Too many people go to Wiki for information and then accept it as the one true source.

 


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digitalbeachbum

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Through out my years of sexual exploration I never felt guilty about sex. I wasn't one of those people going out and taking advantage of others or manipulating them just to get sex. I knew of people who did that sort of thing and I disliked them enough not to hang around with them once I found out who they were.

Yeah, I never believed in taking advantage of people either. I simply liked having many partners. A part of me knew there were instances where I could have said the three magic words (I love you) just to get someone in bed, and that's a line that I never believed in crossing. There were a couple of girls that it was obvious from the get go that they were looking for a lifelong companion and I had to make it very clear on the front end, that was NOT what I was looking for. I knew that engaging in any sexual activity where one that thinks there is real love and the other sees it as just a one night stand was just not the way that I wanted to do things. One freeing aspect of my sex exploration, was the realization that my standards for how I treated other women were because of my own integrity and had nothing to do with a god. I think that once I realized that sex was not a big deal, and that my moral standards were mine own and not from god, that also hampered my guilt.

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Much later in life, when I was adult, I bumped in to some of those people. One of them had become a born again christian and was extremely serious about "witnessing" others to except jesus. When I brought up the subject of their past he told me that he had been forgiven by jesus and that he had a clean soul. When I asked him if he spoke to jesus he said that he felt his presence and love. He knew he had been forgiven. Doh. When I asked him about "those women he took advantage of" his reply was that they needed to find jesus on their own and it wasn't his concern.

I really disliked his "holier than thou" attitude. Still the same guy but singing a different tune. As long as he felt good and was happy then the world was right.

My church was filled with people like that growing up and I could not STAND those people either.

It was not just sex that behavior got excused with. I knew of thieves that felt they never had to pay back what they had stolen, etc. Like you said, as long as they were saved, everything was fine with them. Same con artists, different tunes.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Old Seer wrote:Vastet

Old Seer wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Welcome! My guess is seizure.

No guess, it's a fact.

How would you know for certain ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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movin4ward wrote:First time

movin4ward wrote:

First time poster here-

36 year old male here, extremely sheltered and strongly indoctrinated from day one witnessing tongues, laughing in the spirit, dancing/drunk in the spirit and slain in the spirit weekly.

Hello.

Would you please explain me what do these mean? I know speaking in tongues, I knew a group of pentecostals who were really good at it. Too bad I didn't record anything, it sounded very cultish/scary.

But what is laughing in the spirit, drunk in the spirit and... slain in the spirit, WTF? 

I know we can induce ourselves some very trippy experiences, the people I know (drugless hippies) just use sanskrit mantras and dynamic meditations to get in da zone. It seems a universal human need, to chant, dance and act crazy. What you describes doesn't sound like something they got from Bible. Who makes this stuff up? They devolved into tribalism and now I suppose they create their own mythology and rituals. Too bad the pope left them unsupervised. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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My youngest daughter

harleysportster wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Welcome! My guess is seizure.

No guess, it's a fact.

How would you know for certain ?

Has had epilepsy from birth. The symptoms that are normally applied in the claims of casting out devils are the very same. They never state however if their casting out evil spirits is permanent. We never get the story after the fact do we. In ancient times the effects of diseases that we know today as common illnesses were said to be of evil spirits. The Salem witch hunts were because of "ergot" a fungus in wheat flour from wheat rust that caused high temps and illusions. The only evil spirits that we know of is ---people. Nothing more then the person that contrives it.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Speaking in tonges

Luminon wrote:

movin4ward wrote:

First time poster here-

36 year old male here, extremely sheltered and strongly indoctrinated from day one witnessing tongues, laughing in the spirit, dancing/drunk in the spirit and slain in the spirit weekly.

Hello.

Would you please explain me what do these mean? I know speaking in tongues, I knew a group of pentecostals who were really good at it. Too bad I didn't record anything, it sounded very cultish/scary.

But what is laughing in the spirit, drunk in the spirit and... slain in the spirit, WTF? 

I know we can induce ourselves some very trippy experiences, the people I know (drugless hippies) just use sanskrit mantras and dynamic meditations to get in da zone. It seems a universal human need, to chant, dance and act crazy. What you describes doesn't sound like something they got from Bible. Who makes this stuff up? They devolved into tribalism and now I suppose they create their own mythology and rituals. Too bad the pope left them unsupervised. 

in the bible is when one is speaking in one language and the listeners are of several languages, and the listeners each hear the speaker in their own. The speaking in tongues today is of no coherent language and there-fore not the same as in the NT. How this works would be put in the "miracle" category. How miracles come about---we don't know--so we don't try to explain them or hold to their actuality. But, today,s is mere babble.

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Sexual permiscuality and

Sexual permiscuality and whiskey drinking reared its ugly head after the divorce-and before my deconversion. After realizing I'd been duped by the church and the fam to believe in talking snakes and the like, I changed for the better-6 months alcohol free and no sex in 7 months. I now view humans as equals rather than the chosen and unchosen- this led me to garner more empathy and respect for the opposite sex. Instead of viewing the planet as satans kingdom therefore worthy of the destruction our earth receives, I now see it as our home that we need to take care of.

My physical health is a wreck and I blame religion for keeping me from the doctor and instead praying for healing. I am concerned about my mental state...... I've become a hermit and don't know who or what to trust now. I was diagnosed with a major depressive disorder and am socially awkward and eccentric. The 3 SSRI' I pay out of pocket for do help(cognitively speaking and getting off the couch) but are not the magic bullet(I tend to overwhelm people and am now aware and working on it). I feel my emotional side slipping away and am gaining a great interest in logic and reasoning. The fact that at 13 I spoke in tongues and was slain in the spirit scares the hell out of me with the knowledge that god is a myth- no wonder I had few friends and was called odd and crazy.

As far as ufo'- there is something going on...Google November 14th, 1997 northwest sightings....I had a friend in the car and we both witnessed it for about 3 minutes and cars were pulled over on the freeway watching it. It was as big as a football field and a third as tall. My family thought I was hallucinating yet shoved god down my throat-WTF! I wouldn't bring this up but it was a mass sighting with witnesses from oregon to b.c- gov. said it was space junk or a russian proton rocket that dropped in the ocean- the direction of travel was parallel to the ocean! I also saw it disappear- it was just gone. Seeing this solidified my faith and drove me crazy. I thought it was the book of Ezekiel type shit or the nephilem or fallen angels/demons. Now I don't know what to think. One thing I am sure of is that was not a nuts n bolts craft from somewhere far away- too improbable. One interesting thing about the sighting I noticed was all the witnesses testimonies had variations as if they all saw something different. I do admit that what I witnessed that night was much bigger and more incredible than other witness reports. Neurally speaking my brain synapses musta been excited and firing defunctly.

I now question my dads mental health(moms nuts without a doubt). He once accused me of playing with the darkside and sending demons into his bedroom late one night. He very rarely, at church would interpret a message in tongues and encouraged me that I had the gift and to not be afraid to use it- I'm so glad I never even came close to doing so. He's been gone some time now so I'm gonna let it be and not ruminate on this topic. I'd rather focus on subjects such as how did the first cell come to be and how did it replicate. Primordial mud soup and lightning strikes jump starting life, to me, are ideas just as backwards as religion.

What scared the hell out of me growing up was watching a thief in the night- to top that off, when I was 5 or 6 mom said the tribulation would happen in my teens and they would torture our family. She put this graphic image in my head of a boiling vat of oil and my parents getting their appendages cut off and tossed in the pot until I succumbed and accepted the mark. Had horrible nightmares about this and other ways of them dying. This was much more traumatic than the seizure laced "excorcism" I watched at 13. I was vicariously amused and curious more so than scared watching that boy flail and scream violently on the floor.

 Church members would act like drunks and stumble through the pews and aisles, certain folks would laugh uncontrollably for an hour at a time while others would weep like madmen for the whole hour. Canada now has christians that roar like lions in the spirit! I got my ass beat at 5 for laughing at an old man speaking in tongues- to this day I can repeat word for word his phrase he repeated. It sounded so funny-here goes. Uh keedie unda cooty unda keedie unda kie, cooty unda keedie undacooty unda kie, uh keedie unda cooty unda keedie unda kie, cooty unda keedie undacooty unda kie-(repeat 20 or 30 times and wait for an elder to tell us what he said, the tongue verbatim details never changed yet the details of the message was always different, usually telling us how bad we were and off track when the guy interpretting actually chases pastors off-after god comes to him in a vision and tells him to hire the pastor, WTF people!). My phrase was more like- ah la sha da ka ma kie coo du sha da ma da lie, pe du pa du ma da da sha da da kama ka coo du shoda kee da la ma meda mie pe du pa du pu du pi..

Thank you all for sifting thru my word salad and taking the time to helpfully reply, I look forward to repaying the favor if you guys are ever stumped and I can shed some light.


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Luminon wrote: movin4ward

Luminon wrote:

movin4ward wrote:

First time poster here-

36 year old male here, extremely sheltered and strongly indoctrinated from day one witnessing tongues, laughing in the spirit, dancing/drunk in the spirit and slain in the spirit weekly.

Hello.

Would you please explain me what do these mean? I know speaking in tongues, I knew a group of pentecostals who were really good at it. Too bad I didn't record anything, it sounded very cultish/scary.

But what is laughing in the spirit, drunk in the spirit and... slain in the spirit, WTF? 

I know we can induce ourselves some very trippy experiences, the people I know (drugless hippies) just use sanskrit mantras and dynamic meditations to get in da zone. It seems a universal human need, to chant, dance and act crazy. What you describes doesn't sound like something they got from Bible. Who makes this stuff up? They devolved into tribalism and now I suppose they create their own mythology and rituals. Too bad the pope left them unsupervised. 

 


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Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Welcome! My guess is seizure.

No guess, it's a fact.

How would you know for certain ?

Has had epilepsy from birth. The symptoms that are normally applied in the claims of casting out devils are the very same. They never state however if their casting out evil spirits is permanent. We never get the story after the fact do we. In ancient times the effects of diseases that we know today as common illnesses were said to be of evil spirits. The Salem witch hunts were because of "ergot" a fungus in wheat flour from wheat rust that caused high temps and illusions. The only evil spirits that we know of is ---people. Nothing more then the person that contrives it.

I think there's a danger in assuming the cause. People can have seizures for dozens of reasons.

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Yes, I know what is speaking

Yes, I know what is speaking in tongues. But slain in the spirit, I didn't know that. It looks dangerous, I'd keep away from such practices. The brain is a computer that can break itself. I almost managed it a few times. The last attempt brought me a couple of years propensity to headache, in addition to the common headache.

movin4ward wrote:

Sexual permiscuality and whiskey drinking reared its ugly head after the divorce-and before my deconversion. After realizing I'd been duped by the church and the fam to believe in talking snakes and the like, I changed for the better-6 months alcohol free and no sex in 7 months. I now view humans as equals rather than the chosen and unchosen- this led me to garner more empathy and respect for the opposite sex. Instead of viewing the planet as satans kingdom therefore worthy of the destruction our earth receives, I now see it as our home that we need to take care of.

My physical health is a wreck and I blame religion for keeping me from the doctor and instead praying for healing. I am concerned about my mental state...... I've become a hermit and don't know who or what to trust now. I was diagnosed with a major depressive disorder and am socially awkward and eccentric. The 3 SSRI' I pay out of pocket for do help(cognitively speaking and getting off the couch) but are not the magic bullet(I tend to overwhelm people and am now aware and working on it). I feel my emotional side slipping away and am gaining a great interest in logic and reasoning. The fact that at 13 I spoke in tongues and was slain in the spirit scares the hell out of me with the knowledge that god is a myth- no wonder I had few friends and was called odd and crazy.

You might want to give a listen to a podcast by Rich Lyons with his wife Diana. Rich is a former Christian minister who got out of it the rough way and got a serious case of PTSD, was determined to kill himself, had terrible and weird nightmares etc, before he got professional help and medication that allowed him to sleep. The podcast is a lot about recovery and relationships, it's "the sex podcast"... Well, I think people who just got out of a sect should be treated like they just returned from Vietnam war. Find a non-religious psychiatrist and get checked. 

movin4ward wrote:
As far as ufo'- there is something going on...Google November 14th, 1997 northwest sightings....I had a friend in the car and we both witnessed it for about 3 minutes and cars were pulled over on the freeway watching it. It was as big as a football field and a third as tall. My family thought I was hallucinating yet shoved god down my throat-WTF! I wouldn't bring this up but it was a mass sighting with witnesses from oregon to b.c- gov. said it was space junk or a russian proton rocket that dropped in the ocean- the direction of travel was parallel to the ocean! I also saw it disappear- it was just gone. Seeing this solidified my faith and drove me crazy. I thought it was the book of Ezekiel type shit or the nephilem or fallen angels/demons. Now I don't know what to think. One thing I am sure of is that was not a nuts n bolts craft from somewhere far away- too improbable. One interesting thing about the sighting I noticed was all the witnesses testimonies had variations as if they all saw something different. I do admit that what I witnessed that night was much bigger and more incredible than other witness reports. Neurally speaking my brain synapses musta been excited and firing defunctly.
Last year I saw several U.F.O.s, once even I could compare its size and speed with two common jet airplanes flying nearby. There is a difference, you immediately see it's not a normal airplane. I lived in a mountainside country area for almost all my life and the air traffic there has been fairly easy to identify. 

However, I don't consider any of this impossible, that's a modern bias. We have a very distorted view of the universe. We think the cold, solid and visible matter is representative, but it's more like an anomaly in the universe, bubbles in the jelly. The universe is almost completely made of hot, invisible dispersed plasma held together by electric/magnetic fields, rather than gravity, which is comparatively weak. What we see on the cold, dead planets says nothing about the "life" of cosmic fields and streams of charged plasma and dark matter. If there is any life possible in this form, it might be able to configure its matter, to control the fields to densify the matter and make it visible and solid when needed. It will probably use different means of propulsion and moving around than we use. The size might differ quite a lot and it it will likely be surrounded by glowing fields that "struggle" against the pull of gravity. Antigravity might be possibly based on extending some kind of EM fields to increase "volume" and therefore "buoyancy" of an object in a gravity field. So it will appear glowing in our planet's gravity, much less so in the outer space, creating the illusion of an empty and lifeless solar system. This is I think a possibility we have to count with if we want to view the universe more according to its actual composition.

movin4ward wrote:
I now question my dads mental health(moms nuts without a doubt). He once accused me of playing with the darkside and sending demons into his bedroom late one night. He very rarely, at church would interpret a message in tongues and encouraged me that I had the gift and to not be afraid to use it- I'm so glad I never even came close to doing so. He's been gone some time now so I'm gonna let it be and not ruminate on this topic. I'd rather focus on subjects such as how did the first cell come to be and how did it replicate. Primordial mud soup and lightning strikes jump starting life, to me, are ideas just as backwards as religion.

The origins of life are so unclear, because it might happen in many ways, for example in the deep sea thermal vents. We know the early life was sulphur oxide breathing, just like the life down there. But there are some other fascinating theories and observations, I just don't want to derail the thread too much with non-peer-reviewed research Smiling 

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UFOs

I don't know much about the subject, but now that we are in 2013 and almost every Tom, Dick and Jenny has a camera on their phone, we can expect a period where the documentation/evidence of these sightings is far better than eyewitnesses, sketches and hearsay.

I'm sceptical, but will be happy to review my position in a couple of years when all this new, voluminous evidence has been analysed.

 


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x wrote:I don't know much

x wrote:

I don't know much about the subject, but now that we are in 2013 and almost every Tom, Dick and Jenny has a camera on their phone, we can expect a period where the documentation/evidence of these sightings is far better than eyewitnesses, sketches and hearsay.

I'm sceptical, but will be happy to review my position in a couple of years when all this new, voluminous evidence has been analysed.

The amount and quality of videos on Youtube already correspond to that state of things. The videos are plentiful and as far as can be seen, similar. Many of them even depict the same object or the same type of an object. 

However, a camera on phone is a camera on phone. It's designed to record people on the ground, not football field-sized and moving objects up to 10 km above ground, while held in a shaky hand by an excited observer, at night. What I've seen during the day, the objects were silvery shiny and solid, but on the night videos the best known ones seem to be made mostly of glowing fields that change shape. The camera technology is improving, but it's not improving specifically for that purpose, which is I think the problem. 

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Fair enough

Luminon wrote:
The amount and quality of videos on Youtube already correspond to that state of things. The videos are plentiful and as far as can be seen, similar. Many of them even depict the same object or the same type of an object. 

However, a camera on phone is a camera on phone. It's designed to record people on the ground, not football field-sized and moving objects up to 10 km above ground, while held in a shaky hand by an excited observer, at night. What I've seen during the day, the objects were silvery shiny and solid, but on the night videos the best known ones seem to be made mostly of glowing fields that change shape. The camera technology is improving, but it's not improving specifically for that purpose, which is I think the problem. 

Working out the provenance of those youtube videos is too problematic, but I take your point that phone cameras aren't very good. Looks like it'll be a few more years before more reliable evidence comes in either way.


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Slain in the spirit-

Luminon wrote:

Yes, I know what is speaking in tongues. But slain in the spirit, I didn't know that. It looks dangerous, I'd keep away from such practices. The brain is a computer that can break itself. I almost managed it a few times. The last attempt brought me a couple of years propensity to headache, in addition to the common headache.

movin4ward wrote:

Sexual permiscuality and whiskey drinking reared its ugly head after the divorce-and before my deconversion. After realizing I'd been duped by the church and the fam to believe in talking snakes and the like, I changed for the better-6 months alcohol free and no sex in 7 months. I now view humans as equals rather than the chosen and unchosen- this led me to garner more empathy and respect for the opposite sex. Instead of viewing the planet as satans kingdom therefore worthy of the destruction our earth receives, I now see it as our home that we need to take care of.

My physical health is a wreck and I blame religion for keeping me from the doctor and instead praying for healing. I am concerned about my mental state...... I've become a hermit and don't know who or what to trust now. I was diagnosed with a major depressive disorder and am socially awkward and eccentric. The 3 SSRI' I pay out of pocket for do help(cognitively speaking and getting off the couch) but are not the magic bullet(I tend to overwhelm people and am now aware and working on it). I feel my emotional side slipping away and am gaining a great interest in logic and reasoning. The fact that at 13 I spoke in tongues and was slain in the spirit scares the hell out of me with the knowledge that god is a myth- no wonder I had few friends and was called odd and crazy.

You might want to give a listen to a podcast by Rich Lyons with his wife Diana. Rich is a former Christian minister who got out of it the rough way and got a serious case of PTSD, was determined to kill himself, had terrible and weird nightmares etc, before he got professional help and medication that allowed him to sleep. The podcast is a lot about recovery and relationships, it's "the sex podcast"... Well, I think people who just got out of a sect should be treated like they just returned from Vietnam war. Find a non-religious psychiatrist and get checked. 

movin4ward wrote:
As far as ufo'- there is something going on...Google November 14th, 1997 northwest sightings....I had a friend in the car and we both witnessed it for about 3 minutes and cars were pulled over on the freeway watching it. It was as big as a football field and a third as tall. My family thought I was hallucinating yet shoved god down my throat-WTF! I wouldn't bring this up but it was a mass sighting with witnesses from oregon to b.c- gov. said it was space junk or a russian proton rocket that dropped in the ocean- the direction of travel was parallel to the ocean! I also saw it disappear- it was just gone. Seeing this solidified my faith and drove me crazy. I thought it was the book of Ezekiel type shit or the nephilem or fallen angels/demons. Now I don't know what to think. One thing I am sure of is that was not a nuts n bolts craft from somewhere far away- too improbable. One interesting thing about the sighting I noticed was all the witnesses testimonies had variations as if they all saw something different. I do admit that what I witnessed that night was much bigger and more incredible than other witness reports. Neurally speaking my brain synapses musta been excited and firing defunctly.
Last year I saw several U.F.O.s, once even I could compare its size and speed with two common jet airplanes flying nearby. There is a difference, you immediately see it's not a normal airplane. I lived in a mountainside country area for almost all my life and the air traffic there has been fairly easy to identify. 

However, I don't consider any of this impossible, that's a modern bias. We have a very distorted view of the universe. We think the cold, solid and visible matter is representative, but it's more like an anomaly in the universe, bubbles in the jelly. The universe is almost completely made of hot, invisible dispersed plasma held together by electric/magnetic fields, rather than gravity, which is comparatively weak. What we see on the cold, dead planets says nothing about the "life" of cosmic fields and streams of charged plasma and dark matter. If there is any life possible in this form, it might be able to configure its matter, to control the fields to densify the matter and make it visible and solid when needed. It will probably use different means of propulsion and moving around than we use. The size might differ quite a lot and it it will likely be surrounded by glowing fields that "struggle" against the pull of gravity. Antigravity might be possibly based on extending some kind of EM fields to increase "volume" and therefore "buoyancy" of an object in a gravity field. So it will appear glowing in our planet's gravity, much less so in the outer space, creating the illusion of an empty and lifeless solar system. This is I think a possibility we have to count with if we want to view the universe more according to its actual composition.

movin4ward wrote:
I now question my dads mental health(moms nuts without a doubt). He once accused me of playing with the darkside and sending demons into his bedroom late one night. He very rarely, at church would interpret a message in tongues and encouraged me that I had the gift and to not be afraid to use it- I'm so glad I never even came close to doing so. He's been gone some time now so I'm gonna let it be and not ruminate on this topic. I'd rather focus on subjects such as how did the first cell come to be and how did it replicate. Primordial mud soup and lightning strikes jump starting life, to me, are ideas just as backwards as religion.

The origins of life are so unclear, because it might happen in many ways, for example in the deep sea thermal vents. We know the early life was sulphur oxide breathing, just like the life down there. But there are some other fascinating theories and observations, I just don't want to derail the thread too much with non-peer-reviewed research Smiling 

Equates to a change in person or personality. Slain equals dead (of course) but not physically. The same in essence to--- a new heavens and a new earth, which is a new values system and personal makeup (soul-the inner self). The same as dead in sin--a condition of no longer being a sinner--as-- the old has died and replaced by a/the new. In order to become Christian one must change from what one is to the new, which the person is a new personage. after of which the old is slain---dead.  So far as we know no one has accomplished it. S0--- they use biblical terminology but make no changes other then the brain being caused to use more dopamines and cause a self induced ecstasy. Considering that true Christianity isn't in play they have no idea what they refer to. They just use bible quotes because they're there.

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Understood

Vastet wrote:
Old Seer wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Welcome! My guess is seizure.

No guess, it's a fact.

How would you know for certain ?

Has had epilepsy from birth. The symptoms that are normally applied in the claims of casting out devils are the very same. They never state however if their casting out evil spirits is permanent. We never get the story after the fact do we. In ancient times the effects of diseases that we know today as common illnesses were said to be of evil spirits. The Salem witch hunts were because of "ergot" a fungus in wheat flour from wheat rust that caused high temps and illusions. The only evil spirits that we know of is ---people. Nothing more then the person that contrives it.

I think there's a danger in assuming the cause. People can have seizures for dozens of reasons.

But it's not evil spirits. Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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slain in the spirit details...

Cool, I'll check out the podcast when I gain access to an ipod...

The glowing you mentioned nicely fits my description of the mother ship I encountered on that clear winter night. The craft was enveloped in an unearthly foggy haze. For a description, imagine two football field sized, horizontal, indistinct parallel dark lines with the lower line being roughly 100 yards above the ground with the top line about 35 yards above the bottom. Try and picture two rows of glowing orbs with slight "tails" pointing to the suspected rear of the craft, 1-2 yards in circumference with a 3-4 yard distance between them. Each row traversed horizontally the length of the craft- one row right below the top line and the remaining row directly above the bottom line. Judging by the direction of travel the back of the ship was a hot black/orange glowing ember and I don't recall any orbs being in the vicinity of the colorful and super hot looking mass. Sandwiched between the orb rows was a display 100 times more incredible than any fireworks show on this planet, shifting color patterns and a 3d effect that ninten-doh would kill for- that was the most amazing thing I have ever seen. I will repeat that my description is much more intense than other eye witness descriptions- the girl in the car with me doesn't talk about it but it did cause her to lose faith, she was a member of my church at the time. Trying to compare our descriptions has been like pulling teeth for me. My cop-christin brother-in-law witnessed it and claims it was a mere meteor shower- but I would expect such a reply stemming from his need to appear sane to keep his job.

As far as "slain in the spirit" goes, I'll try and accurately detail in my own words my personal experiences and those around me..For starters it is viewed as a gift and a reward from God. My understanding is that the presence of the spirit in the human body becomes so strong that the spirit essentially takes over, flesh transforms into a state of powerlessness due to the"bible fact" that our flesh is so much weaker than the spirit- basically the powerless flesh collapses under the powerful weight of the spirit the moment it enters the body. It elevates a participant to a higher status popularity wise and is never openly, verbally looked down upon or questioned for its authenticity even when red flags abound. This leads to  genuine frustration for "the unslain" members who feel that  god is holding back because they consider themselves holy and therefore worthy of the inducement of slainment. I have seen people play the victim and sulk like a martyr for feeling left out. Priming the flock was a major component rather than simply trusting god to do his work, what I mean is we were all sat down and told that we would have doubts and try to resist the spirit because of our wickedly ingrained nature and that we were best off just going with the flow since ultimately god knows best (sounds oxymoronic to me). The year I was slain, I had already received the "gift" of tongues and it was a shot in the arm to my ego, parents, pastors and fellow members all were so proud of me and congratulated me. What rained on my parade was I was filled with doubt, wanting so bad for it to be real but I had a feeling in my gut I had faked it not meaning to. I never told a soul and just went with it living in denial. The week of my enslainment, I had it all planned out to attend the alter on the 4th and 5th night and once and for all really get right with god, with all my hormones I was excited for the opportunity to chase tail and get a piece- god forbid I go up the first 3 nights and not be able to chase tang around! I went up and started praying in tongues the 4th night, upon the opening of me eyeballs, it was revealed that 30% percent of the camp was slainin n layin on the floor-dropping at a rate of 1 camper per 2-6 minutes. I was pumped that the spirit was being so generous that night and I wanted my piece of the pie. Took a meager 15 minutes of intense, foul breathed hands on praying, they were actually pushing back on my shoulders while a guy behind me had his hands pressed against my back to catch me, I kept resisting until they accused me of resisting the spirit- I felt they knew what they were talking about so I went with it, I wasn't faking falling backwards, more like accepting the gift no matter what the wrapping paper looked like. They drug(ged) me to the spot where other campers were laying . I didn't come to and open my eyes for roughly 30 minutes to an hour(time was distorted). As I was "slain", after rationalizing and convincing myself it was real an extreme sense of relief and euphoria crept in. The longer I laid there, the feelings of grandiose and joy kept exponentially intensifying until it reached the point where my pineal gland felt like it cracked and I felt like I was on ecstacy judging by how the books claim it makes its users feel. I started laughing(probably maniacally) and really had a good time. I never went back to that strange place of enslainmentitis because within a few years madness took over our church. Every single sunday night the same 20 members would "get slain again" after the service and I had to sit and watch for an hour or two, the slain crew would rise up, head to their car and drive home waiting for the next time. The majority of that group beat feet and prefers the secular lifestyle these days. At the time I believed it was possible to receive the gift but also knew without a doubt most of these people were faking. Now there is a nearby church that has evolved the  "the slain game". They do it midservice and have a "prayer cloth patrol" that walks around placing white sheets over the womens crotch, legs and breasts. Unfortunately madness is contagious and they planted the seeds, so glad I found this site(link from landover baptist online church I frequent). The info here is a great tool at wiping the churches madness off my feet.

If I were to hypothesize on the strange phenomena of "being slain" it would be this....In a nutshell it's hypnotizing the weak minded, lost, confused and susceptible members. It is so effective because there are no outside checks and balances in place so the power of suggestion can take the course of months and years. This allows the hypnotist to construct a tailor made approach differing for each member just to get in the receivers head and push emotional buttons. This becomes a simple task when it is taken into consideration that christians prefer emotion and being led over rational, logical thinking. They actually become part of a minority(the unslain) where they may feel the gifted slain secretly look down upon them(they do) and unknowingly succumb to the peer pressure.

As far as being in 2013 and in a digital age, I really don't think it will make a difference. Non faked, real ufo and bigfoot footage will be quickly discounted as faked or photoshopped, The chicago ohare airport footage was pretty convincing w/ higher up multiple eyewitness accounts. It is up to the viewer to decide for himself since media bias and political agendas have their own goals in mind and those goals most likely don't line up with our goals and need to know. Admitting footage is real would change everything and morality may plummet with crime sprees on the rise. Until the government has a better understanding of the ufo phenomenas intentions they will remain tight lipped, the govt. may even fear that our newfound knowledge may affect how people feel about space exploration(financially speaking) and/or cast aside religion or make new ones to tie in ufos which they obviously don't want.

 


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 Welcome to the forums. I

 Welcome to the forums. I went to a Pentacostal church for a bit and watched them speaking in tongues, as an atheist I found it extremely amusing and watched it with the same perspective one might watch the Harry Potter movies- as a source of fantasy and amusement. I cannot imagine what it is like growing up taking such things seriously or the strength it must take to risk rejection from your family to simply recognize the truth.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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x wrote:I don't know much

x wrote:

I don't know much about the subject, but now that we are in 2013 and almost every Tom, Dick and Jenny has a camera on their phone, we can expect a period where the documentation/evidence of these sightings is far better than eyewitnesses, sketches and hearsay.

I'm sceptical, but will be happy to review my position in a couple of years when all this new, voluminous evidence has been analysed.

 

The head of the worlds biggest ufo sighting organisation very recently said that the amount and quality of evidence is going down year by year, despite the technology advances which should accomplish the opposite.

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 It also gets far easier to

 It also gets far easier to fake UFOs.

This movie was made on a laptop using standard video effects tools.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2010/nov/27/mosters-gareth-edwards-avatar

And the effect is a lot better than a blurry blob in the sky.

 

I am sceptical of UFO sightings. Why are most of them in the US, do you think? Is it intrinsically more interesting to aliens?

 

 

 


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GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

 It also gets far easier to fake UFOs.

This movie was made on a laptop using standard video effects tools.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2010/nov/27/mosters-gareth-edwards-avatar

And the effect is a lot better than a blurry blob in the sky.

 

I am sceptical of UFO sightings. Why are most of them in the US, do you think? Is it intrinsically more interesting to aliens?

I think in other countries these sightings are so common, that people don't bother to report them and there's nobody to report them to. I mean, last year I saw about four in the countryside during the day, one at night, some of them I watched with my family... What's the big deal? I think Americans have the most fearful and self-important attitude of all towards the aliens. 

I can't explain many details, that would take way too much space, but I personally subscribe to the idea, that they have nothing to talk about, nothing to ask, nothing to want from us or our government. I can't be dogmatic about it, but the idea says they work tirelessly to buy us time, because we pollute our environment in a very specific and deadly way (breaking neutrons releases more radiation than we can measure) and we'd be already all dead if they didn't partially clean that up. The part they can't clean up causes an unprecedented rise in autism, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease and general immune system weakness. They buy us time for certain processes that go in our culture, for transition from blind expansion of inequality into a more equal, global peaceful society. A better technology would do the job, but either we'd misuse that technology instantly for war and economic war (hyper-capitalism) or we already have such technologies of our own on similar basis but the market mechanism doesn't allow to introduce them. If the value of dollar and all world currencies are based on oil, then to introduce a free energy technology (such as cold fusion) would devalue them entirely. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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I say it's real.

It's real babbling. The question is---what's it for??? There's nothing in Christianity that I know of requiring babbling. All the foot stomping, drum beating, guitar strumming, organ grinding, gadget clacking, rolling around, fiddle screeching, bell clanging, Dancey prancey, Hymmy humming, horn hooting and general gymnastics hasn't solved a thing. Running your motor for Jesus will be next. There's nothing in Christianity that any of this has any good to it. But-it can be seen clearly that babbling is real---unfortunately.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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shifting perceptions and perspectives...

I'm starting to lean towards the theory that life may have been seeded on earth long ago by an advanced race/races of highly evolved biological entities from far away.

For me to deal rationally with what I witnessed, I came to conclude that outside verification is unnecessary for me to maintain my belief in ufos.

There was a time I didn't believe either- that is until 11-14-97...There will be future sightings therefore new believers...

It's just a matter of time before witnesses outnumber non witnesses and devious misinformation debunker types...

New digital camera/video technology footage of real ufos may be debunked by other means of advanced technology that

will be a useful tool at virtually "proving" that real footage is just a hoax...

Power, money and mind control of the masses may be factors that influence the govt. being tight lipped...

I don't dwell on ufos anymore, too many variables and inconclusive data results-data always ends up with noisy/fuzzy results...

Believing in ufos via means of witnessing one is good enough and satisfies my curiosity- since they are obviously advanced far ahead of us, the chances of us figuring out the hows and whys is unlikely, therefore taking precious time away from much more important concepts that we can harness. Now if I could only apply this way of thinking to my religous deconversion obsession....

 

Shifting gears to tongues, I imagine the babbler has the odd sounds and repetitive phrase already rehearsed in their mind before they speak them. The 10-20 minutes I had hands on praying requesting the gift of tongues I know I did. People that claim they just opened their mouth and the sounds just came out are lying!!! Usually it is barely audible until the ones praying start encouraging it and claiming they know it's real. That's when the madness begin, the voice becomes louder, more confident until the phrase has been fully said. After that it's just a matter of repeating. It does feel real to the babbler though, at least I was duped.


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Aha

Vastet wrote:
x wrote:

I don't know much about the subject, but now that we are in 2013 and almost every Tom, Dick and Jenny has a camera on their phone, we can expect a period where the documentation/evidence of these sightings is far better than eyewitnesses, sketches and hearsay.

I'm sceptical, but will be happy to review my position in a couple of years when all this new, voluminous evidence has been analysed.

 

The head of the worlds biggest ufo sighting organisation very recently said that the amount and quality of evidence is going down year by year, despite the technology advances which should accomplish the opposite.

I suppose that's exactly what one should expect.

For me, when NASA, Nature, James Randi, the BBC, The Guardian and Al Jazeera all say they are convinced and provide good evidence, I'll probably believe.

In the meantime, I'm not sure what to say to people like Luminon who do believe. Maybe certain parts of the world have strange atmospheric conditions. Maybe the mind plays tricks.

Also, wouldn't it be a great and very profitable scoop for any reputable news organisation anywhere, to capture impressive evidence and sell it to the worldwide news agencies?


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movin4ward wrote:Believing

movin4ward wrote:

Believing in ufos via means of witnessing one is good enough and satisfies my curiosity- since they are obviously advanced far ahead of us, the chances of us figuring out the hows and whys is unlikely, therefore taking precious time away from much more important concepts that we can harness. Now if I could only apply this way of thinking to my religous deconversion obsession....

Well, it is possible and possibly important, but requires some serious out of the box thinking and out of this world experiences. So you're right. 

movin4ward wrote:
Shifting gears to tongues, I imagine the babbler has the odd sounds and repetitive phrase already rehearsed in their mind before they speak them. The 10-20 minutes I had hands on praying requesting the gift of tongues I know I did. People that claim they just opened their mouth and the sounds just came out are lying!!! Usually it is barely audible until the ones praying start encouraging it and claiming they know it's real. That's when the madness begin, the voice becomes louder, more confident until the phrase has been fully said. After that it's just a matter of repeating. It does feel real to the babbler though, at least I was duped.

In my opinion, the whole speaking in tongues thing depends on how much of a big deal people make of it. Speaking in tongues is a real phenomenon, people disable their normal way of thinking and what comes out of mouth is sort of a brain's white noise from the background of randomly firing neurons in speech center. The problem is, people can only do it really if they get into the mood. And they can't get into the mood when it's a big deal of social prestige in the church and everyone's waiting and looking at the others who starts babbling first, who second - who is holier, more blessed with gifts of spirit... So they start faking it. I hung out for a while in a group of young Pentecostals and they were not faking it. It sounded rather creepy like a cannibal cult chanting from an Indiana Jones movie. Later I talked to one cult member, a normal man, a worker in a factory, and he said he *can't* talk in tongues at will, that he has to get into the mood. And I haven't seen them make a big deal out of speaking in tongues or other practices they had, they didn't have any social ladder around that. They all started praying and some simply shifted into the tongues if they felt like it.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Having to be in the right

Having to be in the right mood to blabber incessantly vs. yammering at will appear to rest on differing scopes of the spectrum. Potentially increased dopamine levels and increased synapse firing fit the bill for those that need the mood to be right. For me, I can blasphemy jesus in one breath and the next spew forth my "gifted" tongue language without stutter. I had a handful of close christian friends express frustration in not being able to babble like a baby and asked me for tips-the majority stared back blankly at me upon my offering of advice...

From my understanding, one of the two biblical variations on tongues is where an actual language was being spoken to bystanders whom otherwise would be unable to interpret the speakers message. This I chalk up to hearsay and just one more of the myriad of biblical fairy tales. I was taught that in this day of elevated communications jesus no longer needed to revert to the antiquated methods. Please mr. jesus freak preacher man- don't insult my intelligence any further...

This thought just popped into my head. How hard would it really be for a crazy jesus freak or two, in the abrahamic era of time to learn 2 or more languages to further their religous agenda. Having "plants" or unwitting bystanders in the audience who acted shocked they could understand would convince the surrounding weak minded into believing. The rest is history. To them maybe this was their version of technology, becoming bilingual. After all, knowledge is power...


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Laughing In the Spirit

The laughing part starts up about the 2min mark

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Slain by the spirit

Fire on ya



Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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I literally belly laughed watching these vids

Feels great to laugh guilt free!!! As a "christian" I personally (albeit guiltily) laughed a lot on the inside when watching jack asses make spectacles of themselves at church. I believed most of them were insane or faking. On the other hand I believed that the phenomena of what they were impersonating was a reality- hence the guilt. I tried not to mock the nuts in my head but I usually ended up guilt ridden and crazily confused. Thankfully these day my biases and views are steadily eroding and evolving, casting delusions aside, thusly shifting my personal perception of reality. Nine Inch Nails wrote a hauntingly beautiful song called "Right where it belongs" that is exactly how I feel these days. I'm not yet comfortable attaching links or I'd have included this video, I feel the message is powerful for both sides of the religous debate.