again, i've never tried it and there's a reason for it.  If you're asking me how to do it, you obviously don't know what you're asking for.  I will not be responsible for that.

Why would he have to when in the Bible he told us we already have power over them?

Just look at the reasoning behind most people who commit such crimes.  You will find their justification to be not only absurd, but considering Biblical teachings, their lack of belief justifies to them their reasoning though it might not be directly said so.  e.g. someone has sex with someone because they claim the other wanted it at the time despite the fact that the other is accusing them of rape.  The Bible says wait till marriage.  If the accused had that understanding, the issue would not have happened in the first place.  Just one example of millions out there.  the Biblical understanding also saves many from making those stupid mistakes that end up getting both hurt.  

I think Alex Gee says it best:  http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Alex+Gee&view=detail&mid=FE17CC037B84FB9C0879FE17CC037B84FB9C0879&first=0&FORM=NVPFVR

No, this is not an assumption. "Study material" can be created for anything. 

Are you seriously admitting that you do not understand this ? 

There is no need for me to duplicate those discussions. I have read them. You have not been able to produce acceptable proof in any of them.

In fact, you seem to have panicked rather badly in those discussions, resulting in replies that barely qualify as language. Very strange indeed. 

You have not presented acceptable proof of any kind, and what we are "stuck" on here are facts. Better to be "stuck" on facts than ignore them entirely. Still, it's good to see you are no longer trying to deny the connection.

You are capable of learning.  

You are asking a question that was already answered. It would appear you are not capable of learning after all.

I'll explain again : "Study material" can be created about anything, including your fantasies. Since it can be created about anything, it can never stop you from believing everything. Do you understand this painfully simple fact ? 

Even if you don't, the question needs to be repeated yet again, and it will keep being repeated, until you learn that study material can be created about anything, and that reasoning and rationality demand acceptable proof, of which you have none.

So, how do you keep from believing everything ? 

To apply reasoning and rationality here would be to demand acceptable proof. "Experiences" do not count as acceptable proof, and are therefore irrelevant. Your continued strange misuse of terms like "reasoning and rationality" only serves to accentuate the weakness of your position and the hollowness of your arguments. 

No, that is the hypothetical situation I have been asking you questions about for these past few weeks. Pretending to misunderstand people who have communicated with you in a clear and unambiguous way, isn't very honest. 

As you well know, but seem encouragingly ashamed to admit, your failed to mention that this was the ONLY option in such a case.

Check recidivism statistics. I really don't understand why you keep asking people these simple questions you could so very easily answer yourself. Is it just laziness ? 

That is not a "suggestion", that is simply the result of weeks or repeated questions and patiently repeated explanations.

Among the many things you need to learn, the most urgent would be that you need proof for ALL your claims. Even when just calling something "a suggestion", it seems. 

Simply "figuring" supernatural beings played a part in something does not mean a thing. You cannot make supernatural beings real by "figuring". 

Do you understand, that if "figuring" was enough to make something supernatural real, then you could "figure" ANYTHING into being ? 

And do you understand that this is impossible ? 

I really wish that was a rhetorical question.

??????

What are you even talking about ? We established that you cannot find even a single example of something positive occurring because of a belief in "demons" and "possession", that could not have happened without it. Your only defense against this fact is "figuring" that a supernatural being HAD to have been involved in a positive change somehow, which is both nonsensical and irrelevant. So what on earth do you mean with "more than nothing" ???

And "humans would be almost extinct if what you suggest is true" ???? What utter tripe is this ?? First of all, I never "suggested" anything. While you "figured", I provided facts. Facts that prove the reality of the exclusive toxicity of your belief in "demons" and "possession".

Meanwhile, you're "figuring".

So I will ask again : Why would anyone openly support such a belief, knowing full well that, at best, it will lead to nothing, but also that the very real possibility exists that it will lead to the most appalling tragedy ?

Do you have any justification beyond just "figuring" ? Well ?

Please mention what it is that you don't understand. 

I have not ignored any facts because you have not provided any. I have.

Btw, "figuring" can not create facts out of thin air.

You believe in "demons" and "possessions". Did you forget ? 

No, he has not had to "try" anything. He has succeeded in making you look almost insane. I'm not just being hyperbolic here. Some of your replies to him are almost childishly nonsensical. 

By planting the idea in their head that there is such a thing as "demons" and "possession". The facts show what this can lead to. 

So are you saying that any responsibility for what happens after you've delivered your evil little message lies with "god" and not with you ???

So you would waste the time of someone responsible for a sick loved one with even more of your supernatural nonsense ???? Incredible. You really are completely without shame.

So you take no responsibility for what happens after you "educated" them ? None at all ? 

Since we were talking about your claims and your posts, I will take this admission for what it's worth. 

Yes. Now please answer the question.

I was referring to what made them do that in the first place. You are seriously telling me that there is "no problem" with some attention-seeking "demon" believer imposing their "dream" on a grieving family that already has gone through so much ??

Is there ANYTHING so vile that these people could even do that would be "a problem" to you ?? Anything at all ??

I call your belief toxic because the facts I have provided show it the be nothing else. I have given you chance after chance to come up with even a single example of anything even remotely positive that could not have occurred without it. You failed.

That is why your belief is toxic. Not simply because that's what I call it.

Remember this. 

Lack of belief in the cases we are talking about would have led to people NOT being tortured to death by believers in "demons" and "possession". 

And as I keep telling you, if you so desperately want to talk about other causes of abuse and murder, sure, we can do that. But now we're talking about one that could be extremely easy to stop.

All it would take would be sufficient honesty from you to drop this insane belief. 

And that's where we keep coming up short.

How can anyone make statistics of "demonic possession" when there is just as much proof of this even existing as there is proof of ANY piece of fiction you can think of ? Got any statistics on the migratory habits of gnomes ? 

All we have are the actual cases, and they show an exclusively toxic picture.

If you have answered any of the preceding questions by now, we should have a clear picture of  "what you would actually do". 

Let's hope it makes you look a little less cruel, callous and selfish than any of your previous answers. 

If by saying you "wouldn't have taken the first step", you mean you wouldn't have shared your belief in "demons" and "possession" with those people, then you have gloriously contradicted yourself.

Merely suggesting there even is something you could be "falling for" does not make it so.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by these bizarrely weak arguments from a person who thinks that "figuring" something makes it real.

No, there will be more questions. I have met more "believers" who were proud of their cruelty, but you are the first one who will openly admit to not even giving a damn. 

I will be taking advantage of the opportunity to expose you for quite some time to come. Thank you again for your willing cooperation.

??? What fresh nonsense is this ? What are you talking about now ??

No, it could only have "seemed" that way if you did not actually read what I said.  

I wouldn't say any of that, since that is not the subject of the conversation. We were referring to you sharing your belief in "demons" and "possession" with people suffering from a medical emergency, which you decided could qualify as one of your "demonic possessions".

So in order to believe in demons I have to... already believe in demons? I thought you said there was evidence of demons. Evidence is something used to prove something to someone who has doubts. It also strikes me as exceedingly arrogant to believe that everything possible is known about a subject so there is no point in studying it. As we have learned in our scientific endeavors, often when we think we know how something works we discover new things about it. Can you understand why I am extremely skeptical when someone tells me they know everything so there is no point to researching? The only way you can know everything about any subject is if the subject is completely made up. It would be possible to know everything about Star Wars, it is not possible to know everything about gravity. 

I don't trust reporters. Even with regular mundane news they are often wrong and have their facts incorrect, either through personal bias or human error. I have been to many newsworthy events and the account I read in the newspaper was not an accurate representation of what actually happened. Someone who watches Fox News exclusively will have an entirely different idea of what is happening in the world as someone who exclusively watches MSNBC. Which is why when I read a news story I find interesting, I always attempt to get more information from primary sources.  

Well summoning a demon in a scientifically controlled environment would be great. I want to see someone do some serious research on the subject, rather than simply declare that they know everything there is to know about demons because the bible says so. 

How would that provide evidence of demons? I don't deny that Christians have a unique culture and I'm sure you can find many differences between them and other cultures. For example, some Christian cultures are likely to exclude people who are gay. Many cultures have uniqueness to them. I am part of what could be called a "poker culture". Compared to the general public, the poker culture is extremely inclusive to anyone with money. Single, married, gay, any ethnicity, professional businessman, ex-felon or drug dealer all get together at the same table even when they have absolutely nothing else in common. It is also the one place where I don't think twice about walking away and leaving a bunch of money on the table. Actually, that would be kind of a fun study- take $1,000 and just leave it on a table at a Christian picnic and walk away for an hour, then leave $1,000 on the table at a poker club and see where it gets stolen more often. Then repeat with lower amounts say $10. My gut feeling is that the $10 would disappear from the picnic quite a bit. The $1,000, my hunch is that most people probably wouldn't take it. At the poker club, no one would touch a penny (even though a fair number of people in the poker culture wouldn't hesitate to steal outside the culture).

Cultural differences are interesting, but I don't see how they provide evidence for or against demons.

Someone should do one. Perhaps one of those experts who already "know everything". Until there is some kind of study along those lines I see no reason to believe in demons. Until some kind of study like that is done, there is no evidence for demons. 

There have been dozens of studies on prayer and they have shown no variance beyond what is expected from pure chance. There have been studies that show that prayer can be helpful as a placebo effect in cases where the mindset of a person can be beneficial. Alternatives to prayer, such as meditation, positive thinking and sugar pills provide similar results. 

He contradicted himself going from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Or do you think we should still follow the laws god established in the OT? He can be whatever type of god he wants to be if he is omnipotent. Apparently he chooses to be the torturing type of god. I think that is a bad choice. I choose not to be the torturing type of human. 

I don't care if it is the first thing or the millionth thing. Drowning a whole world is monstrous. If you are willing to slaughter that many people (including children and babies) you are not "good" in any sense of the word. 

Excuse me, 99.99% of humanity. Jesus is only supposedly "saving" us from him. If he wasn't so set on sending us to hell in the first place we wouldn't need Jesus to "save" us. When I refrain from going next door and torturing my neighbor for not cutting the grass, would it make sense for me to claim that I am "saving" him?

Because I thought no other gods actually existed. Why is YHWH so insecure and afraid of people worshiping other gods? He is supposedly the most powerful being in the universe.  

Of course our mindset is different. Many of us have moved beyond the old outdated edicts of the bible. Even most people who claim to be Christian don't take a fundamentalist approach to the bible, which is a very good thing for society.

Crazy people never doubt the voices in their head. I once had a person tell me that beyond a doubt the government had implanted beetles in his skin that were eating him from the inside out. He was very sincere and didn't doubt it at all. He also didn't have any beetles in his body.

Why? If he is the only god, why is he so concerned? Couldn't he just reveal himself to everyone straight out? I don't really care to be faithful to a being that might decide to torture me just to satisfy himself that I am faithful. I really have a hard time imagining an all powerful being could be so vain. 

So the little girl runs the risk of growing up and becoming a heathen where she gets to suffer for eternity with me? Poor kid could have gone to heaven, but you just took that away from her. Surely the few milliseconds of pain from the bus is worth a guaranteed ticket to heaven. 

I never thought faith in God is peaches and cream, I think it is delusional. I'm just pointing out that throughout scripture he is reported using force for all sorts of things. 

Ah yes, the "Fire and Brimstone" approach. I have always been a bit of a fan of the Puritan fire and brimstone sermons. Preachers like Jonathan Edwards didn't even try to pretend that the god of the bible was a lovable being, just a super powerful being that is angry at us and we ought to thank our lucky stars if he decides not to crush us like cockroaches. So refreshingly honest, I love it.

Caring is quite painful if you know you will be separated from the person you care about for all eternity. It is exceptionally painful if you know the person you care about is suffering. So in heaven, either I would be in a lot of pain, God would have to somehow get me to no longer care about Grandma, he would have to bring my Grandma upstairs from hell, or he would have to lie to me and make me think my Grandma was there with me.

Do you see any other possibilities?

Do you approve of a God that separates loving family members from each other? 

Is that "good"?

Got plans to hang out with some of my closest friends tomorrow night and celebrate life. What greater purpose for existing could there possibly be? If I was in heaven, it is quite possible I wanted to get the hell (hehe) out of there. Why would I want to live my life trying to get back into heaven if I voluntarily decided to get out of it to live here? I must have had a good reason for leaving: probably no good booze and no fun women.

Technology has clearly killed far fewer than they have saved, which is why our population is higher and growing faster than ever. In the 20th century alone we went from 1.6 billion people to over 6 billion and are now pushing 7 billion. Even when you include brand new ways to die like cars, guns and bombs average life expectancy is significantly higher today than any time in history.   

No, that is exactly what "interpreting what I said" means. Just read EXACTLY what I write. It will save us all SO much time.

You're claiming knowledge of a supernatural thing that you can't even provide acceptable proof for. Anyone can make that claim. 

At this point, I have answered this question so many times already, that it is no longer reasonable to assume you didn't hear me the first dozen times I told you.

So I will simply repeat it once, and refer to it as "the underlined bit", when next you forget the answer.

If I knew how, then it would make no sense for me to ask you in the first place. I could do it myself.

First, "more rational" makes no sense here, no matter how much you want it to. Acceptable proof has not been provided yet. It can't BE anything. Remember this for longer than three seconds. 

Second, be more clear. What is the "it" I am proving in your question ? You faking something and presenting it as proof ? Then why ask "why I'm so sure it couldn't" ??? 

But I'm not linking the two. I never even brought that up. You did. You keep bringing up objections to things I never even said. Very weird. 

"Logical request", eh ? Than please do explain how it's logical that a person asking for acceptable proof for a supernatural claim should be able to explain exactly how that proof can be produced, since that would invalidate the question itself.

Read all those choices again, because I don't think you know what the word "random" means. 

...and he's forgotten the answer already. See underlined bit.

You turned it into something I didn't say, so yeah, it was pretty much incomprehensible. 

Please do explain why they don't. And if you do so later in this reply, then kindly ignore this question and skip to my reply to your, no doubt fascinating, explanation.

Ha ! No ! If philosophizing would count as acceptable proof, then you could provide acceptable proof for ANYTHING. You seem very keen on that prospect. 

Giving in to fiction ? Yeah, that does happen. It's called being suckered. 

The answer was there. You simply didn't read it. You do that a lot. Makes asking questions kinda redundant. 

No, again, I never asked you for anti-gravity. Read the three choices again. 

See underlined bit. Try to remember it for a little while longer now. 

You would explain fiction with more fiction, so no, that wouldn't count as an explanation. 

As for "explaining myself", see underlined bit again. 

Yeah, you certainly did. Didn't actually read it, apparently. Unless you'd like to claim that "proof for cars to proof for demons" is the same as "cars to demons". You missed quite a lot of letter there.

Can't be done, you say ? See underlined bit. 

What's the point ? You're going to pretend to forget it all again anyway. 

No, you simply reply to something I never said.

Yeah, that's me, always trying to drag you back to the facts. A fact is not an "excuse", btw. 

Actually, that was a perfect example of me being nice. What you gave me was nothing but an unfounded assumption, but I thought that might sound too harsh, hence "more stories". 

No, anyone can claim supernatural knowledge. That doesn't mean they can perform magic. If it did, every loudmouth and fantasist would be able to "summon demons".

You are taking your fantasies for reality, and you're asking ME if I'm "even thinking anymore" ? 

I'm sorry, but you have shown time and time again, that you either don't know what those words mean, or you simply don't care. You still like to use them, though.

Loops can be avoided by remembering my answers to your questions for more than three seconds, so you won't have to ask again. 

And since you're the one who was asked to produce acceptable proof for his supernatural claim, or admit there isn't any, you're the only one with access to the breaks here. Anytime you're ready.

See underlined bit, so yeah, AGAIN. 

See, that's the thing : You're not giving the others anything more than you're giving me. So that means you must hold them at the same "credibility level". 

No worries, I don't think they value your "levels" much.

Actually, not only did you do no such thing, you just gave it up in favor of another irrelevant topic.

Dude, I can't even get you to read or remember what I actually write. You don't know what "control" means either, do you ? 

Explain why we agreed to those rules ? Because, as you agreed, they made sense.

What ??? But you answered the question yourself ! Look, if you're going to start not even reading your own stuff now, then this is going to get unnecessarily complicated. 

See underlined bit. 

Why would I accept something I never even said ? 

How ? See underlined bit.

Hey, if you can actually do some magic that can't be faked, then sure, that would be acceptable proof for magic being possible. Don't let me stop you. 

Sure, but this isn't about "belief". This is about facts. Sorry. 

See underlined bit.

If I did, I would have asked for it. Read the three options again. 

Logical reasoning, you say ? See underlined bit. 

Again, facts aren't excuses, and if you're going to try to confuse the two, it's maybe best not the put the fact in bold yourself. 

If you are simply comparing one word to exactly the same word, then what point could you possibly be making ? That you can recognize letters ? 

False analogy. See, you simply don't listen.

You didn't answer the question and ignored the argument, but hey , you put in some smileys, so who cares, right ? 

Anyway, either produce acceptable proof for demons, or admit there isn't any.

I do, but not all of it created can be supported and backed up.

same answer that I've been giving.  If you care to understand that, you might want to start discussing it rather than accuse

yup, that must be it.  the "experiences" I was talking about were with the studies... though if we experience nothing, we know nothing, so therefore ignorance is bliss right?

I have been completely honest and up front.  I have not pretended anything but answered everyone directly.  I'm keeping it simple, you continue to assume I'm doing something more

k, so there are no other possibilities.... got it.

no, I want to see if you actually know what you're talking about or not... you seem to know something about what you're talking about... then again you don't always example that.  On the other hand, some on here don't at all know what they're talking about but pretend they do and get frustrated when I don't buy into it.

ok, how does that recidivism study tie into religious based abuse?  Just looking for your undrstanding of it.  

how many lives have changed for the better due to the belief I follow?  I'm willing to bet you have nothing for an answer.  There is a significant number.  if you say nothing, you have researched with bias.

can't remember.  I do remember you telling me that if I didn't understand, then to tell you.  I did

that's your response to that quoted statement???  o..k...

that's not what I asked

I've had a hard time taking him seriously.  You have one thing right though.. he hasn't tried... yes I know you said: "he has not had to try" which to me would imply he hasn't... agreed?

it's with the beholder of the knowledge... are you telling me you can pin any crime on the person who taught you its possibility?  

I'm not ashamed of my God and what Jesus did for us

does a teacher take responsibility for the crimes of their students?

you didn't answer mine yet... what action?

yes, lots

did I now.  you must have forgotten my friend who changed then... and the Christian murderer

easy, if what you say is true, there must be some documentation of all violent exorcisms and cases from court files regarding those.

that's fine... keep digging your hole.  I have told you and you still don't listen.  Let me know when you want to talk about rationales for metaphysics

are you finally admitting you don't understand what you're so aggressively attacking?

...and that's what you do... when you know the answer won't support your opposition, you go right back to the above.  

unlike what you seem to have made it out to be, this is not a win, lose senario.  

Leaving aside the fact that fire is not a conscious entity, this is only all the more reason for God to provide a way to summon and study demons such that they cannot "get out of control" even if you're not careful.

A mistake is an accident--it is unintentional. I don't see how having sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you at that time can be accidental. Also, I don't see how being married to your partner is at all relevant in deciding whether or not sex is okay in the given situation.

It's never been brought up because it seems the 2 big talkers haven't a clue about any of it.. however, if you wanted to have a conversation about it, I'm game.  Did you have a particular story you wanted to start with, from which culture, era?

I do believe that animals have an innate sense that allows them to sense the metaphysical.  I haven't done the research into it.  didn't think there was much on it.

Well you have me at an extreme disadvantage. I am remember particular accounts in my books that are all safely locked aware in storage. It was interesting to read accounts of devils and compare them to UFO lore. Dogs and many animals were fully aware of these supposed 'entities' very arosed. I am no caine behaviorist, but what was said it easy to see it was fear aggression. My guess because of Old and New Testament accounts would be sight. I so happens dogs so see in color. But are able to see the parts of the electromagnic wavelength humans and primates are not able to. This is just a hunch. Canines along with some bird species, such as starlings, the cones in their eyes are allowing them to see Ultraviolet light (UV) in some cases. This is all from so long ago I need a fact checker to go back and check every little thing. It lends itself to a science boardering on nutty pseudo-science in the hope to set up an experiment, for you lott.
Demons for some unknown reason, according to lore (have you), are tethered in a sense to a residence or a human subject. It seems within so many yards. Before I lose my validated parking I will be quiet now.

I've heard of the tie to UFO lore, which makes  a lot of sense to me.  How else would you explain an entity your'e not familiar with?  Alien maybe?  

That animal study you mention is interesting.  I'd love to look more into that and see if anyone's tried to study it further.

then why don't you?  you're the one claiming it's possible if demons exist...  I've repeatedly told you it's not how it works and I don't understand how it would.. you seem to have a better understanding than I, so I am looking forward to your results.

because if that person is convinced that it is possible if the subject in question exists and yet is told that it doesn't work that way by the experts, that person must give rational reasoning to that approach for study, otherwise, it cannot be linked to the study.  understand?

they leave it open to almost anything like the examples of anti-gravity and dark matter being proof which cannot also be linked to the study.

didn't think so.

it seemed to be the direction you've been heading

no, but by your rules, it's just as valid of a request, so why not anit-gravity?  give me something more than 'it's not what I asked for'

um... you're claiming you can make a demon powered generator, not me.  that's fact?  I guess if you say so, but i have yet to see any rationale to it from you or anyone.

yea, see, my mistake.  i actually read everything you write.  And when we finally get back to the point, of course i forgot.  I'll get better at ignoring the fluff as you'll see in this post

I am?  ok, let's stop now then.  Let's get to a point where we can actually make headway and get out of this ignorance roulette.  How about we start over with historical study of demons?

you haven't been reading others posts then have you. 

Caposkia

I was curious if you ever looked at the NDE accounts on YouTube? To Hell (And Back) ?? To be painfully clear the YouTube videos suggesting someone had clinically died and found themselves in Hell. Back from the dead, it's all the rage :¬ No reason but I was honestly very curious if you ever made the video search before. Huh, Look! Be very warned, most of the stuff if you were to bring it up to the thread is easily debunked and riddled with contradictions. I mean the YouTube presentations. So I can safely say a pure grief for any Christian. It comes to mind because of the demon thing again. I know someone from Southern Kalifornia had something closer to a vision than a actual NDE and was reportedly in a Hell like place. He reports Giant Bats and very large Rats in Hell. You know, God should have at least taken care of the Rats before he set it all up for the Devil and his angels. I wish I were joshing with you in all this. One of the das log (sorry tibetan term) was suggesting if youre a little kid (under the age of accountability), mind you, watched Ben-10 a toon then youre going to Hell! Sorry I was more curious if you ever looked at them. I have the experience of watching many of them. Roughly a full half of ALL THE TITLES available, clearly at least half. I couldnt (wince) recommend them to friend or foe alike. I guess they could be entertaining but I cannot see how they ever could. Let me known ?

Re:: Problem with link and problem with knowing which Alex Gee (w/ the Video Link) ?

  Nu 406 (OR 411)

T0 ::   Caposkia

   Having a problem with a YouTube video you gave out. Now Alex Gee, that was supposed to have said something, is a black man, right? Or some celebrity christian I am sadly unaware of,  right ?  To his view, was away from God  in his life, who admits at swearing at God, ( Isa. 6, ver 5 ), due to his private hurt and then loss of one of his daughters, I hear,  residue of the old man (double meaning).   You know, people like this, it's always their choice  to reshape attitudes toward life. But, it's this coloured man, the one who managed to renew his (personal) faith, as a christian?. Or, Is it Alex Gee (a white kid) at Williams High; I keep linking-to football games ?  You MUST have accidentally given the wrong link, I guess. Or is it my browser only that is the problem ? Please, I am sincerely sorry to trouble you about this. Could you assist me , with another link or one I could look-up myself on YouTube?. Safe bet he is the one over 30. Could turn out to be the young student.

     Another Ref.  ^ Hosea 6:5b   I, the LORD, killed you with the words of my mouth  . .   they were unfaithful to Me there

I can't speak for the demonologists.  Our reason is that our focus is not demons, it's God... and we constantly do extensive study on God... the other thing is we know that we should not put our God to the test.  We also know that God reveils himself all over the world every day... we know what we're looking for and we see it.  It's why the majority of people existing on this planet today have some sort of metaphysical belief from what I understand.  

It is also not our job to convince those who don't want convincing, rather it's to share what we know with those who do want to know God.   

Finally, i have yet to see a valid approach to testing God that takes into consideration choice and circumstance and yet still can come out with the same result each time.  If you have an idea, I'm all ears.

Most citizens would report you to the authorities because you're american.  They are taught to hate us.  You were not sent by their leader, so you will be of no help to them.  Instead you will be put in a camp, tortured and if you're lucky, killed soon afterward.

If this is not true, then why is it that most outsiders from around the world that go into their boarders uninvited by the leader directly end up in those camps?

Anthropology would find evidences of followings or belief systems that would be linked to the metaphysical.  I'm not sure what evidence an anthropologist would expect to find regarding remains of demons or demonic influences.  Typically, just like with God, demons work through the people or through the laws that have been put in place in this environmental system. 

What we'd have to look for is a link between a particular action that would have prompted a reaction from a metaphysical being that could be detected through archaeology, anthropology or geology.  

In my experience, and yes I have seen this happen quite a few times;  a small amount of money is left or dropped... say $20 or even $5.  All the groups of true followers where this has happened.. I'd say in my personal experience 3 or 4 times, the money is picked up, but rather than pocketed, it is donated to something where the money can be used for a positive reason.  The comprehension of the person donating is that the original owner will likely never be found and also thinks it's lost... also that the original owner would be sastisfied in knowing their lost money went to help someone else.  

I suspect you'd be right about the poker situation.  Any random public situation the money would likely be pocketed.  True Christians would donate it.  

I don't suggest it--I DEMAND it.

Get Out! Hold your horses there Tonto. One does not simply start with the Book of Revelation. HELP! Get Out ! Get Out of Town!! Hello! Help Me out, K? What could this all signify ? With this from the New Testament ? You cannot start with the Last and Final Judgment, (remember) ? Least not to mention, the general lack of essential specificity in the wording and language of some of the key passages. We do not know enough details about what the topography should signify, nor importantly who WAS in the prison of these 'spirits' that Christ went to preach to (and sorry no parable is enough by way to truly clarify).

Do you mind to be outlining a bit taking into consideration Christ's Descent into Hell & also Graves opening up, if you read the text, correct ? To refuse to do so contributes to a wrong view, IMO.

Caposkia wrote

{caposkia wrote }:

"If you read the Book of Revelation, everyone comes back for judgement. Some believe that when Jesus died, He died for all, even for those who died before his coming. If this is true, then in the time of judgement, these people have a choice to make. Is that unjust?".

BeyondSaving Replied:

"Yes. No crime is worth eternal punishment"

: See :: Image

Ancient Chinese Secret (tehe)
2 Cor. --
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. I (Paul) will boast about a man like that? But I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.

No. Ever try listening to a radio station that was just a little too far away? You don't hear a completely different track than what they are playing (your brain is a computer that analyses vibrations in the atmosphere and translates them into something you understand as sounds); you hear fragments of the track they are playing and static. It works this way in any analogy you can come up with. Light, sound, matter, energy, everything.
If, however, you view the brain as a multitude of mechanics that also happen to generate a conciousness; then extreme changes in behaviour and personality after brain damage make perfect sense. Different parts of the brain are different parts of you, and their being damaged means you are different.
It could even be argued that the original person is dead and has been replaced by a person which is only parts of the original.

What would you call it then? Your description sounds like magic to me.

I'm not making any excuses. I acknowledge it can't be proven absolutely that conciousness arises soley within the "physical realm" as you may or may not refer to it. But that doesn't mean it will remain so. Once upon a time it was impossible to prove that lightning wasn't the anger of the gods, but electrical discharges in the atmosphere. Or that the Earth is round. Or that stars in the sky are actually much like the sun, just much further away.
There may not in our lifetimes be the study that would convince you. You never know.

The building blocks of you constantly generate a problem, so the medication must constantly be delivered.
Perhaps one day we will be able to repair even genetic problems permanently with a single treatment or series of treatments, but that day is not today.

We can't see at least half of the universe, and with every day that goes by we can see less of it. That doesn't mean we discount its existence. Theists always make the mistake of assuming a black and white scenario, all or nothing. But our side doesn't function that way. Those of us who know more than most about how things work also know how little we know for absolute certainty. In reality, all of our existence might be an illusion, a hologram, or even a computer simulation. It simply doesn't do us any good to approach reality that way. It can even be detrimental.

See that doesn't help me. The word soul itself is broken, as it refers to what something isn't. The definition makes it worse, because it uses terms that are equally broken. A word is useless unless it refers to something. But soul, supernatural, spirit, and other terminology used by theists specifically refer to what something is not. I want to know what it is. What is the spiritual part of humans? What is it if it is not physical? Don't tell me it's simply not physical, I want to know what it is.

Sorry it took so long, but as you can see I had quite a bit of invested time in my response. I had to completely forget about it before I could come back to this.

He created us.  Would you use a product that wasn't first tested by its creator?  

here ya go.  brand new car!  What?  no, I didn't calibrate anything, I put the pieces together and so it should work.. try it out! 

The fact that scientists haven't come up with a valid approach to test supernova's, dark matter, black holes, etc. suggests that those things don't exist as well then.

it's a parallel to what you're asking me to do really if you want me to summon demons to test.  and the loyalty is out of fear.  If you do the homework you'll find out that many have escaped and run away, but the punishment for doing so is that every one of your family members left in North Korea will be put into those camps and tortured to death.  Would you leave if you knew it was putting your family in serious danger?  

why don't families leave?  Is it easy to sneak a few people out or a whole family?  especially if some of the family is really young or really old.  

Point and case to put it in context... you'd be a moron if you thought you could just walk into North Korea, go up to a random citizen, or better yet, a military personelle if you want to be very technical about the danger we're talking about and told them you want them to come with you can test their existence.   

Same with demons.  

I'm not sure where to even begin looking for such a link... i"m not an anthropologist.. however, archaeologists do look for links between historical stories in the Bible and evidence of the physical things talked about in the Bible.  So far they have found a lot.. there are books out there on the subject.  I suggest checking out the Archaeological study bible. 

people say the same about hanging and the electric chair, but it still happens... where is the line of morality?

In today's age, no... we have better ways of dealing with people... I also believe that killing people is giving them the easy way out and that they should live with what they've done and the consequences of it.

So you're trying to associate the Noah story with children today?  

God gives us choices... we do have to pay consequences for those choices whether good or bad.  The consequence of those people in that time was the death of themselves and their families.  They were warned of such consequences too and ignored the warnings.    If someone warned you that if you didn't stop doing X you, your wife, kids, pets grandma etc would all die, would you keep doing it?  I would stop... they didn't.

he did... if you read the story, the only ones he found to be... well not even innocent, but following Him strong enough to change was Noah and his family.

ok, so what is killing then?  Jail is taking freedom of living life in society away from an individual.  Understanding death with God existing, death is taking the freedom of living life in society away from an idividual.  Death is not the end.  It is understood that their spirit lives on, just not physically.  

so give everyone no choice.  You're more cruel than you claim my God is

this is why I believe it's a worse punishment to have to live with your crimes, but try to explain that to NH.. who has an extremely low murder rate.  

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-4

yes.  I've been called a lot of negative things, people tend to be very judgemental and less tolerant of others who oppose their beliefs etc on here.  

beyond that, I've seen places where God is strong and places where God is almost non-existent... there's quite a difference

some think so, but did we not know this was to happen?

What gives you the right to deny them the opportunity for existence?  If they never existed, they never have the chance at eternal salvation and therefore you're automatically denying them that salvation.  

no.  If they're capable of asking for assistance to be killed, they're capable of still making a difference in the world and thus should not be denied life.

I believe God knows all possibilities.  God created them as angels, servants to Him.  Your answer is a catch 22, if I say he messed up, God's not perfect, if i say he knew it was going to happen, God is evil.  

So, to answer your question, God knew what could happen and left it up to them and us to decide.  That way no one is a slave to him unless they choose to be.  

do you realize how nonsensical that is?  Same reason why we don't hold parents responsible if one of their grownup children murdered someone.   Why don't you hold someone else responsible for your own mistakes?  

every choice has a consequence whether good or bad.  God never threatened anything, rather He has revieled to us the consequences of our choices good and bad.  

That's clearer thanks.  I believe that's due to medical advances

I don't believe in a God because I can't fully explain consciousness.  That would not be rational

I agree

considering the comparison to a transmitter, it would be technological unless you think a radio is magic and has a miniature band or radio announcer sitting inside it ready to play or talk at your beck and call.  

seriously though, yes on the technological side, but no, it's not technology, it is what God created, not people.  technology is what people created.