If what you say is true, then this site would not exist be it that the debate inspired the site.

I tend to draw the line where people can't back themselves up.  One big reason why I'm still a believer.  The best non-believer defense I've gotten to date is; "it's not my job to prove a negative".  Great defense, but not convincing.  Rather, I'm looking for your reason for believing what you do, not for you to prove a negative.  Most get stuck here.

it was based on the dictionary definition...

Depends... Did you really think it would apply no matter what path you took?  That's not logical.  I've also talked with atheists who did find God, then after some other research, second guessed their finding and ultimately rejected it... to say they didn't find God would be inaccurate, rather they denied what they originally had accepted due to new information.  That happens a lot.  That's a personal choice and has nothing to do with the process being successful or not.  Just because you 'find' God doesn't mean you stick with Him.  

It's kind of like forgetting someone's name, then associating their face with another name.  Though you knew their name at one point, a lot of other information had caused your mind to reject your original understanding of who the person was and replace that with something else.  This scenario however has nothing to do with a conscious choice.  the choice of accepting or rejecting God is a conscious version of that.  It's simply a change of perspective... it's hard to remember what you knew in the way you knew it when a different perspective comes to mind.  

Consider why a celebrity doesn't do the same.  Unlike a celebrity though, God only wants to give time to those who want to know Him and follow Him and God doesn't need anyone to be successful or get by.  It's not how God wants you to know Him.  

What kind of God would he be if he was like;  *poof* here I am, now worship me!  Why would you worship a god like that?

There are Christian groups that study the process of God's work around the world, the most notable is the Vatican.  Despite their theological issues, they do have quite the record keeping and process of determining works of God.  Their particular focus seems to be the miracle healings from around the world, but they credit saints rather than God for those healings.  

Sure, but there's really no way of knowing when or how they would... or even a way of setting up a scenario that would cause them to interact with the physical.  Although it seems some cults have a method ;P

Cogito ergo sum
Quid pro quo

Most major dictionaries list roughly the same two distinct definitions for 'atheism'. They are: "lack of belief/disbelief in the existence of deities" and "belief that no deities exist". I think the first is far more accurate, but it seems you think the second is, correct?

Are belief and disbelief really a matter of 'personal choice' for you? Because they certainly aren't for me...

Because celebrities aren't omnipotent...?

Well, I wouldn't worship anything, but that's just me.

Just to be clear, does this 'God' you speak of possess the three classic 'omni-' attributes (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent)? I just want to be fully informed before I attempt to address your above comment.

That's very unfortunate...  If spirits are real, they certainly seem to prefer being hidden and poorly understood...

No... it's not.... missed the point... anyway

Sure, ok... why not.  Where would you like to start?

wow! you know me better than I know myself!  How could you possibly know that about me?  If it's based on your assumption of what's real, then I'm sorry, but you have yet to back yourself up on that belief.  I'm all ears however.

no, I didn't... but who said there was nothing at all?  Oh wait, it was you.  What are you looking for as evidence here?  Sounds like you haven't found it.  Just because you can't accept it doesn't make it untrue.  Yes, Harry Potter is also a concept you can't accept, but does that make him real to me?  Stop categorizing things with irrelevance and look at the bigger picture.  

The difference with your fictional stories debate vs. the Christianity debate is 80% of the world can agree with Christianity on the idea of a spiritual existence being a reality.  

righttt......

did I claim that defense was from you?

Ok... lemme back track here.  arrogance isn't going to get you far.  I apparently missed somehow the 'evidence' you were looking for.  I'll post my reply in the next post when I find what you had responded with..  Sorry for missing it...

**edit**

Oh wait... I just went back... Are you referring to the "get me one of those demon things" and the picture post?  You were serious?!  You think that's what demons are... and that I can just pick one up at the corner market?  Sure, ok... and you wonder why I didn't respond to that with rationality.  You're so diluted in reality being only that which smacks you in the face when you walk into it that you honestly thought the fictionalized depiction of demons is what we believe in... and Santa Claus is really Tim Allen and not a folk lore of a Turkish Christian from the 1500's who used to give food to poor families by putting it in stockings hung on window sills.... 

Seems to me that we need to back track quite a bit and talk a bit of education on what demons really are before we talk about what you would accept as evidence for possession.... what do you think demons really are??? according to Christians that is.

Proud of it???  I am excited to learn more, and believe it or not, those who oppose my belief either by contradicting religions or non-belief are the ones who have taught me the most about what i believe.

this sounds to me like you have a history... care to share?  Is this what Christianity is to you?

  Well, since the Old and New Testaments supposedly have angels acting as God's messengers and heralds and manifesting themselves if not in corporeal form then at least in visible form then their "different level of existence" doesn't seem to be a hindrance at all. 

 Their visible / audible appearances to humans is obviously a matter of choosing to do so, not their status as supernatural beings.

Did the Virgin Mary appear in 1531 to an Aztec peasant or did she just send a registered letter due to her "different level of existence".

     "Dear Juan Diego, I really wanted to show myself to you in order to strengthen your faith but since I am now of the supernatural realm and living in a different level of existence I am unable to make the journey so I had to send a letter instead.  Yours truly, The Blessed Virgin Mary™, Mother of God"

So you learn by not listening to people. 

I think you might be slightly confused about what "learning" actually means.

'Kay. 

So I was reading this thread on the board about exorcism, and all the horrible crap done to Anneliese Michel, all because her folks wanted to believe in even more horrible crap, and I thought, gee, this is so dumb, so incredibly cowardly, surely somebody who actually believes this idiotic mumbo jumbo would be too ashamed to admit it.

And then 'lo and behold, you popped up.

Since we only have christians to represent christianity, such as your sweet self, that's all I have to work with.

That's a very good point... but then does that mean that all spiritual beings have the ability to choose in that way?  Also, this would go back to God, we're specifically talking about angels, and the Bible specifically talks about in many instances; "open their eyes".  In other words, God is intentionally hiding the spiritual realm from our site unless He feels it necessary to see them.  Therefore I conclude that it's not so much the spirits choosing, rather Gods.

could have been a letter via angel... I do wonder about the appearance of specific spirits who were once human.  I have the... assumption at this point that when people think they're seeing a specific person, they may be seeing an angel or demon and not necessarily that person... I cannot back that up however, which is why I say I make the assumption at this point in time.  

I only question it because it doesn't sound like Biblically that dead people are wandering around on Earth waiting to be seen by the living.  

is that the writing found?  I've never heard of such an encounter before

My missed the point comment was to say that you misconstrued what I posted originally and... missed the point.  We're beyond that anyway.  If I hadn't really thought of it, then this would be the reason why i talk to people like you.  I have learned a lot from those who oppose my belief.

no, you're the one who has concluded that from ignorance...(no offense intended)  I offered it to you becasue you brought up the categorization with everything else fictional.  That angle will of course never allow you to seriously persue the topic.... and that's your choice.

I've learned of that method being on here... By you concluding that by the way, you're insulting the intelligence of those who are having serious extended conversations with me.  I would deem them quite intelligent people... and I know they wouldn't be talking to me if what you said is true about me.

no you don't.. you decide the answer before researching... it's a typical response.  that was sarcasm btw.

oh I don't know, depends on the context... if it's only epilepsy, then of course not, would not fit the definition of possession.  Just like any illness, one needs to make the diagnosis.  I'm glad you're not a doctor... you're not a doctor are you?!

right back at ya

you and I have not gotten past your fiction association... if that's backing yourself up, I know you wouldn't buy it if I did that to you, so why do you expect me to buy into your belief with that approach?  This is what I'm talking about when I mentioned drawing the line...

because you haven't presented anything rational or logical... I'm thinking intentionally.

... ok so by what you have presented.... if I give you a demon action figure per the picture link you posted, you'll believe?

referring to harry potter.... phew, I was getting worried for a second... you do have a limit to the fictional association.  

what case?  I haven't gone anywhere with you in this conversation... you've already made the conclusion before the conversation really started which disallows any rational persuit of the topic.

so then your conclusion is that if it's popular, it can't possibly be true... got it.  A rational mind might come up with a better defense here.

ok, what would you accept as proof... a fictionalized picture and a demon genearator is not rational evidences... it goes right up there with Brian needing to fart out a car to believe...  

I can propose the same irrational expectation using factual science... show me dark matter exists by building me a house out of it... not possible, not rational, not logical to base a conclusion of existence on.

you're not the only one I'm talking to here. I may bring it up in your post responses to tie it in to the general conversation..

it came out as arrogance... and due to the fairness of the question, did I not go back and look?  not arrogance huh...

I never claimed to know more than everyone, which is why I talk to people like you... Also, can you reference this demon-controlling device as you suggest is used by a biblical character?  

I apologize, but those types of 'evidences' sound irrational... if there was such a thing in the Bible then I'll stand corrected.  

Also, I don't think you understand what you're asking for... It'd be like you asking to go into north Korea to get a soldier and try to control him... What do you think would happen to you?  What allegedly happened to Mr. Crowley?  

I don't think you were... and if you were, I'm laughing at the outrageous understand of demons that you seem to have... I"m sorry if that offended you.  Talk about fiction though.  

right here... this is why I have a hard time taking you serious though... you have already concluded and... I don't know, think you're going to convince me of your belief by throwing fictional irrationalities at me... 

I think you misunderstand my postition on here.  I actually want to have an open minded conversation about it.  If I'm wrong with my belief... it will be revieled in that conversation.  I have changed my stance on things here and there due to open minded conversation.. its how I came to believe what I do. 

no they weren't rational.. I didn't think you were being serious.  Seems I was wrong.

Same way you'd know when anyone else is just kidding.  Just because you find the concept silly and irrational doesn't make it impossible... just look at the 'impossible' technology we use daily... the telephone, TV, cars that can travel 100's of miles in a few hours, etc.  

Is it true that you will never accept anything that you don't know?  Here's a question... why are so many people convinced of a spiritual existence? 

Alright, educate me... please reference scriptures so I can do the homework... if what you say is true, I will accept it.  

That's ok... there are others out there that if what you believe is really true, will convince me of such... So far however, the latter seems to be happening.

safer shores??? i feel like we haven't even left the parking lot yet.  This is strangely close to a response I'd get from someone who is trying to avoid more dangerous waters. If it's so safe... it seems like we haven't been goign anywhere anyway, why the heasitation to go there?  

I'm not worried... as i see it... if you're right... I want to know.  I've been on this site for a long time with an open mind to everything everyone has presented to me... strange how I'm still a believer... you may not believe that I've been accepting and researching everything that everyone is telling me... but then that's you're problem now isn't it?  I make that statement based on our conversation to this point... you're not one to easily accept anything anyone tells you no matter how much truth is rooted in it.

so... ultimately... either demons exist by irrational proof... or they don't... interesting... so there can't be any other way of investigating besides a deomon generator or a demon controlling device?  

First can you reference where requested so I can look into it further?

By the way, either buy me a mercedes, or admit that cars don't exist... Same type of request... What do you think the result's going to be?  I'm willing to bet you either can't or won't buy me a mercedes.  So it'd be logical then for me to conclude that cars don't exist right?

why cars?  it's that obvious to me that demons exist and that irrational to me what you're asking for as far as proof or evidence.  

To caposkia:

Is a demon a type of spirit? If so, how are you so certain disembodied consciousnesses exist? Do spirits leave ANY sort of clues behind when they interact with the physical/material world?

Do you understand that not everything the Bible says is reliable?

Do you understand that until there is a replicable way to test for the existence of spirits, studying them scientifically will be nearly impossible?

I'm looking at Supreme being vs. God... To me that seems the same, though if you look at "personal God" vs. supreme being, then I see the fundamental difference... I understand what you're saying.  I stand corrected in that case.

you saw the link as to why I said what I said though right?

It seems so.

My conceptions about how non-believers think has been learned by being on this site... I also explicitly stated that it does not apply to all.  I would say those of my friends whom are not believers themselves have the general understanding of non-theism and aren't really atheistic.. I would also say that most non-believers are not athiest.   I believe we were focusing on atheism specifically right?

I tend to respond to the person in the way that they respond to me.  I have seen little effort from Anonymouse in the way of actually trying to have a serious conversation.  I have apologized to him for not taking him seriously when he said he was being serious.  I made a mistake there.  I'm used to people on here responding like him who actually have an adjenda to "prove me wrong" in any way they can, usually by irrational means.  Anonymouse seemed to be walking down that same path.

If my responses to anonymouse seemed condescending in any way, that was not intentional and I apologize to all and especially to anonymouse.  All in all, If anonymouse feels I'm being condecending, I'm sorry.  I mean all the respect in our conversations.  I will be more careful in my future posts to be sure my responses are not taken the wrong way.  

NO! The difference is "belief there are no gods" versus "lack of belief in gods"--the first declares the existence of god(s) to be impossible; the second does not. I say the second is more accurate because I don't know of any atheists who say it's impossible any sort of god exists--they're simply not convinced one actually does. Kind of like how Anonymouse is open to believing in demonic possession IF he's presented with sufficient evidence.

I'll try to go back and respond to everything else later; I just really wanted to clear up this whole definition thing...

Alright, did it.. 

you make a lot of assumptions.  I hope assuming is not your truth.

I have not told you anything in our conversations.  We haven't gone anywhere.  How do you base conclusions on nothing?  I thought that's what you thought I was doing?

If you ask people I've had extensive conversations with, they would tell you I am extremely open minded.   I tell everyone and I will tell you the same.  If you tell me something that goes against what I believe and can rationally and empirically back yourself up with it, i will accept it.  You have not done that.  Sorry. 

sure, it was never based on a true story... and the fact that it was a movie automatically makes the story fiction.  No movies have ever been based on reality... ever...  Got me there.

thus again concluding based on nothing.... I'll get to more of that in a minute.

no, i was talking about demonic possession.  I'm glad you brought that up though, it shows why we haven't been able to talk on the same level.

If you didn't get the clear hint by now, I'm looking for something more rational as far as proof you'd be looking for... what else... if that's all you'll accept as proof, I'm sorry.  You'll have to believe I'm delusional or believing in an imagination.  I won't lose sleep over it.  

ok, but YOU are the one predetermining the truth without rational investigation.  It also sounds like you want me to believe what you're telling me.  You are allowed to demand proof.  I have made it clear that what you were looking for is not rational for the subject at hand... you're stuck on that being the only possible proof for the existence of spirits... or more specifically, demons.  We can't go anywhere if you're stuck there.

more assumptions again.  Do you see why I'm having a hard time taking you seriously?  You have an adjenda against my belief... you're not thinking rationally... do you see that?  You're reaching for anything that can defend your case without actually supporting it.  Despite the fact that I believe in demons, you dont'... both of us have a positive to prove, me, demons exist, you reality is not spiritual.

Be it that I told you that point blank, I hope you could conclude that... sorry... had to say it.

I'm remembering everything... dont' want to forget any of it... but I do want to move on to more rational grounds with this subject... are you ready to do that?

Anonymouse.  I am opening the door to you as far as what you would be looking for... i am more than willing to bring you any rational evidence you ask.. however, it has to be rational to the subject at hand... you can't ask for a wand from Harry Potter then tell me to conjure up a demon with it... just doesn't work that way.  Until you can accept that evidence you asked for is irrational, we have a problem.  

Also, I am not willing to "conjure up a demon" for you.  do you realize what we'd be messing with?  It's obvious you don't.  

Tell me strait out... Do you really care to hear evidences or are you truly bent on disproving it once and for all?  If you care at all, read posts on this thread besides your own.  You and I are apparently both type A and at this point likely won't get far.  I'm not going to give in to your fantasies without rationalities to grasp onto and you're not going to give into mine for the same reasons.  Yes, your fantasies are reality I get it... so are mine.  So who's right?

yea, I've noticed

funny, I typically am the one that tries to bring people back to the conversation and... just like right now... am the one that tries to keep the conversation progressing.  

You've given an irrational ultimatum... either appease your fanatical evidence needs or admit that what I believe is fantasy.  So prove something is not fantasy with fantasy.

Just to put it in perspective, believers believe that those who try to pull people from their walk with God are "putting them in danger"  Yours is physical, ours is spiritual.  So I question your belief just as you question mine.  Yes, again I have not forgotten that I am the one claiming demons exist, but you're claiming that it's obvious they don't... with such certainty in your understanding you must have something that supports this understanding... that's all I'm looking for from you. ...oh and lack of proof is not proof. I'm still willing to look into rational evidences.

He... did?.... What chapter and verse?  I was just reading through that with PJTS and that never once came up.  Don't remember reading it either... if you can't give chapter and verse, at least what book is it in? 

good job ignoring that post.  I asked you a direct question.

Good to know.  Just because other people believe as you seem to think they do doesn't mean I believe the same way.  There are over 5000 different denominations in the USA alone.  Each thinks they have the right understanding... There are many different understandings of what demons/spriits etc are... there's only one right way.. I have worked hard to have a better understanding of all of it... i can't say that I am an expert, but i have been able to eliminate a lot of the fanatical stuff.

I never once expected you to just accept anything I have said... however, I do expect you to accept your fault when told point blank that your expectation of evidence is irrational.  i have explained quite a few times now that it doesn't work that way.  

I honestly dont' think demons is where you should start...  It seems you have not investigated the topic thoroughly.

yea, knowing demons exist is quite comforting... I'm so glad there's a being out there that has a passion to destroy my life.  How could I live without that!

Its true, seeing as the 2 Cor references were actually talking about people decieving and not specifically demons... it did reference to how Satan decieves and that people who do the same are his servants.  Beyond that, it all needed citation.  As far as what they look like, it's an artists depiction, though described by demonologists, it's still fanatical.   Artists also draw pictures of God, but no one alive has seen God.   How do you draw something you haven't seen?  In the greatest way your mind can to grab attention.  To put it into perspective, angels aren't typically small or friendly looking.  A Cherub is something monstrous and threatening looking as well.  They may look threatening, but they look like fallen angels.  That's what they are.   As 2 Cor was describing they work in decieving ways.  They will use others and if they need to appear, will appear different than they look.

What of the Solomon reference?  I was looking for Biblical reference be it that outside of scripture, there really isn't much in the way of information regarding these topics.  

Balls been in your court... I need to say it again.. your expectation of evidence was irrational... it doesn't work that way... Do you have another way of accepting it?  if not, then we'll have to talk about possibilities and why you would or would not accept that approach.  

then why do you keep doing it that way?  

If these obvious facts include:  'you're the one that believes in fantasy' and what you believe is false... yea, it's hard to accept that as proof of my understanding being wrong.

don't take my word for it... ask around.  You might want to take some self reflection on that statement as well.

You're the one that's so determined that I'm wrong and are convinced I don't have an open mind...  If you're not willing to confirm that and it bothers you, your problem.

What you asked for was irrational proof... I've asked you several times now for another approach and you've ignored that by saying: "don't blame me for the rediculousness of things you believe in"... or other quotes along that line.  I will say again, that is the approach of those who are not willing to change their mind... usually I get that from religious fanatics.

Those things actually exist now... I have yet to see your evidence for a demon controlling device... I will read through the samuel books and kings, but if you could give me a more specific Bible reference to that special ring, It'd make my job easier.

...and you're assuming that things that actually exist dont' include anything you're not aware of.  There are a lot of mythical stories based around many creatures, but it does not negate their existence... e.g. wolves. 

nope, if you can't buy me one, they don't exist.  

well, I did.... and. uh... I have made many references to moving on... if you choose to repeat yourself, that was your choice... I have made it clear what you have told me isn't rational and sufficient for me to change what I know.  Your game here.  I follow your lead... that's what i've been doing from the beginning.  

Others have noticed how I respond to you.  I hope you saw my sincere apology if anything felt degrading to you... however, I hope you also notice how I talk to them in comparison to how I'm talking to you.  It is drastically different... wonder why that is???

If you're going to base that on the definition discussion, that's poor grounds... they're simply ones who don't believe... PERIOD.  As far as definitions are concerned, there are many categories and cross categories... you'll notice however, I was mistaken in understanding the difference between lack of belief and not believing.  That was a definition issue and not a misunderstanding of the people. 

ah. ok.

Ah yes, the redirection of the context to avoid the point... Haven't seen that one before

I know what people are capable of and the avenues they use as an excuse for doing so...  I also know the truth.

k

...and you think that's what demon possession is... hmph

Sure, have a ball... it won't get us anywhere, but go for it if it makes you feel better.

not at all.. it is quite relevant.  You're stuck on the idea that all possession stories are an excuse because that's all you know, yet those are not congruent with Biblical claims.  A real Christian is more of what was... and has been lost in Christiandom for many today.

well, let's put it this way... If you publicly burn the American flag and/or fly it below another flag, degrade the american people, try to assassinate government officials, bomb American buildings in the name of your deity,  Spit on national icons etc, yet hold a citizenship are you a true American?  

Oh...well...um...that's wonderful! I'm really, really glad you weren't intentionally misunderstanding.   And, you're quite welcome!

A pleasant, productive conversation with a Christian theist...?  I must have died and gone to heaven... 

Wait...before I get my hopes up...do you think I deserve eternal punishment?

well, i deserve it, I have not been able to follow God's laws appropriately.  Have you?  

Actually, what you did was repeat the same fallacies and add a few more. I'll try to group them all together as much as I can.

No need for hope. Facts enough for everybody.

You sure do talk a lot for someone who's not telling anybody anything. But that's not an evasion tactic ? Right, my mistake.

Since what you tell me is "nothing", according to you, why are you even talking ? Any other loops you'd like to go round-and-round in ? 

Uhm, again, you're the one claiming demons exist, not me. We'll get into the "irrational evidence" bit right away, but before we do that, I thought I'd give you a chance to figure by yourself why that doesn't make sense....

No ? Okay, moving on then...

I got you misrepresenting what I actually said, yes, but you do that so often, it's hardly worth pointing out. 

You're making assumptions. 

Yeah, me too.

Again, assumptions. 

Ah, here it is, the admission that you can't prove your claim. Thank you.

And now you're actually telling me what proof I should be looking for. You're looking for me to look for something else. Right.

Again, I'm going to give you a little time to figure out by yourself why that doesn't even begin to make sense...

Nothing ? Okay, I'll explain, but only once this time. If you make the same mistake again, I'll just refer to this :

If demons are real, then of course the proof I'm asking for is going to seem "irrational" to you. You'd be the first person in living history to produce such proof, so it's going to seem even a little more far-fetched than just "irrational".

But if they are real, which you claim, then it's possible for you to produce it, no matter how "irrational" it seems to you and everyone else. 

But since, you already admitted you can't, well, case closed. No proof for demons. 

When you say "what case ?" , when we only mentioned one, and you were the one who brought it up, is it then really unfair to assume you forgot ?? Oh, okay then. I'm sorry I assumed you forgot which case when you said "what case". 

Yeah, I do. When you said "what case ?", I assumed you forgot which case. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me.

Yikes ! Apparently not. 

Well, I guess making assumptions is suddenly okay again. Oh, just about me, you mean ? Oh, okay.

Uhm, yeah, this "spiritual reality" of yours, can you prove it exists anywhere besides your imagination ? I'm afraid we're both stuck in the same reality, sans demons.

Yeah, I addressed and solved that problem for you already. It's just below the underlined bit. 

Since you haven't yet managed to prove these things even exist, fantasizing about what they can do is ridiculous. 

So you put the evidence in another post ??? Why ? I'm the one who's been asking for it. Oh, you mean something you consider evidence, such as hollywood movies ? Okay, tell me where it is, and I'll explain why it doesn't prove a thing. I'd be very surprised if the person you were talking to hasn't already done that.

Huh ? What ? Your fantasies are reality ? Did you really just say that ? 

"Funny", followed by a misrepresentation of the facts. See, I do read other people's posts.

See above, under the underlined quote. Oh, and I already explained why asking for evidence in those cases is about as far from "fanatical" as you can get. 

Lack of proof is lack of proof. It's 100% accurate to say that there is no proof for "demonic possession". That's the sentence of mine that sparked this little mini-novel writing competition we're having now. Are you now saying you agree ? 

As for the rest of it, look above, below the underlined sentence. 

Someone else just told you, and you've already dismissed it. As if that even matters. Again, look above, under the underlined bit.

You were being serious ? Sorry, as mentioned before, it's almost impossible to tell. Well, I can easily ignore your hypothetical soldier and Mr Crowley too, as none of them offer proof for demons, which is what I'm after. Again, see above. You should be able to find it by now.

Oh, and if you're suggesting now you can't get me the proof because it would be too dangerous, then I'll happily explain to you again that you can't explain away one fantasy by making up another.  You can't start making up magical powers for your demons before you even prove they exist. 

As long as you still believe they exist, your denomination doesn't matter.

And I just explained why it does. Again, see above.

Yes, that must be why I knew more about the case you mentioned than you did.

When someone has allowed their religious delusions to lead them to murder a child or a sick person, it's indeed a lot more comforting to believe you were defending that person against supernatural evil, rather than just torturing them to death. It's indeed easier to live believing you were a hero, rather than know you are a murderer.

Okay then, now you know where the look of the thing is based on. Glad to help.

Again, see above.

See above

The facts include, you believe in demons, and I don't.  I asked for proof. You didn't give me any. It really is that simple. (And the solution to the  "irrational proof" mystery is just below the underlined bit)

Okay. Hey Brian ! Got a question for ya...

Open 24/7 for proof. 

All I said was it's easier to say "I have an open mind" than actually having one. This does not cause any problems for me. 

Again, look for the underlined bit. And I've dealt with the "fanatic" accusation enough times too.

YES ! By George, he's got it !

Do I even have to say it ? The sad thing is, I probably do : You're the one who's supposed to produce the demon-controlling ring, not me. 

Been done. Dismissed by you. Explanation as to why that doesn't matter even a little, also done. Yup, we're almost there. Phew.

Wrong again, I'm telling you I can prove a car is real without buying you one. This proof would consist of an actual confrontation between you and the car. Heck, you even get to drive it. I'll take you to a zoo to see some wolves.

So actually driving the car would fit your definition of "irrational evidence" ? And you still don't see why your "irrational evidence" argument doesn't make sense ? Really ?

I've tried to make it easy for you by underlining the most referenced explanation. Hope that helps. 

Oh dear, I wouldn't get my hopes up about that. TLdr, you know..

Degrading ? Don't be silly. 

I already explained why that is. Doesn't bother me, though. And rest assured, it doesn't bother them.

Okay, so you do listen sometimes. So by learning you mean you just draw your own conclusions from what people are telling you, even if those conclusions are in direct contradiction to the facts that support what they are telling you ? 

Yeah, I'm sure you can keep stacking misinterpretation upon misinterpretation ad infinitum. Glad I caught you doing that early. 

"Demons exist" is what you call truth, isn't it ? That's exactly what they use as an excuse for their crimes.

No, I don't believe such a thing exists. You do. It's the same pattern as the Anneliese Michel case, which you believe is genuine. Religious people who believe in demons, decide one resides in a child/helpless person, and proceed to torture that person to death, to the tune of their theatrical make-believe rituals. Is it the degree of torture that makes a "real" demonic possession for you ? Because that is the only real difference here.

You asked if I really associated everything by one occurrence. Now you have your answer.

And if you really think this is a "ball", or somehow "makes me feel better", then I guess this is one of those times when you weren't listening.

No, what I am "stuck" with are people who believe "demon possessions" are real, and who want inflict their belief on other, defenseless people. What may or may not have happened in biblical times cannot be verified, so it's irrelevant. Worse than irrelevant. People will use those stories to strengthen their delusions, and feel even more justified to perform their sick rituals.

 Freedom of religion means you can believe whatever you like. If you want to believe you can do all those things and still be a true American, then you can, and you will. I'm sorry, but your analogies never work. 

You're welcome!  The, uhhh--repetitious nature--of the conversation allows for quicker reading. 

Awww, thanks   you're so nice to me--it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy 

LOL, yeah...   Not so sure about caposkia, though. He seems rather convinced about what is real and not real in the supernatural/spiritual realm...

I follow your lead

I'm ready when you are to progress in the conversation

Based on what you've told me so far... please... PLEASE... prove me wrong here.

Let's take out the parts that talk about how it's going to seem to me and take your statement literally.... "If demons are real... ...You'd be the first person in living history to produce such proof..."  

Um... heh.. I'm sorry.  Maybe I'm way out in left field here... but... If demons are real... AND I'd be the first person in history to produce the proof you're asking for... doesn't that suggest that the proof you're asking for may just be irrational???

If demons are real... why would you automatically assume I have such power or connection to the demonic realm?

Right... still no Mercedes in my driveway... Case closed... No proof of cars existing.  

There is evidence all around... but instead of walking with you into a theological library, it might be easier for you to pick a rational means of proof and then we can go from there... it's illogical to ask for a demon to be brought to your presence...  It'd be more logical to maybe suggest... oh wait.. If I say that, then you're going to suggest that I'm telling you what you should accept for proof... so instead... why don't you tell me something rational that you'd accept... no, what you've asked for is not... for someone who claims that this reality doesn't exist... i don't believe you have a position to suggest what would be rational on the topic... I have explained that it doesn't work that way... If you've followed the other conversations on here.. You'll also see why your "magic demon ring" source is a poor reference to Biblical truth.  It doesn't work in the same way that punching holes in my car tires won't make my car fly.  

Just follow through the last page or so...  You have not been asking for much... You're stuck on your original request... which I've become a broken record about... if you're so sure about your position, why not try other approaches... you have nothing to lose right?

Yes, I did just say 'your fantasies are reality'... reread it... I left it up there so you could read it carefully.

right after you asked me what posts I was talking about???? ok.. so you read some... and select out of everything said the one thing that fits your ideals... are you sure you're not a religious nut?

I replied to that.. recheck.  How do you feel about an alleged OT book only being found in Christian archives?

Right you're after the answer, but aren't willing to do the footwork to get to it... good luck

Sure, that has happened... does it make something non-existent?  Let's put it in a different light... there are people out there who do just that, and justify themselves by saying there is no God so it doesn't matter... does that automatically validate God?  Of course not.  Seriously... I mean it's obvious you have an adjenda... don't need to assume when you write it as clear as day... anyone who cared to know would have tried a different approach by now.  

...now... any proof??? or your LOTR demon control ring.

ok good. No worries then

you did not give me book and verse... someone else had to tell me... a book they admitted to not being able to find in their Bible... interesting

Right... but you see, I'm playing; you, in this scenario... instead of opening my mind to the possibilities of obvious ways you can prove to me those things exist.. i'm stuck on the only way I see fit for accepting it...  Do you see where I'm going with this yet?

you still don't see that I'm taking your angle here??? really???

well, someone else said they felt that way about my posts, so I wanted to make sure you weren't feeling that way... Speaking of Brian, despite our differences in belief, we both agree that we could go out and have a beer together no problem... I'm not here to make enemies.

I don't need to say or not say anything--I'm already nearly certain you think everyone deserves hell because you think no one can "follow God's laws appropriately".

I sincerely doubt you have the slightest clue as to why I want to stop. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt--why do you think I want to stop now?

I said I don't want to talk--not that we're done talking. While I still don't want to talk, I feel I need to for at least a bit longer to help clear things up...

Ok, I'd really like some examples before I believe this...

It's typically a hard place to reflect.  No one wants to hear that they deserve anything of such nature if they do.  To admit that one does is extremely difficult.  I was assuming that you answered the question yourself and by answering it have determined that you as well had not followed God's laws appropriately.  I shouldn't assume though.

Maybe.. and this is why I phrased it as a question, you're like Enoch and have found favor with God.  I also don't know you, so I can't make that call for you and I have not decided that you do or don't deserve eternal punishment.  Therefore, instead of making assumptions, why is it that you stopped?