right, so your game analogy is out the window.  As you said, traits which has previously been overshadowed or controlled may become dominant.  In other words, though it's not really you, they are still parts of you that didn't define you previously.  There's the distortion.  

We could go on with this till we hit 1000 pages.  I think we both agree the brain is complex.  I think we both disagree about the brain receiving anything other than the 5 known senses to make us who we are.  

My point is the brain is complex and in that complexity, when parts get damaged, what you knew or know doesn't necessarily become portrayed... some may be forgotten, some may be lost... the results of the damage hold water for the transmitter receiver understanding be it that it is so complex and it's also possible that it's nothing more than a storage device as you interpret and when it gets damaged, those files are corrupt and change or become modified typically not in a useful way.  

ok.... I don't follow

I understand.  I'm glad you didn't choose to conclude that your hypothesis must be the only answer.  It seems most who can't explain something choose to accept the only thing that might make sense rather than deducing the point that there could be something more going on.  

i do.  I love learning more and more about it.  Though for me, the more I learn, the more I see God in it.

except that He told us we were in charge of it... which then would open up an opportunity for us to change it.  He gave people more power than you're giving Him credit for scripturally.

Genesis says Adam and Eve brought the knowledge of good and evil into the world through eating the fruit.  Yes, that's hard to grasp.  Let's look at it this way.  In nutrition, certain foods can give you certain abilities.  E.g. good proteins can help you build muscle, if you don't get enough, you won't build muscle, carbs replenish glycogen and fats do a number of things including transport and store certain vitamins and give a back up energy when carbs run out.  Point here is those fruits gave them the ability to know pain and the difference between good and evil.  It installed an understanding and an ability if you will.

So to follow God you have to be willing to murder your son and willing to get tortured to death so that he is content that you believe in him. I remain in absolute amazement that an omnipotent being could be so vain and expect so much from lower lifeforms. I would never expect anyone to go through that in my name; I would be horrified if they did. 

The same type of evidence that would suggest demons. Since we can't summon a demon for study because they are too dangerous, can we summon god? Just say "hey god, we are using this brain thing that you gave us and discovered a great way to analyze reality called the scientific method. Could you please come here for a few minutes and give us some evidence of your existence?" Since God really loves us, and wants us to know he exists, he should have absolutely no problem providing us with physical evidence right?

Hollywood basis their stories off of all sorts of things. Most of which is fictional. Their portrayal of demons is as much evidence of their existence and if they exist, their behavior as Harry Potter is evidence for the existence of House Elves. Do you believe in House Elves?

I consider adultery about as severe as burning an American flag at a funeral and I think they should have the exact same punishment: none. Do you think we should punish people who burn flags at funerals as severely as we do murderers and rapists?

Ah yes, I am a mere mortal who am I to question God. Do you think that we shouldn't question the motives and actions of a being simply because it is more powerful than us? If God didn't want us to question him, why did he build us with the capacity to question? If I can't understand, it is his faulty construction right? 

I am guessing that you are married. If your spouse cheated on you, would you support a punishment similar to punishments for murder?

I have been told by numerous Christians that you must accept Jesus Christ as your savior or you will go to hell. It is impossible to accept someone you do not believe in as your savior, therefore, if you do not believe in god and Jesus you are automatically going to hell no matter how great of a person you are. Are you saying that isn't true? 

I can think of dozens of ways an omnipotent being could have handled people who were not behaving the way he wanted without resorting to drowning, stoning, and physical pain. If I can think of dozens, I imagine that an omnipotent being could think of billions. And again, if he knew what was going to happen before it did, why did he create a system where so many innocent people would suffer? He could have saw what was coming and fixed it before the damage happened.

If you could live your life knowing the results of all of your actions, wouldn't you choose the actions that caused the least amount of suffering? Suppose for example that you knew that if you leave your house at 1:09 PM and make a left hand turn that you would be driving in front of a guy who would be impatient with you driving the speed limit so would decide to pass you and drive recklessly, causing a car accident with injuries. Would you

A: Decide to wait and leave at 1:10 so that the guy already drove past.

B: Figure it is "his choice" and you don't want to infringe on his free will, so you leave and 1:09 and allow the accident to happen.

If you choose B, do you believe that you bear any responsibility for the accident since you knew it would happen and actively chose not to prevent it? 

You have never traveled to a third world country have you? They don't really have the option of hopping on a plane and moving. Very few people ever even travel outside of whatever village they were born in. They are severely limited in their access to technology and their poverty. They don't choose their government. The government consists of people with guns who use force, threats of death and control of the food supply to control people. Revolution is not an option, they are unarmed with no realistic means of changing that. They survive by avoiding the negative attentions of warlords and going about their lives trying to scrape together enough money to get food for the next few days. Then when we sit here in America and send our bombs over into their backyard because we decide we don't like their warlord, it is their fault?!?

The reality is that even the people who plant IED's, the most prevalent way for our soldiers to be killed, are not evil terrorists. They are young men who were unfortunate enough to be born in a war ravaged country and they are given the choice of killing some foreign soldier and getting a bunch of cash, or allowing their family to starve to death. I don't blame them one bit and when I was a soldier, I was quite aware that the person I might someday kill would be no more evil than myself. Just some 16-20 something kid that happened to be born in a different country. To pretend that somehow they are "bad guys" who brought this shit onto themselves is delusional. They had absolutely no control over what happened.

We were the ones who made the decision that there were certain people so bad and dangerous to us that it is worth the collateral damage to get to them. We made that decision, not the villagers. As such, we are the ones responsible for the resulting damage. Me and you can argue about whether or not the benefit we gain is worth the damage we cause, but it is despicable to deny responsibility for the damage we cause when we decide to go to war, fully knowing how much damage we will cause with that decision.

Fortunately, there are many Americans who realize this and try to do what they can to repair and make up for it. Nothing can make up for the loss of an innocent loved one, but at least we can try to make the lives of those who survive a little better. As Americans who are spending our tax money on the bombs and bullets that are ruining the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, I think we have a moral obligation to do what we can to repair the damage. Consider donating.

http://www.refugeesinternational.org/

Every human in the world? Even the ones that never heard of a monotheistic god and thought the sun was god? And let us not forget about the animals. I am not against killing animals, but I find it quite disturbing to drown entire populations.  

They knew it was a possibility. Any time there is a large gathering of people there is a risk of a terrorist attack. We know that, and that is why we spend so much money on homeland security in an attempt to neutralize those threats and catch them before they happen. 

I have news for you. Everyone in the world was not able to see Noah's arc. They didn't have twitter in those days. People a mere 1,000 miles away would have had no way of knowing.   

Lol, you accuse me of not knowing much about history and the next two sentences pose absolutely false statements. Obviously the term atheism didn't exist because our language didn't exist, but several of the Pygmy tribes in Africa had no types of religious beliefs. Many of the Eastern religions also have a lack of deities. Also, there is significant evidence that in many polytheistic traditions that many people did not have a literal belief in the gods and the stories of gods were used more as parables or fables with lessons rather than an active belief in the characters. 

Mono-theism was extremely rare, limited to the Middle East and one tribe in Africa. Most religions tended to be polytheistic with gods based on various phenomena based in nature. So in reference to the discussion, they could not have had a warning from the monotheistic Abrahamic god that they had never heard or thought of. Monotheism was not present in anywhere near the majority of the human population and since you are requiring not just basic monotheism, but belief in a specific god, the number of people who had even heard of him was quite small. It is mostly due to the successful imperialism, colonialism and evangelism of Christian and Muslim countries that most people in the world have at least a passing acquaintance with the Abrahamic god.

I wouldn't put my dog in the care of someone who was likely to "judge" him and kill him. But I think even judges are responsible for their decisions, and when they judge that someone should be killed, they are responsible for that death. If that death is an obviously innocent person, the judge is just as guilty as any murderer.

And don't you think that not punishing innocents is a better way to run things? Why didn't God make that suggestion in his book? He could have saved us thousands of years of injustice simply by making a suggestion.

If saying that it what makes you sleep at night. I don't support killing the children of even really bad people, it is a terrible way to run a society and is not just. 

If saying that it what makes you sleep at night. I don't support killing the children of even really bad people, it is a terrible way to run a society 

Like I said, I get conflicting stories from all sorts of Christians, all of whom claim they know the Truth. The only thing they all seem to agree on is that Hell is extremely unpleasant and once there you stay there for eternity. 

They are dead and already sent to wherever they go. Now I am the one who has to make the choice. Either I am reborn and saved and perhaps get to spend eternity with my brother. Or I continue along my current path and hang with Grandma. I can't be with both, because God has set up a system where people are separated for eternity. From my understanding, I don't even have the option upon dying to go "oh shit, there are pearly gates" and apologize. 

??????? One state has the death penalty, which it hasn't used in forever and has ONE person on death row happens to have a low murder rate and you think that is evidence that death penalties are an effective deterrent??? Look at the states which have death penalties that they actually use on a regular basis and they tend to have higher than average murder rates. California, Texas, Florida. Look at the countries which have a death penalty compared to countries which don't and the difference is even more stark. Granted, there is a lot more that goes into a murder rate than just the penalty, but the amount of evidence against the death penalty being an effective deterrent is overwhelming. 

Who gives us authority to make any of the decisions we make? No one. We give up the authority to make certain decisions to be accepted into society. Authority is only a coherent concept in a human social structure. Outside of a human social structure it means nothing. 

If I believed that risking my eternal salvation would ensure a much better eternity for someone I cared about I would do it. I would think that doing so would be one of the most loving and self sacrificing acts a human could make. Then the question is whether a loving god would send someone to hell for a loving and selfless act. I don't think so because after all, this is the same god that created a convoluted scheme of sacrificing his son in a gruesome manner for the salvation of humanity. It would be hypocritical of him to punish me for sacrificing my salvation for the sake of the salvation of someone else.

For the second part, my scenario assumed that you had some knowledge of the girl and that she was most likely a person who would go to heaven. If you know nothing of her, than the act would be a greater risk.

Now you are trying to have it both ways. Either God gives us free will, which means that whether I am there with the opportunity to save her or not is sheer luck. Or I do not have free will and God somehow influenced me to assure that I am there to have that choice. Which is it?

And if God takes such a large role in influencing people to be in the right place to prevent accidents like being hit by a bus, why doesn't he take a larger role in influencing people like me to be saved? Like for example, providing a little bit of empirical evidence for his existence? 

I don't want anyone to give me everything that I need. I simply can't understand people who would desire that, nor those who live with their parents their entire lives. At one point in my life I had to choose between living with my parents or being homeless for a few months. I chose being homeless. If Hell is like being homeless, than it isn't as bad as Christians have led me to believe. I could be perfectly happy hanging with my friends on a street, even if it is cold. 

Now the whole living for eternity thing is a problem, regardless of whether it is in heaver or hell. Would you really want to live for eternity? Think about it. 

God hasn't shown me anything. I just have your word for it. I once participated in a prayer circle with a bunch of Mormons who prayed that God would give me evidence of his existence. I was very sincere and I assume the others were too. Maybe god doesn't like Mormons, because it hasn't worked yet.

Do you think it is healthy for a child to blindly trust their parents? I don't.

So your view of Hell is that it is simply separation from god? No hellfire, brimstone, pain, eternal torture etc? What makes it so unpleasant then? 

I'd imagine it is religious people's fault for pushing too hard the other way. If there'd been ten more ladies like the one I described in my previous post I don't know if I might have snapped.

Studying scripture doesn't make it any less interpretable. Interpretation through study is how we end up with a thousand denominations of christianity.

Ok then god is pure evil for job and the flood and a thousand other crimes against humanity, and you are approaching pure evil by following him.

There's more than 5 senses you know. Balance, gravity, pressure, and probably a whole bunch of stuff I'm not thinking of. But yeah, we definitely disagree.

And my point is that all evidence points to consciousness as a purely physical process.

Well it isn't square 1. It took thousands of years to even see the discrepancy.

I don't know. It was a long time ago.
To have a relationship, he must talk to me. That's the only option. It's one thing to get me to believe. But to believe AND love, there'd need to be some explanations. I'm not going to take the words of men as if they were god.

No, to follow God you just have to trust Him.  If he's asking you to do something, you have to trust that there is a greater good reason for it.  Please consider the times when making comments like that.  During that time, it was not uncommon for a god to ask for human sacrifices and so to test Abraham, our God asked him to do the very thing that was common among other followings to see if He was actually faithful to Him.  Followers of this God are quite different and are more family oriented, so to take such a leap as to follow through with something so drastic would show the utmost faith and trust that there was a reason bigger than their family for it.  As you can read, it never happened and God never asked anyone else for such a sacrifice.  before or after.  If Abraham wasn't worthy to be the father of the great nation of Israel, He could have walked away at any time.  

Consdering your tortured comment.  God knows it will be the opposition of his rule that will attack his followers in such a way.  The ministry is and has always been the faithfulness of His followers vs. other followers of other gods.  Time and time again, people get up and leave one god or gods for others.  YHWH's followers are faithful to Him alone and others don't like that.  Therefore, he warns us that we will be tortured for our faith and to be prepared for it.  He also reminds us that it is witness to Him to endure until the end without counter.  

Yes, there are stories of those who were saved through seeing the strength and faithfulness YHWH's followers have.  

sure, but I've been through this conversation with others before... and it's a fail.  See even if God provided physical evidence, how would you know it was from God?  Would you not deduce that other causes brought that physical thing to you?  e.g. an acorn falls on your head in the middle of a field with no trees around you for at least 1 mile in any direction.  Was it God?  The non-believer would consider any number of things but not once consider God to be the cause... e.g.

a bird likely picked up the acorn and dropped it in the air... 

high level winds knocked it off a high point on the tree and updrafts held it in the air until it reached me and fell

if an airplane happen to be flying overhead, someone tossed it out the window.  

any one of those could have happened... How do we know it wasn't God that caused it to happen in that way?  

Again, God doesn't want you to just believe, he wants you to build a relationship with him.  Will him giving you something physical build a relationship?  

Consider Bruce Almighty the movie.  I liked the part where Jim's character was praying for a sign from God and each time he asked, roadsigns popped up with a specific message predicting trouble ahead on the road.  Be it that he was on the road, He never considered the signs he was seeing as a "sign" from God... there were many more logical reasons why those signs were there.  I do believe God actually works in those ways and unless you know what you're asking for, you will never see it.  

to make it short, there are signs of God all around you.  You just dont' know what you're looking for.  Not even believers are always aware of them.  Typically we see them in hind sight.  

I wasn't using Hollywood as a basis for evidence, I only asked why they leaned toward making demons evil.  Pretty much all of historical stories about demons portray them as evil.  Simply put

Considering the insult and rammifications of what that would do to the family who lost, I definitely think there should be something more than nothing done about it.  There is no greater insult to their ultimate sacrifice.  Considering comparing that to murderers and rapists, let's put it this way, is it worse to burn the flag in front of a soldiers funeral or to open someone elses mail? I bet the family would think they should be punished as severely.  Me?  I dont' know.  Understanding the symbolism of the flag and what the intentions of that person would be to intentinoally burn it at a soldiers funeral..  I wouldn't be totally against such rammifications.  

I never said He didn't want us to question Him, but you making conclusions, not asking questions.  I do think we should question the motives and actions of a being no matter how powerful.  Does that mean we have the ability to decide the answer for them?

I support forgiveness through Jesus Christ.  I do understand a punishment similar to punishments for murder would be appropriate  Spiritually speaking because you are violating a covenant.  It is a dishonor to your spouse to cheat on them.  If you're trying to compare it to Earthly standards in today's time in America, no, it would not fit the bill.  

9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.  12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;     (Romans 2:9-12)

I take this as saying you are judged according to what you know in your heart.  Verses further on confirm that undrestanding.  If you lived and have done wrong and have not followed the Law, you will be judged according to the Laws you live under.    

If you don't know Christ and don't follow Him, You're likely going to be found guilty of breaking quite a few laws in your lifetime.  No one's perfect.  

Only by taking choice away.  Also, you're faling to consider that innocence has not been under Gods wrath.  If innocent infants died (because I know that's where you'er going to go) that blood is on the hands of those who allowed such an action to come upon them.  they had the power to be safe from it if they chose.  

You're assuming God didn't do that.  Again, I don't know what the alternatives could have been, but one assumption is that God would have to purge the population every so many generations if he hadn't done it the way He did... doesn't that constitute more suffering than just one big purge and starting from scratch?  

I've been to Ecuador and that's not what I was saying... you don't need a plane to travel to the woods.  NO, they don't get to choose their government, but they typically do have places to go.  

Very few people ever even travel outside of whatever village they were born in. They are severely limited in their access to technology and their poverty. They don't choose their government. The government consists of people with guns who use force, threats of death and control of the food supply to control people. Revolution is not an option, they are unarmed with no realistic means of changing that. They survive by avoiding the negative attentions of warlords and going about their lives trying to scrape together enough money to get food for the next few days. Then when we sit here in America and send our bombs over into their backyard because we decide we don't like their warlord, it is their fault?!?

10 more?? you have more patience than i

...and so far (I've done a lot of homework here) I have found branches of Christianity that separate themselves from other branches separate themselves either because they have another book they follow besides the bible, or due to disagreements about insignificant issues that have little or nothing to do with the core understanding and belief system.... either that or they're so extreme that they've been rejected by other branches of Christianity.  

except that evil is defined as that which is not of God.. so it would have to be the other way around.

point taken.

except that we can mimic it in unconscious items.  I believe we see evidence pointing to a purely physical process because all we understand is purely physical.  

I thought you were referring to Earth specifically.  I agree with you in understanding the vastness of the Universe. 

but they knew they'd die if they ate it... and with that explanation, they must have known that death was something not to be desired.

well here, if you read Genesis, the punishment was to have to work to live, then to die... not eternal punishment... 

(lyrics)  re:: Jerusalem, The prophets call out your name, .. but they call out in vain..

(our hearts are all drawn to one place)

Re:: Opps I meant to use the word coalitions

Opps cannot edit now the word I meant to use was "coalitions" with the divine Council.

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That was very nice of you with the book recommendation.

I have been meaning to read anything about Heyerdahl's sail across the Pacific, on the raft (used by Thor Heyerdahl). He constructed this ocean going raft, after he was to have studied the polynesians. His voyage on the Kon-Tik (keyword:: Kon-Tik) remains interesting enough, on finding out about his experimental archaelogy. It seems to contain all the romance of Hemingway.
Book on the tribe. Thanks. Happily. I definitely have to check that out, so will definitely head over to Amazon(com)
Cool
Speaking of books . . .
I remember, I have come across provocative perspectives in the interviews of popular authors. Ones who make comparisons between various 'Hells' (not that I've read every last one).

After the Intertestamental period, nothing remains the same about the Devil (well the evil maybe). Especially in the shaping and crafting of the (particularly) expanded role(s) of Satan. I dont always know what to make of Satan (in the Bible), with Ha-Satan taking on the role of prosecuting Attorney of the God's child. By no means am I ever suggesting Satan would be the Judge. That said, Imagine allowing the appointment to the post being granted to apparently the worst arch criminal (in history)!! Legacy issues are unacknowledged.

p.s. --

_____

They will be the final vestige of christianity. Their funding may seem to mean nothing to you, but money still matters in theology. They are spreading their word faster and more efficiently than you are spreading yours. That is a strategy for success.

But not me anymore than my kids, if I had some, are me. Take away my interest in science and science fiction and you gut a good 40% of who I am in one stroke, with one smack to the head. My entire social circle would collapse. I'd be dead, and some clone with a few common memories would replace me.

I would argue our seeing it mimic'd is further evidence of physicality. Processes and shapes that work tend to propagate, even if function changes.

We also can't prove the consciousness of anything we can't communicate with. This sounds ridiculous, but the truth is we can't prove that Jello isn't conscious. Or slightly less ridiculous; plants in general.

They literally could not. How do you decide death is undesirable when you don't have the context of good and bad? Nothing is bad or good, it just is. And death couldn't have been all that undesirable when it just leads to another life closer to the creator.

I would say that anyone who is willing to murder their own child is not worthy of leading any nation.

I was thinking something a little more extreme than an acorn. He is omnipotent, it doesn't have to be some kind of Davinci Code sign that has to be interpreted. He could simply come on down, assume some form that he thinks is good and say, "Hi all, I am God, haven't been around for awhile, watch me grow this amputees arm."   

How can I have a relationship with a being that is hiding and apparently is only willing to speak through complex codes that can only be recognized in hindsight? If he really wanted to talk, he could call me on the phone, or better yet, have a seat at the bar and we can have a drink together.

Why is he so secretive? It is almost like he is trying to make me not believe in him. If he really wanted all of us in heaven with him, don't you think he would approach us in a more direct way?

If I don't know what I am looking for, whose fault is that? If I am sending a secret signal to someone, I am going to make sure they know the signal beforehand. 

That is scary. 

Well since I have to choose whether or not to become a follower, sooner or later I have to come to a conclusion of whether or not he is a moral being. I don't want to follow someone who is immoral. Since the only source I have to rely on is the Bible and my knowledge of the world, I think the conclusion that if such a being exists it does not share my morality is obvious. Would you follow a being that didn't share your morality? At least what you consider the important parts of your morality? 

Note to self: Don't vote for Caposkia for President. 

It is well established that I break quite a few laws on a regular basis no matter which religion you are talking about. I probably still would even if I could be convinced that God existed. Not really a fan of religious laws.

And God also had the power not to kill them. Perhaps the parent bear some responsibility, but that doesn't take away from God making the choice to kill them. God isn't some tool that doesn't have a choice, he is omnipotent so he has infinite options. He chose an option that included killing babies. 

Or he could have left the human population alone to suffer or thrive on their own and gone to make another planet. Since he liked Noah so much, he could have brought Noah to the new planet. Just one possibility this mere mortal can come up with. I'm sure an omnipotent being could come up with more.

Where? We bombed all over the country. When our military moves in, you can't just come and go. People wandering around in rural areas are suspicious and liable to be shot. And when they get to wherever they go to hide, how do they survive? And that is assuming they even have some idea of where a safe place is. It isn't like these people knew who we were after and where those people were located. We send in a special ops group, finds the people we are looking for and then calls in an airstrike which takes them out and everyone around them. Some of our attacks went places where there were no bad guys. Just some group of civilians that had the misfortune of being misidentified.    

The United States brought it there. 

Exactly what does the average civilian in Afghanistan do to stop the US military? What do they do to prevent terrorists from setting up a camp near their village? They are unarmed, poor and uneducated people. If you think they have a "choice" you really need to evaluate your concept of choice. They have no realistic options. 

And my point is that this terrible choice, with no good answer, that they must make is the same type of choice foisted upon people by your god. It is our fault that those poor people have to make such terrible choices.

What year (approximately) do you think the flood happened? A google search shows me that the earliest anyone places it is 6,000 BC, or roughly 7-10,000 years after humans migrated to North America. (See Dana's handy migration map above)

Several tribal societies that have been isolated don't have any concept of god(s). They may believe in various woo things such as spirits, but don't worship them in the classical sense of religious worship. It becomes difficult when you are trying to determine the beliefs of people who died 15-20,000 years ago, but many finds have a distinct lack of potentially religious idols. I suppose they could have all been destroyed by time. Yet we find that when we encounter groups of people that have been isolated from the rest of humanity for thousands of years, they don't have any kind of monotheistic belief and sometimes, no religion. 

http://archive.org/stream/jstor-3025216/3025216_djvu.txt

Well God should have designed humans better in the first place so they didn't become corrupt and violent. Obviously, his solution didn't work either as humans are still corrupt and violent. 

Good. I would hate to live in a society where we punished adultery as stiffly as we punish murder.

That is the difference between me and you. There is absolutely no situation where killing a baby is justified. Ever.  

I'm looking for empirical evidence. It isn't a secret. You know it and if there is a god, he knows it. Since he is omnipotent, he can provide it. Since it has not been provided, I can only assume that he doesn't want me in heaven.  

Forever is a really long time. Anything gets boring after a few thousand years. 

It is just Christianity +1 prophet. I doubt it will happen. But yes, I am sincere. I would absolutely love to have a discussion about morality with god. 

To let yourself die so that another can live woudl then be causing harm to yourself.... a justified world cannot exist at this point in time without harm to something or someone.  Otherwise, there would have to be no crime.  or any crime would have to be deemed good and unpunishable.  

that's basically my point.. Our ability to observe consciousness is so limited that we really can't define its limits.  

If they didn't have a concept of death, Satan would not have tried to convince them that they would not die if they ate it.  Whatever they knew, it was implied that they understood death.  

Also, they were already with God in the garden... God "walked around in the garden"  therefore, to die would not get them closer to Him.  Only further away.  

Of course you would, that kind of behavior is not common and definitely frowned upon in our culture today.  A sacrifice is not considered murder because people clearly understood that though they're your children, the god created them and is their true parent... they also would take care of them in the afterlife.  I'm obviously speaking in general about all deities, not specifically judeo-Christian here.

He did that already.  His name was Jesus Christ.... and if you read the Bible, you'll find that people still didn't believe.  How many times would God have to do that do you think?

He only hidden from those who don't follow Him, but is very visible to those who do.... and where 2 or more are gathered, He is there.  I can't explain why He works with you the way He does, but I do understand that it is probably the best way He should communicate with you at this time.

He did with Jesus.  He's not being secretive, but He does want you to make an effort too.  

If you know scripture, you know what to look for.  In other words, you have the resources to figure out the code

what's scary is why a person would do such a thing in the first place.

likely not, and also a being wouldn't want you to follow them if your morals weren't in line... but where are the morals and what is immoral.  You're looking at the morals of a judge as if any negative judgement is immoral.  

or laws in general?

Do you know the rammifications of such a decision?  We're sitting here second guessing a choice an omnipotent being made.  In other words, how do you know He didn't consider that alternative, then foresee that it would have been a terrible choice?

...and therein lies the problem.  Human error.

or that... either way, again, humans are to blame.

we can only guess with the information available to us.  I'm guessing it's further back than what our fossil records show, be it that life was understood to be a bit longer then as well.

God designed humans perfectly, with one flaw... he decided to NOT make us robots.  Choice is and was the downfall of humanity.   Why blame God for what we chose to do?

I agree, yet people did it to God all the time.  In fact, are you suggesting those people who died did not kill babies themselves, you probably should recheck your understanding of exactly what those people must have been like.  All children are gods, not ours, yet we seem to think we have the right to decide for them.

Has he not provided it or have you not been looking for it?  If you have been looking for it, are you looking for something logical based on scripture or are you looking for a pile of $$ at your doorstep.

how do you know?  You've lived that long?

If that's true, in my understanding, you will have it.  Though it might be through His followers, which is typically how He speaks as you can see from scripture.   

DP (Double post)

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. In fact your religion even celebrates such sacrifice as the ultimate good, exemplified by jesus sacrificing himself for all.

McDonalds is renowned worldwide. Only uncontacted tribes in South America could be expected to not know McDonalds. It has never shown signs of failing.

To which I say we should study it to the best of our ability, and not to take the words of men 2000 years ago, who knew even less than we do, as if they were fact.

Understanding death doesn't mean you have a view on whether it is good or bad. If you don't know good and bad, then death is just another thing. Neither to be feared nor embraced. It just is.
Only with the capacity to judge good and bad can one say death is good or bad.

So adam and eve are in hell?

 When we can say,  " I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. I am not in him and he has no hold over me."

re :: Teaching of the Equity parable (you get yours in the end) . .
 

   Most modern scholars have a large beef and complaint with the Pauline epistles found in the New Testament,. The Canonical Gospels are often less of a problem; however they would like to gut the narrative completely and "de-mythologize" the Biblical Gospels. This is not private but in interviews they each have said as much.  Which both leads me to believe and it is pretty safe to assume they would privately want to scrub or throw-out most of the lesser Pauline works entirely, given the chance. This might present a problem :~  In so doing somewhat missing the value of these friendships and the encouragement to fledgling churches Paul gave. And forever missing the development of thought found in the New Testament. That said, most modern scholars have even more issues with the Pentateuch which means “five books" especially the first few chapters in the OT, in the Garden.  Beyond the mere concepts of human nature; Modernity could at least know the reference (not too much to ask). This would go miswanting, to indulge the their insane butcherings, in a word not the best idea, IMO. I can understand the whole wanting to toss out myth but then what would I do with my time ,hehe (Joke/Joking). No, We walk not according to the flesh, thank you Paul. Paul's working out things w/ Weaker Brethren wouldn't find a home with Scholarship, so how could I find a home with them ?  Likewise, it would leave us in the  dark. More speculating would occur to what end ? Therefore, I am not in favor of insane Scholarship's not so secret desires with pulling out a giant meat-ax and start where we have no clue as to what the original intent was (we live in modern times). Textual issues are solved in having other things to compare against.  Scholars like most are lazy, if you keep at it you can solve all sorts of issues, but you have to be willing to make an effort to go in the direction the evidence is leading.

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{March 5th  danatemporary wrote}:

  Important:

  (?) The Divine jurisprudence (begin with the Angels) . .

      An all important area to mention is unlocking the angels' original sin (if you will). While not failing to mention the particular religious culture of the time. A modern audience cannot estimate or appreciate how much each of these documents need to be looked at in the setting in which these documents were (originally) written. Now that is of some importance. To better find a way of understanding. I asked about Satan (and comments about the NDE), these expanded roles found later on in the writings that later became the Canon. (Btw, I'd hoped for some feedback on but I appreciate you are busy)  Importantly! Isnt there an aspect of human damnation being hopelessly intertwined with the fate of the angels ?  It shouldn't be glossed over, though I may be overstating it, only slightly, two things: One they each are headed South. And Second, the place was set up in the first place as a solution for the rebel angelic hordes, many instances were cited, according to the Bible. It seems to indicate man's fall brought about the damning to the souls ( how dreadful ). Matthew 25:41 - “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.  Book of Hebrews 12:17 -  [Speaking of Esau] For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears,. And a passage I quoted in this Thread,. Conversely the very angels are interested in the matters of redemption. Who if any of the groupings of angels would need redemption? Obviously, the Unclean and Fallen angels are the only answer that makes any sense, according to the text. I do not think Rome's interpretation of a few key passages is right on both a previous verse I cited earlier and also the reference of so 'great a cloud of witnesses". The only game in town, at one time, wouldnt mean they (RCC) were always correct about things. Those fallen angels were looking into these matters, even though it's not explict nor unequivocal. This is what the New Testament writers were communicating about the angels. The case is strong, very strong, all-the-same for such this view. This is consistent with their plight, and the fate that the Fallen Angels made for themselves by being in rebellion against the Almighty, again, according to the holy bible ( and NO need for any concordance to find it :~),. I'd appreciate if you'd help in our understanding (many words in a reply this time). On how this ties into mankind according to the tradition ? 

In the image the she is a high-class hooker, that is the "she'' (perpetually snake bitten in a few ways).

  The summary doesnt do the actual text any justice. It is comic how the Hindu Hooker's soul is fought over which the better part of the details were omitted. Her soul has the attendants  of Lord Yama and the heavenly angels, if you will, both claiming her.  They have to have Hari and Yama to step in themselves to settle the matter. Before that the attendants get into an argument. It's sort of a loud funny exchange of: No!! She's coming with us!!  :~  It popped into my head is all.

Gospel of Luke 

:²⁰ But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, ²¹ desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. ²² So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. ²³ And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.²⁴ “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ ²⁵ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. ²⁶ And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ ²⁷ “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, ²⁸ for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ ²⁹ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ ³⁰ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ ³¹ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

 p.s. -- Noticed you skipped over the NDE, WOULD APPRECIATE your feedback on that, when you can.

  __________

 Anime classic  The Anti-hero Spike once said: I'm just watching a bad dream I never wake up from