School shooting CT, early reports 26 dead.

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School shooting CT, early reports 26 dead.

Breaking news. How many events like this have to happen before gun control is taken seriously? 18 grade schoolers and 8 adults.

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Yeah, we should pass a law

Yeah, we should pass a law banning all guns within 1000 feet of school grounds because that will stop these psychos...

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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I saw that

Horrific.  The Oregon mall shooting was bad - this is horrific. 

They are not sure they have accounted for everyone yet. 

 

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cj wrote:Horrific.  The

cj wrote:

Horrific.  The Oregon mall shooting was bad - this is horrific. 

They are not sure they have accounted for everyone yet. 

 

Agreed. It appears that most news reports are saying that the gunman was a young adult (20) with "ties" to the school whatever that means. And is apparently dead, not clear on whether he shot himself, was shot by the police or what. It will probably be some time before we know what really happened. I wish these kinds of assholes would just stay home and shoot themselves in the head first.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Yeah, we

Beyond Saving wrote:

Yeah, we should pass a law banning all guns within 1000 feet of school grounds because that will stop these psychos...

I detect sarcasm here. But you have to understand that the lack of gun control in the USA does set it apart specifically from other first world countries, and there is a disproportionate amount of gun violence occurring there. Until somebody identifies something else that may potentially be a major factor, implementing gun control is a very, VERY good idea. I agree that it won't solve everything overnight, but how can you possibly say that it is not a major factor? What's your solution?

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Jabberwocky wrote:Beyond

Jabberwocky wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Yeah, we should pass a law banning all guns within 1000 feet of school grounds because that will stop these psychos...

I detect sarcasm here. But you have to understand that the lack of gun control in the USA does set it apart specifically from other first world countries, and there is a disproportionate amount of gun violence occurring there. Until somebody identifies something else that may potentially be a major factor, implementing gun control is a very, VERY good idea. I agree that it won't solve everything overnight, but how can you possibly say that it is not a major factor? What's your solution?

Yeah, because we already have that law. My solution? I don't think there is a good one. The fact is that you can't make the world a perfect place and often times your attempts to do so will make things worse. People will do shitty things and sometimes there isn't jack shit you can do to prevent it (at least nothing reasonable). 

And comparing the US to most other countries is often misleading. Yes we have a rather high murder rate compared to most developed countries, however, our "high" murder rate is mostly confined to a handful of cities that have large amounts of gang activity.

Most of our country has murder rates that are comparable to other countries, while ironically, the areas with the highest murder rates tend to have much higher levels of gun control than the areas that have little to none. The pro-gun movements often point this out and try to correlate the decline in the murder rate to less gun control. I suspect that gun control actually plays a very minimal role in murder rate and other factors such as population density, gang/drug activity and poverty play a much larger role.  

For example, in Connecticut where this shooting took place they have extremely strict gun laws on "assault" weapons and a permit is required to purchase a handgun. We don't know yet whether the murderer had a permit or obtained the guns illegally. Early reports suggest he had a Bushmaster rifle which depending on the model very well might have fallen under Connecticut's definition of an "assault weapon" and he had a Sig and a Glock which I assume were handguns since most of the guns made by those brands are handguns. Which means he needed a permit to get them. Obviously, the permit didn't help and odds are that this asshole didn't have a concealed carry permit (unfortunately, neither did any of the teachers) 

According to the Brady Campaign for gun control, Connecticut is one of the top four states in the country with their gun control laws http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/scorecard/CT/ 

So exactly what kind of gun control should we have? Because obviously what the gun control lobby suggests doesn't stop this type of thing since they got most of what they wanted and this tragedy still happened. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 Reading a little more

 Reading a little more about the shooting it appears that right now they believe the guns were owned by his parents and the shooter was 20 years old and perhaps autistic. Obviously, children or people with mental illnesses getting a hold of guns is a problem, and no amount of gun regulation short of an outright ban on all guns would have prevented this because it appears the parents were perfectly law abiding citizens. So I have a proposal that can solve two liberal problems at once.

We can call it the "Gun Safe Stimulus Plan" and the government can provide a free gun safe to all gunowners to lock up their guns and prevent anyone unauthorized from getting their hands on them. Not only will it protect the children but it will also stimulate the economy (at least according to the keynesians) because it appears that in this particular situation that is where the problem was. The teacher probably couldn't afford a $2000-$4000 safe on government salary. 

Besides, my safe is starting to get crowded and I need a new one. I'm sure that is a gun control plan even Prozac will get behind.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:Breaking news.

Brian37 wrote:

Breaking news. How many events like this have to happen before gun control is taken seriously? 18 grade schoolers and 8 adults.

Like Norway and Mexico? Are you volunteering to help take away all guns out there?

Actually more like legalize pot and prostitution would be a better answer. You don't see too many stoners or guy that get laid a lot doing this kind of stuff.

 

 

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Beyond Saving wrote:Besides,

Beyond Saving wrote:

Besides, my safe is starting to get crowded and I need a new one. I'm sure that is a gun control plan even Prozac will get behind.

    You appear to have an enviable collection.  

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Beyond

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Besides, my safe is starting to get crowded and I need a new one. I'm sure that is a gun control plan even Prozac will get behind.

    You appear to have an enviable collection.  

Unfortunately not mine. Mine is about half that size, but that is the safe I want so I can fill it up. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:Breaking news.

Brian37 wrote:

Breaking news. How many events like this have to happen before gun control is taken seriously?

 

  26 innocent lives taken for no good reason is a disgusting statistic, indeed.   What do you consider "serious" gun control ?  

 

 

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Breaking news. How many events like this have to happen before gun control is taken seriously?

 

  26 innocent lives taken for no good reason is a disgusting statistic, indeed.   What do you consider "serious" gun control ?  

 

 

 

Certainly we should allow the continued sale of guns to anyone who wants one. Who needs vetting of CIA agents, or SWAT team members or cops. Lets just sell cigarettes and porn to 5 year olds.

 

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  ....okay, anyone else

  ....okay, anyone else have a serious reply ?


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Brian37 wrote:Certainly we

Brian37 wrote:

Certainly we should allow the continued sale of guns to anyone who wants one. Who needs vetting of CIA agents, or SWAT team members or cops. Lets just sell cigarettes and porn to 5 year olds.

The guns were apparently sold to a middle aged kindergarten teacher. Should we ban all gun sales? Or do you have some idea in mind that would have stopped these particular guns from being purchased?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Besides, my safe is starting to get crowded and I need a new one. I'm sure that is a gun control plan even Prozac will get behind.

    You appear to have an enviable collection.  

Unfortunately not mine. Mine is about half that size, but that is the safe I want so I can fill it up. 

Yep because testosterone proves that you will live forever. Funny how the sun and the earth wont., but somehow if you just flex your "importance" you'll be ok.

FUCK YOUR STUPID GUNS AND YOUR "MANLYHOOD". It is bullshit and wont prevent any human from dying.

 

 

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Beyond Saving wrote: The

Beyond Saving wrote:

 The fact is that you can't make the world a perfect place and often times your attempts to do so will make things worse. People will do shitty things and sometimes there isn't jack shit you can do to prevent it (at least nothing reasonable). 

 

          This school attack happened in China today. 22 children and one adult stabbed by a deranged person.   www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/-pacific/2012/12/2012121481220620325.html

 

      

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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Brian37 wrote:Beyond Saving

Brian37 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Besides, my safe is starting to get crowded and I need a new one. I'm sure that is a gun control plan even Prozac will get behind.

    You appear to have an enviable collection.  

Unfortunately not mine. Mine is about half that size, but that is the safe I want so I can fill it up. 

Yep because testosterone proves that you will live forever. Funny how the sun and the earth wont., but somehow if you just flex your "importance" you'll be ok.

FUCK YOUR STUPID GUNS AND YOUR "MANLYHOOD". It is bullshit and wont prevent any human from dying.

 

 

None of my guns have ever killed a human, or even shot at one. Most of my guns do the fine service of putting food on my table (and the tables of a few others) which doesn't make you live forever, but food does tend to extend human life a little while. A few admittedly are just toys for fun when I get in the mood to have a gunpowder high. And if I ever have to use my Sig it will prevent a human from dying- one of the most important humans, me- I really hope I never have to use it outside the range.  

Now can you explain exactly what regulation would have prevented the tragedy today? Or do you now support banning all guns? Because I remember in the past you were quite emphatic that you do not support a total ban. So far the only suggestion I've seen that might have prevented today is from me. If they had a safe at home perhaps the autistic kid could not have stolen the guns.

I agree that gun owners should be held responsible for the security of their weapons and would not be opposed to holding people liable for at least a civil negligence suit if they do not take reasonable steps to secure them and their gun is used in such a crime.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Beyond

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 The fact is that you can't make the world a perfect place and often times your attempts to do so will make things worse. People will do shitty things and sometimes there isn't jack shit you can do to prevent it (at least nothing reasonable). 

 

          This school attack happened in China today. 22 children and one adult stabbed by a deranged person.   www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/-pacific/2012/12/2012121481220620325.html

 

      

Obviously we need knife control regulations. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:  I

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

 

I agree that gun owners should be held responsible for the security of their weapons and would not be opposed to holding people liable for at least a civil negligence suit if they do not take reasonable steps to secure them and their gun is used in such a crime.  

 Makes perfect sense.   All of my firearms are contained within two safes.   My ammunition is also kept under lock and key.  

Patrick is an edgy edgelord.


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Gun control? Bah humbug!!

      

 

                           All this today for the greater glory of the NRA.  The National rifle association IS right 'every person SHOULd have a gun':  with no age limit!!!  Just think  if all those 6,7, and 8 year olds and their teachers had guns at the ready this nut case would have been gunned down long before he racked up 27 victoms.  Guns are needed, guns are fun just ask the NRA, guns don't kill people----people kill people----guns just aren't involved. FUCK the second amendment which has that whimpy caveat about a "well regulated Militia....."   The militia wasn't there,  the students and teachers were,  they need guns,  guns,  guns. Any 5 year old with a magnum .45 could have stopped this tragedy  why aren't 5 year olds allowed guns just like the NRA demands  and FUCK the second amendment!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

      

 

                           All this today for the greater glory of the NRA.  The National rifle association IS right 'every person SHOULd have a gun':  with no age limit!!!  Just think  if all those 6,7, and 8 year olds and their teachers had guns at the ready this nut case would have been gunned down long before he racked up 27 victoms.  Guns are needed, guns are fun just ask the NRA, guns don't kill people----people kill people----guns just aren't involved. FUCK the second amendment which has that whimpy caveat about a "well regulated Militia....."   The militia wasn't there,  the students and teachers were,  they need guns,  guns,  guns. Any 5 year old with a magnum .45 could have stopped this tragedy  why aren't 5 year olds allowed guns just like the NRA demands  and FUCK the second amendment!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

So exactly what policy would you propose that might have had a chance of preventing this?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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I rather enjoy

 

guns. I like heavy metal things and am reasonably accurate with long guns, especially shotguns. Nevertheless, access to magazine loaders among nutjobs is a cause for concern. In Australia we had an incident in Port Arthur in Tasmania where a typical white troubled loner with a disturbingly obvious history in hindsight murdered nearly 40 people with an assault rifle. After that event the government came down on such weapons. There was licensing and more stringent laws. Tens of thousands of assault rifles were handed in. Country people can still have guns on farms but mil-spec weaponry is out. Many recreational shooters now keep their weapons at ranges rather than at home. Since that event we've not had another mass killing if flawed memory serves me right. Perhaps the answer is to ban introversion.  

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Beyond Saving wrote:Jeffrick

Beyond Saving wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:

      

 

                           All this today for the greater glory of the NRA.  The National rifle association IS right 'every person SHOULd have a gun':  with no age limit!!!  Just think  if all those 6,7, and 8 year olds and their teachers had guns at the ready this nut case would have been gunned down long before he racked up 27 victoms.  Guns are needed, guns are fun just ask the NRA, guns don't kill people----people kill people----guns just aren't involved. FUCK the second amendment which has that whimpy caveat about a "well regulated Militia....."   The militia wasn't there,  the students and teachers were,  they need guns,  guns,  guns. Any 5 year old with a magnum .45 could have stopped this tragedy  why aren't 5 year olds allowed guns just like the NRA demands  and FUCK the second amendment!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

So exactly what policy would you propose that might have had a chance of preventing this?

 

 

                  I told you  FUCK the 2nd amendment and give guns to everyone Regardless of age.  I  have never been called a liberal, has anything I have ever written on this site labaled me a LIBERAL.  Hell no !!!  Hand guns are made for one reason only  KILL HUMANS they have no other purpose,  rifles & shotguns put meat on the table, handguns kill people that's all they are made for.  Go ask the NRA,  GUNS for everyone!!! Fuck rationality, fuck humanity,  stand by your RIGHT  to gun down your wife at 1:33 AM on George Washingtons birthday in front of  your 7  children.  The NRA  will defend to the death your right to do it.   GUNS for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

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VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:Beyond

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 The fact is that you can't make the world a perfect place and often times your attempts to do so will make things worse. People will do shitty things and sometimes there isn't jack shit you can do to prevent it (at least nothing reasonable). 

 

          This school attack happened in China today. 22 children and one adult stabbed by a deranged person.   www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/-pacific/2012/12/2012121481220620325.html

 

      

 

 

                 The chinese are whimps,  their children survived!!!!  The NRA does not approve, Guns are needed, more guns for everybody and that whimp in China would have a REAL body count to brag about.  Now go shoot a neighbor or a wife for the greater glory of the NRA.  It's the AMERICAN WAY, no Chinese whimps here!!

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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Jeffrick wrote:The chinese

Jeffrick wrote:

The chinese are whimps,  their children survived!!!!  The NRA does not approve, Guns are needed, more guns for everybody and that whimp in China would have a REAL body count to brag about.  Now go shoot a neighbor or a wife for the greater glory of the NRA.  It's the AMERICAN WAY, no Chinese whimps here!!

Are these stupid posts supposed to be funny or something!!??  Because I am not definitely NOT amused.

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

children or people with mental illnesses getting a hold of guns is a problem

Shit, I've got autism AND depression; no guns for me I guess...

I mean, it's not that I would hurt anyone else; I'm just not always terribly fond of myself or of being alive...

 


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Beyond Saving wrote:So

Beyond Saving wrote:

So exactly what policy would you propose that might have had a chance of preventing this?

 

I would go for the Swiss model -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

You have a weapon issued by the army, but no ammunition at home unless it might be required en route in case of an invasion. "Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still have ammunition stored at home today."

You may purchase ammunition at shooting ranges, but you must use ALL of it at the range.

You may carry a gun if you are in a profession that requires one - such as security.

And so on.

 

Most importantly, almost every male between the ages of 20 and 30 is conscripted into the militia and undergoes weapons training.  There are few op-outs. 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj wrote:Beyond Saving

cj wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

So exactly what policy would you propose that might have had a chance of preventing this?

 

I would go for the Swiss model -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

You have a weapon issued by the army, but no ammunition at home unless it might be required en route in case of an invasion. "Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still have ammunition stored at home today."

You may purchase ammunition at shooting ranges, but you must use ALL of it at the range.

You may carry a gun if you are in a profession that requires one - such as security.

And so on.

 

Most importantly, almost every male between the ages of 20 and 30 is conscripted into the militia and undergoes weapons training.  There are few op-outs. 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zug_massacre

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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blacklight915 wrote:Shit,

blacklight915 wrote:

Shit, I've got autism AND depression; no guns for me I guess...

I mean, it's not that I would hurt anyone else; I'm just not always terribly fond of myself or of being alive...

Maybe, maybe not. The current NCIS background check may deny you depending on severity, history of being institutionalized etc. It is kind of a tough place to decide where to draw the line- I'm sure we can agree that the guy who regularly sees hallucinations or a mental disorder that expresses itself violently probably shouldn't have a gun, whereas there are many people with depression or bipolar disorders that buy guns and statistics show that they are actually less likely to commit violent acts against others than average, although they are more likely to shoot themselves which as long as they don't decide to take anyone with them I have no problem with that. (I fully support the right to suicide)

Whether autism would lead to you being declined I have no idea. The line is drawn by state laws and some states are more strict than others and I don't know enough about it to tell you whether or not autism makes the list or not or if it does in which states.

 

Although the statistics show that such background checks and waiting periods have virtually no effect on violent attacks. It does appear to reduce firearm suicide among people over 55, probably because they find another way to kill themselves while they wait. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10918704

Of course, in this case such laws were completely irrelevant because like many of these mass shooters he did not purchase the weapons himself. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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And just to keep this in

And just to keep this in perspective, over the last 10 years an average of 400 people per year are struck by lightning and an average of 40 of them die per year. You are literally more likely to get struck by lightning than to be shot in one of these types of random mass shootings. 

http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm

 

Using numbers from the Huffington Post there have been 19 mass shooting since 2007, mass shooting being defined as any shooting where more than four people are shot, 206 people died over the course of six years. That includes this most recent shooting, the VA tech shooting, Aurora etc. The shooters are often included among the dead as well. So that averages to about 34.33 people die each year in this type of shooting. 

Now I am not saying that if someone has some great idea on how to prevent these tragedies that we shouldn't consider it. I am saying that we should keep the problem in perspective. These types of things get massive amounts of media attention that is out of proportion to the actual deaths caused. Especially when compared to really dangerous things like cars. I can understand why parents might be scared for their kids, but ultimately, your kid is very safe in school and your kid is in far more danger riding while you drive them to school than they are of being shot. 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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I can't honestly say I'm

I can't honestly say I'm against guns, because I really do enjoy playing some FPS games and destroying the enemies with more guns than even BS wants to have. But in my country we have gun control and I don't remember ever hearing about school shootings in central Europe. Ever. I know of two deaths by stabbing (one by a paintbrush). But I really can't find anything about school shootings. From that point of view at least, gun control works. It restricts the violence to what's at hand, which is usually nothing. There's probably just as much violence at schools like everywhere else, but hardly anybody has a real gun. 

What are the conditions for gun permit? In my country people get regularly checked by a doctor and I think there's a psychologic evaluation too. And I'm pretty sure nobody can buy guns over the net, without personal presence. 

 

OK, the real cause of school shootings seems to be... it's all in your head. It's always the quiet ones. I'm not the only one here who has Asperger's (autism), it's a very common inborn neurologic disorder. It's about 1 person from 150-200, so there's usually a few of them (us) in every school. Perhaps a few dozen even in a small town. These are by default completely all right people, less violent than the average guy, even less likely to fight back. They love peace and quiet.

The problem with autism spectrum is, the brain is wired very differently. It's like many filters that make sense of the sensory information are gone. The world generally makes much less sense, specially all the universe of social interaction. Such people are socially blind or short-sighted. There are often problems understanding emotion in others and inwardly, and inability to show it outwardly within some mysterious social norms. Also, the warning control showing the inner pent-up emotion seems to be damaged. It might not start showing critical pressure until it's too late. 

Due to being socially short-sighted/illiterate and emotionally deaf/mute (but in many ways over-sensitive), people with HFA/AS are often bullied, more than 40% of them compared to 10% in normal population. Bullying is almost a part of diagnosis. They also have absolutely no idea what to do about it. Often no chance to do anything about it. No way to get better again. They may become ticking bombs. They feel like being imprisoned in a one-man concentration camp, with lots of Nazis around. Well, and what do we usually do with Nazis? It's a very logical question.

But still, that doesn't explain school shootings. Asperger's syndrome and bullying is so overwhelmingly frequent and yet so unnoticed, that it's more like an evidence of how peaceful and resilient we are. Otherwise every teacher would already bear arms at school. I'm pretty sure Adam Lanza had some comorbid conditions - bipolar or OCD at least, depression goes without saying. 

A possible solution would be to finally provide a proper diagnosis and care for all kids with autism spectrum disorder. The school psychologists are still not good at their job. They may still think that autism is an early childhood disease causing inability to speak and genius mathemathic skills.
Instead, they should patrol the school corridors, catch any remotely weird or asocial kid and put him through an Asperger's test and then get him a mandatory social training and make him enroll in acting class. Which is a very good way to learn social skills. 

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Luminon wrote:But in my

Luminon wrote:

But in my country we have gun control and I don't remember ever hearing about school shootings in central Europe. Ever. I know of two deaths by stabbing (one by a paintbrush). But I really can't find anything about school shootings. From that point of view at least, gun control works. It restricts the violence to what's at hand, which is usually nothing. There's probably just as much violence at schools like everywhere else, but hardly anybody has a real gun. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting

These shootings happen everywhere. (Germany happens to have very tight gun regulations even by European standards) You have to remember the US is a big country with a huge population, so saying one hasn't happened in your country in recent memory is like me saying one hasn't happened in Ohio. Plus the US gets a disproportionate amount of global news reporting so you hear about what happens here more. 

I find it interesting that doing my quick search I found an article that is completely opposing typical US coverage of this type of event http://shiftmag.eu/post/29964263117/europe-school-shootings

Quote:

The main aim should always be to prevent attacks by identifying and managing persons posing a serious threat, not just concentrating on stopping the attacker in an active-shooter situation” explained the Police Chief Inspector. “The police have a part to play in both, but we cannot solve the problem alone” Sund said. “Prevention requires a multidisciplinary and multiagency approach” he insisted.  Responsible parents, trained teachers and a multi-level engagement will ensure we don’t lose contact with young people and this seems to be the best option for preventing another tragedy.

To me, this seems like a very rational approach to the problem- you would never see this written in a US newspaper or magazine. 

 

Luminon wrote:

What are the conditions for gun permit? In my country people get regularly checked by a doctor and I think there's a psychologic evaluation too. And I'm pretty sure nobody can buy guns over the net, without personal presence. 

It varies by state. Connecticut, where this shooting happened, has a strict permitting process for handguns and none for long rifles. To purchase a handgun you have to first take a training class and pass an NCIS background check which checks for criminal history and mental health. There is a 14 day waiting period and the permit has to be renewed every five years. 

You can purchase guns over the internet but it cannot be shipped to directly to you, you have to have them shipped to a local authorized gun dealer and you have to show up in person to pick it up. 

 

Luminon wrote:

OK, the real cause of school shootings seems to be... it's all in your head. It's always the quiet ones. I'm not the only one here who has Asperger's (autism), it's a very common inborn neurologic disorder. It's about 1 person from 150-200, so there's usually a few of them (us) in every school. Perhaps a few dozen even in a small town. These are by default completely all right people, less violent than the average guy, even less likely to fight back. They love peace and quiet.

The problem with autism spectrum is, the brain is wired very differently. It's like many filters that make sense of the sensory information are gone. The world generally makes much less sense, specially all the universe of social interaction. Such people are socially blind or short-sighted. There are often problems understanding emotion in others and inwardly, and inability to show it outwardly within some mysterious social norms. Also, the warning control showing the inner pent-up emotion seems to be damaged. It might not start showing critical pressure until it's too late. 

Due to being socially short-sighted/illiterate and emotionally deaf/mute (but in many ways over-sensitive), people with HFA/AS are often bullied, more than 40% of them compared to 10% in normal population. Bullying is almost a part of diagnosis. They also have absolutely no idea what to do about it. Often no chance to do anything about it. No way to get better again. They may become ticking bombs. They feel like being imprisoned in a one-man concentration camp, with lots of Nazis around. Well, and what do we usually do with Nazis? It's a very logical question.

But still, that doesn't explain school shootings. Asperger's syndrome and bullying is so overwhelmingly frequent and yet so unnoticed, that it's more like an evidence of how peaceful and resilient we are. Otherwise every teacher would already bear arms at school. I'm pretty sure Adam Lanza had some comorbid conditions - bipolar or OCD at least, depression goes without saying. 

 

And that is the problem. In 20/20 hindsight it is easy to notice all of the "warning" signs but picking them out in advance is extremely difficult. Teenagers being anti-social, introverted, depressed or being bullied are not rare and the vast majority of teenagers that fit that description will never kill anyone and probably are far more dangerous to themselves than to anyone else. How do you pick out the ticking time bombs without being overbearing on those who are not? I don't know, and I am not convinced that anyone does. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:And just

Beyond Saving wrote:

 These types of things get massive amounts of media attention that is out of proportion to the actual deaths caused. Especially when compared to really dangerous things like cars. I can understand why parents might be scared for their kids, but ultimately, your kid is very safe in school and your kid is in far more danger riding while you drive them to school than they are of being shot. 

 

 

   And speaking of being killed in a car the Texas the Dept of Public safety has been posting annual death stats on its digital road signs to remind drivers of traffic fatalities.  In the year 2011 there were 3,015 traffic deaths in Texas.    In 2012 the number is already well above 2,700 deaths. 

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/08/21/txdot-signs-to-regularly-display-traffic-death-numbers/txdot-sign/

I see no emotional outrage over these needless highway deaths nor do I see the call for drastic measures to curtail this unsafe behavior.  Why, when contrasted with gun deaths, are these traffic statistics so uninspiring to gun control advocates ? 

 

   Why doesn't President Obama go on national television and shed his tears for the victims who die every day on our roads ?

 

Texas loses approximately 250 people every month due to traffic deaths.  If you die in an auto wreck, it apparently is no big deal yet gun deaths have certain people so upset that they cannot even put together a coherent statement.

 

  Why is there such selective outrage among  leftist politicians, media talking heads and movie actors if they're really just concerned about saving lives ?

 

 

   

            If these 26 innocent people in Connecticut had been killed in a road accident would Michael Moore or Bob Costas give a shit ?

 

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Atheistextremist wrote:

 

guns. I like heavy metal things and am reasonably accurate with long guns, especially shotguns. Nevertheless, access to magazine loaders among nutjobs is a cause for concern. In Australia we had an incident in Port Arthur in Tasmania where a typical white troubled loner with a disturbingly obvious history in hindsight murdered nearly 40 people with an assault rifle. After that event the government came down on such weapons. There was licensing and more stringent laws. Tens of thousands of assault rifles were handed in. Country people can still have guns on farms but mil-spec weaponry is out. Many recreational shooters now keep their weapons at ranges rather than at home. Since that event we've not had another mass killing if flawed memory serves me right. Perhaps the answer is to ban introversion.  

Speaking of which, (I am too lazy to research) are there any comparative stats on violent crimes in countries where there is strict gun control vs. those that do not ?

I remember the man that massacred all of those schoolchildren in Dunblane, Scotland ( think I am spelling that right) and do not know what their gun laws are like.

But, like someone already pointed out, Norway could not prevent this type of abhorrent crime, but at the same time, I have no idea what their laws are like.

I have heard NRA advocates talk about higher crime rates in places like England, but do not know the stats on that either.

My question is this, has gun control ever proven itself to be an effective deterrent and lack of gun control been proven to increase crime ?

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Beyond Saving wrote:Luminon

Beyond Saving wrote:

Luminon wrote:

But in my country we have gun control and I don't remember ever hearing about school shootings in central Europe. Ever. I know of two deaths by stabbing (one by a paintbrush). But I really can't find anything about school shootings. From that point of view at least, gun control works. It restricts the violence to what's at hand, which is usually nothing. There's probably just as much violence at schools like everywhere else, but hardly anybody has a real gun. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting

These shootings happen everywhere. (Germany happens to have very tight gun regulations even by European standards) You have to remember the US is a big country with a huge population, so saying one hasn't happened in your country in recent memory is like me saying one hasn't happened in Ohio. Plus the US gets a disproportionate amount of global news reporting so you hear about what happens here more. 

I find it interesting that doing my quick search I found an article that is completely opposing typical US coverage of this type of event http://shiftmag.eu/post/29964263117/europe-school-shootings

 

Looks like Beyond already answered my quetion.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Beyond Saving wrote: Yeah,

Beyond Saving wrote:

 

Yeah, because we already have that law. My solution? I don't think there is a good one. The fact is that you can't make the world a perfect place and often times your attempts to do so will make things worse. People will do shitty things and sometimes there isn't jack shit you can do to prevent it (at least nothing reasonable). 

The solution is to allow the federal government to become big brother like in George Orwell's 1984.

We should give standardized tests to every citizen of America. Detect the psychos before they reach adulthood. Once found, eliminate them. Then keep track of those families which had genetic issues previously. Check all future offspring.

No need for guns because the government will provide for us.

 


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Beyond Saving wrote: And

Beyond Saving wrote:
And that is the problem. In 20/20 hindsight it is easy to notice all of the "warning" signs but picking them out in advance is extremely difficult. Teenagers being anti-social, introverted, depressed or being bullied are not rare and the vast majority of teenagers that fit that description will never kill anyone and probably are far more dangerous to themselves than to anyone else. How do you pick out the ticking time bombs without being overbearing on those who are not? I don't know, and I am not convinced that anyone does. 
The signs are easy to see, but we instinctively avoid them or we're not educated to notice them. Let's face it, kids with Asperger's or otherwise aren't particularly appealing. They've outgrown the stage when it's endearing. If teachers knew what I know, they could pick out teenagers that don't socialize well and have little self-awareness, which results in alienation. If we can't pick out the time bombs, we must improve the overall groups.

They should pick out all those that don't go drinking with the main group and observe them, put them through some tests. Let them seriously work together at some task. Make a SWOT analysis for each of them, ask them what they think about each other, anonymously of course. Most importantly, make a list of their issues. If I'm an alienated teenager with stinky breath, bad or crooked teeth, some likely personality disorder, harbored angst, family problems that reflect in school behavior, then I should know about it, a psychologist should know about it. And there should be an acting club, that would be an undercover method of social skills training. Kids would be trained to get into a role and understand why in the scenario the other actors react in such a way. It would also be a cool reality show, btw. Smiling

For example, one guy alternated between being extra nice to me, and bullying. It made sense if he was ignored at home and was capable of anything to get some kind of attention from someone. 
Another guy was laughed at and name-called as a "pate king" because every day he had bread rolls with a pate, which are cheap to buy. It made sense if he had some home issues and his mother did not look after him or made him lunch, ever.
Another had quite a visage that would greatly benefit from some serious dentist intervention and bad temper on top of that, yet he was blissfully unaware of it.
Just such a thing as training of self-awareness and awareness of others would do a lot of good. Anyway, what can be done? Perhaps not from the outside, but can any relatively well-adjusted kids be trained to diagnose their classmates? To provide leadership, discourage bullying, and so on? Or have everyone at this age so many problems that they're of no use to anyone else? Maybe on some schools it's better, but all schools I've been in, the collective was a mess, most of people didn't bond, and teachers told us we're the worst class at school. Do I have to invent all the school psych science by myself, or are there any works on that anywhere?

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Jeffrick wrote:Beyond Saving

Jeffrick wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Jeffrick wrote:

  All this today for the greater glory of the NRA.  The National rifle association IS right 'every person SHOULd have a gun':  with no age limit!!!  Just think  if all those 6,7, and 8 year olds and their teachers had guns at the ready this nut case would have been gunned down long before he racked up 27 victoms.  Guns are needed, guns are fun just ask the NRA, guns don't kill people----people kill people----guns just aren't involved. FUCK the second amendment which has that whimpy caveat about a "well regulated Militia....."   The militia wasn't there,  the students and teachers were,  they need guns,  guns,  guns. Any 5 year old with a magnum .45 could have stopped this tragedy  why aren't 5 year olds allowed guns just like the NRA demands  and FUCK the second amendment!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

So exactly what policy would you propose that might have had a chance of preventing this?

 I told you  FUCK the 2nd amendment and give guns to everyone Regardless of age.  I  have never been called a liberal, has anything I have ever written on this site labaled me a LIBERAL.  Hell no !!!  Hand guns are made for one reason only  KILL HUMANS they have no other purpose,  rifles & shotguns put meat on the table, handguns kill people that's all they are made for.  Go ask the NRA,  GUNS for everyone!!! Fuck rationality, fuck humanity,  stand by your RIGHT  to gun down your wife at 1:33 AM on George Washingtons birthday in front of  your 7  children.  The NRA  will defend to the death your right to do it.   GUNS for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. We should have mandatory gun classes for EVERY person in the US. Then make it mandatory that every one carry at least a .38.

If EVERY one carried weapons I believe it would reduce the number of shootings.

I'd even say that bonuses would be given to those people who stop crimes, kill terrorists and capture perps.

 


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Beyond Saving wrote:cj

Beyond Saving wrote:

cj wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

So exactly what policy would you propose that might have had a chance of preventing this?

 

I would go for the Swiss model -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

You have a weapon issued by the army, but no ammunition at home unless it might be required en route in case of an invasion. "Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still have ammunition stored at home today."

You may purchase ammunition at shooting ranges, but you must use ALL of it at the range.

You may carry a gun if you are in a profession that requires one - such as security.

And so on.

 

Most importantly, almost every male between the ages of 20 and 30 is conscripted into the militia and undergoes weapons training.  There are few op-outs. 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zug_massacre

 

 

Didn't say it was perfect.

 

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:I see

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

I see no emotional outrage over these needless highway deaths nor do I see the call for drastic measures to curtail this unsafe behavior.  Why, when contrasted with gun deaths, are these traffic statistics so uninspiring to gun control advocates ?

Because people are illogical: traffic deaths rarely occur in huge clumps and rarely involve malicious intent.

 


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blacklight915 wrote:Because

blacklight915 wrote:

Because people are illogical: traffic deaths rarely occur in huge clumps and rarely involve malicious intent.

 

  Well,  the average statistic in the state of Texas is 250 fatalities a month so that's a fairly large "clump" of death within just 30 days.   Malicious intent or not.  And yes, it is an extremely illogical attitude toward the issue of public safety. 

 

  Any fool should see the motivation behind the "outrage" is not based upon altruism but is entirely political in nature. 

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blacklight915

blacklight915 wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

I see no emotional outrage over these needless highway deaths nor do I see the call for drastic measures to curtail this unsafe behavior.  Why, when contrasted with gun deaths, are these traffic statistics so uninspiring to gun control advocates ?

Because people are illogical: traffic deaths rarely occur in huge clumps and rarely involve malicious intent.

 

There is outrage over needless highway deaths. MADD got started for that same reason, there are plenty of non-profit "awarness" groups out there which started because people were outraged over one thing or another.

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:There

digitalbeachbum wrote:

There is outrage over needless highway deaths. MADD got started for that same reason, there are plenty of non-profit "awarness" groups out there which started because people were outraged over one thing or another.

   

 

         Does MADD advocate for laws that subject heretofore law-abiding people to severe criminal penalties simply for possessing alcohol and a drivers license ?  

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Brian37 wrote:

Breaking news. How many events like this have to happen before gun control is taken seriously? 18 grade schoolers and 8 adults.

If there were a way to prevent loonies from stealing and using guns by legislation ... excuse there are laws against theft. There are also laws against murder for that matter. Of course we could outlaw anything that might inspire such atrocities like the SAME thing in Star Wars III done by Darth Vader.

Problem is the gun control mentality has nothing which addresses any of these atrocities.

A rather amusing current example is the childhood obesity issue addressed by changes in the school lunch program. Now if school lunches were the cause of obesity then by all means change the lunches. But as they are not now and never were there is no rational foundation for doing something unrelated to the stated problem.

It is difficult to imagine anyone who would object to doing something which can be demonstrated to prevent this specific type of event from recurring. However there is nothing proposed on the gun control agenda which addresses it in any way.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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Jabberwocky wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Yeah, we should pass a law banning all guns within 1000 feet of school grounds because that will stop these psychos...

I detect sarcasm here. But you have to understand that the lack of gun control in the USA does set it apart specifically from other first world countries, and there is a disproportionate amount of gun violence occurring there. Until somebody identifies something else that may potentially be a major factor, implementing gun control is a very, VERY good idea. I agree that it won't solve everything overnight, but how can you possibly say that it is not a major factor? What's your solution?

If you have specific legislation which would address this specific problem the US is more than interested in hearing of it. If you have nothing but the hundreds of things which have been tried and not worked don't bother. If you have nothing which does not address preventing a repetition of this specific event you are using it to promote an unrelated agenda.

Fact is guns became the leading method of murder in the 1950s. Fact it the overall murder rate did NOT increase in the 1950s or at any time later. The only change was the choice of method. Guns took the lead from clubs and blunt force objects not from anything which possibly be banned or legislated against.

Yes, we are violent MFs. No, there is no way to change the nature of a society by legislation.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

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Brian37 wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Breaking news. How many events like this have to happen before gun control is taken seriously?

  26 innocent lives taken for no good reason is a disgusting statistic, indeed.   What do you consider "serious" gun control ?

Certainly we should allow the continued sale of guns to anyone who wants one. Who needs vetting of CIA agents, or SWAT team members or cops. Lets just sell cigarettes and porn to 5 year olds.

Pardon but you are suggesting nothing which would have prevented this specific event.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

There is outrage over needless highway deaths. MADD got started for that same reason, there are plenty of non-profit "awarness" groups out there which started because people were outraged over one thing or another.

         Does MADD advocate for laws that subject heretofore law-abiding people to severe criminal penalties simply for possessing alcohol and a drivers license ?  

http://www.drunkard.com/issues/08_02/08_02_fighting_madd.htm

 


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So I'd love to hear some

So I'd love to hear some ideas on how to prevent mass shootings like this? Is this just part of society we will have to endure? I know America is one of the worst, if not the worst, country for this style of mass murders. Other countries have issues too but we seem to have very bad history of creating these tragedies.

Options seem limited. No matter what you do people are going to say you are violating their rights. I for one am willing to give up my rights to protect the innocent. I would submit myself to psychological testing, give up my right to have weapons and I am willing to have the federal government snoop in on my phone calls, emails or browsing.

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote: I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

 I for one am willing to give up my rights to protect the innocent. I would submit myself to psychological testing, give up my right to have weapons and I am willing to have the federal government snoop in on my phone calls, emails or browsing.

 

   Why limit yourself to only half-measures ?   To really show how much you trust the national law makers you could simply submit yourself to the Federal government for indefinite detention,  just to be on the safe side.

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:  

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

   Why limit yourself to only half-measures ?   To really show how much you trust the national law makers you could simply submit yourself to the Federal government for indefinite detention,  just to be on the safe side.

Yeah, I really don't see a Big Brother government as any type of real solution. Give the government total control or too much leeway, and you open the door to all types of agendas.

Call me evoking the slippery slope fallacy, but history has deomonstrated this happens.

I can just see it now :" All Atheists have to forfeit their rights, all gay people have to forfeit their rights, etc. etc."

I am just not comfortable trusting a bunch of politicians and military personnel to have my protection and the protection of people in general at heart.

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

There is outrage over needless highway deaths. MADD got started for that same reason, there are plenty of non-profit "awarness" groups out there which started because people were outraged over one thing or another.

   

 

         Does MADD advocate for laws that subject heretofore law-abiding people to severe criminal penalties simply for possessing alcohol and a drivers license ?  

Don't give them ideas. There are plenty of people out there who would love to ban alcohol. It's just that more people drink than own guns so it is less popular. Our local prohibitionist, attorney general Mike Dewine has pushed to keep high alcohol beers illegal and is now attempting to ban the purchase of alcohol being mixed with energy drinks at the bar such as a vodka and red bull. Not sure exactly what that has to do with his job as attorney general. By going after one drink at a time, they only face resistance from people who prefer that particular beverage, a much smaller group than all alcohol drinkers.

Much like they recommend gun regulations that ban only "assault" weapons, which you and I know are almost never used in mass shootings because the customization in that kind of gun usually means they are a bit more expensive than the basic models and purchased only by gun nuts. But many gun owners that buy guns for hunting are never going to consider getting a tactical package that somehow (not quite sure how) manages to convert a gun into this weapon of mass destruction so they go "oh that doesn't affect me, that is reasonable".  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


Beyond Saving
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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

 I for one am willing to give up my rights to protect the innocent. I would submit myself to psychological testing, give up my right to have weapons and I am willing to have the federal government snoop in on my phone calls, emails or browsing.

 

   Why limit yourself to only half-measures ?   To really show how much you trust the national law makers you could simply submit yourself to the Federal government for indefinite detention,  just to be on the safe side.

Yeah, cause we all know that no government in history has ever used their monopoly of force to torture and kill people or round them up into concentration camps. Why throughout human history, government power has never been abused and even mentioning it is just evidence you are a right wing nut who should be on the terrorist watch list. This freedom thing is a completely ridiculous idea. People don't even know how to eat properly without Michelle Obama. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X