Can God exist, if the supernatural doesn't?

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Can God exist, if the supernatural doesn't?

Throughout history the great majority of the planet's human population has believed and continues to believe that reality is organized into two realms: one natural and the other supernatural. But what if the supernatural doesn't exist? Could the concept of God survive in a solely natural reality? 
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roseweed

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cj
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Obviously, the concept of

Obviously, the concept of god does exist in a solely natural universe, because that is what the universe is - natural.  There is no supernatural.  That doesn't mean that people aren't perfectly capable of being delusional and making concepts of god and other supernatural stuff.

I enjoy a good fantasy or sci-fi.  Lots of fun.  Total mind candy.  And that is all it is.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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God is an opinion which

God is an opinion which comes in many forms. It doesn't exist as a whole but fragmented through out society with each individual having their own opinion.


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 I ask this question

 I ask this question because on forums like this there is often heated debate by both believers and non-believers focused on gods and spirits and miracles and life after death, and such -- but little debate about "the supernatural" itself, what is it, what is it like, where is it, etc. It seems to me the larger question to discuss is, does this alleged other part of reality exist, is there any evidence for this control-room dimension, this behind-the-scenes, from which the natural world is purportedly staged? And if not, and if they could be convinced otherwise, could those who currently believe in such things adjust their beliefs to accommodate a non-supernatural God?

roseweed

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cj
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roseweeed wrote:  I ask

roseweeed wrote:

 I ask this question because on forums like this there is often heated debate by both believers and non-believers focused on gods and spirits and miracles and life after death, and such -- but little debate about "the supernatural" itself, what is it, what is it like, where is it, etc. It seems to me the larger question to discuss is, does this alleged other part of reality exist, is there any evidence for this control-room dimension, this behind-the-scenes, from which the natural world is purportedly staged? And if not, and if they could be convinced otherwise, could those who currently believe in such things adjust their beliefs to accommodate a non-supernatural God?

 

I am so rational, my philosophy instructor laughs at me.  And he advocates rationality. 

Okay, there is no evidence for the supernatural.  James Randi foundation will give you lots of money if you can prove it.  No one has met the challenge.  I would think that after so many failed attempts, we could say, all right, doesn't exist.  Next!!

But no, people make up stuff because the universe is random.  Truly, completely, mathematically random.  And like Skinner's pigeons, when people have a truly random reward system, they make up superstitions.  I don't see this as a big deal, but lots of people have fits about being compared to a pigeon.  Why not?  The oldest structures in the human brain are identical to what a pigeon has.  We have more structures a pigeon doesn't have, we have larger structures, but still, the very basis of our brain is identical to a pigeon - or any other creature with a very small brain. 

Anyway, the universe is not just, good and bad people do not get what they deserve, life is not fair.  And there is no reward in heaven and no punishment in hell.  When I die, it will be just like before I was born.  Nothing, nada, zip.  And I hope my family remembers me fondly.

Why believe in a god/s/dess that is not supernatural?  Why go to all that effort, spend all that time and money on a being(s) that can not do anything any more remarkable than what science can do - such as typing shit on a forum on the internet?  How marvelous is this?  Come on, I was born in 1950 and we had rotary dial telephones until I was in high school.  TV was black and white.  Computers took up entire rooms and took days to compute anything significant and ran on vacuum tubes.  How marvelous is science and the works of man?  Why the hell does anyone need some lame ass god/s/dess on top of what we can do for ourselves?

But I don't believe that we can bring the majority of people into the 21st century without some serious culture shifts and a whole lot of training in critical thinking.  Which is a very unpopular idea at this time.  After all, that would be a "war" on religion.

Cue the world's smallest violin playing "Hearts and Flowers."

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


GodsUseForAMosquito
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roseweeed wrote: I ask this

roseweeed wrote:

 I ask this question because on forums like this there is often heated debate by both believers and non-believers focused on gods and spirits and miracles and life after death, and such -- but little debate about "the supernatural" itself, what is it, what is it like, where is it, etc. It seems to me the larger question to discuss is, does this alleged other part of reality exist, is there any evidence for this control-room dimension, this behind-the-scenes, from which the natural world is purportedly staged? And if not, and if they could be convinced otherwise, could those who currently believe in such things adjust their beliefs to accommodate a non-supernatural God?

By definition the supernatural is beyond scientific understanding, so there can never be evidence for it - as soon as evidence exists (and cannot be disproven) it ceases to be supernatural and is accepted as purely natural.

You will always have difficulty conclusively disproving something that there's no evidence for - it's Russell's teapot - but that doesn't mean that it therefore does exist. This is the point that a lot of theists don't appear to grasp.

 

 

 

 


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GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:By

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

By definition the supernatural is beyond scientific understanding, so there can never be evidence for it - as soon as evidence exists (and cannot be disproven) it ceases to be supernatural and is accepted as purely natural.

You will always have difficulty conclusively disproving something that there's no evidence for - it's Russell's teapot - but that doesn't mean that it therefore does exist. This is the point that a lot of theists don't appear to grasp.

 

Good response.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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roseweeed wrote:

Throughout history the great majority of the planet's human population has believed and continues to believe that reality is organized into two realms: one natural and the other supernatural. But what if the supernatural doesn't exist? Could the concept of God survive in a solely natural reality?

Believers are idiots. What is your point?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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roseweeed wrote:

 I ask this question because on forums like this there is often heated debate by both believers and non-believers focused on gods and spirits and miracles and life after death, and such -- but little debate about "the supernatural" itself, what is it, what is it like, where is it, etc. It seems to me the larger question to discuss is, does this alleged other part of reality exist, is there any evidence for this control-room dimension, this behind-the-scenes, from which the natural world is purportedly staged? And if not, and if they could be convinced otherwise, could those who currently believe in such things adjust their beliefs to accommodate a non-supernatural God?

Define and produce physical evidence of this "supernatural" you are imagining. Then we may be able to talk about it.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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God exists to the same

God exists to the same extent Harry Potter and Mickey Mouse do. The only difference between God and comic book characters is that one is accepted as fiction and the other people kill over even though it is fiction.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Define

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Define and produce physical evidence of this "supernatural" you are imagining. Then we may be able to talk about it.

Apologies, maybe I gave the wrong impression -- let me try to clarify. I do not believe in the supernatural -- but it is, after all, the overarching concept which allows for gods, demons, spirits, and other forms of imaginary woowoo to exist in human imagination. In a debate with those who believe such things are real, I am suggesting the more convincing argument, the more ontologically sound one, is to debunk the idea of the supernatural itself rather than getting caught up in the web of mythologies that animate its fantasy creatures and cultures (arguing over Biblical contradictions and inerrancies, for example).

Believers develop a personal and emotional relationship with their make-believe friends and saviours, but the supernatural is an easier notion to extract from those deep feelings-based attachments and thus discuss objectively. Subtract the supernatural from religious thought and God can still exist as a comforting or poetic concept, an "oceanic sense" that is sermonized metaphorically rather than literally -- and that is approached as the aesthetic dimension of science and the acquisition of knowledge. Reason will never prevail in eradicating the cancer of supernatural belief systems if it does not acknowledge the need for humans to be as emotionally attached to their natural existence as they are to their pretend one.

 

 

roseweed

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Everything that happens, happens somehow.


harleysportster
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roseweeed wrote:Believers

roseweeed wrote:

Believers develop a personal and emotional relationship with their make-believe friends and saviours, but the supernatural is an easier notion to extract from those deep feelings-based attachments and thus discuss objectively. Subtract the supernatural from religious thought and God can still exist as a comforting or poetic concept, an "oceanic sense" that is sermonized metaphorically rather than literally -- and that is approached as the aesthetic dimension of science and the acquisition of knowledge. Reason will never prevail in eradicating the cancer of supernatural belief systems if it does not acknowledge the need for humans to be as emotionally attached to their natural existence as they are to their pretend one.

 

I see where your coming from.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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For me the supernatural

 

is a code word for the human imagination. Human brains have an ability to create alternative realities that allow them to role play, to plan, to consider outcomes of multiple courses of action in advance. All these are great advantages, given they allow possible events to be played out in an environment of complete safety. I think you could argue the 'supernatural' exists in our ability to manipulate reality and to remember these lateral mental concepts. Faced with mortality and loss of control in a random and rather chaotic world it makes some sort of sense from the point of view of feeling better, that humans attempt to stablilise the natural world by imagining a universal controller. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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roseweeed wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Define and produce physical evidence of this "supernatural" you are imagining. Then we may be able to talk about it.

Apologies, maybe I gave the wrong impression -- let me try to clarify. I do not believe in the supernatural -- but it is, after all, the overarching concept which allows for gods, demons, spirits, and other forms of imaginary woowoo to exist in human imagination. In a debate with those who believe such things are real, I am suggesting the more convincing argument, the more ontologically sound one, is to debunk the idea of the supernatural itself rather than getting caught up in the web of mythologies that animate its fantasy creatures and cultures (arguing over Biblical contradictions and inerrancies, for example).

And you missed the obvious response. One does not debate or debunk that for which there is no physical evidence. The supernatural is without physical evidence. Therefore you kick believers back into the hovels rather than elevate them by "debating" them.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml