Another form of 'Pray Away The Gay'?

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Another form of 'Pray Away The Gay'?

Are these people really that stupid? And who is running the American Psychological Association? How can they support this bullshit?

 

usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/05/15658164-therapists-defend-gay-conversion-counseling-you-cant-say-gay-once-gay-always

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not a policing body

APA is not a policing body.  That is up to the states.  You may or may not be required to be a licensed practitioner in your state, but the APA has nothing to do with this.

According to one of my professors, many psychologists/psychiatrists stick with evidence based practice.  But there are a number of practitioners who don't.  And she said the point is to help the client deal with their life and some clients have some pretty strange ideas of what works for them.  Notice in the article that the APA says that this is not evidence based therapy. 

As they pointed out in the article, their clients are men who are conservative for the most part and are intensely uncomfortable with their attraction to other men.  They are only providing the therapy their clients want.

I happen to agree with you that the entire idea is bs.  And I really, really, really agree with the law that you can not force this kind of therapy on a minor.  That would mean you could drag your 16 year old in without his/her permission.  Which would only make it worse, if you ask me.  Then the kid would feel the need to rebel.  What a mess.  Stupid parents.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Quote:Most of Nicolosi's

Quote:

Most of Nicolosi's clients are men from conservative, religious backgrounds, he said.

About 40 percent are teens, and about half of them, sent by their parents, say they don’t want to change or are confused. “We say, fine, you want to be gay, but are you curious in understanding why you’re gay?” Nicolosi said.

Oh yeah, sure. As if he knows.

I got emotionally blackmailed by my parents into going to one of these guy when I was younger, and I got handed the same bullshit theory as this dude comes up with : You don't get along with your dad, you're too close to your mom, blablabla, not "manly" enough, etc... 

Unfortunately for him, I happen to have a really close bond with my dad and most of my male family members, and me and my mom never really got along. 

So I asked if he had anything else. When he explained about the physical part of the therapy, I laughed in his face and left.

A friend of mine got sent to the same guy, bought it all, and ended up killing himself.

 

But I guess they don't do the "naked" and "oranges" therapy any more. It's all just talking now, no more shaming.

That's nice. Too late, though, but nice.

 

Oh well...fun article though. Some great quotes.

David Pickup, a licensed therapist wrote:
“I never lived the gay lifestyle. I just had sexual experiences.”

"I"m not gay, I just have sex with men"

Yeah....whatever.

 

 


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Anonymouse wrote:A friend of

Anonymouse wrote:

A friend of mine got sent to the same guy, bought it all, and ended up killing himself.

 

But I guess they don't do the "naked" and "oranges" therapy any more. It's all just talking now, no more shaming.

That's nice. Too late, though, but nice.

 

Oh well...fun article though. Some great quotes.

David Pickup, a licensed therapist wrote:
“I never lived the gay lifestyle. I just had sexual experiences.”

"I"m not gay, I just have sex with men"

Yeah....whatever.

 

Death is always a possibility when dealing with troubled people.  They come to a therapist because they are troubled, and if the therapist fucks it up, they could injure or kill themselves or others.  So sorry about your friend.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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cj wrote:APA is not a

cj wrote:

APA is not a policing body.  That is up to the states.  You may or may not be required to be a licensed practitioner in your state, but the APA has nothing to do with this.

According to one of my professors, many psychologists/psychiatrists stick with evidence based practice.  But there are a number of practitioners who don't.  And she said the point is to help the client deal with their life and some clients have some pretty strange ideas of what works for them.  Notice in the article that the APA says that this is not evidence based therapy. 

As they pointed out in the article, their clients are men who are conservative for the most part and are intensely uncomfortable with their attraction to other men.  They are only providing the therapy their clients want.

I happen to agree with you that the entire idea is bs.  And I really, really, really agree with the law that you can not force this kind of therapy on a minor.  That would mean you could drag your 16 year old in without his/her permission.  Which would only make it worse, if you ask me.  Then the kid would feel the need to rebel.  What a mess.  Stupid parents.

I can understand the extent of the APA power and their platform on this subject, but they are supposed to be scientific about this form of therapy. It doesn't work so why support it?

This reminds me of that old school thinking that if you had a baby who was a boy but had both genitalia you could cut one part off then treat them like a girl/boy. They will adjust and will become how you treat them.

BULLSHIT.

I'm not expert but logic tells me that you would need to wait until they get older to have the operation. This way you could really know if they are a girl or a boy on the inside.

The same with being gay or not being gay.

Can you take a heterosexual guy and then train him to be gay? No.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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Anonymouse wrote:Oh

Anonymouse wrote:

Oh well...fun article though. Some great quotes.

David Pickup, a licensed therapist wrote:
“I never lived the gay lifestyle. I just had sexual experiences.”

"I"m not gay, I just have sex with men"

Yeah....whatever.

 

Yeah, really. You aren't gay but you have sex with men?

That's like the stories I heard from Marine buddies over in the middle east. They told me that there are "boy sex slaves" which are there for men to have sex with; but the receiver is the gay one, not the giver.

Huh? WTF?

Sorry. If you fuck another guy it's GAY.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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digitalbeachbum wrote:Yeah,

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Yeah, really. You aren't gay but you have sex with men?

That's like the stories I heard from Marine buddies over in the middle east. They told me that there are "boy sex slaves" which are there for men to have sex with; but the receiver is the gay one, not the giver.

Huh? WTF?

Sorry. If you fuck another guy it's GAY.

 

I have actually encountered dudes that have admitted to getting blowjobs from men, and say that as long as they were not the ones giving it, they were not gay.

Oddly enough, these very same guys were the most ardently gay-bashing on par with Westboro types.

I don't care if people are gay mind you, but it just seems rather dumb to me, to engage in sexual activity that in my book is gay, claim that it is not and profess and hatred for gay people. I don't get it.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Anonymouse wrote:A friend of

Anonymouse wrote:

A friend of mine got sent to the same guy, bought it all, and ended up killing himself.

But I guess they don't do the "naked" and "oranges" therapy any more. It's all just talking now, no more shaming.

Hearing things like that just really piss me off. Your friend didn't have a damned thing wrong with him, and got bullied and shamed into total despair by a fucking quack therapist.

Although I am not gay, the constant state of guilt that my theist upbringing instilled in me about sex makes me somewhat relate.

When I was an adolescent and first actually kissed a girl and rubbed her leg, rather than experience any joy, all I felt was guilt and shame and a need to pray to god to deliver me from temptation.

So in essence, the church completely fucked up my coming of age years and it wasn't until I was almost grown, that I was able to experience intimacy with women without feeling a load of guilt.

Theism and it's sexual hangups, totally pisses me off.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Yeah, really. You aren't gay but you have sex with men?

That's like the stories I heard from Marine buddies over in the middle east. They told me that there are "boy sex slaves" which are there for men to have sex with; but the receiver is the gay one, not the giver.

Huh? WTF?

Sorry. If you fuck another guy it's GAY.

I have actually encountered dudes that have admitted to getting blowjobs from men, and say that as long as they were not the ones giving it, they were not gay.

Oddly enough, these very same guys were the most ardently gay-bashing on par with Westboro types.

I don't care if people are gay mind you, but it just seems rather dumb to me, to engage in sexual activity that in my book is gay, claim that it is not and profess and hatred for gay people. I don't get it.

 

Ah, from my social deviancy book.  See what a college education can get ya?

 

 

"Trades

The straights whose sexual feelings and experiences are predominantly heterosexual and only incidentally gay are called trades. All trades are males. They are, or have been, married, and seek same-sex experiences mostly as a means of releasing tension. Were cheap brothels easily accessible to them, they would frequent them. They want other men to go down on them but refuse to reciprocate. They will not fellate other men because they consider themselves straight and have a masculine self-image. Defining themselves as straight and masculine, they tend to treat their partner’s mouth as if it were a woman’s vagina. Many trades find their male sex-objects in public parks and rest rooms. In his classic study of same-sex activities in public rest rooms, Laud Humphreys (1970) found that most trades come from lower classes, are Roman Catholics, and do not get enough sex with their wives."

 

I wouldn't know about the Roman Catholic connection - what do you think, Harley?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Can

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Can you take a heterosexual guy and then train him to be gay? No.

I disagree. I think it is possible for a heterosexual guy to be conditioned to become gay (or vice versa) as I believe it is possible to condition humans using sexual stimulation as a reward. Whether it is something that is emotionally healthy or beneficial is a completely separate question. But simply based on my personal experiences, the specifics of what a person is attracted to can change over time. For example, a man who is sexually attracted to brunettes more than blondes might find that after spending a significant amount of time with a blond sexual partner he is more attracted to blondes than brunettes. I see no reason why the same might not hold for people of an opposing gender.

I postulate it would be likely that if a male received consistent sexual stimulation from males but not females that person might become gay. As far as I know, no one has ever attempted such a study. I am just speaking from my personal experience of becoming increasingly attracted to women similar to the ones that accepted my sexual advances compared to the ones that refused them. The "girl of my dreams" today, is not the same girl of my dreams when I was 16. 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


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cj wrote:  "I wouldn't

cj wrote:
 

 

"I wouldn't know about the Roman Catholic connection - what do you think, Harley?

 

It was growing up, in and around the Catholic Church, that I first heard of this type of practice. From gay-hating men. It never made sense to me at the time. Did not know there was a name for it.

Wonder if that bit about it being predominantly Roman Catholic is true ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Beyond Saving wrote:I

Beyond Saving wrote:

I postulate it would be likely that if a male received consistent sexual stimulation from males but not females that person might become gay. As far as I know, no one has ever attempted such a study. I am just speaking from my personal experience of becoming increasingly attracted to women similar to the ones that accepted my sexual advances compared to the ones that refused them. The "girl of my dreams" today, is not the same girl of my dreams when I was 16. 

This brings about something that I have always wondered about.

( Hopefully, I'll never find out).

But, I have heard people say that people that commit rape or just have homosexual experiences in prison are not really gay.

I can kinda see the rape thing, as rape is more of a stimulation from the act of violence than anything to do with lust. Really violent sociopaths could probably easily commt such acts, because it is the violence and intimidation that they are enjoying, just like men that rape women are doing so out of the pleasure of inflicting pain.

But, what of people that would have same-sex relations during long term incarceration ?

I mean, I just can't see myself being sexually attracted to another man. But, could it be possible, that if I were incarcerated for 15 or 30 years that the desire to have sex could turn in that direction ?

I just don't think it could. Even if I had to illegally purchase contraband porno mags in prison, I just can't see myself getting stimulated by another man.

Hell, there are plenty of women that I could not be attracted to, not even at gunpoint.

I guess there is no way to answer that unless an ex-con wanted to actually tell me. But, something tells me that the last thing an ex-con would want to talk about, is sex in prison.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:cj

harleysportster wrote:

cj wrote:
 

I wouldn't know about the Roman Catholic connection - what do you think, Harley?

It was growing up, in and around the Catholic Church, that I first heard of this type of practice. From gay-hating men. It never made sense to me at the time. Did not know there was a name for it.

Wonder if that bit about it being predominantly Roman Catholic is true ?

 

Well, the 1970 study author thought so.  Don't know if it is still true today.  And for your other post - that is "situational homosexuality" and yeah, it does happen as well.  Not everyone in prison or same sex schools or where ever practices, but enough do that they get wrote up in sociology texts.

 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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cj wrote:Well, the 1970

cj wrote:

Well, the 1970 study author thought so.  Don't know if it is still true today.  And for your other post - that is "situational homosexuality" and yeah, it does happen as well.  Not everyone in prison or same sex schools or where ever practices, but enough do that they get wrote up in sociology texts.

 

I had never heard of situational homosexuality before. Interesting. I didn't know that sociology actually touched upon that subject, but then again sociology touches upon everything.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Yeah, really. You aren't gay but you have sex with men?

That's like the stories I heard from Marine buddies over in the middle east. They told me that there are "boy sex slaves" which are there for men to have sex with; but the receiver is the gay one, not the giver.

Huh? WTF?

Sorry. If you fuck another guy it's GAY.

 

I have actually encountered dudes that have admitted to getting blowjobs from men, and say that as long as they were not the ones giving it, they were not gay.

Oddly enough, these very same guys were the most ardently gay-bashing on par with Westboro types.

I don't care if people are gay mind you, but it just seems rather dumb to me, to engage in sexual activity that in my book is gay, claim that it is not and profess and hatred for gay people. I don't get it.

 

I agree. Gay sex is gay sex. I don't have a problem with gays but if you are going to act gay, have gay sex, etc, then excuse me... you are gay. Don't sit there and try to cover up your gay by making up some lame excuse.

Too many people, conservatives/people who are guilt filled, so they pretend not to be gay.

 

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


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cj wrote:harleysportster

cj wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Yeah, really. You aren't gay but you have sex with men?

That's like the stories I heard from Marine buddies over in the middle east. They told me that there are "boy sex slaves" which are there for men to have sex with; but the receiver is the gay one, not the giver.

Huh? WTF?

Sorry. If you fuck another guy it's GAY.

I have actually encountered dudes that have admitted to getting blowjobs from men, and say that as long as they were not the ones giving it, they were not gay.

Oddly enough, these very same guys were the most ardently gay-bashing on par with Westboro types.

I don't care if people are gay mind you, but it just seems rather dumb to me, to engage in sexual activity that in my book is gay, claim that it is not and profess and hatred for gay people. I don't get it.

 

Ah, from my social deviancy book.  See what a college education can get ya?

 

 

"Trades

The straights whose sexual feelings and experiences are predominantly heterosexual and only incidentally gay are called trades. All trades are males. They are, or have been, married, and seek same-sex experiences mostly as a means of releasing tension. Were cheap brothels easily accessible to them, they would frequent them. They want other men to go down on them but refuse to reciprocate. They will not fellate other men because they consider themselves straight and have a masculine self-image. Defining themselves as straight and masculine, they tend to treat their partner’s mouth as if it were a woman’s vagina. Many trades find their male sex-objects in public parks and rest rooms. In his classic study of same-sex activities in public rest rooms, Laud Humphreys (1970) found that most trades come from lower classes, are Roman Catholics, and do not get enough sex with their wives."

 

I wouldn't know about the Roman Catholic connection - what do you think, Harley?

 

I wouldn't limit a 'trade' to only Roman Catholic. Look at all the other people in the limelight who have been caught doing such things and aren't Roman Catholic.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Can you take a heterosexual guy and then train him to be gay? No.

I disagree. I think it is possible for a heterosexual guy to be conditioned to become gay (or vice versa) as I believe it is possible to condition humans using sexual stimulation as a reward. Whether it is something that is emotionally healthy or beneficial is a completely separate question. But simply based on my personal experiences, the specifics of what a person is attracted to can change over time. For example, a man who is sexually attracted to brunettes more than blondes might find that after spending a significant amount of time with a blond sexual partner he is more attracted to blondes than brunettes. I see no reason why the same might not hold for people of an opposing gender.

I postulate it would be likely that if a male received consistent sexual stimulation from males but not females that person might become gay. As far as I know, no one has ever attempted such a study. I am just speaking from my personal experience of becoming increasingly attracted to women similar to the ones that accepted my sexual advances compared to the ones that refused them. The "girl of my dreams" today, is not the same girl of my dreams when I was 16. 

I disagree.

You might be able to force them to ACT like a gay, but they wouldn't be naturally gay. It would be like forcing a person to go kill another person because you brain fucked them for three months. The conditioning makes that entire act possible.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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harleysportster wrote:Beyond

harleysportster wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

I postulate it would be likely that if a male received consistent sexual stimulation from males but not females that person might become gay. As far as I know, no one has ever attempted such a study. I am just speaking from my personal experience of becoming increasingly attracted to women similar to the ones that accepted my sexual advances compared to the ones that refused them. The "girl of my dreams" today, is not the same girl of my dreams when I was 16. 

This brings about something that I have always wondered about.

( Hopefully, I'll never find out).

But, I have heard people say that people that commit rape or just have homosexual experiences in prison are not really gay.

I can kinda see the rape thing, as rape is more of a stimulation from the act of violence than anything to do with lust. Really violent sociopaths could probably easily commt such acts, because it is the violence and intimidation that they are enjoying, just like men that rape women are doing so out of the pleasure of inflicting pain.

But, what of people that would have same-sex relations during long term incarceration ?

I mean, I just can't see myself being sexually attracted to another man. But, could it be possible, that if I were incarcerated for 15 or 30 years that the desire to have sex could turn in that direction ?

I just don't think it could. Even if I had to illegally purchase contraband porno mags in prison, I just can't see myself getting stimulated by another man.

Hell, there are plenty of women that I could not be attracted to, not even at gunpoint.

I guess there is no way to answer that unless an ex-con wanted to actually tell me. But, something tells me that the last thing an ex-con would want to talk about, is sex in prison.

Being in prison and being forced to have same sex when you didn't want to really do it is rape.

It's forced sex. It doesn't make you gay.

The difference is that there are people who, for example, get blow jobs from other guys and say "I'm not gay". Then you have people encarcirated for 20 years and surrounded by violence and mental illness who aren't gay but commit the acts because of the punishment if you don't do it.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


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digitalbeachbum wrote:Being

digitalbeachbum wrote:

Being in prison and being forced to have same sex when you didn't want to really do it is rape.

It's forced sex. It doesn't make you gay.

The difference is that there are people who, for example, get blow jobs from other guys and say "I'm not gay". Then you have people encarcirated for 20 years and surrounded by violence and mental illness who aren't gay but commit the acts because of the punishment if you don't do it.

I was referring to the people that commit the rape and those who have consensual relationships in prison.

Obviously, someone being gang raped is not gay.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I agree. Gay sex is gay sex. I don't have a problem with gays but if you are going to act gay, have gay sex, etc, then excuse me... you are gay. Don't sit there and try to cover up your gay by making up some lame excuse.

Too many people, conservatives/people who are guilt filled, so they pretend not to be gay.

 

I totally agree.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I wouldn't limit a 'trade' to only Roman Catholic. Look at all the other people in the limelight who have been caught doing such things and aren't Roman Catholic.

 

Yeah, I can't see a certain type of behavior limited to a specific religion.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I wouldn't limit a 'trade' to only Roman Catholic. Look at all the other people in the limelight who have been caught doing such things and aren't Roman Catholic.

 

Yeah, I can't see a certain type of behavior limited to a specific religion.

 

Not "limited to" but "more of them do than other groups" according to the study.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Beyond Saving wrote:I

Beyond Saving wrote:
I disagree. I think it is possible for a heterosexual guy to be conditioned to become gay (or vice versa) as I believe it is possible to condition humans using sexual stimulation as a reward. Whether it is something that is emotionally healthy or beneficial is a completely separate question.

 

Then what would even be the point of trying ? 

I mean, lock a guy up in a room with only a vacuum cleaner for company, and eventually the inevitable is going to happen. 

If it's just a question of what you can make people do if you leave them no other choice, then there's nothing you could learn from such a study. Nothing at all. 


 


Beyond Saving wrote:
But simply based on my personal experiences, the specifics of what a person is attracted to can change over time. For example, a man who is sexually attracted to brunettes more than blondes might find that after spending a significant amount of time with a blond sexual partner he is more attracted to blondes than brunettes. I see no reason why the same might not hold for people of an opposing gender.

 

I do, because I've tried. As has every gay teenager. It doesn't work. 

It's also worth remembering that being around women too much is what's supposed to turn people gay in the first place, according to the folks who believe we can be "turned". 

 


Beyond Saving wrote:
I postulate it would be likely that if a male received consistent sexual stimulation from males but not females that person might become gay. As far as I know, no one has ever attempted such a study.

 

That's because it would be utterly pointless. I mean, what's "constant" ? For the rest of his life ? Again, if it's all about what people might do if there's only ever one possibility, then what possible value could any conclusion drawn from such a study even have ? 

 


Beyond Saving wrote:
I am just speaking from my personal experience of becoming increasingly attracted to women similar to the ones that accepted my sexual advances compared to the ones that refused them. The "girl of my dreams" today, is not the same girl of my dreams when I was 16.
 

Still a girl, right ? 

I'm a pretty good kisser, btw. Want to try an experiment ? 


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cj wrote: In his classic

cj wrote:

 In his classic study of same-sex activities in public rest rooms, Laud Humphreys (1970) found that most trades come from lower classes, are Roman Catholics, and do not get enough sex with their wives."

 

 

As always with studies like that, I wonder how he got that information. Did he stick a rolled-up questionnaire through a glory hole ? 

Sorry to be vulgar, but if you're going to corner a guy in a toilet in the 70's, get the "not enough sex with my wife" excuse, and actually take that seriously.....*sigh*


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Anonymouse wrote:cj

Anonymouse wrote:

cj wrote:

 In his classic study of same-sex activities in public rest rooms, Laud Humphreys (1970) found that most trades come from lower classes, are Roman Catholics, and do not get enough sex with their wives."

 

 

As always with studies like that, I wonder how he got that information. Did he stick a rolled-up questionnaire through a glory hole ? 

Sorry to be vulgar, but if you're going to corner a guy in a toilet in the 70's, get the "not enough sex with my wife" excuse, and actually take that seriously.....*sigh*

 

I agree totally with you.  Its the only information I have currently and I've been too lazy to look for more. 

These are usually done via survey and - in the seventies - by whoever answered the ad in the newspaper.  And I still hear the "not enough sex with my wife" excuse for many other behaviors as well.  You would think guys could come up with something more original over the years....

When you take classes like this where the author selects studies to make a point in the book, you always have to realize there may be more information since the book was published, the original study may have been completely refuted, the author only chose the studies that suited his confirmation biases, and so on.  I only thought Harley might have been interested in what information I had.

No study is ever the ultimate truth.  But they can be interesting and further our knowledge if we don't throw our brains out when we read them.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj wrote:I only thought

cj wrote:

I only thought Harley might have been interested in what information I had.

 

I'm interested as well. If there's any reason to see those "trades" as anything else than wanting to have your cake and eat it, then I want to hear about it.


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digitalbeachbum wrote:I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I disagree.

You might be able to force them to ACT like a gay, but they wouldn't be naturally gay. It would be like forcing a person to go kill another person because you brain fucked them for three months. The conditioning makes that entire act possible.

 

But I thought, 

digitalbeachbum wrote:

I agree. Gay sex is gay sex. I don't have a problem with gays but if you are going to act gay, have gay sex, etc, then excuse me... you are gay. Don't sit there and try to cover up your gay by making up some lame excuse.

Too many people, conservatives/people who are guilt filled, so they pretend not to be gay.

If you get conditioned to kill people, you are a killer regardless of whether or not you would naturally have ever have had a killer instinct without that conditioning. 

If you get conditioned to enjoy gay sex and seek it out then you are someone who seeks out gay sex which by your definition here is gay. Now I think if your definition of "gay" is that broad it would be remarkably easy to condition people to enjoy gay sex- if most straight guys tried it I suspect that a very high percentage would enjoy the act. Nerves are nerves and when they are stimulated in the right ways it feels good as long as you can get around any psychological issues that prevent you from feeling the pleasure.

I argue it can go a step further beyond just the physical act and a person who was previously straight could overtime develop an emotional love for a person of the same sex. I don't claim that there is a foolproof way to use direct or indirect coercive force to change a persons preferences. I am simply claiming that behavior modification is possible in any area of behavior and emotional responses tend to fall in line with our behavior. I don't see why sex would be any different than any other behavior. Although with any behavior modification the difficulty of modifying the behavior can vary dramatically from situation to situation and can lead to significant psychological issues- especially when being used on an unwilling subject. 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


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Anonymouse wrote:Beyond

Anonymouse wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
I disagree. I think it is possible for a heterosexual guy to be conditioned to become gay (or vice versa) as I believe it is possible to condition humans using sexual stimulation as a reward. Whether it is something that is emotionally healthy or beneficial is a completely separate question.

 

Then what would even be the point of trying ? 

I mean, lock a guy up in a room with only a vacuum cleaner for company, and eventually the inevitable is going to happen. 

If it's just a question of what you can make people do if you leave them no other choice, then there's nothing you could learn from such a study. Nothing at all. 

Given any study there is always something you can learn, even if the only thing you learn is that the hypothesis was wrong. 
 

 

Anonymouse wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
But simply based on my personal experiences, the specifics of what a person is attracted to can change over time. For example, a man who is sexually attracted to brunettes more than blondes might find that after spending a significant amount of time with a blond sexual partner he is more attracted to blondes than brunettes. I see no reason why the same might not hold for people of an opposing gender.

 

I do, because I've tried. As has every gay teenager. It doesn't work. 

It's also worth remembering that being around women too much is what's supposed to turn people gay in the first place, according to the folks who believe we can be "turned". 

Whether it works or not in one case is irrelevant to whether or not it is possible. The human brain is remarkably complex and any serious attempt at behavior modification has to be tailored to the specific individual- even then it isn't guaranteed to work and as I noted before always the risk that you create serious psychological problems.

I wouldn't consider any of the folks that currently attempt to convert gays as credible scientists. I'm sure that any competent psychologist when approached by someone who was gay and said they wanted to be straight would instead seek an approach to get that person to accept themselves rather than seek behavior modification. But again, just because doing so would be considered immoral by most competent psychologists does not mean it is impossible.  


 

Anonymouse wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
I am just speaking from my personal experience of becoming increasingly attracted to women similar to the ones that accepted my sexual advances compared to the ones that refused them. The "girl of my dreams" today, is not the same girl of my dreams when I was 16.
 

Still a girl, right ? 

Last time I checked, but will let you know if that ever changes. I have over time become a lot more comfortable with experimentation and things that when I was younger would have had an "icky" reaction such as participating in a mmf threesome. 

 

Anonymouse wrote:

I'm a pretty good kisser, btw. Want to try an experiment ? 

I'm always willing to experiment, just not willing to give up women in the meantime. 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


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Anonymouse wrote:Then what

Anonymouse wrote:
Then what would even be the point of trying ? 

I mean, lock a guy up in a room with only a vacuum cleaner for company, and eventually the inevitable is going to happen. 

If it's just a question of what you can make people do if you leave them no other choice, then there's nothing you could learn from such a study. Nothing at all.

No I disagree.

If I had a hot chick in the locked up in the room with me, I would never rape her. I might have sex with her eventually if she was consensual.

Anonymouse wrote:
Beyond Saving wrote:
But simply based on my personal experiences, the specifics of what a person is attracted to can change over time. For example, a man who is sexually attracted to brunettes more than blonds might find that after spending a significant amount of time with a blond sexual partner he is more attracted to blonds than brunettes. I see no reason why the same might not hold for people of an opposing gender.

 

I do, because I've tried. As has every gay teenager. It doesn't work. 

It's also worth remembering that being around women too much is what's supposed to turn people gay in the first place, according to the folks who believe we can be "turned".

I disagree with Beyond because I like brunettes and redheads, but I'd still fuck a blond hottie if she was offering. If a blond wasn't offering it to me then I wouldn't bother with chasing her or desiring her. Too many other fish in the sea...


Anonymouse wrote:
Beyond Saving wrote:
I postulate it would be likely that if a male received consistent sexual stimulation from males but not females that person might become gay. As far as I know, no one has ever attempted such a study.

 That's because it would be utterly pointless. I mean, what's "constant" ? For the rest of his life ? Again, if it's all about what people might do if there's only ever one possibility, then what possible value could any conclusion drawn from such a study even have ?

People being forced to have sex with a undesired sexual partner (let's say a guy being forced to fuck blonds which he does not favor over brunettes) would go back to their former desires once released from the forced sex. I suspect that if they were forced to have sex with women they didn't desire, two results would be possible.

1 - They realized that the color of hair does not make a difference during orgasm and that any clean pussy is a good pussy.

2 - They realized that the color of hair does matter and they build resentment towards blonds which they carry with them for the rest of their lives.

Anonymouse wrote:
Beyond Saving wrote:
I am just speaking from my personal experience of becoming increasingly attracted to women similar to the ones that accepted my sexual advances compared to the ones that refused them. The "girl of my dreams" today, is not the same girl of my dreams when I was 16.
 

Still a girl, right ? 

I'm a pretty good kisser, btw. Want to try an experiment ? 

Ahhhh, impermanence. Truth!

Ahhh, an experiment.... please give it a shot Beyond... let's see what happens!

 

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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Come on guys. Hair color ?

Come on guys. Hair color ? Please..

 

Beyond Saving wrote:
just because doing so would be considered immoral by most competent psychologists does not mean it is impossible.

 

It's not just that's it's immoral and could create serious psychological problems. There's another problem with this that makes it effectively impossible :

 

Dr Robert L. Spitzer wrote:
“As I read these commentaries, I knew this was a problem, a big problem, and one I couldn’t answer,” Dr. Spitzer said. “How do you know someone has really changed?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/health/dr-robert-l-spitzer-noted-psychiatrist-apologizes-for-study-on-gay-cure.html?_r=2&


 

Seriously, try answering that question. Can't be done. Completely impossible. 

 

Beyond Saving wrote:
I'm always willing to experiment, just not willing to give up women in the meantime.

 

No need. You're a good sport, and I think you get my point.

 

Oh heck, just one then.... *smooch*

 

 


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digitalbeachbum wrote:No I

digitalbeachbum wrote:

No I disagree.

If I had a hot chick in the locked up in the room with me, I would never rape her. I might have sex with her eventually if she was consensual.

 

 

If someone ,who knew what he was doing, messed with your brain chemistry enough, for long enough, you would do it, I would do it, everyone would do it. 

And that's precisely the reason why it would be pointless, and why it wouldn't mean a damn thing. 


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Anonymouse wrote:cj wrote:I

Anonymouse wrote:

cj wrote:

I only thought Harley might have been interested in what information I had.

 

I'm interested as well. If there's any reason to see those "trades" as anything else than wanting to have your cake and eat it, then I want to hear about it.

Yeah, the not getting enough sex from my wife excuse holds no water with me either.

If I was unhappily married or dissatisfied with my relationship and wanted to cheat, I would be looking for a female.

Why ? Because I am straight. I simply can not be stimulated by a guy (unless it was one of those mind control experiment things that has been alluded to on this thread).

Besides, stimulation aside, when someone says sex, I think of women.

I see no reason to assume that a gay person would be any different.

Hell, if a gay man was dissatisified with his boyfriend, is there any empirical evidence to say that he is going to go have a sexual type of encounter with a woman ?

If an openly gay man were caught with a woman, would anyone buy the excuse of "My boyfriend is not satisfying me ?"

To me (just my own opinion and definitely not professional) I would say that trades are guys with gay tendencies and don't want to own up.

After all, maybe there is a REAL reason why their wives aren't satisfying them, because their wives are not dudes.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Anonymouse wrote:Come on

Anonymouse wrote:

Come on guys. Hair color ? Please..

 

 Not making light of your points or this discussion, but I have to agree that hair color and sex is a bit of a stretch.

My girlfriend has auburn hair, fair complexion, green eyes and is rather petite, which is like, my ultimate type of woman.

I have seen plenty of dudes that have auburn hair, fair complexions, and green eyes, and must say that I wasn't turned on.

Although there was this one time..... um ... well nevermind. Laughing out loud

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Anonymouse wrote: It's not

Anonymouse wrote:
 

It's not just that's it's immoral and could create serious psychological problems. There's another problem with this that makes it effectively impossible :

Dr Robert L. Spitzer wrote:
“As I read these commentaries, I knew this was a problem, a big problem, and one I couldn’t answer,” Dr. Spitzer said. “How do you know someone has really changed?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/health/dr-robert-l-spitzer-noted-psychiatrist-apologizes-for-study-on-gay-cure.html?_r=2&


 

Seriously, try answering that question. Can't be done. Completely impossible. 

True. I tried a little to find some credible research on the subject and was unable to find anything of substance. Probably the most effective thing to study would be people who go to prison and experience their first homosexual experience (consensual or not) and then after leaving prison are gay. Obviously, many leave and go back to heterosexual lifestyles, some don't.

The main problem was that there doesn't seem to be much more than anecdotal evidence, plus the question of whether homosexual impulses were always there and simply accepted after the prison experience or whether there was real change. We have all heard the stories of people who get married and raise families living a heterosexual lifestyle and were gay all along. Given the high levels of gay discrimination that still remains in our culture that is hardly a surprise that people would feel significant pressure to lie even to themselves. 

Plus the entire definition of "gay". I think it is perfectly possible for a person to enjoy acts of gay sex and not really be gay. IOW, they enjoy the act but are not generally attracted to members of the same sex and don't form romantic relationships with them- they basically view their sex partner as a living sex toy for personal gratification. 

But for the most part I agree with you, whether it could be done or not, trying to psychological force yourself (or forced by someone else) to change your sexual orientation risks significant psychological problems and is not a good idea. 

 

Anonymouse wrote:

No need. You're a good sport, and I think you get my point.

 

Oh heck, just one then.... *smooch*

 

uh oh, a virtual gay smooch.... does that make me gay now? 

 

 

 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


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What happens in San Francisco stays in Frisco...

harleysportster wrote:

I have seen plenty of dudes that have auburn hair, fair complexions, and green eyes, and must say that I wasn't turned on.

Although there was this one time..... um ... well nevermind. Laughing out loud

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


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Beyond Saving wrote::D 

Beyond Saving wrote:

  Laughing out loud

Nah, definitely not my type if I was gay. Would need much longer hair and more petite build.

Oddly enough, my girlfriend IS from San Francisco, strange that was the topic heading.

Maybe this is GOD telling me to stay out of men's bathrooms when her and I get into an argument or something. 

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:
 

It's not just that's it's immoral and could create serious psychological problems. There's another problem with this that makes it effectively impossible :

Dr Robert L. Spitzer wrote:
“As I read these commentaries, I knew this was a problem, a big problem, and one I couldn’t answer,” Dr. Spitzer said. “How do you know someone has really changed?”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/health/dr-robert-l-spitzer-noted-psychiatrist-apologizes-for-study-on-gay-cure.html?_r=2&


 

Seriously, try answering that question. Can't be done. Completely impossible. 

True. I tried a little to find some credible research on the subject and was unable to find anything of substance. Probably the most effective thing to study would be people who go to prison and experience their first homosexual experience (consensual or not) and then after leaving prison are gay. Obviously, many leave and go back to heterosexual lifestyles, some don't.

The main problem was that there doesn't seem to be much more than anecdotal evidence, plus the question of whether homosexual impulses were always there and simply accepted after the prison experience or whether there was real change. We have all heard the stories of people who get married and raise families living a heterosexual lifestyle and were gay all along. Given the high levels of gay discrimination that still remains in our culture that is hardly a surprise that people would feel significant pressure to lie even to themselves. 

Plus the entire definition of "gay". I think it is perfectly possible for a person to enjoy acts of gay sex and not really be gay. IOW, they enjoy the act but are not generally attracted to members of the same sex and don't form romantic relationships with them- they basically view their sex partner as a living sex toy for personal gratification. 

But for the most part I agree with you, whether it could be done or not, trying to psychological force yourself (or forced by someone else) to change your sexual orientation risks significant psychological problems and is not a good idea.  

 

Everyone is talking as if sexual preferences are either-or and they aren't.  They are a continuum.  They aren't even tri - hetero, bi, homo - but instead are sort of leaning mostly one way or another with a lot of overlap.  Granted some people are at the ends or directly in the middle.  The rest of us are all over the place.  Figuratively.  Sometimes literally -

 

Sounds like party time.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj wrote:Everyone is talking

cj wrote:


Everyone is talking as if sexual preferences are either-or and they aren't.  They are a continuum.  They aren't even tri - hetero, bi, homo - but instead are sort of leaning mostly one way or another with a lot of overlap.  Granted some people are at the ends or directly in the middle.  The rest of us are all over the place.  Figuratively.  Sometimes literally -

 

Sounds like party time.

 

I know that I am probably revealing my ignorance and under-education here, but I am not exactly sure what you mean ? Could you please explain that where us biker trash on here can understand that a little bit better ? Smiling

When you say a sexual preference is a continuum which is not bi/hetero/homo what exactly does do you mean ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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 I believe cj is alluding

 I believe cj is alluding to the Kinsey scale.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

 

 


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GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

 I believe cj is alluding to the Kinsey scale.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

 

 

Interesting. I had never heard of that before.

But, I have never had any homosexual experiences or tendencies, not just typing macho-bullshit, it's just true.

If I HAD had homosexual thoughts, I wouldn't hesitate to admit to it.

I guess that makes me a zero on that scale, unless I am missing something.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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harleysportster wrote:

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

 I believe cj is alluding to the Kinsey scale.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

Interesting. I had never heard of that before.

But, I have never had any homosexual experiences or tendencies, not just typing macho-bullshit, it's just true.

If I HAD had homosexual thoughts, I wouldn't hesitate to admit to it.

I guess that makes me a zero on that scale, unless I am missing something.

 

Yes, I am alluding to the Kinsey scale.  Whether it is bs or not, I haven't researched extensively, nor do I have a firm opinion.

What is important, I think, is to realize that because you (or anyone else) feels a particular way right now, does not mean you may not feel differently in the future.  Nor does it mean that everyone else feels the same way you do.

The guy who is a "trade" is not homosexual - nor is he necessarily bi.  I know it sounds weird to most of you - it certainly sounds weird to me.  I can sort of see how Roman Catholics would be a common group.  After all, it is not using another man as a woman, nor is it adultery - so therefore, you wouldn't have to confess a sin, would you?  Maybe that isn't it at all, but I'm not interested in asking a bunch of guys who "trade" to find out for certain.

Whatever floats your boat. 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj wrote: Yes, I am

cj wrote:

 

Yes, I am alluding to the Kinsey scale.  Whether it is bs or not, I haven't researched extensively, nor do I have a firm opinion.

What is important, I think, is to realize that because you (or anyone else) feels a particular way right now, does not mean you may not feel differently in the future.  Nor does it mean that everyone else feels the same way you do.

 

I see what your getting at. Makes sense. But I do not know what my opinion might be on that. I'd have to know a little more about it first.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
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Anonymouse

Anonymouse wrote:

digitalbeachbum wrote:

No I disagree.

If I had a hot chick in the locked up in the room with me, I would never rape her. I might have sex with her eventually if she was consensual.

 

 

If someone ,who knew what he was doing, messed with your brain chemistry enough, for long enough, you would do it, I would do it, everyone would do it. 

And that's precisely the reason why it would be pointless, and why it wouldn't mean a damn thing. 

I disagree.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:I

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

I believe cj is alluding to the Kinsey scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

Kinsey was amazing. A true scientist... with baggage.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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 I agree with cj, which was

 I agree with cj, which was the point I attempted to make but probably not very well when I said that a person might engage in sexual relations with a person of the same sex but not really be gay. When I think "gay" I think of a person who is committed to being in relationships with a person of the same gender, not a person who has passing sexual encounters or is perhaps interested in shemales. 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


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This wasn't mentioned in the

This wasn't mentioned in the article , but it looks like they got their way :

http://www.skynews.com.au/world/article.aspx?id=823107

 

This judge figures the link between depression, suicide and this "therapy" is based on "'questionable and scientifically incomplete studies".

The therapy itself being questionable, to say the least, not scientific at all, and complete and utter nonsense, is of course no problem. 

I guess we can risk a few more dead gay kids on the chance that this "therapy" is only useless instead of harmful. 

 

Fuck this. I'm done with people for a while. 

 


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Anonymouse wrote:This wasn't

Anonymouse wrote:

This wasn't mentioned in the article , but it looks like they got their way :

http://www.skynews.com.au/world/article.aspx?id=823107

 

This judge figures the link between depression, suicide and this "therapy" is based on "'questionable and scientifically incomplete studies".

The therapy itself being questionable, to say the least, not scientific at all, and complete and utter nonsense, is of course no problem. 

I guess we can risk a few more dead gay kids on the chance that this "therapy" is only useless instead of harmful. 

 

Fuck this. I'm done with people for a while. 

 

 

There is always the possibility of an appeal.  And there is always the possibility of new studies being published.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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digitalbeachbum
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Anonymouse wrote:This wasn't

Anonymouse wrote:

This wasn't mentioned in the article , but it looks like they got their way :

http://www.skynews.com.au/world/article.aspx?id=823107

 

This judge figures the link between depression, suicide and this "therapy" is based on "'questionable and scientifically incomplete studies".

The therapy itself being questionable, to say the least, not scientific at all, and complete and utter nonsense, is of course no problem. 

I guess we can risk a few more dead gay kids on the chance that this "therapy" is only useless instead of harmful. 

 

Fuck this. I'm done with people for a while. 

 

The judge is biased. He should be removed from the bench.

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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digitalbeachbum wrote:The

digitalbeachbum wrote:

The judge is biased. He should be removed from the bench.

 

 

Supreme court has his back.

 

Justice" Scalia wrote:

If we cannot have moral feelings against homosexuality, can we have it against murder?

 

 

I don't even know what to say anymore.

 


 

 

 

 


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cj wrote: There is always

cj wrote:


 

There is always the possibility of an appeal.  And there is always the possibility of new studies being published.

 

 

You're being supportive, I know, and I appreciate that, but new studies will have the same evidence and the same conclusions. They simply lost this because they were up against the usual scumbags : All those christian "family" organizations who throw money at anti-gay "experts who'll say anything for rent-boy money. 

No, if you're an outed gay kid in america, and your parents don't support you, and would go as far as to hire an after-school bully for you, then you're basically in hell. Nobody's going to help you. I mean, even the people who are supposed to be on your side can only come up with  "It get's better", in other words, "Fuck you, you're on your own". 

 

Seriously, fuck this. I'm going to punch a wall for a few weeks. See you guys in the new year.