Jesus fact or fiction?

Mintyfell
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Jesus fact or fiction?

 I was reading another thread and it seems that a lot of atheists do not believe that Jesus existed. I find that kind of unreasonable. I am not a christian or a religion fanatic. I find that the bible is historically accurate in some instances. It is hard for me to believe that Jesus did not exist. There seems to be substantial evidence supporting his existence and the existence of people that are mentioned in the new testament of the bible. The history of the early church is very fascinating and factual.... obviously the church had to come from somewhere. What are your thoughts? Did Jesus exist or not? I'm posting in irrationalities because this isn't a question of god/ no god. I think it is irrational to claim that a man named Jesus did not exist, because the church had to spring up from somewhere. And I'm not claiming that Jesus was God or any of that. But, to me his claims of divinity are valid just not in a christian sense. As a "pantheist" I believe that we are all a part of the whole. Just little shreds of stardust hurdling through space and conscious of it... I mean that is some serious shit. Or maybe some not so serious shit... In the beginning a star farted. And there was much gas. And it was good.

 

The Spoob King


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Guys named Jesus existed. 

Guys named Jesus existed.  It was a common name.

I'm sure a bunch of them lived around the Sea of Galilee.

I'm sure there were a few that claimed to be the Messiah.

The Son of God - not bloody likely.

As a pantheist, why do you rename the universe "God" when "universe" is already a good name?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote: As a

jcgadfly wrote:

 

As a pantheist, why do you rename the universe "God" when "universe" is already a good name?

Not being subscribed to pantheism in a strict sense I don't think the question applies. If I say something like "Thank god! it's fucking raining!" I am simply giving thanks and appreciation to the universe for being the way that it is at that exact moment in time. But of course the universe can never be any way different at any given moment than it is... at that moment... If that makes any sense.


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Mintyfell wrote:jcgadfly

Mintyfell wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

As a pantheist, why do you rename the universe "God" when "universe" is already a good name?

Not being subscribed to pantheism in a strict sense I don't think the question applies. If I say something like "Thank god! it's fucking raining!" I am simply giving thanks and appreciation to the universe for being the way that it is at that exact moment in time. But of course the universe can never be any way different at any given moment than it is... at that moment... If that makes any sense.

Which brings you back to my question - why call the universe "god" when it already has a perfectly acceptable name and doesn't need to be deified?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote: Which

jcgadfly wrote:

 

Which brings you back to my question - why call the universe "god" when it already has a perfectly acceptable name and doesn't need to be deified?

 

Why not call it god? 

I choose to because I prefer it. 


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Mintyfell wrote:Why not call

Mintyfell wrote:

Why not call it god? 

I choose to because I prefer it. 

Yeah, but why do you prefer it ? 

I mean, if it's just a question of why not, then why not call the universe "Bob" ?

 

Not making fun, just wondering.


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Anonymouse wrote:Mintyfell

Anonymouse wrote:

Mintyfell wrote:

Why not call it god? 

I choose to because I prefer it. 

Yeah, but why do you prefer it ? 

I mean, if it's just a question of why not, then why not call the universe "Bob" ?

 

Not making fun, just wondering.

Do you think the universe cares what you call it? Can it care? This does not have anything to do with my original post Smiling Let me say that I am somewhat of a spiritual person. I find the meaning of life to be obvious. And I have absolutely no fear of death. I don't believe in heaven or hell. But I do believe in cause and effect. 

God= spirit or power or force that is in Everything, and is Everything. Both seen and unseen. Felt and unfelt. The Everything or the universe. I prefer Everything. God=Everything. Does this answer your question? 


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Mintyfell wrote: I was

Mintyfell wrote:

 I was reading another thread and it seems that a lot of atheists do not believe that Jesus existed. I find that kind of unreasonable. I am not a christian or a religion fanatic. I find that the bible is historically accurate in some instances. It is hard for me to believe that Jesus did not exist. There seems to be substantial evidence supporting his existence and the existence of people that are mentioned in the new testament of the bible. The history of the early church is very fascinating and factual.... obviously the church had to come from somewhere. What are your thoughts? Did Jesus exist or not? I'm posting in irrationalities because this isn't a question of god/ no god. I think it is irrational to claim that a man named Jesus did not exist, because the church had to spring up from somewhere. And I'm not claiming that Jesus was God or any of that. But, to me his claims of divinity are valid just not in a christian sense. As a "pantheist" I believe that we are all a part of the whole. Just little shreds of stardust hurdling through space and conscious of it... I mean that is some serious shit. Or maybe some not so serious shit... In the beginning a star farted. And there was much gas. And it was good.

 

The Spoob King

 

 

                          This topic and question have come up before on this site, I will answer in the same manner.  Jesus christ   IS NOT a name; it  IS a title, a rank, it means "gods' savior; annointed' .  The Jewish mystics of the first century BCE to the  first century CE, would not [like modern devout Jews] call their god by a proper name;  it would be sacroligious! The Mystics didn't think of their savior as a real person; he was only the poetic vision of what they desired.  Saul of Tarsus was in the process of persicuting this cult when he had an epileptic seizure on his road to Damascus and woke up joining the cult. Proof positive that you need brain damage to be a christian.     When later writers needed to fill out the story of the savior they borrowed heavily from other religious traditions,   Lord Mithras of the Zaorastrian [Persian] religion was a main source.    Mithras was born on Dec.25.  he had 12 followers, he drank wine whenever possible, he died just before the Spring furtility rites,   but arose 3 days later, just in time for Easter! The season of rebirth,   All of this in 600 BCE. Julius Caeser wrote about the Religious Judeans who lived in his mothers apartment building who [to avoid trubble with Roman religious poice] went around the corner to Vatican Hill to make an offering to Mithras at his MAIN Temple located there. In the fourth century CE the temple of the Mithras cult became the church of the Jesus cult by way of Emporer Constantines mother Helen and IT IS still on the/at the Vatican.   Jesus  is no more real then Santa clause of Cinderella. Sorry spoob.

 

 

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

 

 

                          This topic and question have come up before on this site, I will answer in the same manner.  Jesus christ   IS NOT a name; it  IS a title, a rank, it means "gods' savior; annointed' .  The Jewish mystics of the first century BCE to the  first century CE, would not [like modern devout Jews] call their god by a proper name;  it would be sacroligious! The Mystics didn't think of their savior as a real person; he was only the poetic vision of what they desired.  Saul of Tarsus was in the process of persicuting this cult when he had an epileptic seizure on his road to Damascus and woke up joining the cult. Proof positive that you need brain damage to be a christian.     When later writers needed to fill out the story of the savior they borrowed heavily from other religious traditions,   Lord Mithras of the Zaorastrian [Persian] religion was a main source.    Mithras was born on Dec.25.  he had 12 followers, he drank wine whenever possible, he died just before the Spring furtility rites,   but arose 3 days later, just in time for Easter! The season of rebirth,   All of this in 600 BCE. Julius Caeser wrote about the Religious Judeans who lived in his mothers apartment building who [to avoid trubble with Roman religious poice] went around the corner to Vatican Hill to make an offering to Mithras at his MAIN Temple located there. In the fourth century CE the temple of the Mithras cult became the church of the Jesus cult by way of Emporer Constantines mother Helen and IT IS still on the/at the Vatican.   Jesus  is no more real then Santa clause of Cinderella. Sorry spoob.

 

 

 

 

That sounds like a conspiracy theory. I have never heard/read anything about any of that. Can you point me in the direction of sources or books for this information? Sounds interesting.


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Mintyfell........

                    ............for starters try these:                                               http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSm7YPMQOSo                                   http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html                                   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manes                                  Or Jesus fact or fiction at wikipaedia,   Jesus vs. Mithras,  the Magi vs. belt  of Orion.  

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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Mintyfell wrote: That

Mintyfell wrote:

 

That sounds like a conspiracy theory. I have never heard/read anything about any of that. Can you point me in the direction of sources or books for this information? Sounds interesting.

Closest thing that I have ever heard of that would sound like conspiracy theory nonsense, was in those Zeitgeist films. Those were grossly inaccurate and way off base.

However, there is some evidence towards the fact that the Jesus Christ character was simply an amalgamation of various teachers and myths of the time.

I will also point out that the Jesus that I grew up with in the Bible, never seemed like such a nice guy to me, he was an meglomaniacal petty little tyrant that demanded his followers leave their families and follow him :

 

 

-"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that
loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not
his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

 Or this part right here :

Matthew
10:34.
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
35 "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law';36 "and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.  Whether there was a Jesus Christ or not is actually not a question that I have investigated too heavily. Once I walked away from the strict, indoctrinated religion that I was born and raised with, I pretty much rejected religion and all of it's teachings. There are Jesus Mythicist on here that may be far more informed than I, but I personally do not think he existed.

 

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Mintyfell wrote:Do you think

Mintyfell wrote:
Do you think the universe cares what you call it? Can it care?

It's not the universe asking. It's me. And like I said, just wondering. 

Mintyfell wrote:
This does not have anything to do with my original post

 

Yeah, sorry. Not much interested in old Yeshua, so I'll leave you guys to it.

Much more intrigued by people who insert vague terms like "spirituality" all over the place, so I thought I'd ask. 

 

Mintyfell wrote:
God= spirit or power or force that is in Everything, and is Everything. Both seen and unseen. Felt and unfelt. The Everything or the universe. I prefer Everything. God=Everything. Does this answer your question?
 

No. Just seems unnecessarily complicated and vague. Guess I'll have to phrase my question differently. Not in this thread, though. Carry on. Smiling


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Jesus as per the bible and

Jesus as per the bible and the jesus which many christian sects believe in (which tend to be different characters) never existed. In many cases the character of jesus in the bible seems to be different people, which isn't really isn't that far fetched since many messiahs were claimed during that era and it is possible that the character of jesus is an amalgamation of various people. But no, jesus of the bible as is never existed.


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latincanuck wrote:Jesus as

latincanuck wrote:

Jesus as per the bible and the jesus which many christian sects believe in (which tend to be different characters) never existed. In many cases the character of jesus in the bible seems to be different people, which isn't really isn't that far fetched since many messiahs were claimed during that era and it is possible that the character of jesus is an amalgamation of various people. But no, jesus of the bible as is never existed.

 

thats it in a nutshell. Even if its proven that one of these self proclaimed messiahs was named Yeshua, it doesn't change anything. It's exactly how Abraham Lincoln is real, but it doesn't mean that he hunted vampires. 

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.


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Mintyfell wrote:jcgadfly

Mintyfell wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

Which brings you back to my question - why call the universe "god" when it already has a perfectly acceptable name and doesn't need to be deified?

 

Why not call it god? 

I choose to because I prefer it. 

Now for the second half of the question - why deify and worship the universe? If the universe doesn't care what you name it, it certainly doesn't care about your worship of it.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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The Pauline letters

While it is clear that the myth is a plagerized version of other myths. On the subject of histrocity. Paul becomes a bit problematic for me. If Paul is an established historical contemporary of Jesus,we can regard his account as a first person historical document of the times. Wether Paul fictionalized his story is another matter. I often hear the argument that Paul only wrote of Christ as a spiritual concept and not as a historical figure or event. But he does mention James and John as "brothers of Christ" and also one or two apostles (Peter I believe). It's been a long time since I really looked at this stuff so forgive the memory lapses. My question is how do mythologists reconcile the mention of these characters with the premise that Paul was not refering to a historical Jesus? Just something that has been a hard to reach itch in the back of my mind. Any help with this would be appreciated.
 

That there is one damn fine coat your'e wearing.


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Marv59 wrote:While it is

Marv59 wrote:

While it is clear that the myth is a plagerized version of other myths. On the subject of histrocity. Paul becomes a bit problematic for me. If Paul is an established historical contemporary of Jesus,we can regard his account as a first person historical document of the times. Wether Paul fictionalized his story is another matter. I often hear the argument that Paul only wrote of Christ as a spiritual concept and not as a historical figure or event. But he does mention James and John as "brothers of Christ" and also one or two apostles (Peter I believe). It's been a long time since I really looked at this stuff so forgive the memory lapses. My question is how do mythologists reconcile the mention of these characters with the premise that Paul was not refering to a historical Jesus? Just something that has been a hard to reach itch in the back of my mind. Any help with this would be appreciated.
 

Not sure if this helps.

Paul was aware of the Jesus movement (Jesus as Messiah). He was also aware of James, John and Peter as leaders of the movement.

I think that Paul may have started with the human teacher named Jesus - then he decided to create a son of God using Jesus as a base. This is where he got into trouble with James and the Jerusalem church (when Acts and the epistles mention being persecuted by "the Jews" they mean members of the Jerusalem church).

I think there was a teacher named Jesus - then Paul made the myth.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

                    ............for starters try these:                                               http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSm7YPMQOSo                                   http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html                                   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manes                                  Or Jesus fact or fiction at wikipaedia,   Jesus vs. Mithras,  the Magi vs. belt  of Orion.  

 

Very nice. Thank you, that is very compelling information. And fascinating. Thanks for the responses. 


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Mintyfell wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Which brings you back to my question - why call the universe "god" when it already has a perfectly acceptable name and doesn't need to be deified?

Why not call it god? 

I choose to because I prefer it. 

Why are you such a retarded neanderthal that that is the best response you can produce?

Do you post here to confirm the fact you are an idiot? We really do not give a rat's ass about you, what you think or believe or if your father's name is Mabel.

You ain't Jack shit and no one cares.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

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www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Jabberwocky wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Jesus as per the bible and the jesus which many christian sects believe in (which tend to be different characters) never existed. In many cases the character of jesus in the bible seems to be different people, which isn't really isn't that far fetched since many messiahs were claimed during that era and it is possible that the character of jesus is an amalgamation of various people. But no, jesus of the bible as is never existed.

 

thats it in a nutshell. Even if its proven that one of these self proclaimed messiahs was named Yeshua, it doesn't change anything. It's exactly how Abraham Lincoln is real, but it doesn't mean that he hunted vampires. 

Actually the zombie knockoff cost at most 5% as much but is at least half as good giving an object lesson in return on investement vice art.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Jabberwocky wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Jesus as per the bible and the jesus which many christian sects believe in (which tend to be different characters) never existed. In many cases the character of jesus in the bible seems to be different people, which isn't really isn't that far fetched since many messiahs were claimed during that era and it is possible that the character of jesus is an amalgamation of various people. But no, jesus of the bible as is never existed.

 

thats it in a nutshell. Even if its proven that one of these self proclaimed messiahs was named Yeshua, it doesn't change anything. It's exactly how Abraham Lincoln is real, but it doesn't mean that he hunted vampires. 

Actually the zombie knockoff cost at most 5% as much but is at least half as good giving an object lesson in return on investement vice art.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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jcgadfly wrote:

Not sure if this helps.

Paul was aware of the Jesus movement (Jesus as Messiah). He was also aware of James, John and Peter as leaders of the movement.

I think that Paul may have started with the human teacher named Jesus - then he decided to create a son of God using Jesus as a base. This is where he got into trouble with James and the Jerusalem church (when Acts and the epistles mention being persecuted by "the Jews" they mean members of the Jerusalem church).

I think there was a teacher named Jesus - then Paul made the myth.

There is an incredible amount of undefined BS on this subject as well as dozens of variations upon the same subject.

But let us get at least one thing straight, even IF he was aware of Jesus as Messiah what he might have understood by that did not approach what pre-protestant Roman Christianity meant by it until maybe 1200 AD. There is no Roman concept of Jesus Christus until the late Dark Ages -- which is when it starts going to shit because they were dumb enough to try to define what they were talking about. Aquinus caused the Reformation in that sense.

 

 

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Mintyfell

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Mintyfell wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Which brings you back to my question - why call the universe "god" when it already has a perfectly acceptable name and doesn't need to be deified?

Why not call it god? 

I choose to because I prefer it. 

Why are you such a retarded neanderthal that that is the best response you can produce?

Do you post here to confirm the fact you are an idiot? We really do not give a rat's ass about you, what you think or believe or if your father's name is Mabel.

You ain't Jack shit and no one cares.

Well aren't you just the cutest little thing. So when you say "we", I'm going to assume that you are referring to you and.... your cat? I like cats too. Or who exactly are you speaking for? 

 ""You ain't Jack shit and no one cares""???? Wow.... It'll be okay sir, just calm down and take a few deep breaths. I can feel hurt and frustration coming from your keystrokes. 

Remember to change the kitty litter everyday meow Eye-wink


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 Thank you for treating the

 Thank you for treating the boards as a collection of individuals, and noting that one member does not implicitly speak for anyone more than themselves.