You go first, how long will this continue.

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You go first, how long will this continue.

Once again the fighting has started up again in Palistine. You get pee shooter rockets, accusations that Hammas is using the population as human sheilds. You get Isreal over reacting. And death and continued fighting on both sides. When is the nation crap and religious crap and  politics going to stop?

Every decade since I was born in 66 this has been an issue. I am so sick of this shit and neither side is getting anywhere. Palistine has to give up on it's theocratic politics, and self police and get the violent people out of it's population. Isrial needs to give up on it's invasions and settlements.

It sickens me that people don't get tired of war and violence. How many humans on either side have to die before it becomes clear that it is futile? Neither side is gong anywhere. Humans are involved on both sides.

There was a time when someone could make a case that they were on the right side of history. But I do not see that. All I see is both sides playing victime lo9oking for excuses for more violence. I wish the international community would step in and settle this with peace keeping forces. Palistinians should not live in a prison, their every day civiliians should not be starved to death. But at the same time they also should not be held hostage by those in power.

Isreal needs to give up on a Jewish state and simply be a westerinized secular state. Palistinians need to purge their rulers of the theocrats and zealots. All labels aside flesh is flesh and death is death and this has been going on for far too long and has affected the entire global community for fart too long.

I am tired of the excuses. Both sides are baging their heads against the wall and getting nowhere simply pissing the other side off more. Is a boarder or a tradition or label so important as to fail to realize that in the end when someone dies on either side, you are STILL killing another human being.

 

We are mpt ;;ovomg om any nobal age of conquest anymore. The world is round, not flat. What you do Palistinians to Isreal has an affect on the world. What you do Isreal to Palistinians has an affect on the world. The selfishness and war sickens me because it seems to be nothing more than a cry for attention trying to get the rest of the world to side with one side.

 

PLEASE FUCKING STOP! You are just two groups of people on a populated planet of 7 billion. Please tell me what right either of you have to turn our planet into your childish game of capture the flag. It is my hope that the international commun9ity instead of chosing sides, SHAMES both sides int o cooperations.

 

There has been no end to this shit and I am beyond caring at this point as an outsider who has no horse in the race. This all stems from evolution and nothing more. We side as humans with that which we are familure with and defend it from outside threats. The problem is that there is an utter failure of the WORLD, not just both sides, BUT THE WORLD, to put enough pressure on both sides.

 

ENOUGH! What right does either side after all this and no end in sight have to cry "poor me". Reea;;y? You'd both take a scorched earth policy and drag the region and possibly the entire world int a war over what?

 

There should be no two state solution. I am at the point where I think both of you need to have your asses kicked, your leaders arrested and repl,aced with sane secular leaders.

 

Regardless of which side I lean to, I am not going to take sides when clearly both sides are ussing the same stupid tactics that simply perpetuate this needless conflict.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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cj wrote:Lee2216 wrote:cj

cj wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

cj wrote:
Seriously, Lee.  I get that you believe the holy spirit is talking to you through the bible.  But to me it sounds like talking to yourself.  Can you tell me how you are certain sure it isn't just you talking to you?  Have you had any original thoughts not your own?  Any confirming evidence other than "it feels like the holy spirit so it must be?"

If the holy spirit is immaterial, how do you know that it isn't your inner voice?  What is the difference between the two?  Is it just the words you read?  But the words are not original, they are printed in the bible.  So the holy spirit isn't speaking, you are just reading.

I'm just trying to understand your process for differentiating immaterial holy spirit from your own inner voice.

Yes the holy spirit is speaking to me through God's word the bible. If it were me talking to myself why would I need the bible? Never once did I say that it feels like the holy spirit in fact I warned that we can't go by our feelings (Jeremiah 17:9) I know it's not my inner voice because I'm reading God's very words. The original autographs were written under the inspiration of the holy spirit (2 Peter 3:16-17)(2 Peter 1:20-21) and the copies we have are 99% accurate. But words have a meaning and truth to them that convey a message and the holy spirit speaks through the message. 

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.(Hebrews 4:12)

 

I'm sorry, but you still have not explained how you know that this is the holy spirit speaking to you through the bible.  What is it about the message that tells you it is the holy spirit? 

And isn't this knowing a feeling?  How can knowing not be a feeling?  So you can not rely on your feeling that this is the holy spirit, there must be some other evidence so that you "know." 

As for accuracy, the bible is no more accurate than any other collection of writings from the late bronze age/early iron age historical period.  It was written by pastoralists (nomadic herders) and early agriculturalists.  The history enumerated in the bible is not borne out by archaeological evidence.  So while it says some interesting things, it is unreasonable to expect it to be accurate in our modern sense of accuracy.

Reading it, meditating on the words, will likely give you a sense of peace and contentment.  But this is no more likely than any other person of another religion reading their holy book.  So how is yours any better than those books that give other people the same meditative peaceful feeling?

 

The answers are in the scriptures that I've been giving you. You refuse to believe. Knowledge is not a feeling. Evidence of creation has clearly been seen by all so that nobody is without excuse. The bible is the most accurate book ever written and archaeological evidence supports the bible 100%.

I have peace and contentment because I have a gracious and merciful God who has forgiven me of my sins past present future. Repent and believe and His mercy and grace will be showered upon you as well. The bible is the only book that has a savior that shed His blood and fully satisfied God's wrath as a propitiation for my sins. He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:The law of

Lee2216 wrote:

The law of Moses consists of the entire 613 commandments given to Moses in the OT. In these 613 commandments there where 3 categories of law. Ceremonial, moral and civil.

How do you know which ones are which?  Does the Bible actually specify?

 


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Beyond Saving wrote: Lee2216

Beyond Saving wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

There is no need to define it. It's written on our hearts. 

For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:12-16)

That isn't very objective, in fact it is completely subjective. Are you saying that if I feel guilty about it, it is murder and if I don't feel guilty it isn't?

There are plenty of people I could kill without feeling guilty about that society would consider murder, for example, I met a complete douche who beats his girlfriend regularly, cops get called, she forgives him and gets back together. I could go over there and put a bullet between his eyes and probably feel quite good about it, I doubt I would have the slightest tinge of guilt- in fact my heart would be overjoyed. Society would rightfully call it murder and throw me in jail for a long, long time. 

While when I was a soldier I faced the reality that I could be put in a situation where I have to kill some other 18 year old who was a perfectly good person that if I had met in some other situation I could have been friends with. After significant thought my assessment was that I could kill him but most likely would have feelings of guilt that I figured I could work through. (given my particular position in the military the goal was that I would in a position where I was the aggressor and hopefully not be seen before the target was killed so I wouldn't have had the luxury of pretending it was self defense.)

So tell me, in God's eyes would the first situation not be murder and the second situation murder? Because using common human law the first situation would be murder and the second not. I'll take your word as the word of god since apparently my heart is so cold and dead that I would lie to save lives so he apparently won't talk to me. I will have to rely on his message through you.  

First off, I would like to thank you for serving our country. The first case would be murder and the second case would be killing if you were put in a situation of self defense. I don't know about you but I would feel guilty in either case. Taking another life in any case is awful. The truth according to scriptures is that we're all murderers in our heart when we get angry with someone for no reason. 

 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. (Matthew 5:21-22)

 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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blacklight915 wrote:Lee2216

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

The law of Moses consists of the entire 613 commandments given to Moses in the OT. In these 613 commandments there where 3 categories of law. Ceremonial, moral and civil.

How do you know which ones are which?  Does the Bible actually specify?

 

Yes it does specify according to context.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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cj wrote: Lee2216 wrote:

cj wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

There is no need to define it. It's written on our hearts. 

 

Well, not everyone's heart.  I refer you to recent neurological studies that show that people who have psycho-social or borderline personalities disorders do not have the brain structures to feel empathy for another person.  It is postulated that narcissistic personalities also have this problem, but that has not yet been documented via fMRI scans. 

For a brief overview of the science, see

Baron-Cohen, Simon. The Science of Evil: On Empathy and the Origins of Cruelty

http://www.amazon.com/The-Science-Evil-Empathy-Origins/dp/0465031420/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1355169951&sr=8-1&keywords=cohen%2C+si...

It was available through interlibrary loan, so I didn't have to buy it to read it.  I don't expect you will read it, but I will be pleasantly surprised if you do.

Given your responses to other Beyond's hypothetical moral situations, I would have to ask you:

You know that you can just ask for forgiveness for any sin, including sex with other men or murder, and you will be forgiven.  So how is a small lie that saves another person's life so heinous?  Just ask for forgiveness as you sneak the person out of danger.  If the great good does not outweigh the small sin, then I want no part of your religion.  That is not at all moral and I could not worship any god who advocated punishment under those circumstances.

 

Even though they may not be able to feel empathy they still know it's wrong to murder. What you reap you shall sow. Yes we can ask for forgiveness but the bible also says we are not to go on sinning willfully either (Hebrews 10:26-27) We all deserve punishment because we are all evil. And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. (Mark 10:18) 

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:Yes it does

Lee2216 wrote:

Yes it does specify according to context.

That sounds kinda vague...  Could you give some examples?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

Wow...not even during my WORST period of depression, did I ever have THAT bad an opinion of myself...

Not only that, you have the same horrific opinion of EVERY PERSON EVER (unless Jesus counts as a person)

 


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I am so glad . . .

Lee2216 wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

The law of Moses consists of the entire 613 commandments given to Moses in the OT. In these 613 commandments there where 3 categories of law. Ceremonial, moral and civil.

How do you know which ones are which?  Does the Bible actually specify?

 

Yes it does specify according to context.

  I am so glad to say yes I fully agree with you on this point Lee Smiling There are people on the board that have actually looked over texts and some who were merely exposed to them at one point or another. But, The board consists of individuals and as such there are many different experiences represented here (a word to the wise).

 


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Lee2216 wrote:The answers

Lee2216 wrote:

The answers are in the scriptures that I've been giving you. You refuse to believe. Knowledge is not a feeling. Evidence of creation has clearly been seen by all so that nobody is without excuse. The bible is the most accurate book ever written and archaeological evidence supports the bible 100%.

I have peace and contentment because I have a gracious and merciful God who has forgiven me of my sins past present future. Repent and believe and His mercy and grace will be showered upon you as well. The bible is the only book that has a savior that shed His blood and fully satisfied God's wrath as a propitiation for my sins. He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

 

Knowing that you know is a feeling.  I would believe if there were evidence to believe in the holy spirit.  But you have given me no evidence of the holy spirit, only verses from your bible.  This is circular reasoning - you believe the bible because it tells you to believe.

An example of inaccuracy in the bible vis a vis archaeology, the pyramids were NOT built by slaves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4L6A-lBPyk

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/videos/builders-of-the-pyramids/

How do you know you are saved?  You believe you are saved, that much is obvious.  But how do you know?  What evidence do you have?  A feeling? 

 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Lee2216 wrote:Yes I endorse

Lee2216 wrote:

Yes I endorse God's moral laws as the right ones. It does gel with what I said before. I don't believe women should be stoned because that law only applied to the Israelites of that time and was a civil law NOT a moral law. Those civil laws don't apply to any nation today. In that situation I would tell the truth to the soldiers. Would I be responsible for that persons death? No the soldiers are responsible. It would be better for that person to be killed rather than be tortured and experimented on for who knows how long. I don't follow your logic at all. If I knew that someone was planning on committing a murder I would call the authorities I wouldn't steal their guns.

First god's morals don't change and now they do ? Which is it ? Inconsistency is the first sign of faulty logic.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Lee2216 wrote:Even though

Lee2216 wrote:

Even though they may not be able to feel empathy they still know it's wrong to murder. What you reap you shall sow. Yes we can ask for forgiveness but the bible also says we are not to go on sinning willfully either (Hebrews 10:26-27) We all deserve punishment because we are all evil. And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. (Mark 10:18) 

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5)

 

Ted Bundy wrote an autobiography.  You might want to read it sometime - he didn't feel guilt, didn't believe all the murders he did were wrong.  Though he cared about getting caught.

And you know, my heart is not full of evil - I'm too old to mess around like that.  I don't drink - I can't afford it and my doctor would have conniptions.  I buy a lottery ticket every once in a while, but I would hardly call that gambling.  I have a tendency to swear, but so what?  I don't smoke, never have.  I don't steal - not even pens from the office.  I don't lie - though I would if it would save someone's life.  I love and am faithful to my husband of 27+ years.  I love my sons who are all adults now. 

If your god/s/dess is going to send me to hell because I won't kiss his/her/its/their ass - so be it.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Lee2216 wrote: The answers

Lee2216 wrote:

 

The answers are in the scriptures that I've been giving you. You refuse to believe. Knowledge is not a feeling. Evidence of creation has clearly been seen by all so that nobody is without excuse. The bible is the most accurate book ever written and archaeological evidence supports the bible 100%.

What evidence of creation ? Oh, you mean the Big Bang ? Evolution ? Abiogenesis ? What evidence of creation are you talking about ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Lee2216 wrote: The bible is

Lee2216 wrote:

 The bible is the only book that has a savior that shed His blood and fully satisfied God's wrath as a propitiation for my sins. He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

So let me get this straight. God created people, so that they would violate all of his laws, then deserve hell by the violation and only be able to receive heaven through him. Rather odd.

Kinda like abusing your children because they were evil enough to be born, then telling them that they deserve to be abused for being born, THEN telling them that the only way to get out of the abuse is to turn to you. That makes absolutely no logical, reasonable or sane sense.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Trying to understand how he feels that way

 Re :: Trying to understand how he feels that way

  (Trying to understand how he feels that way)

 Lee has be relatively interactive and very patient with the board thus far and overall that has become rare these days (Twd39; JesusLovesYou, needn't be mentioned).

 

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

 

Wow...not even during my WORST period of depression, did I ever have THAT bad an opinion of myself...

 

  It is part of my make-up and personality is to want to understand (as you might have guessed). I think Lee can sincerely feel this way because of statements like this one:

 

 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

     Adultery from someone who had actually committed it (below):

 

  Suggested in an example of  sin in a life that started with a lust problem but didnt stop there (over-the-top sinful SINNING): 

  You remember the detailed in 2 Samuel chapters eleven and twelve. The narrative describes the king’s lusty liaison with the first gazed on nude Bathsheba. When it was the time when he (the King) was supposed to be doing other things (it starts out). This adulterous union that ensues from making inquiries about the nude woman. Later we find it resulted in the conception of a child, (remember the one who didnt become king later on) and led the king to arrange for the murder of his paramour’s husband (she already had one). Btw, Recall David already had multiple wives by this time. Mel Brooks and his typically off-colored remark about "It's good to be King" (if you remember the film I needn't say more).  It gets even worse with him ensuring the gal's husband was killed while waring. Not dissimilar than placing a 'hit' on him. **Can you see what I mean about after people wont commit these transgressions in whole of their lives ** This did not go unnoticed, Severe judgments were leveled against the house of David, and affected him very personally, for these transgressions (according to the account).

 

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’

  Fall-out 

     As one of the many examples was a direct judgement (according to the passage in the text) was the punishment levied against his own  child, the child illegitimately conceived with another man's wife on David's part was not to live. When the infant was finally born to Bathsheba, David being the character he was, hoped to influence events, on behalf of the the sickly and feeble little baby. The king prayed and fasted, but the baby lived only a week (I havent read all of it). When the 'then' remorseful ruler learned of the illegitimate child’s death, he arose from the earth, cleaned himself up, broke his fast and went to worship in the house of Yahweh. This is from the man you was credited with the phrase "Though he slay me, yet will I just him", I include for context, according to the tradition. Their were a series of events that David attributed to this and many admitted consequences to all of it, I gather. Later on, "Tamar’s half-brother, Amnon, was quite taken with his sister. He lusted for her, and when she would not yield, he raped the girl (2 Samuel 13:14). I thinking their some lust issues in the family. Tamar’s full-brother, Absalom, learned of the horrible deed and was outraged. Doubtless his father to avenge the wicked act. But David did nothing—perhaps due to his own weakness in the area of fleshly desire. At this point I am not liking any of this!! But Absalom would not be denied justice. And so, at the end of two years, seething all the while, he laid a plot and had Amnon killed (2 Samuel 13:28-29). What disgrace! What heartache in the house of David.As a result of this assassination, Absalom was forced to flee beyond the Jordan for asylum. Three years he was in exile, “and David mourned for his son every day” (2 Samuel 13:37). Finally, Absalom was allowed to return to Jerusalem; but even then, he was not permitted into his father’s presence for two years more (2 Samuel 14:28).From the outset of his return, the ungrateful lad began to make plans to wrest his father’s throne from him. But kingdoms are not toppled overnight, and so the rebel son stealthily “stole the hearts of the men of Israel” (2 Samuel 15:6). There is more than one kind of thief in the world!When the time was right, Absalom, with a strong military force, declared himself to be the new king. David fled from the capitol city, weeping as he climbed the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem (2 Samuel 15:30)" David was forced to flee from his own son. Anyhow. After it all shakes out  Absalom is one day killed. And even then, the grief stricken father was to have memorably said upon hearing the news: "O my son Absalom, my son, my son Absalom! Would I had died instead of you ...

  Link .. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absalom

 

 


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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
To quote you, "Way to take it out of context".

The woman caught in adultery was not in violation of a civil law but a law of Moses.

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” (John 8:3-5)

She violated one of the Ten Commandments - are you saying that those are just "civil laws" that "only applied to the Israelites of the time". Is that why you violate the 9th so easily?

The reason why the punishment doesn't apply today human morals are better than your God's.

Still too easy - are you going to start trying soon?

Jc, your are being exposed. The law of Moses consists of the entire 613 commandments given to Moses in the OT. In these 613 commandments there where 3 categories of law. Ceremonial, moral and civil. She broke the moral law which resulted in stoning which was civil law. The moral law still exists to this day but the civil laws don't.

And adultery was part of the first 10 supposedly written by the finger of your God - looks like you are exposing yourself as someone who actually hasn't bothered to read the Bible.

Did you really just relegate a commandment of your God to mere human "moral law"? Could it be that you're acknowledging that mere humans wrote "God's Law"? You should - it would put you in accordance with the 9th commandment.

You disappoint me, Lee. when are you going to start trying?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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These things are plenty subjective

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Sure I did! Here it is one more time. God offers us an objective set of morals: do not lie, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not bear false witness, etc. These morals don’t change depending on your opinion, your situation, or your personal preferences. They are based on God’s character and since God doesn’t change, these morals don’t either. 

I live a nice life in Australia, I commit no crimes (apart from occasionally speeding on my motorbike), could not be bothered to lie. But if some one asked me if the house I live in was stolen from the aborigines, would I be lying if I said - no it was not - I own it legitimately? What about jewish settlers on the West Bank? Are they thieves? And are the palestinians lying when they say the jews have no place in palestine? When theists claim baselessly that atheists are immoral are they bearing false witness?

At some point in the near past, my ancestors all got married in the Celtic way. No doubt there were branches strewn around and flowers and the congregation knelt to the River God. Are you lying when you say these blameless folk were committing adultery? Was their idea of marriage any less than that of the violent culture that subsumed my own 18,000-year-old aboriginality? That continues to do so?

And human imagination being the broken instrument that it is, many witnesses invent memories that never happened. Were they lying, if they made a mistake? Were they bearing false witness? Did zombies really prowl the streets of jerusalem? Did Gadera's pigs fly?

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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 just a quick counselling

 just a quick counselling session here lee..  Please feel that you can take your time to answer the questions put to you here. You are outnumbered so the questions are piling up,  but we are patient folk and don't mind waiting for an answer from you. 

 Please do however try and answer our questions in roughly the same order that we asked them.   Thanks 

 


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Lee2216 wrote:First off, I

Lee2216 wrote:

First off, I would like to thank you for serving our country. The first case would be murder and the second case would be killing if you were put in a situation of self defense. I don't know about you but I would feel guilty in either case. Taking another life in any case is awful. The truth according to scriptures is that we're all murderers in our heart when we get angry with someone for no reason. 

 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. (Matthew 5:21-22)

 

But in the second case I am not in a situation of "self defense". However you construe it, as an American the fight is most likely in the foreigners homeland. And my MOS (mode of service) was recon. Which means my job was to infiltrate enemy lines and if any killing was involved it was done as quietly as possible. IOW, some poor SOB who was just pulling guard duty would get his throat slit or shot in the back of the head with a silenced weapon so I could recover whatever intel my mission required me to gather. If everything went as planned, no one would know I approached so no person could possibly be threatening me to the point where I could credibly claim self defense. I am clearly the aggressor, in HIS country, attacking him without his knowledge. I am nothing more than an assassin that has the blessing of the US government. Does the US government's decisions carry the weight of god?

Like I said, in my personal opinion, the asshole who beats his wife definitely deserves to die. My heart tells me that his death makes the world a better place to live. My heart also tells me that the poor sap who pulls guard duty the night I have to infiltrate the enemy camp and happens to be in my way is probably a decent person who is doing nothing more than what I am, protecting his country. While it makes nice movies to pretend otherwise, the reality is that the majority of the people we kill in our wars are not Osama Bin Laden that want every American dead. The majority of them are simply young men who need a way to support and feed their families and joining the military is a good way to make money. IOW, they are no different than me, they just happened to be born in a different country and I am killing them simply because of that fact and not because of any terrible deed they personally performed.

As a soldier you are killing a perfectly decent person simply for being born in the wrong country. And if you refuse to believe that you are simply deluding yourself (which many do). As a person who accepted that reality, the prospect that I might have to do so was a real moral crises for me and the decision that I was in fact capable of it was neither easy nor happy the day I realized I was capable of killing another human in cold blood.

Yet somehow, you justify that killing.... why? Because Bill Clinton said so? Because GW Bush said it was right? Because Obama said so? HOW do you differentiate between murder and killing? Yet you condemn the killing of an asshole that probably 90% of the world would agree that we would be better off without? All I knew is that I was able, and willing to point my gun and pull the trigger wherever my superiors said so without question, regardless of whether I personally believed the person in my sights deserved to die. 

From a subjective human standpoint, it is very clear. I cannot kill someone without consent of the government. And the government is more likely to consent to me killing someone who is not part of our society and anyone who is part of our society gets a special trial. It makes sense from a human level that those inside society get more consideration than those outside society.

From a god level, it makes no sense that one gets preference over the other. From a god level, I don't see how you can possibly differentiate between the two. Sure, someone who carries mass murders and terrorist attacks you can justify killing. But someone who is just serving as a guard? Or is the communications man? All those two are doing is living their lives and following gods commandment against lying (and in all probability follow gods laws much closer than I ever did as I have never had a monogamous relationship, drank since I was 14 and have never believed in god). Outside of the subjective human standpoint, I don't see how you can say they deserve to die at all. And this is coming from a man who agreed to kill them. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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danatemporary wrote: Re ::

danatemporary wrote:

 Re :: Trying to understand how he feels that way

  (Trying to understand how he feels that way)

 Lee has be relatively interactive and very patient with the board thus far and overall that has become rare these days (Twd39; JesusLovesYou, needn't be mentioned).

Just to emphasize Dana's point, I know I have been one of the people who has been fairly hard on Lee and I appreciate that Lee has stuck around and instead of whining about the opposition has been addressing people fairly consistently rather than simply ignoring people or whining about being outnumbered. I have no respect for Lee's moral code but I have to respect his tenacity and willingness to address pretty much everyone, even those of us who have thrown the occasional insult his way.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 I'd also like to mention

 I'd also like to mention at this point that my colourful response earlier in the thread was based upon the assumption that Lee did in fact support stoning adulterers. He has subsequently made clear his position on that (Which was that he was playing a Reductio ad absurdum position) - I should have withdrawn my previous statements earlier, but I got caught up in the following debates.

 

I do so now.

 

 


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I was reminded of witnessing a quicky wedding, I once came upon

 > I was reminded of witnessing a quicky wedding

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

At some point in the near past, my ancestors all got married in the Celtic way. No doubt there were branches strewn around and flowers and the congregation knelt to the River God. Are you lying when you say these blameless folk were committing adultery? Was their idea of marriage any less than that of the violent culture  . . .

 

EXC wrote:

Sapient wrote:

Marriage today is considered a formal legal agreement.  An agreement that governments have decided warrants some special privileges.

 EXC was quoted to have said, "Isn't that the problem in the first place. Why does anyone in our society get "special privileges"? Why do we discriminate against singles for the benefit of couples? What special privilege is there that should not be available to a single person? Why do single people have to subsidize the healthcare and taxes of couples and families? The government doesn't need to give anyone a magic piece of paper to anyone so they can feel they are married. If people want to have contracts for things like joint property, they can have separate legal agreements"

Government has turned into nothing more that a tool for sub-groups to have special rights and subsidies at the expense of the rest of society.

  

  I remember a while back where I had to get a copy of my birth-certificate. While doing so I both over heard and laided-'witness' to, the quickest formal union, between a man and woman, anybody could think of. Odd I have to write man and a woman now-a-days. I was only there inside the building for less than twenty minutes (in this awfully small space). From what I happened to hear in the couple's conversation; this couple both  decided to forego  the litany of almost any recognizable 'ceremony' and 'ritual' in their 'quicky-re-wedding'. And, I caught the tail end of the re-wedding, at the place where they were receiving their actual marriage license. In this country, if was very official all the same, despite the setting. I was reminded of the whole 'event' in something I was reading from the words of EXC, that he commented (IN THE QUOTE).

  WARNING "G"-Rating, it was legit with wedding rings and everything Smiling

 p.p.s. --  I cannot tell you exactly why but I had to-look-up:Harihara, the term. After which, I was reminded about Vishnu's exquisite (and ever beguiling) Mohini form, voluptuous(-ly)  curvaceous Mohini , whit¬woo. Steady!  The deity was to have used maya, in the  Bhagavata Purana's definition of term 'maya' (the art of creating illusions).

 


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Beyond Saving wrote:But in

Beyond Saving wrote:

But in the second case I am not in a situation of "self defense". However you construe it, as an American the fight is most likely in the foreigners homeland. And my MOS (mode of service) was recon. Which means my job was to infiltrate enemy lines and if any killing was involved it was done as quietly as possible. IOW, some poor SOB who was just pulling guard duty would get his throat slit or shot in the back of the head with a silenced weapon so I could recover whatever intel my mission required me to gather. If everything went as planned, no one would know I approached so no person could possibly be threatening me to the point where I could credibly claim self defense. I am clearly the aggressor, in HIS country, attacking him without his knowledge. I am nothing more than an assassin that has the blessing of the US government. Does the US government's decisions carry the weight of god?

Like I said, in my personal opinion, the asshole who beats his wife definitely deserves to die. My heart tells me that his death makes the world a better place to live. My heart also tells me that the poor sap who pulls guard duty the night I have to infiltrate the enemy camp and happens to be in my way is probably a decent person who is doing nothing more than what I am, protecting his country. While it makes nice movies to pretend otherwise, the reality is that the majority of the people we kill in our wars are not Osama Bin Laden that want every American dead. The majority of them are simply young men who need a way to support and feed their families and joining the military is a good way to make money. IOW, they are no different than me, they just happened to be born in a different country and I am killing them simply because of that fact and not because of any terrible deed they personally performed.

As a soldier you are killing a perfectly decent person simply for being born in the wrong country. And if you refuse to believe that you are simply deluding yourself (which many do). As a person who accepted that reality, the prospect that I might have to do so was a real moral crises for me and the decision that I was in fact capable of it was neither easy nor happy the day I realized I was capable of killing another human in cold blood.

Yet somehow, you justify that killing.... why? Because Bill Clinton said so? Because GW Bush said it was right? Because Obama said so? HOW do you differentiate between murder and killing? Yet you condemn the killing of an asshole that probably 90% of the world would agree that we would be better off without? All I knew is that I was able, and willing to point my gun and pull the trigger wherever my superiors said so without question, regardless of whether I personally believed the person in my sights deserved to die. 

From a subjective human standpoint, it is very clear. I cannot kill someone without consent of the government. And the government is more likely to consent to me killing someone who is not part of our society and anyone who is part of our society gets a special trial. It makes sense from a human level that those inside society get more consideration than those outside society.

From a god level, it makes no sense that one gets preference over the other. From a god level, I don't see how you can possibly differentiate between the two. Sure, someone who carries mass murders and terrorist attacks you can justify killing. But someone who is just serving as a guard? Or is the communications man? All those two are doing is living their lives and following gods commandment against lying (and in all probability follow gods laws much closer than I ever did as I have never had a monogamous relationship, drank since I was 14 and have never believed in god). Outside of the subjective human standpoint, I don't see how you can say they deserve to die at all. And this is coming from a man who agreed to kill them. 

That was very well stated and poignantly put Beyond.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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 I'm interested to hear how

 I'm interested to hear how you justified this with your libertarian ethic? Being the pawn of the government seems in direct contradiction to this. If you'd indulge me, I'd like to know whether you came to this viewpoint after your service, during, or did you consider yourself libertarian before joining?

 

 


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blacklight915 wrote: Lee2216

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Yes it does specify according to context.

That sounds kinda vague...  Could you give some examples?

1) The moral law is the 10 commandments

2) An example of a civil law is Deuteronomy 15:1 , "At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts."

3) Deuteronomy 16:13, which instructed the Israelites to "celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days after you have gathered the produce of your threshing floor and your winepress."

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

Wow...not even during my WORST period of depression, did I ever have THAT bad an opinion of myself...

Not only that, you have the same horrific opinion of EVERY PERSON EVER (unless Jesus counts as a person)

Have you ever taken anything that didn't belong to you? Even once? Have you ever looked at a woman with lust...just once? 

 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.(James 2:10)

We are all guilty and will be judged according to God's perfect standard not our own human fallible standard.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:blacklight915

Lee2216 wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Yes it does specify according to context.

That sounds kinda vague...  Could you give some examples?

1) The moral law is the 10 commandments

2) An example of a civil law is Deuteronomy 15:1 , "At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts."

3) Deuteronomy 16:13, which instructed the Israelites to "celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days after you have gathered the produce of your threshing floor and your winepress."

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

Wow...not even during my WORST period of depression, did I ever have THAT bad an opinion of myself...

Not only that, you have the same horrific opinion of EVERY PERSON EVER (unless Jesus counts as a person)

Have you ever taken anything that didn't belong to you? Even once? Have you ever looked at a woman with lust...just once? 

 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.(James 2:10)

We are all guilty and will be judged according to God's perfect standard not our own human fallible standard.

Ah, Ray Comfort's crap. That explains quite a bit.

If you see Ray ask him this - if lying once makes you a liar what does continually lying (as he does) make you?

Getting back to the "moral law" - if it is both moral and of God why do you work so hard to find loopholes?

For example - "It's not 'thou shalt not kill' - it's 'thou shalt not murder'" or "God too a moral stand on adultery but he didn't have an opinion on the punishment and left it up to the illiterate folk back then."

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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cj wrote: Lee2216 wrote: The

cj wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

The answers are in the scriptures that I've been giving you. You refuse to believe. Knowledge is not a feeling. Evidence of creation has clearly been seen by all so that nobody is without excuse. The bible is the most accurate book ever written and archaeological evidence supports the bible 100%.

I have peace and contentment because I have a gracious and merciful God who has forgiven me of my sins past present future. Repent and believe and His mercy and grace will be showered upon you as well. The bible is the only book that has a savior that shed His blood and fully satisfied God's wrath as a propitiation for my sins. He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

 

Knowing that you know is a feeling.  I would believe if there were evidence to believe in the holy spirit.  But you have given me no evidence of the holy spirit, only verses from your bible.  This is circular reasoning - you believe the bible because it tells you to believe.

An example of inaccuracy in the bible vis a vis archaeology, the pyramids were NOT built by slaves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4L6A-lBPyk

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/videos/builders-of-the-pyramids/

How do you know you are saved?  You believe you are saved, that much is obvious.  But how do you know?  What evidence do you have?  A feeling? 

Disagree! A hunch is a feeling...something that may be true and it might not be true. 2+2=4 and we know this equation to be true because of....knowledge. 2+2=4 is not a feeling. I would think logic would be enough evidence and the universe God has made. Where do you think all this came from...nothing? The 100+ billion galaxies we've discovered, so many stars that can't be counted. If the earth were to tilt off it's axis by 1 degrees it would be catastrophic. What keeps the earth on it's axis? 

Read the book of Exodus. Nowhere in the bible does it claim that Hebrew slaves built the pyramids. Archaeological evidence demonstrates the historical and cultural accuracy of the bible. 

I know I'm saved because I test myself by God's word.

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (2 Corinthians 13:5)

 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:6-10)

 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:22-23)

To use and old cliche I know because the bible tells me so.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Yes I endorse God's moral laws as the right ones. It does gel with what I said before. I don't believe women should be stoned because that law only applied to the Israelites of that time and was a civil law NOT a moral law. Those civil laws don't apply to any nation today. In that situation I would tell the truth to the soldiers. Would I be responsible for that persons death? No the soldiers are responsible. It would be better for that person to be killed rather than be tortured and experimented on for who knows how long. I don't follow your logic at all. If I knew that someone was planning on committing a murder I would call the authorities I wouldn't steal their guns.

First god's morals don't change and now they do ? Which is it ? Inconsistency is the first sign of faulty logic.

They don't change and I never said they change. I know, your worldview is inconsistent and completely devoid of logic.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Yes I endorse God's moral laws as the right ones. It does gel with what I said before. I don't believe women should be stoned because that law only applied to the Israelites of that time and was a civil law NOT a moral law. Those civil laws don't apply to any nation today. In that situation I would tell the truth to the soldiers. Would I be responsible for that persons death? No the soldiers are responsible. It would be better for that person to be killed rather than be tortured and experimented on for who knows how long. I don't follow your logic at all. If I knew that someone was planning on committing a murder I would call the authorities I wouldn't steal their guns.

First god's morals don't change and now they do ? Which is it ? Inconsistency is the first sign of faulty logic.

They don't change and I never said they change. I know, your worldview is inconsistent and completely devoid of logic.

They don't change - they just no longer apply, right Lee? After all, Jesus abolished all those laws and replaced them with faith and belief. Read Romans - none of this stuff you're discussing applies to the believer.

Don't ask me to take seriously the commandments you don't.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Lee2216

 

dp

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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cj wrote:Lee2216 wrote:Even

cj wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Even though they may not be able to feel empathy they still know it's wrong to murder. What you reap you shall sow. Yes we can ask for forgiveness but the bible also says we are not to go on sinning willfully either (Hebrews 10:26-27) We all deserve punishment because we are all evil. And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. (Mark 10:18) 

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5)

 

Ted Bundy wrote an autobiography.  You might want to read it sometime - he didn't feel guilt, didn't believe all the murders he did were wrong.  Though he cared about getting caught.

And you know, my heart is not full of evil - I'm too old to mess around like that.  I don't drink - I can't afford it and my doctor would have conniptions.  I buy a lottery ticket every once in a while, but I would hardly call that gambling.  I have a tendency to swear, but so what?  I don't smoke, never have.  I don't steal - not even pens from the office.  I don't lie - though I would if it would save someone's life.  I love and am faithful to my husband of 27+ years.  I love my sons who are all adults now. 

If your god/s/dess is going to send me to hell because I won't kiss his/her/its/their ass - so be it.

Don't care to read about murderers thank you. The human heart is evil continually (Genesis 6:5) and the heart is deceitfully wicked (Jeremiah 17:9) You say you're not a sinner? You've never stolen anything just once or taken the name of the Lord in vain just once? You remind me of the rich young ruler who thought he followed all the commandments and didn't need to humble himself before God. You're comments sound as though you are self-righteous...I don't do this I don't do that. You can't work you're way to heaven we are saved by His unmerited favor through our faith which are both gifts from Him. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

 

The answers are in the scriptures that I've been giving you. You refuse to believe. Knowledge is not a feeling. Evidence of creation has clearly been seen by all so that nobody is without excuse. The bible is the most accurate book ever written and archaeological evidence supports the bible 100%.

What evidence of creation ? Oh, you mean the Big Bang ? Evolution ? Abiogenesis ? What evidence of creation are you talking about ?

The universe what else would I be talking about. So, how did we get here and where did all of this come from?

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:cj

Lee2216 wrote:

cj wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Even though they may not be able to feel empathy they still know it's wrong to murder. What you reap you shall sow. Yes we can ask for forgiveness but the bible also says we are not to go on sinning willfully either (Hebrews 10:26-27) We all deserve punishment because we are all evil. And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. (Mark 10:18) 

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Genesis 6:5)

 

Ted Bundy wrote an autobiography.  You might want to read it sometime - he didn't feel guilt, didn't believe all the murders he did were wrong.  Though he cared about getting caught.

And you know, my heart is not full of evil - I'm too old to mess around like that.  I don't drink - I can't afford it and my doctor would have conniptions.  I buy a lottery ticket every once in a while, but I would hardly call that gambling.  I have a tendency to swear, but so what?  I don't smoke, never have.  I don't steal - not even pens from the office.  I don't lie - though I would if it would save someone's life.  I love and am faithful to my husband of 27+ years.  I love my sons who are all adults now. 

If your god/s/dess is going to send me to hell because I won't kiss his/her/its/their ass - so be it.

Don't care to read about murderers thank you. The human heart is evil continually (Genesis 6:5) and the heart is deceitfully wicked (Jeremiah 17:9) You say you're not a sinner? You've never stolen anything just once or taken the name of the Lord in vain just once? You remind me of the rich young ruler who thought he followed all the commandments and didn't need to humble himself before God. You're comments sound as though you are self-righteous...I don't do this I don't do that. You can't work you're way to heaven we are saved by His unmerited favor through our faith which are both gifts from Him. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Oh so you plan to stop reading the Bible?

What do you call people who lie and continue to lie (like you, Ray and Kirk)?

I hope someday that you learn to think for yourself and not take the word of con artists.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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harleysportster wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

 The bible is the only book that has a savior that shed His blood and fully satisfied God's wrath as a propitiation for my sins. He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

So let me get this straight. God created people, so that they would violate all of his laws, then deserve hell by the violation and only be able to receive heaven through him. Rather odd.

No, God created people to have communion with Him but because of our federal headship Adam we all inherited his sin nature. So if we follow logically we all deserve to be punished in hell for eternity but He supplied the way out for us.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

 

harleysportster wrote:
Kinda like abusing your children because they were evil enough to be born, then telling them that they deserve to be abused for being born, THEN telling them that the only way to get out of the abuse is to turn to you. That makes absolutely no logical, reasonable or sane sense.

You're completely illogical. Abuse is inflicting emotional or bodily harm on a child for no reason.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Misc. -- Putting an end to even considering ??

 Misc. --

 

 
Quote:
Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:22-23) 

Misc. --

I couldnt tell you why, it is errie (variant spelling eery).. I know part of a browser page is idle and left sitting for four days with a passage attributed to 'the lawless one' in the New Testament's 2 Thes. (with these greek words) jumping out, as follows : 

ἀγάπηνerrie


τῆς

ἀληθείας



 JcGadfly   Speaking only generally, of course, Some of the  tradition, almost thoughtlessly, are sometimes accustomed to forgetting some parts, or even go so far as to put an end to even considering various passages, or if I am being unfair create distinctions nonetheless for themselves.  

If you are going to quote bible, I thought of a few verses, I was able to quickly look, though given time I am sure there are more than the mere few that come to mind.

   I have only the briefest of moments to even comment so let's make the very quick and this is misc. --

  94 1:3 Yahweh, how long shall the wicked, How long shall the wicked triumph?  4 They prate, they speak arrogantly: All the workers of iniquity boast themselves. 

 

   No comment about who that normally describes the best in these parts to everyone's sad experience.  Btw, The verse just preceding the example Lee gave to Blacklight  (part b) says: 

27.. and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within, thy gates, SHALL COME, and shall eat and be satisfied; .. 'that Yahweh the God may bless in all the word of they hand which thou doest. (end quote)"

  There is that  example in the New Testament --

 James 1:27  Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 

 . . .


 

 


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Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

 The bible is the only book that has a savior that shed His blood and fully satisfied God's wrath as a propitiation for my sins. He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

So let me get this straight. God created people, so that they would violate all of his laws, then deserve hell by the violation and only be able to receive heaven through him. Rather odd.

No, God created people to have communion with Him but because of our federal headship Adam we all inherited his sin nature. So if we follow logically we all deserve to be punished in hell for eternity but He supplied the way out for us.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

 

harleysportster wrote:
Kinda like abusing your children because they were evil enough to be born, then telling them that they deserve to be abused for being born, THEN telling them that the only way to get out of the abuse is to turn to you. That makes absolutely no logical, reasonable or sane sense.

You're completely illogical. Abuse is inflicting emotional or bodily harm on a child for no reason.

So many forgotten steps, Lee. Let me help.

God created humans (without giving them moral knowledge).

He then placed a source of moral knowledge in the garden and gave them a moral command that they were incapable of understanding.

He added a tempter (who had moral knowledge) who played on the naivete that God had given the humans.

God then punished the humans for being naive and the tempter he created for doing what he was told.

A test doomed to failure and a classic example of abuse.

Fixed.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Beyond Saving wrote:Yet

Beyond Saving wrote:
Yet somehow, you justify that killing.... why? HOW do you differentiate between murder and killing? . 

I don't justify murder. The difference is intent.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:They don't

Lee2216 wrote:

They don't change and I never said they change.

 

Yes you have, several times on here.

 

Lee2216 wrote:

I know, your worldview is inconsistent and completely devoid of logic.

Well, that should be easy to prove. Quote me. Quote something I stated that was inconsistent and devoid of logic.  Spell it out in context and ask me to back it up. Can you ? Or will you just ignore this post and keep answering the ones that you think you can handle ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

 The bible is the only book that has a savior that shed His blood and fully satisfied God's wrath as a propitiation for my sins. He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

So let me get this straight. God created people, so that they would violate all of his laws, then deserve hell by the violation and only be able to receive heaven through him. Rather odd.

No, God created people to have communion with Him but because of our federal headship Adam we all inherited his sin nature. So if we follow logically we all deserve to be punished in hell for eternity but He supplied the way out for us.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

 

harleysportster wrote:
Kinda like abusing your children because they were evil enough to be born, then telling them that they deserve to be abused for being born, THEN telling them that the only way to get out of the abuse is to turn to you. That makes absolutely no logical, reasonable or sane sense.

You're completely illogical. Abuse is inflicting emotional or bodily harm on a child for no reason.

It is called an ANALOGY, A-N-A-L-O-G-Y. Your telling me that you do not see the parallels. Re-read, and then read jcgadfly's post about it.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Lee2216 wrote:  You say

Lee2216 wrote:

 

 You say you're not a sinner? You've never stolen anything just once or taken the name of the Lord in vain just once? You remind me of the rich young ruler who thought he followed all the commandments and didn't need to humble himself before God. You're comments sound as though you are self-righteous...I don't do this I don't do that. You can't work you're way to heaven we are saved by His unmerited favor through our faith which are both gifts from Him. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

You sure are doing a lot of judging and pronouncing judgement upon someone that you have never met. Is that the christian thing to do ?

Do you have to pronounce evil and self-righteousness upon everyone to bring them all down to your standards ? Or does it just make you feel bad to admit that atheists may possess the same qualities that christians have ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Lee2216 wrote:Beyond Saving

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Yet somehow, you justify that killing.... why? HOW do you differentiate between murder and killing? . 

I don't justify murder. The difference is intent.

So when God wiped people off the face of the earth or commanded others to do so - they were all accidental or unintentional?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Lee2216 wrote:1) The moral

Lee2216 wrote:

1) The moral law is the 10 commandments

2) An example of a civil law is Deuteronomy 15:1 , "At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts."

3) Deuteronomy 16:13, which instructed the Israelites to "celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days after you have gathered the produce of your threshing floor and your winepress."

Ok, but where is the context that tells you which ones no longer apply and which ones don't?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

How much do you hate yourself, Lee2216?

 


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dp

dp


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Prove your

 

Lee2216 wrote:

We are all guilty and will be judged according to God's perfect standard not our own human fallible standard.

 

objective truth claims with objective evidence. You make a baseless assertion that incorporates a threat of judgement, an assertion about the perfection of an undefined entity you label god but which you cannot judge is perfect from your confessedly fallible personal context. It's pleasing to see you finish up by admitting your intellect is fallible! I think this is a big step forward in the development of your intellectual integrity. I'm so pleased you now are a fallibilist; like many of us, Lee; and you worship the Münchhausen Trilemma... 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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You can know

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Yet somehow, you justify that killing.... why? HOW do you differentiate between murder and killing? . 

I don't justify murder. The difference is intent.

 

nothing of god's intent. You can't even coherently define god, or comprehend such a thing if it existed. But you can glibly rationalise the murder and torture spring-loaded into your cult by past men. How lovely you are.  

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I wonder if you'd

 

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

He took the punishment that I fully deserved. I have broken everyone of God's laws and deserve eternal hell but by His grace He saved me.

How much do you hate yourself, Lee2216?

 

answer a question for us, Lee. You are in heaven and the judging is done. It's incineration time. But God's Zippo is out of gas and he turns to his right hand, the Archangel Lee, and asks if you would light the burners. So. There are 90 billion people in Fire Lake. Would you personally light the fire or not?   

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

 I'm interested to hear how you justified this with your libertarian ethic? Being the pawn of the government seems in direct contradiction to this. If you'd indulge me, I'd like to know whether you came to this viewpoint after your service, during, or did you consider yourself libertarian before joining?

 

 

At the time I wasn't a libertarian. I was a card carrying conservative deeply involved in republican party politics hook line and sinker and would generally just spout the party line with no thought. It was actually during the service that I had time to really think about such things and started doing a lot of reading on things like history, ethics, politics and even religion (I was an atheist but mostly by default, I had never really thought about it). The military is great for having a lot of time to think. I wouldn't say my views were really formed until about 5 years later or so. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Lee2216 wrote:I would think

Lee2216 wrote:

I would think logic would be enough evidence and the universe God has made. Where do you think all this came from...nothing?

Logic is only proof that humans can understand and conceptualize reality. Also, do you really think asserting "God made the universe" is going to convince anyone?

As for your question: I don't know why the universe started expanding, and I don't what (if anything) happened before that.

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Don't care to read about murderers thank you.

You seem to "care" to read about your God, and He's a genocidal tyrant who allows eternal torture.

 


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Lee2216 wrote:Beyond Saving

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Yet somehow, you justify that killing.... why? HOW do you differentiate between murder and killing? . 

I don't justify murder. The difference is intent.

So can you tell me how to objectively determine which intents to kill are murder and which not? It seems pointless to say "thou shalt not murder" if you don't define "murder". You might as well say, "thou shalt not snarkwargle". You tell me the knowledge is in my heart and I got drunk and spilled my heart all over the thread, yet my heart came to a very different answer than you said it should. So is my heart defective? If so, how do I obey gods commands to follow his commandments using my heart as a guide when he apparently fucked up making it? 

Give me a definition so if I am ever in a situation where I am deciding whether or not to kill someone I know if it is murder. And it has to be a definition that both of us could consider a particular situation and come to the same conclusion. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

 

harleysportster wrote:
Kinda like abusing your children because they were evil enough to be born, then telling them that they deserve to be abused for being born, THEN telling them that the only way to get out of the abuse is to turn to you. That makes absolutely no logical, reasonable or sane sense.

You're completely illogical. Abuse is inflicting emotional or bodily harm on a child for no reason.

Abuse is inflicting emotional or bodily harm on a child for a bad reason, no one does anything without some kind of reason. I should say that condemning someone to be tortured in hell for eternity is pretty significant harm. And simply because they don't believe in you is a very bad reason imo. Do you think it is a good reason? 

What would you think of me if I had a child then ran away for 30 years, leaving a letter with 10 rules. Had no contact with the child at all. Then 30 years later I come back and tell the kid "I'm your dad." The kid flips me the middle finger and disrespects me (even uses my name in vain!), then tells me "go away, I have a dad" (the man her mother married in my absence) *gasp* worshiping a false idol! So I decide this little squirt has broken my laws so I tie them up in my basement to be tortured. What would you say of me? Why do you apply a different standard to god? 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Given Bible is your only truth, Lee.

 

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"

2 Corinthians 6:14

 

I encourage you to leave the site as soon as possible. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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 jcgadfly wrote:So many

 

jcgadfly wrote:

So many forgotten steps, Lee. Let me help.

God created humans (without giving them moral knowledge).

He then placed a source of moral knowledge in the garden and gave them a moral command that they were incapable of understanding.

He added a tempter (who had moral knowledge) who played on the naivete that God had given the humans.

God then punished the humans for being naive and the tempter he created for doing what he was told.

A test doomed to failure and a classic example of abuse.

Fixed.

 
beyond saving wrote:
What would you think of me if I had a child then ran away for 30 years, leaving a letter with 10 rules. Had no contact with the child at all. Then 30 years later I come back and tell the kid "I'm your dad." The kid flips me the middle finger and disrespects me (even uses my name in vain!), then tells me "go away, I have a dad" (the man her mother married in my absence) *gasp* worshiping a false idol! So I decide this little squirt has broken my laws so I tie them up in my basement to be tortured. What would you say of me? Why do you apply a different standard to god?
 ^ Why I like this site so much.