You go first, how long will this continue.

Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13545
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
You go first, how long will this continue.

Once again the fighting has started up again in Palistine. You get pee shooter rockets, accusations that Hammas is using the population as human sheilds. You get Isreal over reacting. And death and continued fighting on both sides. When is the nation crap and religious crap and  politics going to stop?

Every decade since I was born in 66 this has been an issue. I am so sick of this shit and neither side is getting anywhere. Palistine has to give up on it's theocratic politics, and self police and get the violent people out of it's population. Isrial needs to give up on it's invasions and settlements.

It sickens me that people don't get tired of war and violence. How many humans on either side have to die before it becomes clear that it is futile? Neither side is gong anywhere. Humans are involved on both sides.

There was a time when someone could make a case that they were on the right side of history. But I do not see that. All I see is both sides playing victime lo9oking for excuses for more violence. I wish the international community would step in and settle this with peace keeping forces. Palistinians should not live in a prison, their every day civiliians should not be starved to death. But at the same time they also should not be held hostage by those in power.

Isreal needs to give up on a Jewish state and simply be a westerinized secular state. Palistinians need to purge their rulers of the theocrats and zealots. All labels aside flesh is flesh and death is death and this has been going on for far too long and has affected the entire global community for fart too long.

I am tired of the excuses. Both sides are baging their heads against the wall and getting nowhere simply pissing the other side off more. Is a boarder or a tradition or label so important as to fail to realize that in the end when someone dies on either side, you are STILL killing another human being.

 

We are mpt ;;ovomg om any nobal age of conquest anymore. The world is round, not flat. What you do Palistinians to Isreal has an affect on the world. What you do Isreal to Palistinians has an affect on the world. The selfishness and war sickens me because it seems to be nothing more than a cry for attention trying to get the rest of the world to side with one side.

 

PLEASE FUCKING STOP! You are just two groups of people on a populated planet of 7 billion. Please tell me what right either of you have to turn our planet into your childish game of capture the flag. It is my hope that the international commun9ity instead of chosing sides, SHAMES both sides int o cooperations.

 

There has been no end to this shit and I am beyond caring at this point as an outsider who has no horse in the race. This all stems from evolution and nothing more. We side as humans with that which we are familure with and defend it from outside threats. The problem is that there is an utter failure of the WORLD, not just both sides, BUT THE WORLD, to put enough pressure on both sides.

 

ENOUGH! What right does either side after all this and no end in sight have to cry "poor me". Reea;;y? You'd both take a scorched earth policy and drag the region and possibly the entire world int a war over what?

 

There should be no two state solution. I am at the point where I think both of you need to have your asses kicked, your leaders arrested and repl,aced with sane secular leaders.

 

Regardless of which side I lean to, I am not going to take sides when clearly both sides are ussing the same stupid tactics that simply perpetuate this needless conflict.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5095
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
The blithe dispatch

 

Lee2216 wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:
If your God was real, my "God-given" conscience would force me to think Him the most evil being in existence. Why would God give me a conscience that forces me to reject Him?

God doesn't force you to reject Him. You do that all on your own.

 

of the thread's deepest question.

Idiot. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


blacklight915
blacklight915's picture
Posts: 544
Joined: 2011-12-23
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:blacklight915

Lee2216 wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:

If your God was real, my "God-given" conscience would force me to think Him the most evil being in existence. Why would God give me a conscience that forces me to reject Him?

God doesn't force you to reject Him. You do that all on your own.

Really, so I can circumvent God's will?  Besides, didn't you say it was God that gave me my conscience?

 


GodsUseForAMosquito
ModeratorBronze Member
GodsUseForAMosquito's picture
Posts: 404
Joined: 2008-08-27
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:Without God

Lee2216 wrote:

Without God it's impossible to even be a raping, murdering barbarian. Where there is no law there is no transgression. If you were to murder someone Jc there would have to be an authority higher than you that established a law that said "you shall not commit murder." If there is no law there is no such thing as murder being wrong. My morals are not my own. Morals are objective not subjective. If subjective, then we have no business telling anyone their wrong which would nullify any need for the judicial system. Don't you see the problem with relativism?

I'm pretty sure Lee has buggered off now, but just to give him something else to ignore, I can easily prove I don't use the Christian world view because I condemn the use of slaves - Something the bible does not do. It sets out rules for the regulation of them.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Since the bible was written, our morality has changed so we find slavery reprehensible. Morals are subjective. Don't you see the problem with absolutism?

 

 

 


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist wrote: But

Atheistextremist wrote:
But when you; on the basis of no definitions, proofs or precedents; judge and find guilty the whole human race, you are totally oblivious. It's just pathetic.

I don't find the whole human race guilty God does. 

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Prove

Beyond Saving wrote:
Prove your god is eternal.

LOL!!! I know that proof thing is a stumbling block to you isn't it. Do me a favor, go outside and take a breath of fresh air and look around. There is your proof.

Beyond Saving wrote:
So if somehow it was proven conclusively to you that there is no god and everything you believe is moral was simply made up by man, would you start raping and murdering?

Your question lacks logic. If there is no God then I don't exist so it would be impossible to start raping or murdering.

Beyond Saving wrote:
I don't think I have any business telling people what is wrong. 

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
blacklight915 wrote: Lee2216

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:

If your God was real, my "God-given" conscience would force me to think Him the most evil being in existence. Why would God give me a conscience that forces me to reject Him?

God doesn't force you to reject Him. You do that all on your own.

Really, so I can circumvent God's will?  Besides, didn't you say it was God that gave me my conscience?

 

 

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (Romans 9:19-21)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


GodsUseForAMosquito
ModeratorBronze Member
GodsUseForAMosquito's picture
Posts: 404
Joined: 2008-08-27
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:I believe we

Lee2216 wrote:

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

 

Jesus Fucking Christ.

 

Lee2216 wrote:

 

Beyond Saving wrote:

So if somehow it was proven conclusively to you that there is no god and everything you believe is moral was simply made up by man, would you start raping and murdering?

Your question lacks logic. If there is no God then I don't exist so it would be impossible to start raping or murdering.

Based on his response I quoted above, I honestly think he would.

 


blacklight915
blacklight915's picture
Posts: 544
Joined: 2011-12-23
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:I don't find

Lee2216 wrote:

I don't find the whole human race guilty God does. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

Do you disagree with your God's judgement?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (Romans 9:19-21)

So, basically, you would not find fault with your God even if He created me such that I couldn't possibly avoid hell?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

Unless he's trolling, this guy's delusions are approaching insanity...

Oh, um...is there anyone we should contact about this?

 


GodsUseForAMosquito
ModeratorBronze Member
GodsUseForAMosquito's picture
Posts: 404
Joined: 2008-08-27
User is offlineOffline
 Westboro' Baptist church?

 Westboro' Baptist church? They're always on the look out for new types of lunatics..


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5095
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Aside from this

Lee2216 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
But when you; on the basis of no definitions, proofs or precedents; judge and find guilty the whole human race, you are totally oblivious. It's just pathetic.

I don't find the whole human race guilty God does. 

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)

 

biblical assertion for which no supporting evidence exists, you need to define sin, show us how such justice functions objectively, and define god. So far, I still don't know what you are talking about. What is a god?

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


blacklight915
blacklight915's picture
Posts: 544
Joined: 2011-12-23
User is offlineOffline
GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

Westboro' Baptist church? They're always on the look out for new types of lunatics..

Seriously, though, it's unlikely he'll actually hurt anyone, right?

 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5095
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Lee,

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Prove your god is eternal.

Do me a favor, go outside and take a breath of fresh air and look around. There is your proof.

 

There is your proof of what?

Any time you feel up to it, please define your first premise. What is a god? And how does our perception of material reality support your contention that beyond space and time (and your knowledge) there exists a being that cannot be defined and whose characteristics cannot be known, yet whose 'mind' you claim to know and whose actions can be known?

It would be better if you did not depend on the bible as your proof. As the doctrine of a cult it cannot be considered unbiased evidence. It fails as a literary historical source, nor can the historical method ever be called upon to support supernatural narrative. Bible hypotheses are supported by no data and there is no objective structure with which to measure the bible's fantastic truth claims. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1514
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
In Viking Scandinavia . . . . (before Christianity was brought)

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
I don't think I have any business telling people what is wrong. 

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

  A look at courtship, love, marriage and divorce in Viking Scandinavia long before Luther or the Christians. Divorce was one of the least concerns  if a woman was accused of Adultery. One of the tests I seem to recall, was to place the accused (her) against a large tree or building. And I forget who, but  a large ax-was tossed at her head, from an incredible distance, to try to completely cut off a long loch(s) of her braided hair. The up-shoot was 'if' she had it cut off, while narrowly missing her head, the gods had judged. And, 'If' the ax thrown had a fatal path NOT missing her head. Well, The gods have judged and she obviously must have been guilty. So, Vikings were a rough and tumble bunch. Many of the little Valleys only 160 yrs ago. If you were an outsider, you had better watch your back (this is even after Christianity had firmly taken hold, of course). But, My Grandpa always assured me they were some of the nicest people on earth (highly biased as he always was). Lee, Would you re-institute such tests of purity ? 

 

 

John 8:2-11 (English Standard Version)

  

 Early in the morning Christ Jesus came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and Jesus sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Lee.  So what do you say?” This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away one by one, beginning with the older ones, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more

My son, Lee, careful there Rocks with Stones . .

I John 

 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us

 

 So you dont get any bright ideas, I will have you know I am Jim Bob & Michelle Duggar Family marriage material (no joking).

 

 

 

 


iwbiek
atheistSuperfan
iwbiek's picture
Posts: 3283
Joined: 2008-03-23
User is onlineOnline
Lee2216 wrote:I believe we

Lee2216 wrote:

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

i believe people who say things like this should be stoned half to death so they know precisely what it is they're advocating, sort of like how police officers have to take hits with pepper spray and a taser so they understand them completely.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:Beyond Saving

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Prove your god is eternal.

LOL!!! I know that proof thing is a stumbling block to you isn't it. Do me a favor, go outside and take a breath of fresh air and look around. There is your proof.

Beyond Saving wrote:
So if somehow it was proven conclusively to you that there is no god and everything you believe is moral was simply made up by man, would you start raping and murdering?

Your question lacks logic. If there is no God then I don't exist so it would be impossible to start raping or murdering.

Beyond Saving wrote:
I don't think I have any business telling people what is wrong. 

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

I'm tempted to call Poe but I know people like this...

You wouldn't exist without God? Really? When did God bang your mom and is she still a virgin?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


GodsUseForAMosquito
ModeratorBronze Member
GodsUseForAMosquito's picture
Posts: 404
Joined: 2008-08-27
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:I believe we

Lee2216 wrote:

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

If this is your Christian worldview, then no-one here has this worldview; I'm pretty sure.

 

Oh, and by the way, in case I've not been clear earlier, Fuck you you fundy piece of shit - it's views like yours that keep humanity barbarous and fliying planes into buildings. There's a time for debate, and a time for judgement - the debate is over as far as I'm concerned, and you've been judged as a worthless shit-stain on the putrid and diseased ass of an ignorant troll.

I pity any children you may bring into this world who you'll inevitably pollute with such a 'christian worldview'.

 

Dick.

 

 


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4435
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:Beyond Saving

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Prove your god is eternal.

LOL!!! I know that proof thing is a stumbling block to you isn't it. Do me a favor, go outside and take a breath of fresh air and look around. There is your proof.

I did, it is a beautiful morning, I woke up at an old friends house so it took me a few seconds to really get my bearings and remember last night but I took the dog for a little walk in the neighborhood and breathed quite deeply of the brisk morning air. It was me, the dog (a great dane) and a couple of geese sitting on the pond. Apparently god didn't know he was supposed to show up, fucking drunk was probably more hung over than I was. 

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
So if somehow it was proven conclusively to you that there is no god and everything you believe is moral was simply made up by man, would you start raping and murdering?

Your question lacks logic. If there is no God then I don't exist so it would be impossible to start raping or murdering.

You wouldn't know logic if it bitch slapped you. 

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
I don't think I have any business telling people what is wrong. 

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

Does it make you feel tough to stone women? You are pathetic. 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
blacklight915 wrote:Do you

blacklight915 wrote:
Do you disagree with your God's judgement?

No!

blacklight915 wrote:
So, basically, you would not find fault with your God even if He created me such that I couldn't possibly avoid hell?

 No I wouldn't find fault with God because you have broken His laws and deserve an eternity in Hell. Do I want you to go to hell, no. That's why I'm here giving you God's word so that you'll repent and place your faith in Him for forgiveness of your sins.

 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist wrote:you

Atheistextremist wrote:
you need to define sin, show us how such justice functions objectively, and define god. So far, I still don't know what you are talking about. What is a god?

Sin is anything that is contrary to the law or will of God. God is the supreme being of the universe.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist wrote:Any

Atheistextremist wrote:
Any time you feel up to it, please define your first premise. What is a god? And how does our perception of material reality support your contention that beyond space and time (and your knowledge) there exists a being that cannot be defined and whose characteristics cannot be known, yet whose 'mind' you claim to know and whose actions can be known?

I defined God for you in my previous reply. If you would read the bible rather than attack it you would find the attributes or characteristics of God defined in the bible as well as some of His mind and His actions in space and time.

Atheistextremist wrote:
It would be better if you did not depend on the bible as your proof. As the doctrine of a cult it cannot be considered unbiased evidence. It fails as a literary historical source, nor can the historical method ever be called upon to support supernatural narrative. Bible hypotheses are supported by no data and there is no objective structure with which to measure the bible's fantastic truth claims. 

This is complete utter BS! I WILL depend on the bible as my proof and standard of truth. I know you don't like that but to bad for you or any other person on these blogs. That would be like me telling the scientist not to use his tools to perform his experiment. Unbiased LOL!! There is no such thing as unbiased. Everyone is biased.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:Beyond Saving

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
I don't think I have any business telling people what is wrong. 

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

Beyond Saving wrote:
Does it make you feel tough to stone women? You are pathetic. 

Wait just one minute!! I'm not letting you off that easy. Why are you asking me if I feel tough and calling me pathetic. Did my comment bother you? I really don't believe we should stone adulterers I just wanted to expose your contradiction. In one post by your own words you said you don't think you have any business telling people what is wrong. Then in the next post you tell me I'm wrong for wanting to stone people.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:
Oh, and by the way, in case I've not been clear earlier, Fuck you you fundy piece of shit - it's views like yours that keep humanity barbarous and fliying planes into buildings. There's a time for debate, and a time for judgement - the debate is over as far as I'm concerned, and you've been judged as a worthless shit-stain on the putrid and diseased ass of an ignorant troll.

I pity any children you may bring into this world who you'll inevitably pollute with such a 'christian worldview'. Dick.

No, it's belief systems such as Islam and extremist muslims that fly planes into buildings. It's sin and the evil in the human heart that causes such things. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9) I've never ever heard of a Christian flying a plane into a building and my views and beliefs reflect none of these such things. So enough of your straw men. I pity the person who goes to the doctor and is told they are sick and the doctor tells them there is a cure but the patient refuses to believe they are sick and ends up dying. That's insanity!!

 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4435
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:Wait just one

Lee2216 wrote:

Wait just one minute!! I'm not letting you off that easy.

Let me off of what? You think you have me in a corner? If you think you are going to astonish me with your rhetorical skills and I am going to run away with my tail between my legs you are sorely mistaken. I have had a few debates on this site that have really pushed me to my intellectual limit, you are clearly not a person capable of that kind of debate but go ahead and take your best shot, if you actually make me think I will be very pleasantly surprised.

 

Lee2216 wrote:
 

Why are you asking me if I feel tough and calling me pathetic.

Because I wanted to know if your comments made you feel tough. Generally, I ask questions because I am mildly interested in the answer. I called you pathetic to inform you of the low opinion I have developed of you due to your comments. I usually tell people what I honestly think of them because if I just think to myself "this guy is really pathetic" there is a possibility that you don't realize you are. So being the nice guy that I am, I have informed you that I believe you are pathetic so you know what I think and have an opportunity to do some introspection and either agree with my assessment and take steps to change how you present yourself or you can disagree with my assessment and continue making a fool of yourself. 

 

Lee2216 wrote:
 

Did my comment bother you?

I do find people that advocate stoning and worship a deity that they believe will torture humans for eternity bothersome. 

 

Lee2216 wrote:
 

I really don't believe we should stone adulterers I just wanted to expose your contradiction. In one post by your own words you said you don't think you have any business telling people what is wrong. Then in the next post you tell me I'm wrong for wanting to stone people.

 

Unlike your bible the paragraphs I write are intended to be read in full rather than simply reading the first sentence. 

Beyond Saving wrote:

I don't think I have any business telling people what is wrong. My only business is telling people "If you do X to me, I will do Y to you- so why don't we just make things more pleasant and we both agree not to do X to each other?" If they agree great, if they don't agree then I have to do Y. 

Now admittedly I tend to assume that the people I am communicating with have a decent level of reading comprehension skills, which is probably an irrational assumption given the mountains of evidence that many people either don't have such skills or are intellectually dishonest and pretend they didn't comprehend, but we all have our pet irrationalities. Nowhere did I suggest that people shouldn't judge others, I merely suggested that there is not an objective right or wrong in regard to morality.  

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:You wouldn't

jcgadfly wrote:
You wouldn't exist without God? Really?

 For you formed my inward parts;you knitted me together in my mother's womb.(Psalm 139:13)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:This is

Lee2216 wrote:

This is complete utter BS! I WILL depend on the bible as my proof and standard of truth. I know you don't like that but to bad for you or any other person on these blogs. That would be like me telling the scientist not to use his tools to perform his experiment. Unbiased LOL!! There is no such thing as unbiased. Everyone is biased.

 

Let me clearly understand - you base your beliefs on the bible as a standard of truth.  Spiritual truths only?  Physical truths about the universe?  Social truths?  What is your definition of truth?  Of faith?

Of course we are all biased.  That is why the scientific method was developed.  Other people must be able to replicate your experiments and get similar results.  Your experiments must relate to what you are attempting to test.  That is, they must be replicatable and verifiable.  Are your truths verifiable?  Can you say that anyone can replicate them and get the same results you do?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Let me

Beyond Saving wrote:
Let me off of what? You think you have me in a corner? If you think you are going to astonish me with your rhetorical skills and I am going to run away with my tail between my legs you are sorely mistaken. I have had a few debates on this site that have really pushed me to my intellectual limit, you are clearly not a person capable of that kind of debate but go ahead and take your best shot, if you actually make me think I will be very pleasantly surprised.
 

The truth has you in a corner. You suppress the truth in your unrighteousness. Truth is not found by intellect but by the word of God.

Beyond Saving wrote:
Because I wanted to know if your comments made you feel tough. Generally, I ask questions because I am mildly interested in the answer. I called you pathetic to inform you of the low opinion I have developed of you due to your comments. I usually tell people what I honestly think of them because if I just think to myself "this guy is really pathetic" there is a possibility that you don't realize you are. So being the nice guy that I am, I have informed you that I believe you are pathetic so you know what I think and have an opportunity to do some introspection and either agree with my assessment and take steps to change how you present yourself or you can disagree with my assessment and continue making a fool of yourself.

Frankly sir I could care less what you think about me. Atheists with a low opinion of Christians who think their smarter than Christians is nothing new.

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” (Psalm 14:1) Looks like truth has reared it's ugly head again. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight. (Proverbs 9:10)

 

Beyond Saving wrote:
Nowhere did I suggest that people shouldn't judge others, I merely suggested that there is not an objective right or wrong in regard to morality.

There is not an objective right or wrong in regards to morality? Really?

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
cj wrote:Let me clearly

cj wrote:
Let me clearly understand - you base your beliefs on the bible as a standard of truth.  Spiritual truths only?  Physical truths about the universe?  Social truths?  What is your definition of truth?  Of faith?

Truth is a statement that accurately reflects reality, logic, and/or morality. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1)

cj wrote:
Are your truths verifiable? Can you say that anyone can replicate them and get the same results you do?

Yes

 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1514
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, . . . (greatest of these ??)

Re :: For now we see in a mirror, dimly,. . Now I know in part . .

Lee2216 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
you need to define sin, show us how such justice functions objectively, and define god. So far, I still don't know what you are talking about. What is a god?

Sin is anything that is contrary to the law or will of God. God is the supreme being of the universe.

  Lee2216. I wish to thank you for two things . . .

 a) Being kind and courageous enough to stick around to defend your views (instead of the normal turning tail and running).

 b) Not high tailing it out of here (an idiom), when many in similar situations (abruptly) storm off and and are never heard from.

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
I don't think I have any business telling people what is wrong. 

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

 Beyond replies, Does it make you feel tough to stone women? You are pathetic. 



  Lookie Lee. Unintentionally ran into the words of one of the more nortoriously unscrupulous charlatans, televangelist while on the Internet. This guy is reportedly in a class of his own when it comes to deceptive scoundrels. In preaching, according to internet sources, has been quoted as saying:
“God’s reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself, and in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. Adam is as much like God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh.” .. "Any christian could have died on the cross as a sin offering"

 Whatever the type of christian you claim to be. I am sure you'd want to go run to the scriptures to correct this guy. What is interesting  is  he thinks this reflects what is in the NT.  Problem?  You wouldnt be agreeing with this joker, let's assume.  How is money bags ignoring/ non-response, given people's capacity for self-deception, fundamentally different from certain people who apparently are willfully willing to ignore the words from the Gospel of John, for example?  Let's be honest,  You quote entire passages from Romans but wish to forget about the words found in the Gospels? Not to be too harsh but I'd think it was an aid and assistance for any type of christian to at least be internally consistent. Again, Hate to say it but it's really hard to run from direct quotes. And in this instance you werent quoting someone else either Lee. Ouch! We never did get an answer. What kind of a christian did you say you were ?


    Ironically, You have an Atheist board member pointing to where (apparently) you're not lining up with the Gospel message anymore than money bags ever was. Though I am not sure in this instance, and it might be nothing more than washing your hands of the matter. You get corrected using the very words from the Bible itself.  All the-while , Are you choosing to ignore passages  just like money bags continues to do ?  Honestly seems that way. Though I could be wrong. And, 'why' pray tell /? You should be appreciative and apologetic all at the same time. 

 

 


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4435
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:The truth has

Lee2216 wrote:

The truth has you in a corner. You suppress the truth in your unrighteousness. Truth is not found by intellect but by the word of God.

As you correctly pointed out in the case of people who ignore the intellect of doctors in favor of trying to pray their disease away; that's insanity!

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Frankly sir I could care less what you think about me. Atheists with a low opinion of Christians who think their smarter than Christians is nothing new.

Oh, I don't hold a low opinion of all christians, there are many christians I hold in high regard even if I find their god belief silly. And if you manage to come up with some decent argument my opinion of you is open to change. 

 

Lee2216 wrote:

There is not an objective right or wrong in regards to morality? Really?

Really. Morality is as subjective as beauty.  

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


GodsUseForAMosquito
ModeratorBronze Member
GodsUseForAMosquito's picture
Posts: 404
Joined: 2008-08-27
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:There is not

Lee2216 wrote:

There is not an objective right or wrong in regards to morality? Really?

 If that's the case please answer the slaves question. Should slavery be legal like the old and new testaments say it should? Or has morality changed since then? 

 


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
danatemporary wrote:Re ::

danatemporary wrote:

Re :: For now we see in a mirror, dimly,. . Now I know in part . .

Lee2216 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
you need to define sin, show us how such justice functions objectively, and define god. So far, I still don't know what you are talking about. What is a god?

Sin is anything that is contrary to the law or will of God. God is the supreme being of the universe.

  Lee2216. I wish to thank you for two things . . .

 a) Being kind and courageous enough to stick around to defend your views (instead of the normal turning tail and running).

 b) Not high tailing it out of here (an idiom), when many in similar situations (abruptly) storm off and and are never heard from.

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
I don't think I have any business telling people what is wrong. 

I believe we should stone people to death who commit adultery.

 Beyond replies, Does it make you feel tough to stone women? You are pathetic. 



  Lookie Lee. Unintentionally ran into the words of one of the more nortoriously unscrupulous charlatans, televangelist while on the Internet. This guy is reportedly in a class of his own when it comes to deceptive scoundrels. In preaching, according to internet sources, has been quoted as saying:
“God’s reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself, and in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. Adam is as much like God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh.” .. "Any christian could have died on the cross as a sin offering"

 Whatever the type of christian you claim to be. I am sure you'd want to go run to the scriptures to correct this guy. What is interesting  is  he thinks this reflects what is in the NT.  Problem?  You wouldnt be agreeing with this joker, let's assume.  How is money bags ignoring/ non-response, given people's capacity for self-deception, fundamentally different from certain people who apparently are willfully willing to ignore the words from the Gospel of John, for example?  Let's be honest,  You quote entire passages from Romans but wish to forget about the words found in the Gospels? Not to be too harsh but I'd think it was an aid and assistance for any type of christian to at least be internally consistent. Again, Hate to say it but it's really hard to run from direct quotes. And in this instance you werent quoting someone else either Lee. Ouch! We never did get an answer. What kind of a christian did you say you were ?


    Ironically, You have an Atheist board member pointing to where (apparently) you're not lining up with the Gospel message anymore than money bags ever was. Though I am not sure in this instance, and it might be nothing more than washing your hands of the matter. You get corrected using the very words from the Bible itself.  All the-while , Are you choosing to ignore passages  just like money bags continues to do ?  Honestly seems that way. Though I could be wrong. And, 'why' pray tell /? You should be appreciative and apologetic all at the same time. 

No I don't agree with this preacher whoever he is. He is a false teacher. Because I haven't used some of the words of the gospel of John doesn't mean I purposefully ignored them. I would sure love to see where I was not lining up with the gospels. Point it out if I have.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


blacklight915
blacklight915's picture
Posts: 544
Joined: 2011-12-23
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:No I wouldn't

Lee2216 wrote:

No I wouldn't find fault with God because you have broken His laws and deserve an eternity in Hell. Do I want you to go to hell, no. That's why I'm here giving you God's word so that you'll repent and place your faith in Him for forgiveness of your sins.

You wouldn't find fault with a being who would allow me to be tortured forever?  Lee, your God has turned you into a psychopath--He's crippled your ability to empathize and to feel compassion.

Lee, could you be wrong about Christianity?  Could it be as false as every other religion?

 


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Really.

Beyond Saving wrote:
Really. Morality is as subjective as beauty.

 If you don’t need an objective standard of morality by which you can judge what is right or wrong, then how do you determine what is right and wrong?

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

There is not an objective right or wrong in regards to morality? Really?

 If that's the case please answer the slaves question. Should slavery be legal like the old and new testaments say it should? Or has morality changed since then? 

 

No it shouldn't be legal and God didn't approve of it either. Human morals change but God doesn't change. Since God has allowed man freedom and since there is sin in the world there is slavery. Actually God told the Israelites to treat them properly.

 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
blacklight915 wrote: Lee2216

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

No I wouldn't find fault with God because you have broken His laws and deserve an eternity in Hell. Do I want you to go to hell, no. That's why I'm here giving you God's word so that you'll repent and place your faith in Him for forgiveness of your sins.

You wouldn't find fault with a being who would allow me to be tortured forever?  Lee, your God has turned you into a psychopath--He's crippled your ability to empathize and to feel compassion.

Lee, could you be wrong about Christianity?  Could it be as false as every other religion?

No, I wouldn't find fault with God for punishing any sinner who hasn't repented. You and I have broken His laws and should be punished. But there is good news. Jesus came and took the punishment that we deserved and whoever repents and believes shall have everlasting life and escape the coming wrath of God. That's good news. So exactly what your saying is if one of your loved ones was murdered and the judge let that convicted murderer walk you would be completely fine with that. You wouldn't want justice for your loved one? First, Christianity is only as true as the person of Jesus. He fulfilled prophecy, claimed to be God in flesh, performed many miracles, died, and physically rose from the dead. Christianity is about Jesus, his claims, and his deeds. It is based on him and it is only as true as he is true. Second, Christianity is consistent with reason, facts, and shows evidence of God's inspiration in the Bible. Third, all other religious systems are either unverifiable or irrational in their teachings.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:cj wrote:Let

Lee2216 wrote:

cj wrote:
Let me clearly understand - you base your beliefs on the bible as a standard of truth.  Spiritual truths only?  Physical truths about the universe?  Social truths?  What is your definition of truth?  Of faith?

Truth is a statement that accurately reflects reality, logic, and/or morality. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1)

Quote:

 

How do you know what is reality?  What is faith?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

cj wrote:
Are your truths verifiable? Can you say that anyone can replicate them and get the same results you do?

Yes

 

Then why are there thousands of gods that people believe in, tens of thousands of religions?  They can't all be the truth when they have major differences, can they?  If we can all replicate the method you have in coming to truth, why haven't we?  I have noticed some people who hang out here have had very long contact with various religions and yet they have rejected all of them.  Why aren't your truths so self-evident to people who tried long and hard to believe in them?

My sister the Jehovah Witness insists all Catholics are going to hell.  They, according to her, are idolators and will be condemned.  Do you believe this as well?  If not, why not?  Is my sister going to hell instead?  Why or why not?

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
cj wrote:Then why are there

cj wrote:
Then why are there thousands of gods that people believe in, tens of thousands of religions?  They can't all be the truth when they have major differences, can they?  If we can all replicate the method you have in coming to truth, why haven't we?  I have noticed some people who hang out here have had very long contact with various religions and yet they have rejected all of them.  Why aren't your truths so self-evident to people who tried long and hard to believe in them?

"Romans 1:19-21 contains the biblical explanation for why there are so many religions. The truth of God is seen and known by every human being because God has made it so. Instead of accepting the truth about God and submitting to it, most human beings reject it and seek their own way to understand God. But this leads not to enlightenment regarding God, but to futility of thinking. Here is where we find the basis of the “many religions.” Many people do not want to believe in a God who demands righteousness and morality, so they invent a God who makes no such requirements. Many people do not want to believe in a God who declares it impossible for people to earn their own way to heaven. So they invent a God who accepts people into heaven if they have completed certain steps, followed certain rules, and/or obeyed certain laws, at least to the best of their ability. Many people do not want a relationship with a God who is sovereign and omnipotent. So they imagine God as being more of a mystical force than a personal and sovereign ruler. The existence of so many religions is not an argument against God's existence or an argument that truth about God is not clear. Rather, the existence of so many religions is demonstration of humanity's rejection of the one true God. Mankind has replaced Him with gods that are more to their liking. This is a dangerous enterprise. The desire to recreate God in our own image comes from the sin nature within us—a nature that will eventually reap destruction.”

 

cj wrote:
My sister the Jehovah Witness insists all Catholics are going to hell.  They, according to her, are idolators and will be condemned.  Do you believe this as well?  If not, why not?  Is my sister going to hell instead?  Why or why not?

If anyone's belief in Jesus differs doctrinally or theologically than how He is revealed in the bible would be guilty of idolatry and would be condemned to an eternity in hell. The Jehovah's Witness organization distorts the essential doctrines of Christianity. It denies the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. This alone makes it non-Christian. If your sister doesn't repent of her unbelief she will surely be in hell when she passes on. Same thing with Catholics. Catholicism violates the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone. Catholics believe we are saved by faith plus works. Catholicism denies that we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone.

 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4435
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:Beyond Saving

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Really. Morality is as subjective as beauty.

 If you don’t need an objective standard of morality by which you can judge what is right or wrong, then how do you determine what is right and wrong?

Why would I need an objective standard? You go through life making subjective determinations every single day. Do you need an objective standard to determine whether something is beautiful or ugly? To determine whether a song is good or bad? To determine whether your dinner tastes good?

 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


blacklight915
blacklight915's picture
Posts: 544
Joined: 2011-12-23
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:So exactly

Lee2216 wrote:

So exactly what your saying is if one of your loved ones was murdered and the judge let that convicted murderer walk you would be completely fine with that. You wouldn't want justice for your loved one?

Not at all, I want justice for everyone--which is exactly why I reject hell as immoral.

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Christianity is about Jesus, his claims, and his deeds. It is based on him and it is only as true as he is true.

So, could the claims the Bible makes about Jesus be false?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Second, Christianity is consistent with reason, facts, and shows evidence of God's inspiration in the Bible.

Eternal punishment is not reasonable. If read literally, the account of creation in genesis contradicts much of what is known about how the universe came to be as it is now. The best book in the Bible is Proverbs, and even it hardly seems "inspired" to me.

 


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1514
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Temporary amnesia, damn! What to do ?

 R e :: Try violated

Lee2216 wrote:
  Because I haven't used some of the words of the gospel of John doesn't mean I purposefully ignored them. I would sure love to see where I was not lining up with the gospels. Point it out if I have.

  Interesting fellow (giggle).  You are sinless?! I though we all stumble in many ways. Apparently deep down and secretly you must think yourself thus, to carry around those stones, attached to that mouth (See: the Text). You did not use some of the words in the Gospel of John?  Try violated. Paying closer attention to the text, friend. Nice innocent act though.   Laughing out loud   According to Karma and Paul people stupid enough to engage in lasciviousness behaviour, according to each of these, they end up "r=e=a=p=i=n=g" and reaping bad? I mean, Correct ? You speak of hell no doubt. These speak of a reaping in this life, no ? Or Are you lacking in faith as well as the failing eye-sight ?  Oh, Thanks to human behaviour, people end up with the scarlet letter even today, in case you forgot yet further. It's amazing how hidden things get uncovered. Oh, But dont worry your pretty head about it, you go about your merry way then.

    :

 

 ___

 Boring is safe; boring is good. ¬Ron-Stoppable

 


blacklight915
blacklight915's picture
Posts: 544
Joined: 2011-12-23
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:The truth of

Lee2216 wrote:

The truth of God is seen and known by every human being because God has made it so.

So, all atheists are lying when they tell you they don't believe your God is real?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

If anyone's belief in Jesus differs doctrinally or theologically than how He is revealed in the bible would be guilty of idolatry and would be condemned to an eternity in hell.

So certain you are of peoples' eternal fates...

 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5095
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
In a smorgasbord

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Third, all other religious systems are either unverifiable or irrational in their teachings.

 

of bald assertions and non-definitions this the wackiest claim you've made yet, Lee. Tell us how Buddhism is more unverifiable and irrational in its teachings. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5095
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Assertions

Lee2216 wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
you need to define sin, show us how such justice functions objectively, and define god. So far, I still don't know what you are talking about. What is a god?

Sin is anything that is contrary to the law or will of God. God is the supreme being of the universe.

 

are positive truth claims that are unsupported by any evidence. What is a supreme being? What are its qualities, its properties, what is its nature? And what is its will? Clearly the bible was written by men. You can tell by the abysmal quality of the writing that a higher power was not involved in its concoction. 

As for sin being anything that contravenes god's law, we can see from your replies that you are unforgiving and that you would fit right into Afghanistan where you could throw rocks at 15 year old girls for falling in love. Given you are clearly immoral and have no self awareness, it's hard to take your bald assertions about the value of god's law seriously. 

The bible and historical experience show us that God's law is morally inconsistent and is malleable, bending so as to accommodate all sorts of horrors. Murder is fine under god's law. Burning women is fine. Torture is fine under god's law. And no proof of sin is needed. Assertions are all the proof a christian needs to claim knowledge of the mind of god.

From a doctrinal point of view, God's laws consist of the ten commandments which are a rather pathetic group of social rules a ten year old could have written that the jews stole from the hittites that are headed up by 4 or 5 commands that rather than being moral, were clearly inserted by priests looking to cement their authority and to out compete other cults. 

When we look around the world we see that the church is a place devoid of morality and so opaque as to have lost contact with its collective conscience. And you have the temerity to insist that your unsubstantiated position is the epitome of moral authority. But I'm pleased by the honesty of your position. I think if monotheists are going to accept christianity and islam they should accept them literally, so we can see them for what they are.  

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5095
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
I'm

 

Lee2216 wrote:

This is complete utter BS! I WILL depend on the bible as my proof and standard of truth. I know you don't like that but to bad for you or any other person on these blogs. That would be like me telling the scientist not to use his tools to perform his experiment. Unbiased LOL!! There is no such thing as unbiased. Everyone is biased.

 

So pleased to hear that you will be relying only on the bible to support your objective truth claims, Lee. As a fallibilist I agree that everyone is biased but it gives me great relief to hear you say that you are biased, too. It's very pleasing to agree on something at last. 

I do find it curious to hear you say that the bible, which is in great part a mythical narrative, can be compared to the tools of a scientist. The thing is of course, that the scientific method as a discipline seeks to let reality do its own talking. A scientist will observe natural phenomena and suggest an hypotheses that seeks to explain the processes at work behind what is observed. Data must be gathered to support the hypothesis and the predictions of the hypothesis must be observed repeatedly. Any observation that contravenes the hypotheses leads to it being questioned, reformulated, or discarded and replaced. Does the bible work this way, Lee?

Further, we all know that observations of the natural world we employ ourselves every day, cannot be relied upon to offer cogent proofs in support of claims about the nature of the supernatural world. Instead these assertions exist as an unsupported hypothesis in the province of the human imagination. In your imagination, Lee. Of course, if you are to argue that supernatural happenings impact upon the natural world, which is the province of scientific observation, then your truth claims about material existence will need to be adequately supported by testable explanations. 

Mustering a mish-mash of assertions and undefined labels contained in a form you yourself insist is irrational (when it takes the form of competing religious narratives) will not help you convince us anything you have to say is more or less true. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:"Romans

Lee2216 wrote:

"Romans 1:19-21 contains the biblical explanation for why there are so many religions. The truth of God is seen and known by every human being because God has made it so. Instead of accepting the truth about God and submitting to it, most human beings reject it and seek their own way to understand God. But this leads not to enlightenment regarding God, but to futility of thinking. Here is where we find the basis of the “many religions.” Many people do not want to believe in a God who demands righteousness and morality, so they invent a God who makes no such requirements. Many people do not want to believe in a God who declares it impossible for people to earn their own way to heaven. So they invent a God who accepts people into heaven if they have completed certain steps, followed certain rules, and/or obeyed certain laws, at least to the best of their ability. Many people do not want a relationship with a God who is sovereign and omnipotent. So they imagine God as being more of a mystical force than a personal and sovereign ruler. The existence of so many religions is not an argument against God's existence or an argument that truth about God is not clear. Rather, the existence of so many religions is demonstration of humanity's rejection of the one true God. Mankind has replaced Him with gods that are more to their liking. This is a dangerous enterprise. The desire to recreate God in our own image comes from the sin nature within us—a nature that will eventually reap destruction.”

 

Nice quote.  Next time, reference your source, please.  It is rude to copy and paste without proper attribution.

http://www.gotquestions.org/so-many-religions.html

But I was asking you. Why do you think there are so many religions and people have a hard time telling which one is the right one?  How would a person who was searching for the true god/s/dess know when they found the right one?  Would they have to come ask you?  How could they find out for themselves?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

cj wrote:
My sister the Jehovah Witness insists all Catholics are going to hell.  They, according to her, are idolators and will be condemned.  Do you believe this as well?  If not, why not?  Is my sister going to hell instead?  Why or why not?

If anyone's belief in Jesus differs doctrinally or theologically than how He is revealed in the bible would be guilty of idolatry and would be condemned to an eternity in hell. The Jehovah's Witness organization distorts the essential doctrines of Christianity. It denies the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. This alone makes it non-Christian. If your sister doesn't repent of her unbelief she will surely be in hell when she passes on. Same thing with Catholics. Catholicism violates the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone. Catholics believe we are saved by faith plus works. Catholicism denies that we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone.

 

Okay, you believe JWs and Catholics are going to hell.  How do you know that your version is the correct one?  Additionally, how do you know that the bible is the truth?  Maybe the Koran is the correct book to believe in and you should be praying to Allah.  Or maybe Krishna.  Or what about any of the other thousands of gods man has invented?  Is it only the bible?  Why is the bible correct and the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita not correct?  How do you know what you know?

 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


GodsUseForAMosquito
ModeratorBronze Member
GodsUseForAMosquito's picture
Posts: 404
Joined: 2008-08-27
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

... please answer the slaves question. Should slavery be legal like the old and new testaments say it should? Or has morality changed since then? 

 

No it shouldn't be legal and God didn't approve of it either. Human morals change but God doesn't change. Since God has allowed man freedom and since there is sin in the world there is slavery. Actually God told the Israelites to treat them properly.

Hmm, so Morality DOES change after all. Great, thanks for agreeing on that.

So Where in the bible (as your source of ethics) does it say God doesn't approve of slavery, or are you just putting words in your god's mouth? Surely, if the bible sets out regulation of slaves, then their existence in the first place must be acceptable, otherwise one of the commandments would have been, "Thou shalt not enslave another"?

So, God's word on the subject is that slaves are acceptable. Modern morality (our 'flawed human morality' which changes) condemns slavery. Should we get back to God's word on this and start enslaving people again? Would God mind if I had a slave, as long as I treated them as the bible requires?

 


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
Beyond Saving wrote:Lee2216

Beyond Saving wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:
Really. Morality is as subjective as beauty.

 If you don’t need an objective standard of morality by which you can judge what is right or wrong, then how do you determine what is right and wrong?

Why would I need an objective standard? You go through life making subjective determinations every single day. Do you need an objective standard to determine whether something is beautiful or ugly? To determine whether a song is good or bad? To determine whether your dinner tastes good?

 

 

Yes we do make subjective determinations every day. I agree with you there. I was speaking specifically of morality. If you believe it is wrong to murder someone and some joe blow over in the middle east believes it's ok to murder someone how do we know which is the right standard if morality is subjective?

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


GodsUseForAMosquito
ModeratorBronze Member
GodsUseForAMosquito's picture
Posts: 404
Joined: 2008-08-27
User is offlineOffline
Lee2216 wrote:how do we know

Lee2216 wrote:

how do we know which is the right standard if morality is subjective?

Ha ha ha

You douche. how can anything be the 'right standard' if it's subjective? You're begging the question.

 

 


Lee2216
Theist
Lee2216's picture
Posts: 328
Joined: 2010-11-23
User is offlineOffline
blacklight915 wrote: Lee2216

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

So exactly what your saying is if one of your loved ones was murdered and the judge let that convicted murderer walk you would be completely fine with that. You wouldn't want justice for your loved one?

Not at all, I want justice for everyone--which is exactly why I reject hell as immoral.

Your logic and position are inconsistent. Then sending a murderer to prison for life would be immoral as well if we use your logic.

 

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Christianity is about Jesus, his claims, and his deeds. It is based on him and it is only as true as he is true.

So, could the claims the Bible makes about Jesus be false?

No! You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me. (John 5:39)

 

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

Second, Christianity is consistent with reason, facts, and shows evidence of God's inspiration in the Bible.

Eternal punishment is not reasonable. If read literally, the account of creation in genesis contradicts much of what is known about how the universe came to be as it is now. The best book in the Bible is Proverbs, and even it hardly seems "inspired" to me.

 

The bible tells us that we will exist into eternity. Why would eternal punishment be unreasonable? It would only be unreasonable if God is not eternal. There is nothing in science that contradicts scripture.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1514
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
I have a dream . . .

 RE:  I have a dream

 

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

So Where in the bible (as your source of ethics) does it say God doesn't approve of slavery

 Race: Slave holding

   Owning humans as slaves in a modern context. Both set's of my grandparents are European immigrants, and going back much further I found no trace of "slave owning" in any of the family, on either side (phew). The  population of the Nordic countries just 100 years ago, there were no black people nor slavery IF you exclude the Danes (not Danish). Yes, This ties in, wait a second. Please understand, With my Grandpa being from a different generation, the word 'Colored' was used. Outside of a single phrase (expression) that could be considered a bit demeaning to some. I dont think he was had a racist bone in this body nor was one at heart. The fact we had black folks over for dinner would better attest to the fact. And apparently I had impromptu black lady who was my unofficial nanny for a brief time when I was small. My great great Aunt was to have remarked once "we never saw a black person before, the first time we had ever laid eyes on one was in the circus". Her remark is not as much offensive as she was stating a fact (Nordic countries).Now my Godmother, she was so racist her words would peal the wallpaper of the walls by her rants (no relation, tehe).

 America's past (somebody of interest)

    Whenever slavery is mentioned, many think back to the American  Civil war.  In this discussion I am reminded an of interesting character who name was John Brown (of the era). Very devote and considered slavery to be a great evil, I learned. In his 'day of reckoning', bitter bitter irony two of Brown's men shot and killed a Shepherd Hayward (a free black man) who worked as a baggage handler (factoid). In all honesty blacks were not that important during though times and were treated purely in economic terms in many regions of America. There was no sweetness. Even today many of the older civil rights leaders from the sixties were shocked at a black man being made President of the United States. Frederick Douglass, of that past era, said of John Brown, "In of sacred memory of, I know of no one who has willingly encountered more perils and hardships to serve our enslaved people than John Brown has". Earlier he had said, "I have lived for the slave, but John Brown was willing to "die for the slave." John Brown, from all accounts, was a deeply devoutly religious man as see in his life. He had Blacks over for dinner and supped with them. Which was UNHEARD of and a great social taboo of the time, in many social circles I gather. To put it mildly, he was someone who didnt find slavery to be Okay was a Bible reading man. And, to be fair, much of that opinion had been formed in his reading of the Bible apparently, if I remember my history at all. As a figure, one cannot help but  wonder how a 'biblicist' such as Brown was could sit down with the same Bible. Come to a radically differing(-ent) conclusion, than as say your Southern slave owner from America's past history. It makes you wonder. My guess is he was paying closer attention to the whole love thy neighbor and bare one another burdens then some of the time.

 Background to the Biblical world

    When anybody is to merely comment on slavery back then. You'd have to start with slavery, as an institution, in the context of the larger Roman world of the time. The Roman empire had slaves of every conceivable race due to the vastness of the Empire, from all over the Empire. Though somewhat advantageous to Rome, it (slavery) was also disastrous in many ways, according to some. The manipulation, the degrading, and the dependency of slaves, in a small way, played a real role in the down fall of Roman civilization apparently. Although both Roman vice and it's treatment of its' "Barbarians" was a far larger factor, in the collapse of Rome, I think. Fore in the Roman world the cruel and inhumane treatments which some Romans gave their to their slaves, again, partly led to its' downfall. Many historians made the observation that the moment the Empire no longer grew, it was destined to collapse under its' own weight. Anyhow. Treatment of slaves should be mentioned. For example, the condition in which slaves were kept after being captured was very humiliating. When slaves were first captured, they were brought to auction blocks stripped naked as the buyers examined and placed cards on the slaves that listed all the qualifications of the slave. It is a point worth mentioning, in terms of context. To get back to the point, In Paul's defense, In the New Testament Book of Romans we find "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God",  so I couldnt say you'd find a social revolution   from anyone who had such a teaching. In the New Testament book of Philemon it talks about a run-away slave however. So, There is an example of something mentioned in the New Testament writings. America's 16th  President Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation proclamation it is not. However, in all fairness, it could be argued it was on the way to by the precedent it set. Admittedly,That is decidedly taking the best of the tradition. And seeing the good, instead of the bad. In deference to the board, One could also argue, the Bible in a very twisted reading was partially responsible for the later European Inquistion. But, I dont think torture is exactingly loving thy neighbor. And, This from someone who is all gushy 'love' so what can I say.

~Dana

p.s. -- I am going out of my way here Lee. Way way out of my way on this. Appreciate it, K?

 


  I have a dream

  "As we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead. We cannot turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied, as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating "For Whites Only". We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. Some of you have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.

Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair.

I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today.

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.

This is our hope. This is the faith that I go back to the South with. With this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with a new meaning, "My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring."

And if America is to be a great nation this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania!

Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!

Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California!

But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!

Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!

Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

 ~ Martin Luther King

  (Sorry, quirky sense of humor)