You go first, how long will this continue.

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You go first, how long will this continue.

Once again the fighting has started up again in Palistine. You get pee shooter rockets, accusations that Hammas is using the population as human sheilds. You get Isreal over reacting. And death and continued fighting on both sides. When is the nation crap and religious crap and  politics going to stop?

Every decade since I was born in 66 this has been an issue. I am so sick of this shit and neither side is getting anywhere. Palistine has to give up on it's theocratic politics, and self police and get the violent people out of it's population. Isrial needs to give up on it's invasions and settlements.

It sickens me that people don't get tired of war and violence. How many humans on either side have to die before it becomes clear that it is futile? Neither side is gong anywhere. Humans are involved on both sides.

There was a time when someone could make a case that they were on the right side of history. But I do not see that. All I see is both sides playing victime lo9oking for excuses for more violence. I wish the international community would step in and settle this with peace keeping forces. Palistinians should not live in a prison, their every day civiliians should not be starved to death. But at the same time they also should not be held hostage by those in power.

Isreal needs to give up on a Jewish state and simply be a westerinized secular state. Palistinians need to purge their rulers of the theocrats and zealots. All labels aside flesh is flesh and death is death and this has been going on for far too long and has affected the entire global community for fart too long.

I am tired of the excuses. Both sides are baging their heads against the wall and getting nowhere simply pissing the other side off more. Is a boarder or a tradition or label so important as to fail to realize that in the end when someone dies on either side, you are STILL killing another human being.

 

We are mpt ;;ovomg om any nobal age of conquest anymore. The world is round, not flat. What you do Palistinians to Isreal has an affect on the world. What you do Isreal to Palistinians has an affect on the world. The selfishness and war sickens me because it seems to be nothing more than a cry for attention trying to get the rest of the world to side with one side.

 

PLEASE FUCKING STOP! You are just two groups of people on a populated planet of 7 billion. Please tell me what right either of you have to turn our planet into your childish game of capture the flag. It is my hope that the international commun9ity instead of chosing sides, SHAMES both sides int o cooperations.

 

There has been no end to this shit and I am beyond caring at this point as an outsider who has no horse in the race. This all stems from evolution and nothing more. We side as humans with that which we are familure with and defend it from outside threats. The problem is that there is an utter failure of the WORLD, not just both sides, BUT THE WORLD, to put enough pressure on both sides.

 

ENOUGH! What right does either side after all this and no end in sight have to cry "poor me". Reea;;y? You'd both take a scorched earth policy and drag the region and possibly the entire world int a war over what?

 

There should be no two state solution. I am at the point where I think both of you need to have your asses kicked, your leaders arrested and repl,aced with sane secular leaders.

 

Regardless of which side I lean to, I am not going to take sides when clearly both sides are ussing the same stupid tactics that simply perpetuate this needless conflict.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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 You should say: PLEASE

 You should say:

 

PLEASE STOP FUCKING.

 

The problem is too many people needing too few available resources. The only answer is a cultural change where people have fewer children or having governments force family size restrictions on them.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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EXC wrote: You should

EXC wrote:

 You should say:

 

PLEASE STOP FUCKING.

 

The problem is too many people needing too few available resources. The only answer is a cultural change where people have fewer children or having governments force family size restrictions on them.

Don't think this is a resource issue as there was never anything there worth having (including real estate). This is a pissing contest over whose deity gave who the sacred sand.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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This is a classic example of

This is a classic example of the Hatfields vs. the McCoys.

Neither fucking side knows who started it or why they are fighting. They just know to keep killing each other.

 

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jcgadfly wrote:EXC

jcgadfly wrote:

EXC wrote:

 You should say:

 

PLEASE STOP FUCKING.

 

The problem is too many people needing too few available resources. The only answer is a cultural change where people have fewer children or having governments force family size restrictions on them.

Don't think this is a resource issue as there was never anything there worth having (including real estate). This is a pissing contest over whose deity gave who the sacred sand.

also, you can bet the israeli politicians will never let it go because it's better to be powerful in a fucking shithole that drains enormous resources just to keep it inhabitable, than to be relatively anonymous in a pleasant country where life comes more easily.

just look at exiled dictators like bokassa and amin, who lived lavishly on embezzled treasuries in countries like france, but still dreamed of returning in triumph to the cesspools of drought, famine, and AIDS they left behind.  further proof that seemingly limitless wealth is no substitute for power.

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 The atheist has no right

 The atheist has no right to claim that the atrocities of war are evil without using a Christian worldview.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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 The atheist has no right

 The atheist has no right to claim that the atrocities of war are evil without using a Christian worldview.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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jcgadfly wrote: Don't think

jcgadfly wrote:

 

Don't think this is a resource issue as there was never anything there worth having (including real estate). This is a pissing contest over whose deity gave who the sacred sand.

Then why so much outrage over 'Israeli' settlements in 'Palestinian' lands?

There is a competition for survival. Religion is an ancillary issue. Religion is used as an excuse for violent behaviors on both sides. Religion is a convenient way to avoid the real issue of resource competition and instead justify one's violent behavior and overbreeding.

 

It all goes back to Father Abraham being unable to keep it in his pants. The Israelis have actually upped their output of babies in response to the high Palestinian birthrate.

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/israels-jewish-birthrate-grows/2011/12/09/

The Arab birthrate is still much higher than the Jewish.

http://samsonblinded.org/news/arab-birth-rate-far-outstrips-jewish-rate-26310

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Lee2216 wrote: The atheist

Lee2216 wrote:

 The atheist has no right to claim that the atrocities of war are evil without using a Christian worldview.

You mean the Christian worldview that concerns that warmongering cretin in the book you worship?

The Christian worldview worships war and atrocities - why should I listen to you?

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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EXC wrote:jcgadfly

EXC wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

 

Don't think this is a resource issue as there was never anything there worth having (including real estate). This is a pissing contest over whose deity gave who the sacred sand.

Then why so much outrage over 'Israeli' settlements in 'Palestinian' lands?

There is a competition for survival. Religion is an ancillary issue. Religion is used as an excuse for violent behaviors on both sides. Religion is a convenient way to avoid the real issue of resource competition and instead justify one's violent behavior and overbreeding.

 

It all goes back to Father Abraham being unable to keep it in his pants. The Israelis have actually upped their output of babies in response to the high Palestinian birthrate.

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/israels-jewish-birthrate-grows/2011/12/09/

The Arab birthrate is still much higher than the Jewish.

http://samsonblinded.org/news/arab-birth-rate-far-outstrips-jewish-rate-26310

 

Because the Israelis believe that Yahweh gave them the sacred sand and no one else can have it?

It's not an ancillary issue to these morons.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Lee2216 wrote: The atheist

Lee2216 wrote:

 The atheist has no right to claim that the atrocities of war are evil without using a Christian worldview.

Who is going to enforce this rule? Is this Mr. Invisible's rule or your rule?

If you're going to have rules, you need to use deadly force to enforce it. Otherwise, it's pretty meaningless.

In the OT, Israelis are commanded to commit war atrocities like genocide, infanticide and rape. The Christian worldview is that these were not evil acts because "God told them to do it". So actually a Christian can't claim something evil or good, they can only claim if the god of the bible would approve or disapprove.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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jcgadfly wrote: Lee2216

jcgadfly wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

 The atheist has no right to claim that the atrocities of war are evil without using a Christian worldview.

You mean the Christian worldview that concerns that warmongering cretin in the book you worship?

The Christian worldview worships war and atrocities - why should I listen to you? 

 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Matthew 5:43-44

That sure is warmongering and worshiping war and atrocities ain't it Jc  

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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EXC wrote:In the OT,

EXC wrote:

In the OT, Israelis are commanded to commit war atrocities like genocide, infanticide and rape. The Christian worldview is that these were not evil acts because "God told them to do it". So actually a Christian can't claim something evil or good, they can only claim if the god of the bible would approve or disapprove.

 

So without using my worldview why is genocide, infanticide and rape evil?

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:So without

Lee2216 wrote:

So without using my worldview why is genocide, infanticide and rape evil?

Surely another theist is not going to bring up another "without a god their is no morality" argument AGAIN ?

So,are you telling me, the only thing that is keeping you from committing acts of genocide, infanticide, rape and all other things is a god ? In other words, if you found out god was not real, you would actually be out there participating in all of these things right ?

Last time I checked, neither Israel or Palestine are flying their flags under banners of Atheism, in case you hadn't noticed.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

 The atheist has no right to claim that the atrocities of war are evil without using a Christian worldview.

You mean the Christian worldview that concerns that warmongering cretin in the book you worship?

The Christian worldview worships war and atrocities - why should I listen to you? 

 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Matthew 5:43-44

That sure is warmongering and worshiping war and atrocities ain't it Jc  

Hi, cherry picker.

Would you like to look at the rest of the Bible now? It would be enlightening for you as it would likely be the first time you'd read the thing.

How about, say, the majority of the Pentateuch where God told Israel to destroy people utterly.  Or how about this little jewel from your boy in Luke 19:

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

You need just a bit more in your arsenal to combat the words in your self contradictory book-god.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Lee2216 wrote:EXC wrote:In

Lee2216 wrote:

EXC wrote:

In the OT, Israelis are commanded to commit war atrocities like genocide, infanticide and rape. The Christian worldview is that these were not evil acts because "God told them to do it". So actually a Christian can't claim something evil or good, they can only claim if the god of the bible would approve or disapprove.

 

So without using my worldview why is genocide, infanticide and rape evil?

Because it harms other members of society.  Does that mean my morals are better than yours because you need a God to tell you not to do stuff you should know not to do?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Lee2216 wrote:The atheist

Lee2216 wrote:

The atheist has no right to claim that the atrocities of war are evil without using a Christian worldview.

Please enlighten us as to why Christianity is the only legitimate source of morality.  Oh, before you do that, could you explain to me your stance on hell?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20

So, you think all atheists are lying when they tell you they don't think your God is real?

 

 


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Lee2216 wrote:So without

Lee2216 wrote:

So without using my worldview why is genocide, infanticide and rape evil?

"Atheists are routinely asked how people will know not to rape and murder without religion telling them not to do it, especially a religion that backs up the orders with threats of hell. Believers, listen to me carefully when I say this: When you use this argument, you terrify atheists. We hear you saying that the only thing standing between you and Ted Bundy is a flimsy belief in a supernatural being made up by pre-literate people trying to figure out where the rain came from. This is not very reassuring if you’re trying to argue from a position of moral superiority."— Amanda Marcotte

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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the harbingers of soap-box Xians ???

the harbingers of soap-box Xians


    Lee's is a small world.  'Your Worldview'? To Note, Any discussion can be talk of at a deeper level. For example, Look at what a kid's movie by Jim Henson spawned:
   Originally Back in '83, Henson's movie centers around a giant magical crystalline Gem that has a large flaw and crystal shard missing in it. The two primary characters of the movie are Gelflings (think over-sized fairies). Jen heads out for the territories, he meets Kira, who’s a girl Gelflling, and her dog Fizzgig. They fall in love — hardly surprising, since they are the last two Gelflings left on the planet. What is surprising is that Jen, once he’s hooked up with Kira, and about half-way through the running time, literally stumbles across an ancient Gelfling temple, which tells him everything he needs to know about his destiny. And your humble correspondent hangs his head in shame. For much of the "meaning" was lost on the average movie-goer.
  The eastern dualist conceptions are marked in the film, to mention. The Skekses, a race of ancients, represent the left hand path of severity and cruelty, control and empire, while the “gentle mystics” are supposed to represent the “gentle ways of natural wizards.” The Skekses, then, are harbingers of technology and power – they harness the Dark Crystal for the purpose of advanced control mechanisms and even brainwashing (yes, brainwashing), seen as literally dark. While the mystics are purported to be in tune with nature and the forest. The Mystics, as is worth noting, chant the Buddhist “Om,” further reinforcing the eastern dualist religious conceptions, shown as white; while the Skekses are busy enacting the “Ceremony of the Sun” for the passing of the Emperor, which brings to mind ancient Egyptian theology, and it’s identification of Pharoah as son of Ra.
 For this “aeon,” the chosen “avatar” is Jen, the last (he thinks) of an older race of beings in the storyline. Again, similar notions appear in the charlatanry of occultist Madame Blavatsky, whose theosophical sect taught that different ages produce different “avatars” such as Moses, Buddha, and Jesus, who are all appointed “prophets” of God  according to theosophy. Further, when the Mystics, who are also dying, pass away, their bodies disappear, while the Skekses apparently do correspondingly. The Mystic who care for Jen disappears when he dies, echoing Greek ideas (as when Oedipus dies), or as when Obi Wan Kenobi does the same. The idea being that matter is crude and base, and must be transcended for the “good” of spirit. Again, the classical eastern and gnostic notions of dualism arise to the fore.
  As with other films reviewed and analyzed here, there is also the idea of a lost technology or power that the crystal possesses from a former age. The Skekses, presently in possession of the crystal, have harnessed it for the purpose of extracting the life essence from the slave race, whose wills they remove through brainwashing. This appears to be a critique of the notion of power mad elitists and imperialists, who parasitically thrive on the lives of the dumbed-down masses, and who have their wills and potentialities removed through mass control and brainwashing. However, it stops far short of being an actual critique of command and control power elites, since all the film really does is demonstrated to a young, ignorant audience how the “system” itself works.
 Unfortunately, most people can only see things in a one-dimensional fashion, and thus are unable to read the narrative on any deeper level than a simple children’s story, when in reality, it is presenting an entire worldview of managed opposition and dialectics.
 As it turns out, Jen must go on the cliché hero’s quest to restore the shard to the crystal before the Great Conjunction, resulting in the end of that “world,” or aeon. Jen first visits an astrologer named Aughra, who informs him that “End, beginning, all the same. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.” Aughra presents a pagan, cyclical view of the world, as opposed to the biblical idea of time being linear, with a definite beginning and end. By the time Jen reaches the castle of the Skekses, however, the focus turns from the magic and astrology of Aughra (which, interestingly, sounds like augur, one who practices divination from watching birds), to the science and technology of the Skekses who will meet the magic of the Jen and the mystics. Yet another duality will attempt to be reconciled – in the Great Conjunction.
 As Jen found a female of his race named Kira who is able to summon the powers of nature. Thus once again Jen, Kira, and the Mystics represent one half of the dialectic in opposition to the imperial and technologically minded Skekses who, we find out, are in fact extracting essences and brainwashing creatures for the purpose of discovering immortality. Aughra tells Jen that when the Skekses complete their ritual and the Conjunction of the suns occurs, the Skekses will have “power over the stars.” The Skekses are thus after immortality and godhood, and we see in this scene a striking pyramidal image with an eye when Jen places the shard back into the crystal. Here the story is imaging the actual world, where the elites truly try to conquer death through technology via transhumanism.
 However, that is not all. The film ends with the Mystics arriving on the scene, and actually melding with the dreaded Skekses into a new, higher race of gods. So the supposed good and evil principles, we are told, are no different. In fact, that they were was an illusion, or a mere necessity. In reality, the Mystics were one side of the coin, and the evil Skekses, the other side. The “truth” was a Hegelian synthesis of the two principles into a higher godlike being. The world was previously split, and once the Mystics and Skekses unite, we learn that pantheism was true all along – “We are all part of each other,” the new god beings pontificate. The Dark Crystal itself is now transformed, too, into the “Crystal of Truth.” The new god beings ascend, and tell Jen and Kira to “make the world in the image of the Crystal’s light.” We then see the “new world” as an Edenic paradise.
 Thus, in order for the world of duality and opposition to be “fixed,” the film would have us understand that there is no good or evil, and that self-refuting pantheism is the case. The dualities and opposition were “necessary” to overcome and produce the “higher” evolutionary synthesis. In short, classical pagan dialectics is at work. However, what Henson presents is not the case. The dualities and dialectics are not transcended through denying them, nor by saying they are all one. In fact, as I have argued for a while, it is precisely the acceptance of pantheism and it’s cousin, dualism, and other such pagan conceptions like cyclical time which are themselves the trap! Without enlightenment to the fact that these are self-refuting, contradictory, and impossible systems of thought – systems taught by some eastern religions  and in gnosticism, for example (says the reviewer), one does remain caught in the dialectics.
 



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harleysportster wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

 without using my worldview

 

 


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danatemporary wrote:Look at

danatemporary wrote:
Look at what a kid's movie by Jim Henson spawned:

   Originally Back in '83, Henson's movie centers around a giant magical crystalline Gem that has a large flaw and crystal shard missing in it. The two primary characters of the movie are Gelflings (think over-sized fairies). Jen heads out for the territories, he meets Kira, who’s a girl Gelflling, and her dog Fizzgig. They 

 

http://youtu.be/s9I9wJsRFOk

 

 

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

-Scott Adams


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Lee2216 wrote:So without

Lee2216 wrote:

So without using my worldview why is genocide, infanticide and rape evil?

 

  In the worldview of most Christians, genocide, infanticide and rape are not evil.  (  They are some of God's favorite tools for behavior modification against the ancient Hebrew's neighboring "pagans" tribes )

So, in the final analyses, killing men, women and children is not a bad thing as long as God told you to do it. 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination." Voltaire ( 1694-1778 )


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Lee needs to be on youtube

Lee needs to be on youtube with this question. Then he/she/it/they'd be up for potholer54's QQQQQ award.

The award that goes to the person that asks the most easily answered question that "no atheist can answer".

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

So without using my worldview why is genocide, infanticide and rape evil?

 

  In the worldview of most Christians, genocide, infanticide and rape are not evil.  (  They are some of God's favorite tools for behavior modification against the ancient Hebrew's neighboring "pagans" tribes )

So, in the final analyses, killing men, women and children is not a bad thing as long as God told you to do it. 

Creepy thought isn't it ? Being around people that take orders from the invisible realm. There's no telling what type of idealized aggression it could come up with.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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To Lee2216:I was actually

To Lee2216:

I was actually able to find your stance on hell from one of your earlier posts:

Lee2216 wrote:

But, unfortunately you won't be just dead. You too will have a resurrection body but unbelievers will be in Hell for eternity.

Since you worship a God you believe would allow people to be tortured forever, your thoughts on matters of morality are of no value and should be ignored.

 


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Lee2216 wrote:So without

Lee2216 wrote:

So without using my worldview why is genocide, infanticide and rape evil?

As a person with hedonistic values, I don't believe in the concept of 'evil' per say. I would call them highly uncooperative and destructive behaviors. This leads to a lot of death and human misery which I find highly distasteful especially. But I know we live in a world where others are victims. When no one does anything to stop it, the same could happen to me which I would find extremely distasteful. My values are that humans should participate in cooperation to maximize pleasure over pain.

But your religious notions of morality do nothing to make the situation better, but only make it worse. That is why this Jew vs. Muslim vs. Christian fighting just goes on with no end in sight unless people become more rational than religious.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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I s'pose

Lee2216 wrote:

EXC wrote:

In the OT, Israelis are commanded to commit war atrocities like genocide, infanticide and rape. The Christian worldview is that these were not evil acts because "God told them to do it". So actually a Christian can't claim something evil or good, they can only claim if the god of the bible would approve or disapprove.

 

So without using my worldview why is genocide, infanticide and rape evil?

 

I ought to be bothered drawing myself up to my full height and asking you for your objective explanation of morality, in depth. But I can't be bothered listening to you quote the bible like it actually makes sense. Your contention that without god we'd all be murdering/fucking/babies is pretty much the sort of vile ad hominem we expect from fundamentalist christians without a clue.

But yeah. You know. Before jesus, people just flat out murdered each other and screwed each others wives and sisters and girlfriends and daughters and mothers and get this: no one gave a single shit. In fact the victims and their families probably liked it. You halfwit knob. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Great

 

Lee2216 wrote:

The atheist has no right to claim that the atrocities of war are evil without using a Christian worldview.

 

At long last we have another christian moron to beat up on. Please define evil, Lee. Don't be subjective. Please don't claim on the basis of no proof, that evil is anything that goes against the subjective teachings of a 'god'. And if you plan to appeal to the authority of 'god', define god first. Just so as we know what the hell you are talking about. 

Presently it sounds like you are asserting that the arbitrary application of one human label (god) is responsible for the existence of another arbitrary human label (morality). The first label attempts to anthropomorphize the unknowable, the second serves to identify a particular suite of human behaviours without explaining their nature.

I assume you propose morality is a universal constant stemming from god, not a group of human behaviours vital to our survival. Given your objective assertion relates to objective human behaviour, objective evidence please. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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 Still waiting for an

 Still waiting for an atheist here to answer my question without using a Christian worldview. I need somebody here  to tell me why war or murder is evil and based on what authority? I'm waiting for an honest discussion without the ad hominem attacks. Thank you.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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If we could stop (stop for a minute)

Nu 27

 Necessitates a reappraisal  about the number of world-views are found on this earth.  If you dont mind, setting this aside for a brief moment, what is your actual purpose in asking this ?  The Presumption is this is some way for the lost to be found, am I right ?


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Lee2216 wrote: Still

Lee2216 wrote:

 Still waiting for an atheist here to answer my question without using a Christian worldview. I need somebody here  to tell me why war or murder is evil and based on what authority? I'm waiting for an honest discussion without the ad hominem attacks. Thank you.

Then you haven't been looking - several answers have been given to you.

Such actions are detrimental to the functioning of a society. As your God rather enjoys his little genocides my position definitely doesn't use his worldview.

Even the Golden Rule was an old concept before anyone had dreamed up Christians or Jews.

Why do I need an authority beyond myself to claim that these actions are wrong? Are you jealous that I don't need one while you fear that you would become a rampaging murderous rapist without one?

I wouldn't mind seeing you in an honest discussion either. Fist, though, you have to show an interest in reading the answers you've been given

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Then you

jcgadfly wrote:

Then you haven't been looking - several answers have been given to you.

 

   Lee is being careful to avoid falling into his own trap.

 

jcgadfly wrote:
  As your God rather enjoys his little genocides my position definitely doesn't use his worldview.

 

   As was already pointed out Lee,  the Hebrews' indiscriminate killing of men, women and children ( ie, genocide ) was repeatedly commanded by God to punish the pagan tribes.  I'm sure Lee will have no qualms about rationalizing God's murderous behavior and lecturing us with the typical Christian double-talk.  If God wants to kill infants then it must be moral, right ?

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing you in an honest discussion either. Fist, though, you have to show an interest in reading the answers you've been given

 

    But that would wouldn't be as much fun for Lee. 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination." Voltaire ( 1694-1778 )


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This assertion

Lee2216 wrote:

 Still waiting for an atheist here to answer my question without using a Christian worldview. I need somebody here  to tell me why war or murder is evil and based on what authority? I'm waiting for an honest discussion without the ad hominem attacks. Thank you.

 

is ad hominem, Lee. Why am I not surprised you can't see it. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Please objectively define the terms

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Still waiting for an atheist here to answer my question without using a Christian worldview. I need somebody here  to tell me why war or murder is evil and based on what authority? I'm waiting for an honest discussion without the ad hominem attacks. Thank you.

 

God

Morality

Evil

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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jcgadfly wrote:Then you

jcgadfly wrote:
Then you haven't been looking - several answers have been given to you.

Yes I have, several answers have been given using the Christian worldview. The question I asked was without using a Christian worldview why is murder or war evil? Nobody here has answered without using a Christian worldview.

jcgadfly wrote:
Such actions are detrimental to the functioning of a society. As your God rather enjoys his little genocides my position definitely doesn't use his worldview.
 

Why are such actions detrimental? You can't logically claim they are detrimental without using a Christian worldview.

jcgadfly wrote:
Even the Golden Rule was an old concept before anyone had dreamed up Christians or Jews.

I agree, the Golden Rule was here before Christians and Jews were. This is not a concept but a law that was not created by man or any tribe or tongue or nation but comes directly from the mouth of God. 

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12)

jcgadfly wrote:
Why do I need an authority beyond myself to claim that these actions are wrong?

If all moral views are equally valid, then do we have the right to punish anyone? In order to say that something is wrong, we must first have a standard by which we weigh right and wrong in order to make a judgment.

 

 

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Such actions are detrimental to the functioning of a society. As your God rather enjoys his little genocides my position definitely doesn't use his worldview.
 

Why are such actions detrimental? You can't logically claim they are detrimental without using a Christian worldview. 

Oh don't be silly - why don't lions eat the cubs of others? It would provide an easy source of nourishment for them.. Do Lions have a Christian world view?

Why don't Amazon tribesmen kill and eat the children of other tribe members, despite never having heard of Christianity?

 

The answer is simple - because by NOT doing so makes the strength of the group higher, and thus all members are more likely to survive. You can't claim a Christian world view is the cause when the same moralistic behaviour is present in those who've never come into contact with Christianity.


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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Then you haven't been looking - several answers have been given to you.

Yes I have, several answers have been given using the Christian worldview. The question I asked was without using a Christian worldview why is murder or war evil? Nobody here has answered without using a Christian worldview.

jcgadfly wrote:
Such actions are detrimental to the functioning of a society. As your God rather enjoys his little genocides my position definitely doesn't use his worldview.
 

Why are such actions detrimental? You can't logically claim they are detrimental without using a Christian worldview.

jcgadfly wrote:
Even the Golden Rule was an old concept before anyone had dreamed up Christians or Jews.

I agree, the Golden Rule was here before Christians and Jews were. This is not a concept but a law that was not created by man or any tribe or tongue or nation but comes directly from the mouth of God. 

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12)

jcgadfly wrote:
Why do I need an authority beyond myself to claim that these actions are wrong?

If all moral views are equally valid, then do we have the right to punish anyone? In order to say that something is wrong, we must first have a standard by which we weigh right and wrong in order to make a judgment.

 

 


“Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself.” - Confucius

It was around way before anyone thought of a Christian worldview. This disqualifies it from being an original Christian worldview.

In fact, it came before anyone dreamed up Yahweh so it didn't come from your God's mouth.

Why are such actions detrimental? Did you really ask this? You can't see that destroying the individuals in a society kills a society?

I didn't say that all moral views are equally valid. I asked you why I needed to have an supernatural authority outside myself to say that something is wrong for me. sorry for not being specific earlier. For myself, following the rules of a functioning society is sufficient.

Now answer my questions - why do you assume that you would become a raping, murdering barbarian if you don't have a supernatural authority telling you not to be one? More importantly, why do you want to substitute God's morals for yours when yours are likely better?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
Even the Golden Rule was an old concept before anyone had dreamed up Christians or Jews.

I agree, the Golden Rule was here before Christians and Jews were. This is not a concept but a law that was not created by man or any tribe or tongue or nation but comes directly from the mouth of God. 

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12)

This is a circular reasoning. You're backdating your god to before his conception, and then attributing 'Christian Worldviews' with that god, which is based on a Christian Worldview. You're then following it up with a Post Hoc fallacy by saying the humanist worldview must therefore come from the Christian Worldview, because it preceded it.

 

The reality is that Christian worldview and humanist worldview both stem independently from a common ancestor - the golden rule (which itself derives from beneficial survival rates when used).

 

EDIT: I second the request to justify your morality - are you only not a murderous raging savage because you're scared of your god's laws? If not... hmmm why are God's laws necessary?

 

 


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GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:
You can't claim a Christian world view is the cause when the same moralistic behaviour is present in those who've never come into contact with Christianity.

Actually I can claim the Christian worldview as the cause. It's irrelevant if they have never been exposed to Christianity. Every human being has a conscience that bears witness to objective truth and morality that has been placed there by God. Scripture testifies to this fact. Notice verse 14 says "do by nature what the law requires."

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216

Lee2216 wrote:

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:
You can't claim a Christian world view is the cause when the same moralistic behaviour is present in those who've never come into contact with Christianity.

Actually I can claim the Christian worldview as the cause. It's irrelevant if they have never been exposed to Christianity. Every human being has a conscience that bears witness to objective truth and morality that has been placed there by God. Scripture testifies to this fact. Notice verse 14 says "do by nature what the law requires."

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

In other words, you can lie for Jesus. Isn't Pauline Christianity wonderful?

See, you can't claim a Christian worldview if people who have no knowledge of your God, show animosity toward it or lived before he was dreamed up still do the things that you claim you can't do without your God. Are you saying you don't have a conscience?

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:It was around

jcgadfly wrote:
It was around way before anyone thought of a Christian worldview. This disqualifies it from being an original Christian worldview.

In fact, it came before anyone dreamed up Yahweh so it didn't come from your God's mouth.

No it isn't disqualified by any means. I don't know what God you are speaking of, but my God is eternal therefore logically nothing can come before or after Him. If you have a conscience then you have a Christian worldview whether you believe in Him or not and scripture testifies to that fact.

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

jcgadlfy wrote:
Why are such actions detrimental? Did you really ask this? You can't see that destroying the individuals in a society kills a society?

Your using a Christian worldview to answer my question. Using your materialistic worldview, why is it bad to murder? I don't think you can answer without borrowing my worldview.

jcgadfly wrote:
I didn't say that all moral views are equally valid. I asked you why I needed to have an supernatural authority outside myself to say that something is wrong for me. sorry for not being specific earlier. For myself, following the rules of a functioning society is sufficient.

I don't know how else to respond other than to say your logic is self-contradictory. If you don't need an authority outside yourself to tell you that something is wrong why are you following the rules of society? Aren't the rules of said society outside yourself?

jcgadfly wrote:
Now answer my questions - why do you assume that you would become a raping, murdering barbarian if you don't have a supernatural authority telling you not to be one? More importantly, why do you want to substitute God's morals for yours when yours are likely better?

Without God it's impossible to even be a raping, murdering barbarian. Where there is no law there is no transgression. If you were to murder someone Jc there would have to be an authority higher than you that established a law that said "you shall not commit murder." If there is no law there is no such thing as murder being wrong. My morals are not my own. Morals are objective not subjective. If subjective, then we have no business telling anyone their wrong which would nullify any need for the judicial system. Don't you see the problem with relativism?

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote:jcgadfly

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:
It was around way before anyone thought of a Christian worldview. This disqualifies it from being an original Christian worldview.

In fact, it came before anyone dreamed up Yahweh so it didn't come from your God's mouth.

No it isn't disqualified by any means. I don't know what God you are speaking of, but my God is eternal therefore logically nothing can come before or after Him. If you have a conscience then you have a Christian worldview whether you believe in Him or not and scripture testifies to that fact.

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

jcgadlfy wrote:
Why are such actions detrimental? Did you really ask this? You can't see that destroying the individuals in a society kills a society?

Your using a Christian worldview to answer my question. Using your materialistic worldview, why is it bad to murder? I don't think you can answer without borrowing my worldview.

jcgadfly wrote:
I didn't say that all moral views are equally valid. I asked you why I needed to have an supernatural authority outside myself to say that something is wrong for me. sorry for not being specific earlier. For myself, following the rules of a functioning society is sufficient.

I don't know how else to respond other than to say your logic is self-contradictory. If you don't need an authority outside yourself to tell you that something is wrong why are you following the rules of society? Aren't the rules of said society outside yourself?

jcgadfly wrote:
Now answer my questions - why do you assume that you would become a raping, murdering barbarian if you don't have a supernatural authority telling you not to be one? More importantly, why do you want to substitute God's morals for yours when yours are likely better?

Without God it's impossible to even be a raping, murdering barbarian. Where there is no law there is no transgression. If you were to murder someone Jc there would have to be an authority higher than you that established a law that said "you shall not commit murder." If there is no law there is no such thing as murder being wrong. My morals are not my own. Morals are objective not subjective. If subjective, then we have no business telling anyone their wrong which would nullify any need for the judicial system. Don't you see the problem with relativism?

1. The only proof of your eternal God is a non-eternal book written by his creators. So as your God has a definite beginning he can't be eternal. The Kalam argument so many of you love to use bites you in the butt here.

2. Not true for the same reasons as before - not killing the members of your society being a good idea was old when your God was young.

3. The authority of human society is not outside of me as I am a member of human society. It comes from inside society by mutual consent.

4. I am an authority that says that murder is wrong - that's why I don't do it. Like minded humans have codified punishments for those who wish to be outside of society and do such things (these relations are entered into so they can continue as a society).

5. Ok - now that you have set yourself outside of the social laws that bind humanity together we can no longer have a serious discussion. You have contradicted yourself - you use Exodus to claim the law "Thou shalt not murder" and then apply the edict that Paul gave to the Christian "You are not under the law but under grace... and where there is no law there is no transgression". How can you talk about "objective morals" and not under it? 

6. I don't see why you have a problem with relativism - as a Christian you practice it continually.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Lee2216 wrote:If you have a

Lee2216 wrote:

If you have a conscience then you have a Christian worldview whether you believe in Him or not and scripture testifies to that fact.

If your God was real, my "God-given" conscience would force me to think Him the most evil being in existence. Why would God give me a conscience that forces me to reject Him?

 


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jcgadfly wrote:In other

jcgadfly wrote:
In other words, you can lie for Jesus. Isn't Pauline Christianity wonderful?

I forgot Jc, you love to throw out the Pauline Christianity line. Scripture let's us know the truth. Isn't it wonderful that we can know the truth.

11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:11-12)

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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blacklight915 wrote:If your

blacklight915 wrote:
If your God was real, my "God-given" conscience would force me to think Him the most evil being in existence. Why would God give me a conscience that forces me to reject Him?

God doesn't force you to reject Him. You do that all on your own.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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blacklight915 wrote:Lee2216

blacklight915 wrote:

Lee2216 wrote:

If you have a conscience then you have a Christian worldview whether you believe in Him or not and scripture testifies to that fact.

If your God was real, my "God-given" conscience would force me to think Him the most evil being in existence. Why would God give me a conscience that forces me to reject Him?

 

And since (according to the word of his God) he is under no law Lee has just admitted that he has no conscience.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Lee2216 wrote:blacklight915

Lee2216 wrote:

blacklight915 wrote:
If your God was real, my "God-given" conscience would force me to think Him the most evil being in existence. Why would God give me a conscience that forces me to reject Him?

God doesn't force you to reject Him. You do that all on your own.

And you have just shown that my morals are better  than your God's because we reject such an evil as himself.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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 Later Jc, it's no use

 Later Jc, it's no use arguing with you. I'm just here to tell you the truth and your starting to act childish and you have no intention of having an honest discussion. It's really sad.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20


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Lee2216 wrote: Later Jc,

Lee2216 wrote:

 Later Jc, it's no use arguing with you. I'm just here to tell you the truth and your starting to act childish and you have no intention of having an honest discussion. It's really sad.

Yep. It's absolutely useless to argue with someone like you who insists he has the truth in spite of being shown by his own book that he's completely wrong. You could have admitted that you just wanted to preach and truly didn't care about the answers - shame you felt you had to lie for Jesus.

Blind faith is really sad. I hope someday you grow out of it.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Lee2216 wrote:No it isn't

Lee2216 wrote:

No it isn't disqualified by any means. I don't know what God you are speaking of, but my God is eternal therefore logically nothing can come before or after Him.

Prove your god is eternal. All gods are subservient to my god, therefore, logically your god is my gods slave. I love how you theists always appeal to logic ignoring both formal logic and that even if you manage to form a logical statement that all of your premises must be proven true in order for the conclusion to be true. 

 

Lee2216 wrote:
 

If you have a conscience then you have a Christian worldview whether you believe in Him or not and scripture testifies to that fact.

What exactly is "Christian worldview" seems like in your posts that "Christian worldview" is being used to describe any system of morals at all. In which case why not say "you must have morals to have morals"? What makes "Christian morality" different from "morality"?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

jcgadlfy wrote:
Why are such actions detrimental? Did you really ask this? You can't see that destroying the individuals in a society kills a society?

Your using a Christian worldview to answer my question. Using your materialistic worldview, why is it bad to murder? I don't think you can answer without borrowing my worldview.

What could possibly be more materialistic than saying "I don't do it because it hurts me"?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

I don't know how else to respond other than to say your logic is self-contradictory. If you don't need an authority outside yourself to tell you that something is wrong why are you following the rules of society? Aren't the rules of said society outside yourself?

Because when you don't follow the rules of society, society can do unpleasant things to you that make your life less comfortable (or end it). I can't speak for JC, but personally I break many rules in society- those where I determine that the benefit I get from breaking the rule is worth the risk and potential punishment. I do not believe there is anything inherently moral about laws, although laws are often used as a method of assholes like you to force people to conform to their ideas of morality.

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Without God it's impossible to even be a raping, murdering barbarian. Where there is no law there is no transgression. If you were to murder someone Jc there would have to be an authority higher than you that established a law that said "you shall not commit murder." If there is no law there is no such thing as murder being wrong. My morals are not my own.

So if somehow it was proven conclusively to you that there is no god and everything you believe is moral was simply made up by man, would you start raping and murdering?

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Morals are objective not subjective. If subjective, then we have no business telling anyone their wrong which would nullify any need for the judicial system. Don't you see the problem with relativism?

I don't think I have any business telling people what is wrong. My only business is telling people "If you do X to me, I will do Y to you- so why don't we just make things more pleasant and we both agree not to do X to each other?" If they agree great, if they don't agree then I have to do Y. 

For example, let's say that "kill" is X- So I say to you "If you try to kill me, I am going to lock you in a prison cell for the rest of your life. So let's do this, I will agree not to try to kill you if you agree not to try to kill me." If you agree, we can go about our lives happy. If you don't agree then I am going to throw your ass in jail, or kill you myself. Not something I am eager to do because I am a lazy ass and don't care to go through the effort of a battle or of disposing of your body afterwards. I have no moral problem with killing a human that does not agree to restrain any desire they might have to kill me. The fact is that if we can make mutual agreements not to hurt each other that in the long run we both will live more enjoyable lives- no god necessary.

 

 

I just usually go with my own taste. If I like something, and it happens to be against the law, well, then I might have a problem.- Hunter S. Thompson


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I told you

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Actually I can claim the Christian worldview as the cause. It's irrelevant if they have never been exposed to Christianity. Every human being has a conscience that bears witness to objective truth and morality that has been placed there by God. Scripture testifies to this fact. Notice verse 14 says "do by nature what the law requires."

 

numb nuts would end up basing those first bald assertions about still undefined labels - god, morality, evil, objective truth (lol) on that filthy book. Of course the bible never defines the terms of its assertions, either. Lee is devoid of intellectual integrity. It's a fair bet Lee is also utterly without moral consistency. Funnily enough, Lee thinks this hateful persona is goodness. 

Lee, your unproven contention that without god humans are evil (and presumably deserve to die) is an ad hominem fallacy no doubt served with a fallacy from force chaser. At least when I call you a smug wanker, I know I'm indulging in ad hom. But when you; on the basis of no definitions, proofs or precedents; judge and find guilty the whole human race, you are totally oblivious. It's just pathetic. 

Define your terms, Lee. What do you mean when you say god, morality, evil, objective truth? 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Atheistextremist
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Translates as:

 

Lee2216 wrote:

Later Jc, it's no use arguing with you. I'm just here to tell you the truth and your starting to act childish and you have no intention of having an honest discussion. It's really sad.

 

"I just came here to demand you accept my opinion based on no definitions and no proofs and supported only by the ad hominem fallacies and appeals to force written in the bible." 

 

Yeah, you're right, Lee. You are really sad. Come back and talk to us when you turn into an actual person. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck