The Fall

Damasius
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The Fall

 

I would like to demonstrate thanks to this thread that the concept of the fall is actual and true, and that scientific findings reinforce the need to recognize this as a fact, that we are humans that have fallen from our divine nature and need the way of Christ in order to save ourselves.

First, lest start by brushing a picture of our origins. The first mammal appeared some 70 MYA, in the form of a small nervous rat looking creature. After the extinctions of the dinosaurs about 65 MYA these mammals saw an explosion of their numbers since they were now able to occupy niches vacated by the dinosaurs. 55 to 58 MYA ago the first descendant of what would become the human race appears in the form of the first primate Altiatlasisus Koulchi a small creature foraging in the woods with opposable fingers and a bigger brain. From this development 20 MYA the ancient great apes appear and then go extinct because of dramatic climate change. As we can see today only 5 species managed to survive: Orang-utan, gibbon, chimpanzee, gorilla, and yours truly: humans. It’s interesting to note that we were very lucky and could have never existed because of this climate change. The divergence that leads to humans happens 7 MYA, Toumai, Orrorin and all that.... We know the rest: our ancestors decided to leave the forest for the savannah, Australopithecus and the genre homo... It’s interesting to note that there was allot of trial and errors in ‘’making ‘’ the human race, and if small factors had been different humanity would surely have a way difference visage. Also interesting to note is the fact that our ancestors were not this romanticized picture of noble and fearsome hunters, but instead scavengers and hunters of sick and small animals. 


Once all these facts make their appearance one is bound to be brought back to earth with the ideas we entertain about our divine nature. Pressing questions make their appearance: what kind of fall could have caused us then to be visited by Christ? What form would of this fall taken? What makes human history different from that of any other animal? This is where I stand in. I attempt to give a reasonable answer to these questions so as to reconcile the findings of physical anthropology and the idea of the fall as described in the Bible. First of all we need to ask ourselves what kind of fall we are talking about in the Bible. If we try to reconcile the literal account of the fall with scientific findings then this is impossible, however if we attempt to reconcile the idea of the fall with reality then this is possible and moreover it’s supported by socio-cultural facts. The idea of the fall simply put is that we have want for divine supernatural nature, and that this want won’t go away until we return to God and to the supernatural.

 In almost every culture there is an account of a certain fall, all of these accounts share one thing in common, a want for the spiritual world, for God, to overcome our human nature. May it be in the form of a journey or in the case of Christianity in the form of a savior, the cosmology of every culture has a concept of the fall. Gathering from this similarity of all cultural cosmologies we find that humans have discovered indeed that they have fallen away from a sort of spiritual world in different degrees depending from the cosmology in question. So from facts from the real world we do see that humans believe they fell away from their divine nature. This is attested by cultural facts and also by the history of humanity that far from being this glorious history is this rather banal story way far removed from what we could have imagined. Yet, if we were living in the dark constantly, we should have never realized there was light, and yet as all the cultural cosmologies attest, we did realize that there is light, that is, that we have fallen from our divine nature. Some have alighted on this or that aspect, however I firmly believe that Christianity has gathered all of the relevant details concerning this actual fall. The superiority of the supernatural world over the physical word is then immediately apparent. For if the body , made out of matter had this far from glimmering history, the soul who enabled us to understand our divine quest is of God alone, and it is restless until it rests in him. So in conclusion, we can see that there was and is such a thing as the fall, that is, the fall from our divine nature into this dark and gray material world. The mere facts that humans dotted themselves with cosmologies, which all recognize this fall is a fact that points to the reality of the fall. Anyone has simply to read the myths of any belief system to realize that the fall is present, although in different shapes and sizes, and with different meanings ascribed to it, however the basic fact here is the reality of the fall.

The second point I would like to mention in support of the fall is that we as human are not mere material constructs like robots, or machines, rather we are beings who have a very powerful supernatural dimension to our beings, granted this dimension can negated or denied but it is fact that it exists as a fundamental part of ourselves and has been so throughout the ages. One only has to look at the number of believers in a religion or another versus the tiny number of atheists on our planet, not as an appeal to authority, but rather as an empiric fact of the existence of our spiritual nature. Let me give an example, if a thousand birds were in a huge cage, and 5 of these couldn’t fly, we would certainly

conclude that the 5 who can’t fly are deficient with regards to their nature, this is the same thing here if we compare believers and unbelievers. Spirituality then has been a part of every culture throughout the ages. So it’s only natural that spiritual beings such as us would have alighted upon the reality of our spiritual fall from the higher and most pure realm of spirits.


Thirdly, we can ask ourselves a simple question to find out if we indeed have souls, something to be  same must be identical in all things, so we can ask ourselves are we merely biological entities? Or do we also have a soul. Is the self different from the body? For instance, I can imagine myself having a totally different body, I can imagine myself in the body of a lion, of a sheep even having that of a bird. However I can’t imagine my Body having another body. This means that the self is not the body for then they would be identical and they are not. Let’s think of human cloning here, if it was possible to clone an adult human being in just over an hour, a human being that would be identical to the real subject, would these two be the same? Or would they be different beings. I believe they would be completely different in a way and thus would have different souls. If you would die and have yourself cloned right before the moment of your death, would that new identical to you person be you or would the ‘’self’’ the real you be dead and there stands a completely different and new person? Reflect about that.

 


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Damasius wrote:
AE, do you agree that if free will exists then it cannot be dependant on the physical universe, because if so , in a purely physical world it could not exist since all of our actions would be determined by prior causes ( and we would not have any free will). Therefore it cannot originate in the physical world, free will must originate somewhere else. Hence the argument I brought forth.

1. You still have to make your case before this group takes sides against predestination Christians who hold exactly what you say cannot exist. Take your sectarian battles some place else.

2. Because quantum effects are not deterministic the Newtonian clockwork universe does and can not exist. There is no cause and effect at the quantum level. There is no direction of time either.

Quote:
''in a purely physical world, our actions are solely the product of forces completely beyond our control, and thus we would not have free will.''  Yet we DO have free will, tell me, did you become atheist from a free conscious choice? dont you guys consider yourselves freethinkers?

Eminent Christian thinkers have concluded there can be no free will so again keep your sectarian battles out of here.

As to what you mean by free will, you will have to define that in such a way as for it to be possible to make choices completely independent of all experience including moral teachings. I await your avoidance of your responsibility to define what you are talking about.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Vastet wrote:
Maybe I'm just being a dick and giving the terrorist too much credit. That was the only thing that really stood out to me in your conversation. Most of what the terrorist was saying was jibberish, and most of what you were saying had been said. Still, it was a pretty critical part of the debate, and I'm sure any ref would've deducted points. It's not like the terrorist could have sunk any lower, so more attention was on you when you made that claim.

I have never liked the idea of debate as form gets points. Creationists win debates with evolutionists by audience acclaim. And it appears we have an even presidential race because of the debate format. I can also point out in Roman times the courts were honest in making decisions which included points for the debate quality separate from the facts of the case.

That said, when the major points have been made and are not seriously contested as in seriously continuing to claim an infant should be considered different from a child it has all been said and it devolves to minutae. At which point I tend to walk away as it is rarely interesting trivia. Debate on religion and politics is different from debate on matters of physical fact where the other party has an aversion to them.

The necessity of red meats and animal fats to human growth was in fact demonstrated by tens of millions of people when the post WWII diet of the Japanese became more western and their height did increase six inches in a bit over a generation. By 1980 the case was irrefutable.

I don't mean to refight it here. The man will grow out of eventually although likely never be void of some sort of food fixation.

The one good thing that came out of it for me is an idea for two new products to sell to veggies. All I have to do is find a way to secure a reliable source of enough human breast milk to make butter and cheese to sell to veggies. They should go well with the post partum placenta roast.

I am looking into countries with high infant mortality and ways to preserve breast milk for collection and production. The problem is the two are incompatible so I am thinking of solar powered thermoelectric coolers. The alternative is a standardized cheese recipe that can be started before refrigeration is needed. It most certainly has to be a village product. That gets me to  India and China. As in China they kill off their female births and as breast pumps can prolong lactation and as China produces these coolers already it seems the natural place to start production.

And that summarizes my opinion of veggies.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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blacklight915 wrote:
Damasius wrote:
How is it that the existence of extra terrestials is far more probable?? where is your math? where is your proof?

Well, given the size of the universe, and the fact life arose on this planet, it is likely there is at least one other Earth-like planet out there upon which life arose by processes very similar to those that gave rise to life on Earth.

As for souls, you said "by definition the soul is not of the physical realm , it cant be mesured, weighed, yet it does exist".

Are souls made of nothing? How can souls affect material reality if they aren't made of matter or energy? How can you detect them if they don't affect material reality in any way?

In hindsight, however, I really should have used the word "explainable", instead of "probable".

Do not forget the thousands of existing reports of alien contact. Are we to treat abductees any different from believers? If believers want to be treated differently then it is up to them to make the case. Other than the religious types being much more familiar I cannot see an essential difference between the two.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Vastet
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Intriguingly the practice

Intriguingly the practice you mention in China is going to end in a severe problem when all those boys grow up and there's only like one girl for every twenty boys. > >

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Vastet wrote:
Intriguingly the practice you mention in China is going to end in a severe problem when all those boys grow up and there's only like one girl for every twenty boys. > >

But think of the Judeo-Christian approved bride price. It will be much greater than the price for a pound of DD Cheese.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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I submit

Damasius wrote:

 

I would like to demonstrate thanks to this thread that the concept of the fall is actual and true, and that scientific findings reinforce the need to recognize this as a fact, that we are humans that have fallen from our divine nature and need the way of Christ in order to save ourselves.

First, lest start by brushing a picture of our origins. The first mammal appeared some 70 MYA, in the form of a small nervous rat looking creature. After the extinctions of the dinosaurs about 65 MYA these mammals saw an explosion of their numbers since they were now able to occupy niches vacated by the dinosaurs. 55 to 58 MYA ago the first descendant of what would become the human race appears in the form of the first primate Altiatlasisus Koulchi a small creature foraging in the woods with opposable fingers and a bigger brain. From this development 20 MYA the ancient great apes appear and then go extinct because of dramatic climate change. As we can see today only 5 species managed to survive: Orang-utan, gibbon, chimpanzee, gorilla, and yours truly: humans. It’s interesting to note that we were very lucky and could have never existed because of this climate change. The divergence that leads to humans happens 7 MYA, Toumai, Orrorin and all that.... We know the rest: our ancestors decided to leave the forest for the savannah, Australopithecus and the genre homo... It’s interesting to note that there was allot of trial and errors in ‘’making ‘’ the human race, and if small factors had been different humanity would surely have a way difference visage. Also interesting to note is the fact that our ancestors were not this romanticized picture of noble and fearsome hunters, but instead scavengers and hunters of sick and small animals. 


Once all these facts make their appearance one is bound to be brought back to earth with the ideas we entertain about our divine nature. Pressing questions make their appearance: what kind of fall could have caused us then to be visited by Christ? What form would of this fall taken? What makes human history different from that of any other animal? This is where I stand in. I attempt to give a reasonable answer to these questions so as to reconcile the findings of physical anthropology and the idea of the fall as described in the Bible. First of all we need to ask ourselves what kind of fall we are talking about in the Bible. If we try to reconcile the literal account of the fall with scientific findings then this is impossible, however if we attempt to reconcile the idea of the fall with reality then this is possible and moreover it’s supported by socio-cultural facts. The idea of the fall simply put is that we have want for divine supernatural nature, and that this want won’t go away until we return to God and to the supernatural.

 In almost every culture there is an account of a certain fall, all of these accounts share one thing in common, a want for the spiritual world, for God, to overcome our human nature. May it be in the form of a journey or in the case of Christianity in the form of a savior, the cosmology of every culture has a concept of the fall. Gathering from this similarity of all cultural cosmologies we find that humans have discovered indeed that they have fallen away from a sort of spiritual world in different degrees depending from the cosmology in question. So from facts from the real world we do see that humans believe they fell away from their divine nature. This is attested by cultural facts and also by the history of humanity that far from being this glorious history is this rather banal story way far removed from what we could have imagined. Yet, if we were living in the dark constantly, we should have never realized there was light, and yet as all the cultural cosmologies attest, we did realize that there is light, that is, that we have fallen from our divine nature. Some have alighted on this or that aspect, however I firmly believe that Christianity has gathered all of the relevant details concerning this actual fall. The superiority of the supernatural world over the physical word is then immediately apparent. For if the body , made out of matter had this far from glimmering history, the soul who enabled us to understand our divine quest is of God alone, and it is restless until it rests in him. So in conclusion, we can see that there was and is such a thing as the fall, that is, the fall from our divine nature into this dark and gray material world. The mere facts that humans dotted themselves with cosmologies, which all recognize this fall is a fact that points to the reality of the fall. Anyone has simply to read the myths of any belief system to realize that the fall is present, although in different shapes and sizes, and with different meanings ascribed to it, however the basic fact here is the reality of the fall.

The second point I would like to mention in support of the fall is that we as human are not mere material constructs like robots, or machines, rather we are beings who have a very powerful supernatural dimension to our beings, granted this dimension can negated or denied but it is fact that it exists as a fundamental part of ourselves and has been so throughout the ages. One only has to look at the number of believers in a religion or another versus the tiny number of atheists on our planet, not as an appeal to authority, but rather as an empiric fact of the existence of our spiritual nature. Let me give an example, if a thousand birds were in a huge cage, and 5 of these couldn’t fly, we would certainly

 

conclude that the 5 who can’t fly are deficient with regards to their nature, this is the same thing here if we compare believers and unbelievers. Spirituality then has been a part of every culture throughout the ages. So it’s only natural that spiritual beings such as us would have alighted upon the reality of our spiritual fall from the higher and most pure realm of spirits.

 

 


Thirdly, we can ask ourselves a simple question to find out if we indeed have souls, something to be  same must be identical in all things, so we can ask ourselves are we merely biological entities? Or do we also have a soul. Is the self different from the body? For instance, I can imagine myself having a totally different body, I can imagine myself in the body of a lion, of a sheep even having that of a bird. However I can’t imagine my Body having another body. This means that the self is not the body for then they would be identical and they are not. Let’s think of human cloning here, if it was possible to clone an adult human being in just over an hour, a human being that would be identical to the real subject, would these two be the same? Or would they be different beings. I believe they would be completely different in a way and thus would have different souls. If you would die and have yourself cloned right before the moment of your death, would that new identical to you person be you or would the ‘’self’’ the real you be dead and there stands a completely different and new person? Reflect about that.

 

 

That Christianity is not an endeavor to overcome human nature, but rather one's animal nature. The fall of Adam is a return to animal nature as  the meaning/values of life. There is only these two options, non other is possible. Christianity is the understanding of the tenants needed to make a re-return back to human nature. Adam is one that was the same as all others at that time, but what makes Adam is the understanding of the natural human and animal concepts, and then choosing the Human as the preferred way. The human direction is Adam. Adam is a mental condition opposite the animal. The worlds social problems extend from the preference toward animal mentality and harmful to any society. Civilization is constructed on animal preferences such as force and counter force, greaters and lessors, status acquisition, which cause the upheavals in the societal structure. Police force via civil law  is then needed to control the level of animal activity and behavour of certain types to minimize the harm by regulation of the animal entity.

The only possible thing the world could need saving from are those running it.


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there was no test.

jcgadfly wrote:

What does all this have to do with Yahweh's rigged test in Eden?

That idea is a Euro concoction from not understanding the book and what it's about. They interpreted it in line with their own ideas civil discourse. They adapted the book to their way of thinking. The Adamites were free to be whatever they wished. They merely prefered to return to the animal mind and paid the consequences. If I recall correctly there was no means of punishment, but rather the consequences that we see still today.

The only possible thing the world could need saving from are those running it.


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Old Seer wrote:jcgadfly

Old Seer wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

What does all this have to do with Yahweh's rigged test in Eden?

That idea is a Euro concoction from not understanding the book and what it's about. They interpreted it in line with their own ideas civil discourse. They adapted the book to their way of thinking. The Adamites were free to be whatever they wished. They merely prefered to return to the animal mind and paid the consequences. If I recall correctly there was no means of punishment, but rather the consequences that we see still today.

What do the Adamites have to do with this? They didn't exist till much later and thought they getting naked got them closer to God.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Old Seer wrote:
That Christianity is not an endeavor to overcome human nature, but rather one's animal nature. The fall of Adam is a return to animal nature as  the meaning/values of life. There is only these two options, non other is possible. Christianity is the understanding of the tenants needed to make a re-return back to human nature. Adam is one that was the same as all others at that time, but what makes Adam is the understanding of the natural human and animal concepts, and then choosing the Human as the preferred way. The human direction is Adam. Adam is a mental condition opposite the animal. The worlds social problems extend from the preference toward animal mentality and harmful to any society. Civilization is constructed on animal preferences such as force and counter force, greaters and lessors, status acquisition, which cause the upheavals in the societal structure. Police force via civil law  is then needed to control the level of animal activity and behavour of certain types to minimize the harm by regulation of the animal entity.

Thank you for an excellant example of genuine believer gibberish. I only wish the kids were here to read it.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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jcgadfly wrote:
What do the Adamites have to do with this? They didn't exist till much later and thought they getting naked got them closer to God.

Adamite is a popular European breakfast food.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Brian37
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Damasius wrote:I think and

Damasius wrote:

I think and know as a catholic that the only thing worth having in this life is the contemplation of God and of pure truth, the rest: pleasures, wordly goods, and anything temporal of physical is secondary, if we aim at the earth only, we get neither the earth or heavens, if we aim at the heavens we get the earth trown in!

 

Tell me what would be better than love of God  and eternal supernatural  life, would it be wealth? power? sucess?  Only hope in God can be eternal. Is this world so kind that you may attatch yourself  to it forever?  I think our journey as humans is to detatch ourselves from the physical, so that when death may come it may find us fearless and ready for God! What are your toughts on the purpose of life, is it reproduction? or maximizing ones pleasures? tell me?

You are a Catholic, big deal, so was I.

And this is a petty and stupid bait and switch with "what would be better than eternal life". That is nothing but appeal to fantasy. You wouldn't buy your same appeal to emotion, which is all it is, if say a Muslim or Jew were arging their fantasy afterlife to get you to become a member of their club. And modern monotheism isn't the first in human history to invent a superstitious afterlife. Egyptians had their concepts of an afterlife too yet no one believes that the sun is a thinking god like they did for 3,000 years.

"What could be better" is nothing but "it feels right so go with it". So what, all religions pull this crap.

See if you can spot the pattern.

"What could be better than Allah's heaven?"

"What could be better than Yahweh's heaven?"

"What could be better than Vishnu's heaven?"

And you also insidiously think that by using material things as hostage to shame people who accept reality as it is, into blackmailing them into believing. If a Catholic or Christian or Jew gets wealthy then it is because they are virtuous and have no ill intent. But if an atheist does the same they are greedy. If a Cahtolic or Christian or Muslim are poor, it is goods will. If an atheist is poor it is because they are lazy.

Here is the reality that you and all other claimants of all pet gods don't want to face. There is no afterlife and being rich or being poor will not automatically make someone good or bad. Being a Catholic wont automatically make someone good or bad anymore than being a Muslim will make someone automatically good or bad.

You do not have to buy into any superstitious afterlife, not theirs, not yours, not any claimed by any polytheistic or monotheistic religion claimed now or in human history.

 

The stupid logic is "then humans are gods according to atheists". NO the third option you never consider is 1. HUMANS ARE NOT GODS AND GODS DONT EXIST. If we accept that gods dont exist than we cannot act like gods since no such thing exists.

Appeal to an afterlife is also a bribe, like a parent bribing their kid with a cookie or with Santa. It is when Muslims do it or Jews do it or when you do it. It is an appeal to ignorant fantasy rooted in wishful thinking and credulous myth.

Our class and status and or labels do not change human behavior. Our evolution will always produce both good and bad behavior in all boarders in all labels in all classes. Trying to solve humanity's problems with superstition doesn't work when others do it and you rightfully reject it as a cure, so do not expect us to fall for your fantasy either when you wont and rightfully dont in rejecting the fantacies of others.

 

If you can live without beleiving in Allah or their claimants idea of an afterlife, and you can rightfully reject the Ancient Egyptians claims of their afterlifes, then I have no doubt that you can live without your superstition as well. There is a difference between can, and don't want too. You can but you simply don't want to because your fantasy is more important to you than the truth of reality.

 

But do not expect us to swallow your naked assertion anymore than you would swallow the naked assertions of others with different pet god claims.

 

All you are doing is saying "My fantasy feels good to me". Get in line with all the Muslims and Jews and Hindues who think their afterlife and their gods love them too. Not impressed with appeals to emotion, not when you do it or when anyone does it.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Old Seer wrote:That idea is

Old Seer wrote:

That idea is a Euro concoction from not understanding the book and what it's about.  

 

Damn Euros. Always concocting stuff. 


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Damasius wrote:
I think and know as a catholic that the only thing worth having in this life is the contemplation of God and of pure truth, the rest: pleasures, wordly goods, and anything temporal of physical is secondary, if we aim at the earth only, we get neither the earth or heavens, if we aim at the heavens we get the earth trown in!

Rather you believe as you are the striving child who was told that but who has never achieved it. No matter how hard you have tried you have never achieved the only thing you believe has worth. You consider yourself inferior because of this. And indeed you are inferior.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Damasius wrote:Thirdly, we

Damasius wrote:

Thirdly, we can ask ourselves a simple question to find out if we indeed have souls, something to be  same must be identical in all things, so we can ask ourselves are we merely biological entities? Or do we also have a soul. Is the self different from the body? For instance, I can imagine myself having a totally different body, I can imagine myself in the body of a lion, of a sheep even having that of a bird. However I can’t imagine my Body having another body. This means that the self is not the body for then they would be identical and they are not. Let’s think of human cloning here, if it was possible to clone an adult human being in just over an hour, a human being that would be identical to the real subject, would these two be the same? Or would they be different beings. I believe they would be completely different in a way and thus would have different souls. If you would die and have yourself cloned right before the moment of your death, would that new identical to you person be you or would the ‘’self’’ the real you be dead and there stands a completely different and new person? Reflect about that.
That's not evidence for a soul, but rather you getting hung up on definitions of English words and having a hard time processing one abstract concept but not another. Basically, you're credulous about pretending your soul is in a lion, but incredulous about pretending your body actually being different or somehow changing.

It's basically an argument of incredulity


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Quote:What is your proof we

Quote:
What is your proof we have no soul?

Simple, blow your own head off with a shotgun. Somehow I don't think you'd do that nor would I recomend it.

Now, see if you can spot the pattern.

"Allah gave you a soul"

"Yahweh gave you a soul"

"Vishnu gave you a soul"

What? If it works for you and your pet god claim why wouldn't it work for them?

Here is the reality no believer wants to face. WE are our brains. To be more specific we are our brains in motion. Just like a car cannot speed without an engine. What we call "we" is nothing more than the "speed" of the brain in motion. Once the brain is dead and beyond repair there is no engine for the car to use, no motion, no life.

So please by all means DONT blow your own head off. But the idea of a soul is nothing more than wishful thinking and flat out evolutionary ignorance. Being finite is not frightening to me and I do not need to concoct or believe in anything superstitious by any label to understand the reality of nature.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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GodsUseForAMosquito
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Damasius wrote:Its a fact

Damasius wrote:

Its a fact that humans are spiritual beings, from our earliest origins we have always had belief in the spiritual, in souls, in spirits, in higher power, atheist are broken humans. They are missing a fundamental part of their nature. It has nothing to do with terminology, look around you: beliefs, faith, with cultural differences yes but spirituality nontheless. You atheists are bereft of spiritual nature, you have commited spiritual suicide. The fall is present for all humans, rather that rise back up you have made the physical world your only reality  and you will perish with it, no different that stones and dust.

 

 

I stopped reading further when I got here. I may read more later.

 

Here's the rub of why your position is invalid. You say "from our earliest origins we have always had belief in the spiritual" yet you also concede we evolved from a small rat-like creature. So do dogs, cats, gorillas, elephants etc etc.  have a sense of the spiritual? They are other branches from this early mammal.. how do certain random mutations leading to different species sometimes lead to being spiritual, but mostly not? Maybe you think spirituality is genetic? (some may conclude a belief in spirituality is genetic, but not the spirit itself.)

Perhaps you are talking about early humans as the 'earliest origins' rather than the mammal (then why bring this rat up at all?) But what about our common ancestor with chimps... were they spiritual? Then why aren't chimps? If you believe in evolution by natural selection, why don't ALL animals have spirituality? 

It's more logical to consider that at some point in our evolutionary history it was beneficial to believe in higher powers, which helped us survive, and this became something prevalent in our species - an extra rather than the norm. Atheists don't have need of this 'extra' any more. it's obsolete. 

Using evolution and religion in union to make a point is bound to fail because of this, or points based on similar lines.