why i believe

JesusLovesYou
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why i believe

From the very first week of existance God established MARRIAGE.  He made Adam, and saw he was helpless, so from Adam God created Eve.  Not as his servant, but as his partner-in-crime, his helper, his confidant.  Im sure most of you are atheists partly because some "power-hungry" men in the past oppressed women in the name of the Lord.....BUT they Bible has nothing of the sort.....

 

Anyway, God created marriage between a MAN and a WOMAN as a direct example of Christ's relationship to the church.  The church is the bride of Christ.  The church is not a building....the bible definition of church is the body of believers.  The Bible says that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the Church and gave Himself for it.

The wife in Song of Solomon 5:16 says "my beloved and my friend".  Biblical marriage is not only a man and woman co-existing together, but its FRIENDSHIP.  IMHO the straw that breaks the camel's back leading to divorce is LACK of FRIENDSHIP in marriages. 

If a man saw his wife as his BEST friend he would not covet other women, he would not sit on his "two-pack" with a tv remote or PS3 controller in his hand.  He would be SERVING her.  lack of SERVING is another thing that destroys marriages.  Secular Society (and infortunately some "pious" religious societies) are SELFISH rather than SELFLESS.  People do what they want, when they want, how they want, because THEY want...."Forget my husband or wife, THEY don't understand MY desires"

This is the problem with athiests.  "I don't have to be open and honest with my spouse"= I don't REALLY trust this person with my life.

"I can window shop, as long as I don't buy"=Majority of the time ends up in adultry

Why is divorce so devastating? Why is one or bother parties completely destroyed emotionally in a non-marital sexual relationship?  The act of intercourse physically, emotionally, and spiritually bonds 2 individuals on such an intense level, that the Bible simply describes it as 2 become 1. THIS is why intercourse is reserved for marriage, because of that bond.  Actually under the law of Moses if you slept with someone out of wedlock, you just married them. 

 

Why do I believe this is all tried and true?  My wife and I went through things only God could have gotten us through.  I was not honest, and held things from my past from her out of fear.....things that she found out on her own, by accident.  She left for 5 days, we barely talked.  She would not accept apology, she doubted in my faith, she doubted my past was past.  Intense anger was present in our home for a good month.  We slept separately for that time.  What did we do?  we DID NOT divorce.  We both know God never intended divorce.  We prayed to the Lord for eachother every night, but mainly for the Lord to work in us individually, and worked on our personal relationships with Him.  We sought out BIBLICAL counseling.  What did the counseler do?  Well he started in Genesis 2, and from there we walked through scripture on guidance to what we must do.  I learned that secrets destroy, lies destroy, deceit destroys.  My wife learned that by kicking me out of the room she was punishing me by using the marriage bed as her personal space.  After a month we came together again, and she was able to forgive me.  We are now in a couple's small group learning more about Biblical marriage than we ever knew. 

During that time did part of me want to fear that we would never come out on the other side?  YES did she? YES  But with prayer, searching the scripture, working on our personal relationships with the Lord, and Biblical support from those around us we found the light at the end of the tunnel and our marriage now is better than it ever was.

 

Nobody but God could have brought us through.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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Damasius wrote:Its the

Damasius wrote:

Its the volume of these kind of claims being made thats an indication.

No, that doesn't indicate that the claim is true. You know that.

 

Look, there are many non-supernatural reasons why a person might make a supernatural claim. So why not go through all of those first before we dive into endless imagination ? 

 

Seriously, why not ? 


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Damasius wrote:JesusLovesYou

Damasius wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

None of you have any concept of Manifest Presence, or IOW GLORY.  When you experience the GLORY of God, things happen.  You need to have a Lee Stroebel experience (athiest journalist that became a Christian, who preaches at Willow Creek, who's pastor is good friends with James MacDonald, my pastor).  You say God had no part.  How can you? Do you have the inside scoop in my life? Are there security cameras in my house that I do not know about?

We have experienced GLORY in our lives.  If my wife wasn't faithful to the Lord she would have been out the door never to return, but she sought out the Lord, as did I.  Constantly in prayer, constantly in the Word.  You should check out Mark Driscoll's REAL MARRIAGE.  There is heavy insight into true biblical marriage in there. 

 

In light of the above no one can argue against this man's experience. As he said you are not in his head , you cannot experience and see what he experienced. However the sheer volume of spiritual experiences happening everyday, in all cultures and at all epochs should be telling you something. Saul himself after experiencing God became a christian.

Yes, the ultimate "security camera" watches you fuck your wife without your permission. Unless you want to claim god is not all seeing. And as Hitchens put it "put an entertainment center in the middle of a sewage system".

And what "true bilblical" marrage are we talking about? Are we talking about the 10 commandments where women are not to be coveted like oxen? Yea, tell your wife she is on par with oxen while god watches you fuck her.

Here is the bottom line. Someone sold you superstitious bullshit. Marriage is not a necessity for life or evolution to occur. It is nothing more than an ancient barter system long before your superstition was invented where girls and women were traded to bind two families together for gain of combined resources. The fact that Christianity was doing what the jews and every other polythiesitc culture did does not make girls property, which they ALL DID at that time.

Couples in the west do not need to get married. In fact far too many people get into relationships without knowing a fucking thing about conflict resolution, home economics and are not even emotionally suited to even raise a kid. Why? Because idiots like you sell the institution as a cure all over some stupid vacuuous word like "Glory"

No one should stop anyone from getting married, but it is far too fucking easy to get into one and far to many people do it because of some stupid hormones and childish emotions and pathetic utopias.

If someone stays single and does not contribute to unwanted kids that is a far better world than your stupid superstition that marriage should be law.

FUCK YOU. I am single and I think it is STUPID just to be in a relationship because some other idealistic santa worshiper thinks it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am glad I don't have kids and It would have been toruture to my x to expect her to stay in an unsustanable realtionship because of stupid utopias that ,morons like you sell.

DO your own thing but do not speak for me or pretend that what works for you we all have to submit to.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Damasius
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Anonymouse wrote:Damasius

Anonymouse wrote:

Damasius wrote:

Its the volume of these kind of claims being made thats an indication.

No, that doesn't indicate that the claim is true. You know that.

 

Look, there are many non-supernatural reasons why a person might make a supernatural claim. So why no go through all of those first before we dive into endless imagination ? 

 

Seriously, why not ? 

 

Let me start with this first, off course it gives an indication about the truth tof the claim, it becomes an empiric fatc., that we ass human beings experience the supernatural. Of course some people might lie for one reason or another, but that dosent deter from the majority of people who have genuine spiritual experience, I had such an experience. And I know inside myself that this experience was true, so as do countless others.


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How does this bitter little

''Yes, the ultimate "security camera" watches you fuck '' ( snip)

 

 

How does this bitter little rant answer any of what I said??


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JesusLovesYou wrote:None of

JesusLovesYou wrote:

None of you have any concept of Manifest Presence, or IOW GLORY.  When you experience the GLORY of God, things happen.  You need to have a Lee Stroebel experience (athiest journalist that became a Christian, who preaches at Willow Creek, who's pastor is good friends with James MacDonald, my pastor).  You say God had no part.  How can you? Do you have the inside scoop in my life? Are there security cameras in my house that I do not know about?

We have experienced GLORY in our lives.  If my wife wasn't faithful to the Lord she would have been out the door never to return, but she sought out the Lord, as did I.  Constantly in prayer, constantly in the Word.  You should check out Mark Driscoll's REAL MARRIAGE.  There is heavy insight into true biblical marriage in there. 

I can't have a Lee Strobel experience. I'm not a fake atheist. I call him a "fake atheist" because for all this experience he allegedly had, Strobel knows nothing about atheism.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:I can't have

jcgadfly wrote:

I can't have a Lee Strobel experience. I'm not a fake atheist. I call him a "fake atheist" because for all this experience he allegedly had, Strobel knows nothing about atheism.

 

You just asserted something that you are trying to fight against.  "Strobel knows nothing about atheism."  So atheism is linear? its a straight, narrow path? Your claim is atheism is "unbelief".  Since when does unbelief have standards? Since when does one have to disbelieve a certain way? I know plenty of atheists, my sister included, and they are no where near the kind of person that all of you portray.  In that statement you, probably without even realized it, made a religion out of your "so-called" disbelief. 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested.

   Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested.

 

Holding_On_To_His_Holiness wrote:
Its basic courtesy to answer the OP first. Im not so much interested in the debate that took part afterwards, I comment on the SUBSTANCE of the thread.

  Answer :: Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested. It's always good to know people can assert whatever the hell. It comforts me at night.  Intensifier is the insult I should have said for the brush off (which I in no way take personally). Good to know people can string any old series of quotes or passages together. Lurkers picking up on that yet ?!? 

 

 

 To:: I apologize JesusLovesYou  I was under the mistaken impression you werent going to be back for a long time, I may have been influenced by the hijacking of the OP's Thread in this. Sorry about that, K?  I did mean what I said that I do hope Emily is well.

 

 

 


JesusLovesYou
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danatemporary wrote:  

danatemporary wrote:

   Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested.

 

Holding_On_To_His_Holiness wrote:
Its basic courtesy to answer the OP first. Im not so much interested in the debate that took part afterwards, I comment on the SUBSTANCE of the thread.

  Answer :: Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested. It's always good to know people can assert whatever the hell. It comforts me at night.  Intensifier is the insult I should have said for the brush off (which I in no way take personally). Good to know people can string any old series of quotes or passages together. Lurkers picking up on that yet ?!? 

 

 

 To:: I apologize JesusLovesYou  I was under the mistaken impression you werent going to be back for a long time, I may have been influenced by the hijacking of the OP's Thread in this. Sorry about that, K?  I did mean what I said that I do hope Emily is well.

 

 

 

 

what are you?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Damasius
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danatemporary wrote:  

 

   Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested.

 

Holding_On_To_His_Holiness wrote:
Its basic courtesy to answer the OP first. Im not so much interested in the debate that took part afterwards, I comment on the SUBSTANCE of the thread.

  Answer :: Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested. It's always good to know people can assert whatever the hell. It comforts me at night.  Intensifier is the insult I should have said for the brush off (which I in no way take personally). Good to know people can string any old series of quotes or passages together. Lurkers picking up on that yet ?!? 

 

 

 To:: I apologize JesusLovesYou  I was under the mistaken impression you werent going to be back for a long time, I may have been influenced by the hijacking of the OP's Thread in this. Sorry about that, K?  I did mean what I said that I do hope Emily is well.

 

''Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested''  I am not at all disinterested, however I am growing tired of the bitter little rants I see posted as a response to the serious topic from jesuslovesyou.

 

'' It's always good to know people can assert whatever the hell.'' 

????????

 

 ''It comforts me at night''

 

????????????????? 

 

 

''Intensifier is the insult I should have said for the brush off (which I in no way take personally). ''

Are you ok?

 

 ''Good to know people can string any old series of quotes or passages together. Lurkers picking up on that yet ?!? ''

 

What in heaven's name are you jabbering about?


JesusLovesYou
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Damasius wrote:    Yes,

Damasius wrote:

 

   Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested.

 

Holding_On_To_His_Holiness wrote:
Its basic courtesy to answer the OP first. Im not so much interested in the debate that took part afterwards, I comment on the SUBSTANCE of the thread.

  Answer :: Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested. It's always good to know people can assert whatever the hell. It comforts me at night.  Intensifier is the insult I should have said for the brush off (which I in no way take personally). Good to know people can string any old series of quotes or passages together. Lurkers picking up on that yet ?!? 

 

 

 To:: I apologize JesusLovesYou  I was under the mistaken impression you werent going to be back for a long time, I may have been influenced by the hijacking of the OP's Thread in this. Sorry about that, K?  I did mean what I said that I do hope Emily is well.

 

''Yes, It is terribly courtesy to be disinterested''  I am not at all disinterested, however I am growing tired of the bitter little rants I see posted as a response to the serious topic from jesuslovesyou.

 

'' It's always good to know people can assert whatever the hell.'' 

????????

 

 ''It comforts me at night''

 

????????????????? 

 

 

''Intensifier is the insult I should have said for the brush off (which I in no way take personally). ''

Are you ok?

 

 ''Good to know people can string any old series of quotes or passages together. Lurkers picking up on that yet ?!? ''

 

What in heaven's name are you jabbering about?

damasius, you will come to learn that danatemp does jabber nonsensibly on a tangent quite a bit.  i have yet to make sense of her posts

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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I bet she must think her

I bet she must think her posts hold some sort of high hidden meaning that only her and the ''enlighten ones'' can understand Eye-wink


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re:: My God You cant keep a whole thread in your head ?

 If you people cant tell where this is coming from that is fine. It was originally about a reference in Lev. but I do not feel I need to explain where it was because seven people on page two seemed to be discussing it. The Whole misbegotten ways of our Troll to be Ms Twd39. I would quote more but I think it be best you be left guessing . 

                


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danatemporary wrote: If you

danatemporary wrote:

 If you people cant tell where this is coming from that is fine. It was originally about a reference in Lev. but I do not feel I need to explain where it was because seven people on page two seemed to be discussing it. The Whole misbegotten ways of our Troll to by Ms Twd39.

                

 

 

So you wont explain your nonsensical babble? And you think this is courtesy??

 

 

 ''I would quote more but I think it be best you be left guessing . ''

 

As I said.


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JesusLovesYou wrote:jcgadfly

JesusLovesYou wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

I can't have a Lee Strobel experience. I'm not a fake atheist. I call him a "fake atheist" because for all this experience he allegedly had, Strobel knows nothing about atheism.

 

You just asserted something that you are trying to fight against.  "Strobel knows nothing about atheism."  So atheism is linear? its a straight, narrow path? Your claim is atheism is "unbelief".  Since when does unbelief have standards? Since when does one have to disbelieve a certain way? I know plenty of atheists, my sister included, and they are no where near the kind of person that all of you portray.  In that statement you, probably without even realized it, made a religion out of your "so-called" disbelief. 

Strobel doesn't consider atheism "unbelief" - I'd have less of a problem if he did. He considers it (as you do) as a "denial of God". I don't deny that there might possibly be a god. I don't see how that god could be the one of the Bible.

I've read his books and the Bible to make that call - how about you?

When you attack a position that your opponent doesn't hold that's called attacking a straw man and it's a logical fallacy.

Oh, and what kind of a person do I portray? Someone who doesn't bow before you when you come with what you think is divine imprimatur? Someone who dares to ask you to provide evidence for your position?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote:JesusLovesYou

jcgadfly wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

I can't have a Lee Strobel experience. I'm not a fake atheist. I call him a "fake atheist" because for all this experience he allegedly had, Strobel knows nothing about atheism.

 

You just asserted something that you are trying to fight against.  "Strobel knows nothing about atheism."  So atheism is linear? its a straight, narrow path? Your claim is atheism is "unbelief".  Since when does unbelief have standards? Since when does one have to disbelieve a certain way? I know plenty of atheists, my sister included, and they are no where near the kind of person that all of you portray.  In that statement you, probably without even realized it, made a religion out of your "so-called" disbelief. 

Strobel doesn't consider atheism "unbelief" - I'd have less of a problem if he did. He considers it (as you do) as a "denial of God". I don't deny that there might possibly be a god. I don't see how that god could be the one of the Bible.

I've read his books and the Bible to make that call - how about you?

When you attack a position that your opponent doesn't hold that's called attacking a straw man and it's a logical fallacy.

Oh, and what kind of a person do I portray? Someone who doesn't bow before you when you come with what you think is divine imprimatur? Someone who dares to ask you to provide evidence for your position?

Sometimes, JCGADFLY, apparent evidence is not what YOU define as evidence.  "FAITH is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen".  You atheists confine yourselves to a pre-defined box.  I'm not denying that some religous people put themselves in a box too.  I was one of those.  I was trapped in the snare of the United Pentecostal Church.  A church of "extra rules" just as the Pharisees were.  Faith goes a LONG way.  Faith is what is keeping the little girl in haiti that we are supporting through food for the hungry from giving up.  Faith is what gave my pastor re-assurance when his wife fell off an ATV and it almost rolled on her.  Look outside of your pre-conceived box and realize that the evidence that YOU define is not always needed to know and understand what is there.

 

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


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TWD39 wrote:Really every bit

TWD39 wrote:
Really every bit of science disproves the Bible?

That's not quite what I said, but we'll go with it for now.

TWD39 wrote:
Genesis 1 tells me that man was the last animal created.

And yet new species have continued to evolve since we've been around. -1pt for the bible.

TWD39 wrote:
Can you find another animal species as developed as humans?

This is quite subjective. Just because we've learned to mimic practically every species we've come across doesn't make us special. In fact, we've been in the position of being the only known species which has had the capacity to destroy itself, either through direct action OR direct inaction, and nearly everything else with it. That makes us the most dangerous species in history. So what if we've developed technology before anything else did?
Which brings up an interesting concept you've probably never thought of: What if we weren't the first? There's about a 300 million year window for any number of species to develop a language.

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There could have been dozens

There could have been dozens of species that developed language to the extent we have, before being wiped out by any number of possible circumstances.
All we KNOW is that we're the first species to develop and utilise nuclear technology, and enter space voluntarily, on Earth (ask me how if you're interested).
And since it took us more than 100,000 years to do those, there's another huge window for a few species to develop language, music, art, and technology before being wiped out.

As for the OP, there was no response to my rebuttal of his claims, and therefore no reason to bother with his posts further.

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Vastet wrote:TWD39 wrote:Can

Vastet wrote:

TWD39 wrote:
Can you find another animal species as developed as humans?

This is quite subjective. Just because we've learned to mimic practically every species we've come across doesn't make us special. In fact, we've been in the position of being the only known species which has had the capacity to destroy itself, either through direct action OR direct inaction, and nearly everything else with it. That makes us the most dangerous species in history. So what if we've developed technology before anything else did? Which brings up an interesting concept you've probably never thought of: What if we weren't the first? There's about a 300 million year window for any number of species to develop a language.

Awesome reply

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Good post

 Good post Smiling


Vastet
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I try.

I try. blushing

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JesusLovesYou wrote:Faith is

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Faith is what is keeping the little girl in haiti that we are supporting through food for the hungry from giving up.

Um, are you sure it's not the food? Or the fact she knows people care about her?

Regardless, you and your wife are doing a wonderful thing, and hearing about it makes me glad. 

 


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Damasius wrote:Let me start

Damasius wrote:

Let me start with this first, off course it gives an indication about the truth tof the claim, it becomes an empiric fatc., that we ass human beings experience the supernatural. Of course some people might lie for one reason or another, but that dosent deter from the majority of people who have genuine spiritual experience, I had such an experience. And I know inside myself that this experience was true, so as do countless others.


 

No. A supernatural claim repeated a million times doesn't get any closer to becoming an empirical fact. If it did, we'd be up to our necks in supernatural creatures and phenomena, and as many radically different gods as there are believers.

 

And could you please answer my question ? I'm sorry if it seemed rhetorical, but it wasn't.

 

Here it is again : There are many non-supernatural reasons why a person might make a supernatural claim. So why no go through all of those first before we dive into endless imagination ? Seriously, why not ?


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JesusLovesYou wrote:what are

JesusLovesYou wrote:

what are you?

I'm guessing she's a college-age woman named Dana, though I could be wrong.

 


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Damasius wrote:What in

Damasius wrote:
What in heaven's name are you jabbering about?

JesusLovesYou wrote:
damasius, you will come to learn that danatemp does jabber nonsensibly on a tangent quite a bit.  i have yet to make sense of her posts

 

Glad you two found something to bond over, but people in glass houses really shouldn't be throwing stones, k ? Okay then.


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blacklight915

blacklight915 wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

Faith is what is keeping the little girl in haiti that we are supporting through food for the hungry from giving up.

Um, are you sure it's not the food? Or the fact she knows people care about her?

Regardless, you and your wife are doing a wonderful thing, and hearing about it makes me glad. 

 

 

Exactly.

People without faith in the supernatural are quite capable of supporting people in need.

(Me and my boyfriend, for instance, have spent our last two summer vacations in Northern Uganda, helping out with construction in various relief projects.)


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Damasius wrote:''Yes, the

Damasius wrote:

''Yes, the ultimate "security camera" watches you fuck '' ( snip)

 

 

How does this bitter little rant answer any of what I said??

Your childish projectionism doesn't wash here. I cannot be bitter about your god claim anymore than you can be bitter about Vishnu or Thor.

 

My "rant" is about your stupid use of logic, not your right to make bullshit claims about fictional beings that dont exist.

My objections have everything to do with your god claim. You just don't like me cutting to the chase.

If you don't mind your privacy invaded, you could live in a prison or live in North Korea. YOU seem to ignore that the fictional super hero you claim is real has according to you, the ability to see all all the time. That should scare the shit out of anyone who values western society and rights to privacy.

STRICTLY as a claim, like reviewing a character in a story.

Your fictional super hero reads like a dictator because a dictator can invade your privacy without your permission or concent How does it feel to worship a dictator?

Either your god claim makes the character all powerful or it doesn't. If your god cannot invade your privacy, then it is not all poweful and no reason to call it a god. If it can invade your privacy then you are nothing more than property, a toy, a pawn, a lab rat.

I don't know about you, but I like my privacy and the thought of someone watching me whenever they want is Orwellian and smacks of Big Brother. Don't ask me to buy into such a horrible concept of fiction.

And don't confuse anger at an absurd claim with bitterness. I'd be just as pissed if you claimed the moon was made of cheese and truely wanted to peddle such an absurdity.

 

So again if god is all seeing as according to most believers, that means he can whenever he wants, according to you, watch you fuck and pee and shit, WITHOUT your permission. To ask me to be kind to such a horrible thought as strictly a claim, is absurd and vile. You might as well be trying to sell me an apartment in North Korea.

If you want to subject your self to the delusion that you need to be under the thumb of a dictator in the sky, I cant stop you. But merely pointing out the absurdity and sick Idea of a Superman with x ray vision who can peek at your undies whenever he feels like it. You expect me to not say shit about such a sick and intrusive concept?

 

 

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Anonymouse wrote:Damasius

Anonymouse wrote:

Damasius wrote:

Let me start with this first, off course it gives an indication about the truth tof the claim, it becomes an empiric fatc., that we ass human beings experience the supernatural. Of course some people might lie for one reason or another, but that dosent deter from the majority of people who have genuine spiritual experience, I had such an experience. And I know inside myself that this experience was true, so as do countless others.


 

No. A supernatural claim repeated a million times doesn't get any closer to becoming an empirical fact. If it did, we'd be up to our necks in supernatural creatures and phenomena, and as many radically different gods as there are believers.

 

And could you please answer my question ? I'm sorry if it seemed rhetorical, but it wasn't.

 

Here it is again : There are many non-supernatural reasons why a person might make a supernatural claim. So why no go through all of those first before we dive into endless imagination ? Seriously, why not ?

 

There are hundreds of people out there who have supernatural encounters, myself included.   It's kinda arrogant to assume we are all liars or delusional.  I don't know what you really expect.  A supernatural encounter that you can reproduce at will in a science lab?  Not going to happen.


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TWD39 wrote:There are

TWD39 wrote:

There are hundreds of people out there who have supernatural encounters, myself included.   It's kinda arrogant to assume we are all liars or delusional.  I don't know what you really expect.  A supernatural encounter that you can reproduce at will in a science lab?  Not going to happen.

Once again, many people repeating the same supernatural claim doesn't make it true.
 

What I expect is an answer to my question. 

Also not going to happen ? 


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JesusLovesYou wrote:jcgadfly

JesusLovesYou wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

JesusLovesYou wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

I can't have a Lee Strobel experience. I'm not a fake atheist. I call him a "fake atheist" because for all this experience he allegedly had, Strobel knows nothing about atheism.

 

You just asserted something that you are trying to fight against.  "Strobel knows nothing about atheism."  So atheism is linear? its a straight, narrow path? Your claim is atheism is "unbelief".  Since when does unbelief have standards? Since when does one have to disbelieve a certain way? I know plenty of atheists, my sister included, and they are no where near the kind of person that all of you portray.  In that statement you, probably without even realized it, made a religion out of your "so-called" disbelief. 

Strobel doesn't consider atheism "unbelief" - I'd have less of a problem if he did. He considers it (as you do) as a "denial of God". I don't deny that there might possibly be a god. I don't see how that god could be the one of the Bible.

I've read his books and the Bible to make that call - how about you?

When you attack a position that your opponent doesn't hold that's called attacking a straw man and it's a logical fallacy.

Oh, and what kind of a person do I portray? Someone who doesn't bow before you when you come with what you think is divine imprimatur? Someone who dares to ask you to provide evidence for your position?

Sometimes, JCGADFLY, apparent evidence is not what YOU define as evidence.  "FAITH is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen".  You atheists confine yourselves to a pre-defined box.  I'm not denying that some religous people put themselves in a box too.  I was one of those.  I was trapped in the snare of the United Pentecostal Church.  A church of "extra rules" just as the Pharisees were.  Faith goes a LONG way.  Faith is what is keeping the little girl in haiti that we are supporting through food for the hungry from giving up.  Faith is what gave my pastor re-assurance when his wife fell off an ATV and it almost rolled on her.  Look outside of your pre-conceived box and realize that the evidence that YOU define is not always needed to know and understand what is there.

 

My "pre-conceived bias" is called reality. what's yours? Or are you going to tell me you don't have one?

As for the Hebrews 11:1  definition of faith it can also be written as "Faith is a belief that is held without reason and defended against all reason" (Thanks AronRa).

Faith is all that is helping that little girl? She's not really benefiting from the food, clothing, shelter and education that the agency you help support is giving her? Faith alone helped that pastor's wife keep from being hurt under an ATV? Her reflexes had nothing to do with it? If she did get an injury, I guess that medical science that helped her get patched up at home or in the hospital was no help at all, huh?

Why do you guys sell yourselves so short? Why do you look past reality instead of appreciating what you do in reality?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Quote:It's kinda arrogant to

Quote:
It's kinda arrogant to assume we are all liars or delusional.

No, it's logical. We know people can be delusional and/or lie. It's a proven fact that even you can't disagree with.
So we're left between a bunch of people who claim things that have never been proven and reality. Maybe you're right, but until your god sees fit to give me a 'supernatural' (whatever that means) experience or allow me to witness such an experience you'll forgive me for assuming the logical alternative to magic.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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TWD39 wrote:Anonymouse

TWD39 wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Damasius wrote:

Let me start with this first, off course it gives an indication about the truth tof the claim, it becomes an empiric fatc., that we ass human beings experience the supernatural. Of course some people might lie for one reason or another, but that dosent deter from the majority of people who have genuine spiritual experience, I had such an experience. And I know inside myself that this experience was true, so as do countless others.

 


 

No. A supernatural claim repeated a million times doesn't get any closer to becoming an empirical fact. If it did, we'd be up to our necks in supernatural creatures and phenomena, and as many radically different gods as there are believers.

 

And could you please answer my question ? I'm sorry if it seemed rhetorical, but it wasn't.

 

Here it is again : There are many non-supernatural reasons why a person might make a supernatural claim. So why no go through all of those first before we dive into endless imagination ? Seriously, why not ?

 

There are hundreds of people out there who have supernatural encounters, myself included.   It's kinda arrogant to assume we are all liars or delusional.  I don't know what you really expect.  A supernatural encounter that you can reproduce at will in a science lab?  Not going to happen.

You are lying to yourself, some people go further and lie to others selling bullshit. There is no bigfoot and I can remember them selling that bullshit when I was a kid.

The vast majority of humans have some sort of sugar pill superstition. In China they eat all sorts of wierd incects or shark fin or some stupid crap they claim will cure their ills.

The ancient Egypitans falsely for 3,000 years believed ;that the sun was a thinking being.

I agree that most people are superstitious. But that merely means they have no understanding of why that gap filling is what they falsely have for far too long defaulted to.

You had an "experiance". I am sure you did and I am sure it was intense. But it was not the product of ghosts or magic or invisible sky daddies by any name anymore than the LOC Ness monster is real.

It mearly means you simply lack the understanding of why human perceptions can be notoriously flawed.

But there has never been EVER in human history a brain existing without a material structure. So the only natural explination for your "experiance" it that it scared the crap out of you and you filled in to that gap a superstition.

AND FYI just to let you know, I have had "experiances". I once "floated" over my own body. I once saw my dead grandmother at the foot of my bed. I once saw my dead father at the foot of my bed. I once saw my LIVE mother at the foot of my bed.

 

AND IT WAS NOTHING MORE THAN MY STRESS LEVEL AND BRAIN FART OF MY DREAMS MIXING WITH MY CONCIOUS. People can have these delusions even while awake.

The statement that "most people" doesn't mean shit. Most people believe shit you don't believe. Most people once believed the earth to be flat.

You are lying to yourself even if you think you are not deliberately lying to others. Thing as ghosts or vampires or sucubi, or gargoils or mummies. All having an "intense" "experiance" means is that you went through something that was intense. But it was still a missenterpretation of your own brain's reactiion and your own lack of understanding as to why superstition has always existed in human history.

 

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TWD39 wrote:A supernatural

TWD39 wrote:

A supernatural encounter that you can reproduce at will in a science lab?

That is exactly what I expect. I also expect you to stop ignoring my posts. Perhaps I expect too much?

 

TWD39 wrote:

There are hundreds of people out there who have supernatural encounters, myself included.

What is the supernatural like?

 


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blacklight915 wrote:What is

blacklight915 wrote:
What is the supernatural like?
 

I'm starting to suspect it makes people very cranky. 


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Brian37 wrote:TWD39

Brian37 wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

Damasius wrote:

Let me start with this first, off course it gives an indication about the truth tof the claim, it becomes an empiric fatc., that we ass human beings experience the supernatural. Of course some people might lie for one reason or another, but that dosent deter from the majority of people who have genuine spiritual experience, I had such an experience. And I know inside myself that this experience was true, so as do countless others.

 


 

No. A supernatural claim repeated a million times doesn't get any closer to becoming an empirical fact. If it did, we'd be up to our necks in supernatural creatures and phenomena, and as many radically different gods as there are believers.

 

And could you please answer my question ? I'm sorry if it seemed rhetorical, but it wasn't.

 

Here it is again : There are many non-supernatural reasons why a person might make a supernatural claim. So why no go through all of those first before we dive into endless imagination ? Seriously, why not ?

 

There are hundreds of people out there who have supernatural encounters, myself included.   It's kinda arrogant to assume we are all liars or delusional.  I don't know what you really expect.  A supernatural encounter that you can reproduce at will in a science lab?  Not going to happen.

You are lying to yourself, some people go further and lie to others selling bullshit. There is no bigfoot and I can remember them selling that bullshit when I was a kid.

The vast majority of humans have some sort of sugar pill superstition. In China they eat all sorts of wierd incects or shark fin or some stupid crap they claim will cure their ills.

The ancient Egypitans falsely for 3,000 years believed ;that the sun was a thinking being.

I agree that most people are superstitious. But that merely means they have no understanding of why that gap filling is what they falsely have for far too long defaulted to.

You had an "experiance". I am sure you did and I am sure it was intense. But it was not the product of ghosts or magic or invisible sky daddies by any name anymore than the LOC Ness monster is real.

It mearly means you simply lack the understanding of why human perceptions can be notoriously flawed.

But there has never been EVER in human history a brain existing without a material structure. So the only natural explination for your "experiance" it that it scared the crap out of you and you filled in to that gap a superstition.

AND FYI just to let you know, I have had "experiances". I once "floated" over my own body. I once saw my dead grandmother at the foot of my bed. I once saw my dead father at the foot of my bed. I once saw my LIVE mother at the foot of my bed.

 

AND IT WAS NOTHING MORE THAN MY STRESS LEVEL AND BRAIN FART OF MY DREAMS MIXING WITH MY CONCIOUS. People can have these delusions even while awake.

The statement that "most people" doesn't mean shit. Most people believe shit you don't believe. Most people once believed the earth to be flat.

You are lying to yourself even if you think you are not deliberately lying to others. Thing as ghosts or vampires or sucubi, or gargoils or mummies. All having an "intense" "experiance" means is that you went through something that was intense. But it was still a missenterpretation of your own brain's reactiion and your own lack of understanding as to why superstition has always existed in human history.

 

 

 

That is a narrow minded way of thinking especially since you haven't examined each case.  How do you explain something like objects flying across the room, radios turning on by itself?  People having demonic encounters with ouiji boards?   I don't think that experience is an altered state of consciousness.  I've had demonic encounters myself.  Scary stuff.  I've had complete strangers pray for me and speak out a specific problem that I was struggling with with no foreknowledge. 

 I had a pastor that saw an angel lift a fallen tractor off his leg.  I've had friends that had encounters with their guardian angels.  My friend who saw his thyroid cancer disappear completely after much prayer.  My mom as a child saw her father turning blue and dying from a heart attack right in front of her.  She started praying and God healed him immediately.  He started laughing with joy, and was fine for many years after that.  How do you explain that as a delusion?  

Here's another one for ya.  A friend of mine, Doyle Dykes (who happens to be one of the greatest guitarists in the world) shares this small testimony and minor miracle.  Here you have a complete stranger obeying the voice of God and answering the prayer of Doyle's daughter.  If God is not real, how did her delusion know exactly what to bring to the concert?

http://cfhusband.blogspot.com/2008/06/story-behind-white-rose-guitar.html

 


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Well, Pais-Pais/TWD, some of

Well, Pais-Pais/TWD, some of those things you listed do have natural explanations.  You'll likely ignore and reject them automatically. That cognitive dissonance hurts pretty bad sometimes.

Objects flying around the room? someone in another room throwing them in. Objects having fishing line tied to them and controlled via pulleys?

Radios turning on by themselves? did you know that they make clock radios that will do that at a certain time when you set the alarm?

Demonic experiences with Ouiji boards? Combination of wishful thinking and something going bump in the night.

Pastor's angel? Backlit man making it look like he has a glow around him.

Man seeing his thyroid cancer disappear? Self diagnosed a problem and self diagnosed a cure.

Not saying that there couldn't be divine involvement. Simply that natural explanations do exist for some of the things you describe.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Exactly. Why take the

Exactly. Why take the supernatural road when there are still so many non-supernatural explanations ? 

 

I tire of asking this question, so I'll try to answer it myself :  

I recently watched a BBC 3 documentary series where people holding certain supernatural beliefs are respectfully confronted with scientists and facts that blow their theories out of the water.

Something rather touching happened at the end of this particular episode.

A woman, unhappy and shaken by having her beliefs challenged by reality, decided to prove her supernatural claim by having a lie detector test (yes, I know they're not 100% scientific). Only the presenter of the program, worried that she would be humiliated by the results, kindly offered her a face-saving way out.

"You don't have to do this. I like you anwyay"

The show ended with her happily spinning one of her yarns, and the presenter simply listening to her, no longer bothering to point out the holes in her story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7ByWCFX4ZQs

(sorry, don't know how to post vids)

 

So why did she stick to her story, when she didn't have a leg to stand on ? Because it had become such an integral part of her personality, and the way she related to other people, that it was simply too hard to give up. 

She enjoyed telling these stories. Maybe it even made her feel empowered in some way. 

In any case, nothing supernatural there. It's all so very human.

 

 

 


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TWD39 wrote:Here's another

TWD39 wrote:
Here's another one for ya.  A friend of mine, Doyle Dykes (who happens to be one of the greatest guitarists in the world) shares this small testimony and minor miracle.  Here you have a complete stranger obeying the voice of God and answering the prayer of Doyle's daughter.  If God is not real, how did her delusion know exactly what to bring to the concert?

http://cfhusband.blogspot.com/2008/06/story-behind-white-rose-guitar.html

 

 

Anyone casting doubt on this story is immediately going to be cast as the bad guy, simply because there are children involved in this. 

Still, is there any reason (if the story wasn't completely fabricated to begin with) that this isn't simply coincidence embellished to the point of the supernatural ?

 IOW, maybe he did receive a gift after the concert, but maybe it wasn't exactly what his daughter asked for. The rational possibilities are too many to count.

 

So why embellish or fabricate such a story ? Well, if you're part of a community that appreciates stories like that, and you know in advance that they will believe you, and the story will make people in your group feel good about themselves and their beliefs, well, then it starts looking less and less like a lie, and more like a good idea. 


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So You wont .. ?!???

 > So You wont .. ?!???

Damasius wrote:

danatemporary wrote:

 If you people cant tell where this is coming from that is fine. It was originally about a reference in Lev. but I do not feel I need to explain where it was because seven people on page two seemed to be discussing it. The Whole misbegotten ways of our Troll to by Ms Twd39.

                

 

 

So you wont explain your nonsensical babble?

 

  So, You wont either  comment on a passage in the bible; and so you wont read all of page two ?

  You are a very humble person I can tell.  Good thing you happened along then, to put an end to an empasse /impasse we all have been unfortunately suffering from due to a dispute regarding the words contained in the Chapter : 

 

  The image is faint I hope you can make it out, if not, it is  the  Douay-Rheims, of the Seventeenth Chapter: 



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

  SEE: the Image

  I will not be at a terminal so I will PM you and send  electronic mail specifically to you, check for e-mail from this site. I will at least do this before I am forced to Log-off this terminal, K?   Same-old; same-old  Thanx

 

 


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Anonymouse wrote:TWD39

Anonymouse wrote:

TWD39 wrote:
Here's another one for ya.  A friend of mine, Doyle Dykes (who happens to be one of the greatest guitarists in the world) shares this small testimony and minor miracle.  Here you have a complete stranger obeying the voice of God and answering the prayer of Doyle's daughter.  If God is not real, how did her delusion know exactly what to bring to the concert?

http://cfhusband.blogspot.com/2008/06/story-behind-white-rose-guitar.html

 

 

Anyone casting doubt on this story is immediately going to be cast as the bad guy, simply because there are children involved in this. 

Still, is there any reason (if the story wasn't completely fabricated to begin with) that this isn't simply coincidence embellished to the point of the supernatural ?

 IOW, maybe he did receive a gift after the concert, but maybe it wasn't exactly what his daughter asked for. The rational possibilities are too many to count.

 

So why embellish or fabricate such a story ? Well, if you're part of a community that appreciates stories like that, and you know in advance that they will believe you, and the story will make people in your group feel good about themselves and their beliefs, well, then it starts looking less and less like a lie, and more like a good idea. 

 

Considering the countless possibilities of items she could have brought, the odds of it being mere concidence would be astronomical.  Of course, you could simply claim Doyle is a lying sack, but if you knew Doyle, you would find him to be one of the most friendliest down to earth people.  His community is the guitar community, Christian or not.   He could enjoy the same level of success and admiration without embellishing such a story so I have absolutely no reason to believe he is lying.  It must be maddening to live in your world where you approach everything and everyone with complete skepticism.   But I'm sure you don't live your life that way.


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TWD39 wrote:Anonymouse

TWD39 wrote:

Anonymouse wrote:

TWD39 wrote:
Here's another one for ya.  A friend of mine, Doyle Dykes (who happens to be one of the greatest guitarists in the world) shares this small testimony and minor miracle.  Here you have a complete stranger obeying the voice of God and answering the prayer of Doyle's daughter.  If God is not real, how did her delusion know exactly what to bring to the concert?

http://cfhusband.blogspot.com/2008/06/story-behind-white-rose-guitar.html

 

 

Anyone casting doubt on this story is immediately going to be cast as the bad guy, simply because there are children involved in this. 

Still, is there any reason (if the story wasn't completely fabricated to begin with) that this isn't simply coincidence embellished to the point of the supernatural ?

 IOW, maybe he did receive a gift after the concert, but maybe it wasn't exactly what his daughter asked for. The rational possibilities are too many to count.

 

So why embellish or fabricate such a story ? Well, if you're part of a community that appreciates stories like that, and you know in advance that they will believe you, and the story will make people in your group feel good about themselves and their beliefs, well, then it starts looking less and less like a lie, and more like a good idea. 

 

Considering the countless possibilities of items she could have brought, the odds of it being mere concidence would be astronomical.  Of course, you could simply claim Doyle is a lying sack, but if you knew Doyle, you would find him to be one of the most friendliest down to earth people.  His community is the guitar community, Christian or not.   He could enjoy the same level of success and admiration without embellishing such a story so I have absolutely no reason to believe he is lying.  It must be maddening to live in your world where you approach everything and everyone with complete skepticism.   But I'm sure you don't live your life that way.

What does friendliness have to do with wishful thinking? Not going to call him a liar (don't know him).

I think it would be equally maddening to live in your world where you approach everyone and everything with complete alacrity. I'm also sure you don't live your life like that.

You're just a gnostophobe.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Hi Pa, it's pa isnt it after all . . . .

 

Laughtingalltheway wrote:
. . have absolutely no reason to believe he is lying

  Hi again Pa, it's me.  Pa would you like me to contact the moderators again, we have a real case this time ? The Problems with rules is you can remind them to the rule makers. Log-In under your original Log-In User-Count . . Have to sign off now. Enjoy talking to whomever I choice (but I will be fair, for it's only fair). Log-Off and get the old account up and running and we wont be contacting any one of them, K?

 


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danatemporary

danatemporary wrote:

 

Laughtingalltheway wrote:
. . have absolutely no reason to believe he is lying

  Hi again Pa, it's me.  Pa would you like me to contact the moderators again, we have a real case this time ? The Problems with rules is you can remind them to the rule makers. Log-In under your original Log-In User-Count . . Have to sign off now. Enjoy talking to whomever I choice (but I will be fair, for it's only fair). Log-Off and get the old account up and running and we wont be contacting any one of them, K?

 

 

Real case of what?  If you are claiming that I am this Paisley character then you are absolutely wrong, and you have no evidence to prove it.  I only joined this forum a few months ago so I advise you drop it.


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Threats from the gnostophobe

Threats from the gnostophobe Pais=pais. Should I shake now or save it for a bit?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Re :: I remember your PM w/ the stunned connotation :

 RE :: .. I remember your PM with a stunned connotation.

 

  TWD :: You sent a PM to me once saying you never broke any rules with a stunned connotation (obviously that is not true) . If I was mistaken I will gladly drop it and more than humble enough to apologize for the misunderstanding about Pa. Give me a P.O. Box and I will write a formal letter of apology.  To show you there is nothing personal between us. Nothing more than a series of moves to try to get you to behave (5 year old). 5 year old. Mr. Martin Schoyen has had 107 of his personal collection of Egyptian tablets translated confirming both the of two events in the times of Nebuchadnezzer II, you can report to Wikipedia, worth adding to the Biblical archaeology reference (source : Wikipedia). That way you can not only quote from it but be part of the process, anyone does you know. More fair warning; Dont test me. You dont want me to play country lawyer  on your azz from the first thread. You'll earn that Troll-badge all on your own. With your temper ? But I did wrongly assume something and for that I will say I am sorry. That doesnt go for the first thread. 

 

 

 

 

ps  -- Didnt even notice those changes to 'your' thread, huh ? 

 


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Quote:That is a narrow

Quote:
That is a narrow minded way of thinking especially since you haven't examined each case

 

If one person comes up to you and claims that their is a multiple armed elephant god who you can pray to, are you being closed minded by rejecting it?

If another person comes up to you and claims that ouija boards work, are you being closed minded by rejecting that cliam?

 

If another person claims that slamming planes into buildings will get you a cosmic harem in an afterlife, will that make you closed minded if you reject such a claim?

Close  minded is refusing to look for a natural expination. Close minded is hitting a gap and incerting bullshit into it because you are too lazy to do any testing.

 

The ammount of people making an absurd claim does not make that absurd claim true otherwise the earth would be flat and the sun would rotate arround the earth because CLOSED MINDED ASSHOLES did not care to investigate becuase they thought they had the answer.

 

If popularity of making ANY claim were true, then because 4 billion people claim Allah to be the one true god, then by proxy of your stupid childish condecending logic you are being close minded because you are not examining each of those muslims claims case by case.

Close minded is hitting a gap and filling it with bullshit.

It is not close minded to say that the brain is physical. WE CAN FUCKING PROVE THAT. Go to any morgue and you can split a human skull and see the brain. We also know that humans can and often mistake what they see or feel as something else. Ever stick your hand in a covered bowl of olives in a dark room as a kid during Holloween AFTER someone told you they were eyeballs?

 

That mental delusion was pulled even on me. One day I went to dinner with my sister. She served me beer and after 3 I was feeling buzzed. Then she SHOWED me the reality that the "beer" was non alcoholic beer".

NDE is no fucking different. It is mentally missinterpreting an intense feeling brought on by natural processses and stupidly confusing it for magic, just like I wanted to believe that that beer was real beer.

Dont you fucking call me close minded when you wont even consider a natural expination when all you have is a bullshit naked assertion.

THE NATURAL expinaition for "NDE" is simple, people like the thought of an after life and do not understand the mundane reality that they are merely fooling themselves just like that placebo beer worked on me.

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TWD39 wrote:Real case of

TWD39 wrote:

Real case of what?  If you are claiming that I am this Paisley character then you are absolutely wrong, and you have no evidence to prove it.  I only joined this forum a few months ago so I advise you drop it.

If Paisley is female, I'm certain TWD is not her--the name associated with his e-mail address is most definitely male.

I'm curious as to why you continue to ignore me, TWD. Is it because I haven't been mean to you, and you don't want to admit that atheists can be nice people too?

 


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Anonymouse wrote:I'm

Anonymouse wrote:

I'm starting to suspect it makes people very cranky. 

It certainly seems to, at that.

 


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Vastet wrote:I try. We know!

Vastet wrote:
I try. blushing

We know! but the real question is are you so good because you practice all the time or because it comes naturally? Smiling

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Brian37 wrote:Quote:That is

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
That is a narrow minded way of thinking especially since you haven't examined each case

If one person comes up to you and claims that their is a multiple armed elephant god who you can pray to, are you being closed minded by rejecting it?

If another person comes up to you and claims that ouija boards work, are you being closed minded by rejecting that cliam?

If another person claims that slamming planes into buildings will get you a cosmic harem in an afterlife, will that make you closed minded if you reject such a claim?

Close  minded is refusing to look for a natural expination. Close minded is hitting a gap and incerting bullshit into it because you are too lazy to do any testing.

The ammount of people making an absurd claim does not make that absurd claim true otherwise the earth would be flat and the sun would rotate arround the earth because CLOSED MINDED ASSHOLES did not care to investigate becuase they thought they had the answer.

If popularity of making ANY claim were true, then because 4 billion people claim Allah to be the one true god, then by proxy of your stupid childish condecending logic you are being close minded because you are not examining each of those muslims claims case by case.

Close minded is hitting a gap and filling it with bullshit.

It is not close minded to say that the brain is physical. WE CAN FUCKING PROVE THAT. Go to any morgue and you can split a human skull and see the brain. We also know that humans can and often mistake what they see or feel as something else. Ever stick your hand in a covered bowl of olives in a dark room as a kid during Holloween AFTER someone told you they were eyeballs?

That mental delusion was pulled even on me. One day I went to dinner with my sister. She served me beer and after 3 I was feeling buzzed. Then she SHOWED me the reality that the "beer" was non alcoholic beer".

NDE is no fucking different. It is mentally missinterpreting an intense feeling brought on by natural processses and stupidly confusing it for magic, just like I wanted to believe that that beer was real beer.

Dont you fucking call me close minded when you wont even consider a natural expination when all you have is a bullshit naked assertion.

THE NATURAL expinaition for "NDE" is simple, people like the thought of an after life and do not understand the mundane reality that they are merely fooling themselves just like that placebo beer worked on me.

I was thinking the same thing.

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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.

Damasius wrote:
Let me start with this first, off course it gives an indication about the truth tof the claim, it becomes an empiric fatc., that we ass human beings experience the supernatural.
 

If humans can experience the supernatural then either the experience is natural or you need a new definition of supernatural. You can't have it both ways.

 

 

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