Looking the bully in the eye sometimes is not easy for me.

Zeeboe
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Looking the bully in the eye sometimes is not easy for me.

Fair warning - Long post
 
I am an almost 30-year old man and feeling bullied is never a good thing no matter what age you are. I find myself letting things go whenever I am offended too often in life. It's not so much that I'm a coward. I just (figuratively speaking) grew up in what felt like a World War 3 battlefield, and I just can't stand cruelty and negativity, and would whether not contribute to it, even if my feelings are righteous. I prefer peace, love, and unity, and sometimes I am willing to pay any price for those things. I just hate the feelings afterwards where I feel like I was ambushed because I never saw the rudeness coming, and then I feel like a coward as well for perhaps not reacting the right way to it, and then finally there is that fear that I may be walked on again if I don't speak out.

It's just a shame others - Even the people who are suppose to love you, and you love them - have to litreally *force* you into a position where you have no choice but to fight for your most basic human rights sometimes - With your fists, words, or your head. Anytime I do stand up for myself, it always seems to feel like a Pyrrhic victory. The alternative to not speaking out however is being victimized again. Nature is truly scary.

This is why I wish I could afford my own private island so I can hide from everyone.
 
 
The reason why I typed all that is because my sister is in town with her kids. Three girls who I truly love. So we're at my parents place, and my nieces are getting ready for bed. I read them a bed-time story, and then my sister and my nieces said their prayers. She asked each girl what she is thankful towards Jesus for.
 
My sister then looks at me - Yup, she asked. Smiling She knows I am an Athiest, but she asks anyway. At first, I just said "I abstain."
 
She then said my name to me in a stern voice like I was one of her kids. I was then a bit baffled, so I said "Uhhh....." and looked at nearby painting of Jesus and said "Nice picture, bro?" and held my thumb up and looked at her for "approval". I was trying to be funny. She then said my name again, and told me to thank Jesus for something. Although her tone change to a mix of sounding stern to sounding a bit desperate. So I said "Thank you for something." - Again, trying to be a wise-guy. The jokes were very corny, but it's hard for me to come up with funny stuff on the spot sometimes.
 
My sister then gave up, and moved on to my Ma.
 
Needless to say I was offended.
 
 
My sis and Ma were going out to dinner. I already ate, so they dropped me off at my apartment. My sis was telling my Ma a story about how she recently told her oldest daughter about special needs kids, and that "God still loves them."
 
I was a little angry still, but also still had that feeling of being ambushed. i.e. Confused. But I asked "God, why did you do that?" (Again, trying to be funny because I said it in a tone like I was not litreally talking to God.) There was awkward silence in the car, and my sister again said my name in this stern tone like she's my boss. I just laughed, kissed and squeezed her cheek, and said "Charlie Darwin loves you! Remember that!" - Mocking the whole "Jesus loves you" nonsense, and she just said something like "I believe in God" and "You're wrong" or something, and I just laughed, and ignored it. We all said our good-bye's, and that was that.
 
Anyhow, I was brooding over this for a good while, so I decided I needed to confront her, and it couldn't wait. I called her. No answer. So I texted this to her instead -
 
"Hi. Ya know I love ya, and my nieces, which is why I need to be honest. I have a request - Please don't openly ask me to speak to Jesus in front of them again. Sad It makes me uncomfortable. And I just would like to be around you ladies without having that fear that I am going to be asked to pray. You know I am not a believer, but I promise to always respect your beliefs, but I need you to please respect mine. Love you."
 
She JUST texted me back -
 
"I will, but please also respect my and the girls faith and not mock our beliefs. Smiling love you."
 
My response -
 
"Let's just not talk directly about it to each other in front of them. Deal? Smiling
 
"Deal. Smiling"
 
"We are both epic diplomats! Our parents could learn from us. lol. See ya tomorrow. Night'."
 
 
 
*facepalm*
 
*pulls hair out*
 
 
AHHHHH!!!!! I mean, WTF man? SHE brought this whole nonsense up! She's telling me not to mock her fairy tale, but guess what? I wouldn't MOCK your fucking fairy tale if YOU did not dump Jesus on my lap!!!!
 
 
GRRRRRR!!!!
 
lol. Okay, well, clearly I couldn't text her THAT.....or shit would have hit the fan.
 
 
I'm glad the nonsense is over. At least I hope it is. I can sense she is a bit offended, but I hope she let's this shit go. AGAIN - She started all this, so she has no reason to even be pissed. *I* should be pissed.
 
 
But that's the story of my life, man. The school bully fucks with me, so I fuck with him back, and then all of a sudden, everyone is pointing at me like *I* am the asshole.
 
 
Okay, I could use some help from you kind folks. Smiling - First, this is not the first time my sister has done this to me. One time her and her kids were singing Christian songs, and my niece asked me to join in, and my sister just grinned and laughed at me because she knew how I felt, which is why tonight I HAD to say something, or I know this won't stop.
 
I feel like such a sissy. A sissy for my responses to it all at first, but again, in my defense - I never saw this coming, and I feel like my sarcastic, and cheesy jokes were lame. And I also feel like a sissy for being like a sissy. I was actually nervous as I called her. It's not like I am scared my sister is gonna kick my ass. LOL. I just hate conflict. I admit it. And I hate that I hate it. Again, if anyone should be pissed off and bitter, it's me. It's just the whole vibe that I am essentially picking negativity over love.
 
 
I feel better about making the call, and sending the text. Although it feels like a Pyrrhic victory like always, but hopefully I am just being paranoid. I may also ask my sister how she would like it if a Muslim asked her to pray to Allah if she presses this, which I hope she doesn't, but it's a good ace to hold onto.
 
 
I like to be a positive guy and I hate when stuff like this happens. I love my nieces so much, I could actually cry because I care for them so much. Sad Which is WHY I don't like LYING to them. I feel like a jerk enough as it is for going along with the Santa Claus stuff. It's because of my love for them however that with the GOD nonsense, I can't lie to them. I just can't. ONE day they are going to have to know how their Uncle feels about the subject, and I just hope they don't pick the guy they can't hear or see over me - The guy who can see and hear them, and talks to them, and gives them stuff, and doesn't expect them to "humble themselves before me" like the Christian God does, nor would I ever send them to a place to burn forever all for offending my ego.
 
 
I swear man - Ya try to avoid drama, but drama looks for you. I love my sister too, but damn, she can be a BITCH sometimes. And I guarantee ya my sister and my parents are over there right now talking about what an asshole *I* am. Again - NONE of this would have happened if my sister didn't do her little nonsense tonight. Fuckin' Christians man. ALWAYS causing crap, then playing the victims afteralls.
 
"To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction."
 
 
Some people need to learn that.
 
 
 
RANT MODE OFF. Smiling
 
 
Thanks for letting me vent, and for this forum. I don't think there is any other place on the web where I could have rambled about all this.

 


Zeeboe
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Ouch. I SWEAR there were

edited by Sapient: Zeeboe, I corrected your posting error in the first post and removed this for you.

 


cj
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I am not your

I am not your therapist. 

 

You might see if there is a low cost/free option for you in your area, however.  You need to talk to someone. 

First, how old are the neices?  If they are - oh - under 5 what you say is different than if they are under 10.  If they are still believing in Santa, they are pretty young to be dropping in the middle of an argument between you and your sister.  Your sister was a bully for asking you to thank Jesus in front of them.  But if they are still believing in Santa, they are too young to for you to kick off a fight with you sister in front of them.  It is normal for very young children to believe in Santa and the Easter Bunny and such.  It won't hurt them to believe - or not.  If they believe, the other kids will disabuse them of their fantasies once they hit school.  The Jesus thing is tougher because the other kids will likely support their belief rather than make fun of it.

You have choices.  Again, it is hard for me to give advice when I don't know you or your family.  But given those circumstances, I would have played along - mostly.  Thank Jesus for biologists.  Thank Jesus for geneticists.  Thank Jesus for paleontologists.  Thank Jesus for physicists.  Etc.  You get the picture.  It may piss your sister off royally, and if she starts, you need to move her and her argument out of your neices room.  Later, if they ask, you can explain to them what science is, how it is a process that allows us to make discoveries so we can have computers and TV and cars and indoor plumbing.  Knowing, of course, that your sister would have already said something to them about how you were joking or being mean.  And if so, they will ask you about what mom said - little kids are great for telling secrets.  And you can tell them you were serious but you don't believe that Jesus ever really was real.  And you were thanking this imaginary man try to make your sister happy.  They will likely understand all too well about making your sister happy.

Now, not believing in Jesus, you can explain when they are older and Santa fantasies are long gone.  You will always have your sister pounding religion into their heads, and she has the right by law.  You can answer questions as they come up with science.  If you are kind of weak on the subject, get eduated now before they are ready for those answers.

Losing your temper with a bully, related to you or not, will not win an argument or stop the bullying.  You know that.  So don't go there.  And don't count on your sister to respect your beliefs.  Try to respect hers - if you can take and keep the high road, your neices will notice who is playing fair and who isn't.  And don't worry about thanking Jesus for scientists when you really don't believe.  It is a game for now while they are young.  Treat it like one.

If you don't want to be separated from the girls you will need to be very careful.  Don't be alone with them, don't encourage them to go against their mom, and so on.  If I were you, I would not offer to babysit - ever.  Any excuse ..... and you will be permanently separated. 

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Cpt_pineapple
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Why do people always assume

Why do people always assume that the default response is try your best to make your family happy?

 

 

 


cj
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Cpt_pineapple wrote:Why do

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Why do people always assume that the default response is try your best to make your family happy?

 

If he really wants to keep in touch with his neices, I don't see any other way than to try to keep the family from outright denying him access to the girls.  As an uncle, he has no legal rights.  When they are adults and can do what they want to do, then he can piss off the rest of his family as much as he wants.

Personally, I would think having a uncle that you care for, who is not a Jesus believer but is a really nice guy, would be a great way to keep his neices from totally sucking up the religion bullpucky.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Zeeboe wrote:Fair warning -

Zeeboe wrote:

Fair warning - Long post I am an almost 30-year old man and feeling bullied is never a good thing no matter what age you are. I find myself letting things go whenever I am offended too often in life. It's not so much that I'm a coward. I just (figuratively speaking) grew up in what felt like a World War 3 battlefield, and I just can't stand cruelty and negativity, and would whether not contribute to it, even if my feelings are righteous. I prefer peace, love, and unity, and sometimes I am willing to pay any price for those things. I just hate the feelings afterwards where I feel like I was ambushed because I never saw the rudeness coming, and then I feel like a coward as well for perhaps not reacting the right way to it, and then finally there is that fear that I may be walked on again if I don't speak out.

It's just a shame others - Even the people who are suppose to love you, and you love them - have to litreally *force* you into a position where you have no choice but to fight for your most basic human rights sometimes - With your fists, words, or your head. Anytime I do stand up for myself, it always seems to feel like a Pyrrhic victory. The alternative to not speaking out however is being victimized again. Nature is truly scary.

This is why I wish I could afford my own private island so I can hide from everyone.
  The reason why I typed all that is because my sister is in town with her kids. Three girls who I truly love. So we're at my parents place, and my nieces are getting ready for bed. I read them a bed-time story, and then my sister and my nieces said their prayers. She asked each girl what she is thankful towards Jesus for. My sister then looks at me - Yup, she asked. Smiling She knows I am an Athiest, but she asks anyway. At first, I just said "I abstain." She then said my name to me in a stern voice like I was one of her kids. I was then a bit baffled, so I said "Uhhh....." and looked at nearby painting of Jesus and said "Nice picture, bro?" and held my thumb up and looked at her for "approval". I was trying to be funny. She then said my name again, and told me to thank Jesus for something. Although her tone change to a mix of sounding stern to sounding a bit desperate. So I said "Thank you for something." - Again, trying to be a wise-guy. The jokes were very corny, but it's hard for me to come up with funny stuff on the spot sometimes. My sister then gave up, and moved on to my Ma. Needless to say I was offended.  My sis and Ma were going out to dinner. I already ate, so they dropped me off at my apartment. My sis was telling my Ma a story about how she recently told her oldest daughter about special needs kids, and that "God still loves them." I was a little angry still, but also still had that feeling of being ambushed. i.e. Confused. But I asked "God, why did you do that?" (Again, trying to be funny because I said it in a tone like I was not litreally talking to God.) There was awkward silence in the car, and my sister again said my name in this stern tone like she's my boss. I just laughed, kissed and squeezed her cheek, and said "Charlie Darwin loves you! Remember that!" - Mocking the whole "Jesus loves you" nonsense, and she just said something like "I believe in God" and "You're wrong" or something, and I just laughed, and ignored it. We all said our good-bye's, and that was that. Anyhow, I was brooding over this for a good while, so I decided I needed to confront her, and it couldn't wait. I called her. No answer. So I texted this to her instead - "Hi. Ya know I love ya, and my nieces, which is why I need to be honest. I have a request - Please don't openly ask me to speak to Jesus in front of them again. Sad It makes me uncomfortable. And I just would like to be around you ladies without having that fear that I am going to be asked to pray. You know I am not a believer, but I promise to always respect your beliefs, but I need you to please respect mine. Love you." She JUST texted me back - "I will, but please also respect my and the girls faith and not mock our beliefs. Smiling love you." My response - "Let's just not talk directly about it to each other in front of them. Deal? Smiling "Deal. Smiling" "We are both epic diplomats! Our parents could learn from us. lol. See ya tomorrow. Night'."   *facepalm* *pulls hair out*  AHHHHH!!!!! I mean, WTF man? SHE brought this whole nonsense up! She's telling me not to mock her fairy tale, but guess what? I wouldn't MOCK your fucking fairy tale if YOU did not dump Jesus on my lap!!!!  GRRRRRR!!!! lol. Okay, well, clearly I couldn't text her THAT.....or shit would have hit the fan.  I'm glad the nonsense is over. At least I hope it is. I can sense she is a bit offended, but I hope she let's this shit go. AGAIN - She started all this, so she has no reason to even be pissed. *I* should be pissed.  But that's the story of my life, man. The school bully fucks with me, so I fuck with him back, and then all of a sudden, everyone is pointing at me like *I* am the asshole.  Okay, I could use some help from you kind folks. Smiling - First, this is not the first time my sister has done this to me. One time her and her kids were singing Christian songs, and my niece asked me to join in, and my sister just grinned and laughed at me because she knew how I felt, which is why tonight I HAD to say something, or I know this won't stop. I feel like such a sissy. A sissy for my responses to it all at first, but again, in my defense - I never saw this coming, and I feel like my sarcastic, and cheesy jokes were lame. And I also feel like a sissy for being like a sissy. I was actually nervous as I called her. It's not like I am scared my sister is gonna kick my ass. LOL. I just hate conflict. I admit it. And I hate that I hate it. Again, if anyone should be pissed off and bitter, it's me. It's just the whole vibe that I am essentially picking negativity over love.  I feel better about making the call, and sending the text. Although it feels like a Pyrrhic victory like always, but hopefully I am just being paranoid. I may also ask my sister how she would like it if a Muslim asked her to pray to Allah if she presses this, which I hope she doesn't, but it's a good ace to hold onto.  I like to be a positive guy and I hate when stuff like this happens. I love my nieces so much, I could actually cry because I care for them so much. Sad Which is WHY I don't like LYING to them. I feel like a jerk enough as it is for going along with the Santa Claus stuff. It's because of my love for them however that with the GOD nonsense, I can't lie to them. I just can't. ONE day they are going to have to know how their Uncle feels about the subject, and I just hope they don't pick the guy they can't hear or see over me - The guy who can see and hear them, and talks to them, and gives them stuff, and doesn't expect them to "humble themselves before me" like the Christian God does, nor would I ever send them to a place to burn forever all for offending my ego.  I swear man - Ya try to avoid drama, but drama looks for you. I love my sister too, but damn, she can be a BITCH sometimes. And I guarantee ya my sister and my parents are over there right now talking about what an asshole *I* am. Again - NONE of this would have happened if my sister didn't do her little nonsense tonight. Fuckin' Christians man. ALWAYS causing crap, then playing the victims afteralls. "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction."  Some people need to learn that.   RANT MODE OFF. Smiling  Thanks for letting me vent, and for this forum. I don't think there is any other place on the web where I could have rambled about all this.

 

Quote:
"To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction."

That is really not a healthy attitude and most certainly not true in human evolution. Sometimes good things happen to bad people and sometimes bad things happen to good people. It is ok to rant, and most certainly it is more than ok to vent to like minded people over problems you have in life. But this is quote above smacks of childish revenge.

When it comes to family especially, you learn to pick your battles. And ultimately you cannot deny their self, OR your own self. So the question becomes how much can you tollerate without expecting her to be a clone of you. If it becomes to much, just like a marriage or friendship, the healthy thing would be to part ways. I am not saying that is the case in your case, just that you can only control you, not her.

You've made your request, if she doesn't stick to it, then it is up to you as to what to do, continue to tollerate it, or cut ties. But what you cannot do is control her.

I have a Catholic mother who knows I am an atheist. I have a biological family outside my adoption whom I get along with all believe to some degree, all accept my older brother, who is far to nutty religiously, but even so outside the issue of god claims. He once threatened to beat me up over an issue of an aunt I asked to take care of an ill cat I had at the time. It was between me and her, not him.

You don't have to let people walk all over you, but you also don't have any more of a right to demand someone else conform to you. You can make a request and come to an agreement, and if that agreement is broken, then you have to make a cost benifet assesment as to if continuing the realitionship is worth it.

I am NOT giving you any advice other than to say that the "ONE DAY I'LL SHOW YOU", is not a mature attitude to take. It should be about conflict resolution, which you seem to have tried with her, but after that it becomes solely your chioce as to how you deal with it. Don't get into power struggles with others, not just her, but anyone. If you are uncomfortable in ANY relationship, only you can stay or go, but you cannot control others.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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And also, be carefull

And also, be carefull throwing the word "bully" arround. I agree that as a societal climate religion is the majority and also a bully. BUT, once you strip all religious political labels and religious labels and look at humans as part of evolution, we are all minorities to some other group when you look at the world's 7 billion.

For example, Muslims and Seikhs and atheists are bullied by Christians in America. But if you are Christian or atheist in Iran, the same is true. Muslims there bully the minorities. So the problem is a lack of human understanding of the relationship of the  alpha group vs the subordinate group, which has always been part of the power struggle in human evolution.

BUT, it is NOT bullying when you can leave a situation. I get pissed at both atheists and theists who go to websites they don't own and falsely claim that they are being bullied. It would be true if the government were forcing one to post on a website where they are the minority. But if no one is putting a gun to your head, and you can leave any time you want, then it is not bullying. It would be like going into a house you don't own and demanding the owner smoke when they dont smoke.

If you really want to be the "bigger person" with your sister let her be herself, and if her kids are that important to you, then you have to take the good with the bad. But if you are ever at the point WITH ANYONE where you feel they suck the life out of you, then don't let that person drag you down, stay mentaly healthy and keep your distence.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Zeeboe
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Thank you for the answers. I

Thank you Brian S. for fixing the post, and thank you everyone else for the answers. I fully read all of them. I'm insecure as hell, but I can agree that learning not to be so easily offended is the route to take, especially when it comes to family.

 

I know no one is a shrink, and I'm honestly not trying to turn anyone into one or wear out my welcome. I just don't know any other Atheists. In fact, I'd say I've met a very small amount of Atheists in real life and it has not been recent. All the head doctors I have visited in the past were Christians by the way. Plus, I've learned that I am truly strong enough to handle most of my issues, and I know the answers. So I am my own headshrinker. When it comes to conflicts such as these however, I'm clueless, and wisdom from people who have been open Atheists longer then I have is always needed. I know I've been ranting a lot lately, so I'll give it a rest and will start contributing to other threads instead of always making things about Zeeboe when I visit.

Thank you again.


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 I can relate Zeeboe, I

 I can relate Zeeboe, I have been in nearly the exact same situation with my sister and her children, and yeah it is bullying because she is holding the biggest stick of all the threat of preventing you from seeing your nieces- I would rather be threatened with having the shit beat out of me with a blunt object. The problem is that you don't really have any power in the situation and she has all of it.

As for you response, your initial one probably wasn't the best but when you are thrust unexpectedly into an uncomfortable situation it is hard to think clearly. The jokes certainly don't help but I think the text that you sent her was honest, mature and respectful. Now whether she is going to be decent enough to respect your beliefs I can't say. For my situation, I made an agreement with my sister that I wouldn't discuss religion with the kids and I would be quiet and respectful during their silly ceremonies like prayer before eating, slip out a little amen but would not participate directly. In return she avoids calling me out to say things or prayers and doesn't ask me to go to church and the like. So far it has worked for us. Ironically, I have no such problems with my brother who is the missionary, he respects my views and if the kids ask things like "why didn't you go to church with us?" he quickly distracts them (his kids are 6 and 4 so easily distracted) and he says that when they are old enough he will explain that I am an atheist and I have different beliefs.

But it is always extremely nerve racking dealing with a sibling when you really fear they might prevent you from seeing your nieces or nephews. My sister has banned my ex-wife from seeing them even though my ex was their aunt for 8 years (the kids were 9 and 8 when we got divorced so their entire lives) I got in a big fight with her over it and she directly threatened not to let me see the kids. There is no way to win, but I swear the day my niece turns 18 I am going to tell her that her Auntie loves her and explain to her what happened and she is more than welcome to come visit anytime. Then I am going to call my sister and tell her what a hateful, spiteful bitch she has been. It will probably be the last time in my life I will talk to my sister which is fine because I can't stand putting on the fake smile and pretending to be all nice to her after what she has done, but I really don't see another choice.

It pisses me off when theists expect us to respect their beliefs, but have absolutely no respect for ours in return. You deserve to have your beliefs respected, unfortunately, she has all the power. Good luck. 


Vastet
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I would have immediately

I would have immediately said there is no such thing as jesus, and that if she wants to brainwash her kids she can find someone else to help her.

Bullies piss me off. I don't tolerate them. At all.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Beyond Saving wrote: It

Beyond Saving wrote:

 It pisses me off when theists expect us to respect their beliefs, but have absolutely no respect for ours in return. You deserve to have your beliefs respected, unfortunately, she has all the power. Good luck. 

You and me both. Theists are forever whining about their rights, but want to whine and rub our faces into their religion and expect us to tolerate it. Fuck that.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


iwbiek
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your use of the word bully

your use of the word bully here is 100% correct.  anytime someone can see that another person is uncomfortable in a situation, yet insists on trying to keep them in that situation, that person is being a bully.  your sister knew damn well how you felt about the situation, and could have easily completed her daughters' bedtime ritual without even glancing in your direction, but no, she decided to bring you into it unnecessarily.  if her girls had asked, "why doesn't uncle so-and-so thank jesus for something?" a mature woman would at least say something like, "uncle so-and-so prays differently than we do," or "uncle so-and-so has already prayed today."  quite frankly, it seems to me she wanted to take a cheap shot and get you to pay lip-service to her beliefs by using her girls as weapons.  then after you tried to defuse an extremely awkward situation with every off-guard person's last desperate go-to, nervous humor, she had the nerve to say you were "mocking" her beliefs.

personally, i endorse vastet's approach.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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iwbiek wrote:your use of the

iwbiek wrote:

your use of the word bully here is 100% correct.  anytime someone can see that another person is uncomfortable in a situation, yet insists on trying to keep them in that situation, that person is being a bully.  your sister knew damn well how you felt about the situation, and could have easily completed her daughters' bedtime ritual without even glancing in your direction, but no, she decided to bring you into it unnecessarily.  if her girls had asked, "why doesn't uncle so-and-so thank jesus for something?" a mature woman would at least say something like, "uncle so-and-so prays differently than we do," or "uncle so-and-so has already prayed today."  quite frankly, it seems to me she wanted to take a cheap shot and get you to pay lip-service to her beliefs by using her girls as weapons.  then after you tried to defuse an extremely awkward situation with every off-guard person's last desperate go-to, nervous humor, she had the nerve to say you were "mocking" her beliefs.

personally, i endorse vastet's approach.

I second Vastet's approach and agree with every word that iwbiek said.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Hi Zeeb

 

as an obnoxious atheist - read argumentative - I always firmly eschew christianity on the basis of the moral inconsistency in the face of my evangelical family. At Christmas that might be 20 or 30 people, depending. And yeah, I have nieces and nephews who are fundamentalists in their own right. It can get uncomfortable and there's often a sense in me at Christmas that I should have no more to do with them. The idea people can judge you as evil on the basis of your unbelief system is galling. 

In your case, I don't think you should be beating yourself up for being a nice guy. But you have an equal right to an opinion. Your position is not immoral but quite the opposite. If all you are doing is abstaining from praying or paying lip service to Jesus it sounds harmless to me. You could thank Gaia for creating complex life. Or you could negotiate with your sister by email so you can really speak your mind without the face-to-face challenge and bring her to an understanding of the way you think so she does not put you on the spot in front of the kids. 

The christian (muslim and no doubt jewish), belief that unbelievers are corrupt is a a form of bigotry that has real world consequences. Your sister should be judging you on your actions, not on your adherence to arbitrary cultural noises that allows the establishment of an ideological in-group. She should also accept that her home ought to reflect the laws of the country in which she lives - that includes respecting freedom of religious belief. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Wah, fucking wah wah

Wah, fucking wah wah – and  you’s coming crying to me?

‘Nice guys’ are such a problem to women – how do we know what you feel – if you don’t tell us?

Watch my lips – you’re post reeks with so much repressed anger you give passive-aggression a new meaning – it fuckin’ leaks out between your words.

Look buster, stop messing with my head, be direct, grow a pair and tell the bitch how you really feel, then take the consequences, ok?
 

Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
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I have balls. I told her how

First, please don't call my sister a bitch. Second, I have balls. I told her how I felt. If I was a pussy, I wouldn't have said anything, and hell, I just made a damn Facebook status update defending President Obama, and for some of the people on my friends list, I might as well be praising Satan. I then owned this redneck who could be a character out of that film "Straw Dogs". (The remake.) He said (among other things) that the U.S.A. was based on Christian values, and I quickly put him in his place. These are people I know in real life too, so there is a chance I'll see them.

Anyhow, you didn't grow up in my house, and you don't know what kind of people I had to be around. I've come a very long way and have proven myself time in and time out. I NEVER asked to be born a man. I'm just trying to survive it.

 

Having typed that - Please don't mistake kindness with weakness. I whether be a nice guy then an asshole, and I whether be single for the rest of my life then sell-out and become some gross, selfish, macho, redneck, and perverted prick who has to hurt other men and kill helpless animals to score points, and I wouldn't desire to be with a woman who craves those types of men.

 

The problem with me losing my temper is that I love my nieces, and if I get pissed, I might lose access to seeing them. I think as long as I am firm, but kind all should be well.


While I can admit that confrontation use to be a big problem, I have gotten better with it, and while I may be nervous sometimes beforehand, as soon as it begins, I seem to calm down. I have looked plenty of Christians in the eye over the years and told them I am not religious. With family I guess it can be a bit harder talking about the topic because I prefer a peaceful setting.

From what I can see, most Christians are very threatened by Atheists. The Christians know they themselves are full of it, and Athiests are a threat to their fantasy's. So sometimes the smallest things can put a Christian in line. So I like to think I not only made it clear that I am not going to play along, but that I will let my feelings be known that I will not be easily coerced. My sister desires a peaceful setting too since she also grew up in the same crazy household that I did where our parents got into very intense fights. So hopefully my boldness bought some peace, and this will not become an issue again until I have to tell my nieces one day how I feel.
 


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Zeeboe wrote:I love my

Zeeboe wrote:
I love my sister too, but damn, she can be a BITCH sometimes…..


First, please don't call my sister a bitch.


POT- KETTLE- BLACK - you started the name calling of your sis Sunshine – no?


Quote:
The problem with me losing my temper is that I love my nieces, and if I get pissed, I might lose access to seeing them.


Losing your nieces is the heart of this issue and as long as you have to stay attached then your sister has all the power.  You KNOW she has you over a barrel but you don’t have the guts to confront it.


Quote:
I think as long as I am firm, but kind all should be well….. Please don't mistake kindness with weakness.


Being a phony is the root of your anger because being  fucking bogus is the basis of all cruelty and that’s why I say you’re not kind but a cruelian - mascarading as a nice guy - geddit?   You call that kindness - I call it being a FAKE that’s all – tell me I’m wrong?
 

Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
Tony de Mello


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Some people have trouble

Some people have trouble recognizing the end of a conversation. It's awkward because you have to let them know in explicit terms that the conversation has in fact reached its conclusion unless you are willing to listen to whatever else they have to say. As I see it there's nobody to blame really. Just be clear about it in the future.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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thelilith wrote: Being a

thelilith wrote:

 


Being a phony is the root of your anger because being  fucking bogus is the basis of all cruelty and that’s why I say you’re not kind but a cruelian - mascarading as a nice guy - geddit?   You call that kindness - I call it being a FAKE that’s all – tell me I’m wrong?
 

you're wrong and you're a fuckin' prick.  on top of that, you're as phony as they come, asswipe.  you have the gall to pretend you can dictate what it means to be "real" and "courageous," all while inflicting your smegma on a guy who decided to open himself up to possible mockery because he thought it might be therapeutic to vent his bewilderment and frustration in a place where he thought he'd be among friends.  you are officially the first and only person to take advantage of that opening in order to make yourself feel like your dick grew a couple inches. 

that makes you a bully, too.  now, Zeeboe did an exceptional job of calling you on the horse menses coming out of your mouth, but i'm gonna be selfish and step in here and say i'm a peacemaker myself, but i would gladly rearrange your face for you, regardless of how big you might be, cumwad.  the only thing your size changes is whether or not i use my right fist or reach for one of the good old-fashioned, solid steel czechoslovak monkey wrenches i got hanging in my workshop.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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About How you 'feel' . . . .

thelilith wrote:

Wah, fucking wah wah – and  you’s coming crying to me?

‘Nice guys’ are such a problem to women – how do we know what you feel – if you don’t tell us?

Watch my lips – you’re post reeks with so much repressed anger you give passive-aggression a new meaning – it fuckin’ leaks out between your words.

Look buster, stop messing with my head, be direct, grow a pair and tell the bitch how you really feel, then take the consequences, ok?
 

 

Zeeboe wrote:

From what I can see, most Christians are very threatened by Atheists. The Christians know they themselves are full of it, and Athiests are a threat to their fantasy's. So sometimes the smallest things can put a Christian in line. So I like to think I not only made it clear that I am not going to play along, but that I will let my feelings be known that I will not be easily coerced. My sister desires a peaceful setting too since she also grew up in the same crazy household that I did where our parents got into very intense fights. So hopefully my boldness bought some peace, and this will not become an issue again until I have to tell my nieces one day how I feel.
 

  Don't act like a fucking punk! I'm not getting down on you when I say this, please know. I have seen you've been on this board a long time but I have noticed little from you. If you had a better handle on the 'why' of why you dont believe, and were better able to articulate communicate that, (the anti-apologetic). There's a good chance, you would not continue in these  quarrels. If you made it more about the intellect and less about how you feel, they would begrudgingly learn to accept what is. Because they'd have to. It might be where you need to process these emotions, independent of you family and not in their presence. You are allowing emotions to spill out all over the place, IMHO.  Smiling

 

 

Gauche wrote:
Some people have trouble recognizing the end of a conversation. It's awkward because you have to let them know in explicit terms that the conversation has in fact reached its conclusion unless you are willing to listen to whatever else they have to say. As I see it there's nobody to blame really.

  Gauche seems to be making the observation (from the little we have to go on).

 

 

 

 


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thelilitih - I can call my

thelilitih - I can call my sister a bitch because she's my sister, not yours. I have to deal with her, and you don't, so you have no reason to be calling her names. I was also angry when I called her that. Anyhow, I am starting to smell a troll when I speak to you, so I don't plan to take you too seriously, but I also am not going to let you define me. 

I am a very intelligent and strong man. This thread does not reflect all of me. I admit, I don't know everything, and this is honestly the only board I'd say that has members smarter then me. Smiling On other forums and in real life however, I represent atheism very, very well. However, it's because I don't know everything that sometimes in my moments of weakness and fear, I need to come here to seek wisdom. I'm Luke Skywalker, and this forum is like my Yoda. Smiling

Having typed that - I am not going to start World War 3 in my family just to impress you or anyone. I care more about my family. I whether not get into deep chats as to why I am an Atheist with them. I have many years ago, and if they ask, I will be happy to tell them, but it will only increase the heat, and I whether not have that for the sake of peace. Between the chat my sister and I had, and the minor drama I started on Facebook today, my sister clearly knows where I stand, and I believe she will respect that.


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iwbiek wrote:thelilith

iwbiek wrote:

thelilith wrote:

 


Being a phony is the root of your anger because being  fucking bogus is the basis of all cruelty and that’s why I say you’re not kind but a cruelian - mascarading as a nice guy - geddit?   You call that kindness - I call it being a FAKE that’s all – tell me I’m wrong?
 

you're wrong and you're a fuckin' prick.  on top of that, you're as phony as they come, asswipe.  you have the gall to pretend you can dictate what it means to be "real" and "courageous," all while inflicting your smegma on a guy who decided to open himself up to possible mockery because he thought it might be therapeutic to vent his bewilderment and frustration in a place where he thought he'd be among friends.  you are officially the first and only person to take advantage of that opening in order to make yourself feel like your dick grew a couple inches. 

that makes you a bully, too.  now, Zeeboe did an exceptional job of calling you on the horse menses coming out of your mouth, but i'm gonna be selfish and step in here and say i'm a peacemaker myself, but i would gladly rearrange your face for you, regardless of how big you might be, cumwad.  the only thing your size changes is whether or not i use my right fist or reach for one of the good old-fashioned, solid steel czechoslovak monkey wrenches i got hanging in my workshop.

ok, just realized this asshole is probably a woman so i retract the hypothetical bit about rearranging faces, but everything else stands.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


GodsUseForAMosquito
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 From longstanding and

 From longstanding and repeated arguments with my brother and mother on contentious topics, I certainly understand where you're coming from, and I'd add that it's extremely difficult to maintain an entirely intellectual stance on things without bringing in emotion- sometimes family is just too close.

In my case it's not a religious thing we come to loggerheads about, more things like Astrology, homeopathy,acupuncture and every conspiracy theory you can think of and more - whenever we get together we seem to just drag each other down into these heated debates that none of us want, but can't help doing. There have been tears of frustration at times. In our quieter moments we tell each other how pointless it is, and we should all have our own opinions etc, but then there's another reference to how I should have some Homeopathy for my damaged back, and off we go again.

Nowadays I just bite my lip, and say nothing. It takes all my willpower to do so, and it's very obvious what I'm doing, but I think it speaks louder than going off on one and achieving nothing.

You sister is using unintentional emotional blackmail on you by making you feel awkward in front of your nieces. It's not fair, but I think she genuinely believes that you have a duty to 'help' her kids believe in god. From her perspective, you have strayed and that's your choice, but you should be prepared to keep her kids on the 'right' path. It's messed up reasoning, but from her subjective viewpoint it's probably that that's how she thinks. It's difficult to do much about - If I were in your situation I would consider that it is not my responsibility to be the voice of Atheism in front of her children - especially if they are very young. If she asked me what I'm thankful to Jesus for, I would reply that 'I am thankful that I have 'niece names' in my life' - you can be thankful and leave out the word Jesus...

When they are older they will no doubt overhear your discussions on faith as family debates around the dinner table, and take what they want from these.. When they are ready to question, they will.

 

Just my 0.2c

 


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Gauche wrote:As I see it

Gauche wrote:
As I see it there's nobody to blame really.

 
What’s the point of blaming you have to look at what is and Zeeboe’s sister holds all the power - if he doesn’t conform to what she wants him to do she uses the children as weapons to get him to toe the line.


iwbiek wrote:
your use of the word bully here is 100% correct.  anytime someone can see that another person is uncomfortable in a situation, yet insists on trying to keep them in that situation, that person is being a bully


Zeeboe knows this and he’s tried to solve the problem passively with jokes, sarcasm and distractions but what he hasn’t done is acknowledge to himself how angry and powerless he is in this situation and his unacknowledged rage festers on underneath.

Zeeboe wrote:
Having typed that - I am not going to start World War 3 in my family just to impress you or anyone.

Where did I ask you to? My point is that you think you’ve solved the problem but how could you because you haven’t even owned how fucking angry you are for one thing.


You seem to think by faking it at family gatherings and so on that you’ve got your sister on side but why would she concede to you as she holds the power.  You can be as nice as you like but it won’t work.


Zeeboe wrote:
I can call my sister a bitch because she's my sister, not yours. I have to deal with her, and you don't, so you have no reason to be calling her names. I was also angry when I called her that. Anyhow, I am starting to smell a troll when I speak to you, so I don't plan to take you too seriously, but I also am not going to let you define me.

Now we come down to it, Mr Passive-Aggressive starts to show his true colours - what you’ve written above is just childish bullshit and then to top it all you haul out the old, tired troll that has to come limping out of the swamp to back you up.


danatemporary wrote:
There's a good chance, you would not continue in these  quarrels. If you made it more about the intellect and less about how you feel, they would begrudgingly learn to accept what is. Because they'd have to. It might be where you need to process these emotions, independent of you family and not in their presence. You are allowing emotions to spill out all over the place, IMHO.


Because our feelings come first and our intellectual arguments come second to justify our emotions.  That's why if you don't acknowledge your feelings, in this case anger, the feelings control you.  What you've acknowledged you are in control of.


iwbiek wrote:
ok, just realized this asshole is probably a woman so i retract the hypothetical bit about rearranging faces, but everything else stands.


Apart from retracting the verbal abuse and threats of physical violence on a woman, exactly what is your argument?

 

Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
Tony de Mello


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GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:
From longstanding and repeated arguments with my brother and mother on contentious topics, I certainly understand where you're coming from, and I'd add that it's extremely difficult to maintain an entirely intellectual stance on things without bringing in emotion- sometimes family is just too close.
In my case it's not a religious thing we come to loggerheads about, more things like Astrology, homeopathy,acupuncture and every conspiracy theory you can think of and more - whenever we get together we seem to just drag each other down into these heated debates that none of us want, but can't help doing. There have been tears of frustration at times. In our quieter moments we tell each other how pointless it is, and we should all have our own opinions etc, but then there's another reference to how I should have some Homeopathy for my damaged back, and off we go again.


There’s always conflict between people that’s a given - what’s important is the way it’s resolved.


Quote:
Nowadays I just bite my lip, and say nothing. It takes all my willpower to do so, and it's very obvious what I'm doing, but I think it speaks louder than going off on one and achieving nothing.


You’ve decided to adopt a passive style with your family and that’s fair enough when it’s over unimportant issues. On the other hand if you’re dealing with people on a regular basis and you are silenced over issues that are important to you and particularly if there’s a bully involved - watch the corresponding resentment that’ll build up over time inside you if you don’t assert yourself.


Quote:
You sister is using unintentional emotional blackmail on you by making you feel awkward in front of your nieces.


It’s not unintentional at all, she’s doing it because she wants him to fall into line with her.


Quote:
It's not fair, but I think she genuinely believes that you have a duty to 'help' her kids believe in god. From her perspective, you have strayed and that's your choice, but you should be prepared to keep her kids on the 'right' path. It's messed up reasoning, but from her subjective viewpoint it's probably that that's how she thinks.


Surely that’s what ‘coming out’ is about, you acknowledge who you are to yourself and other people. Zeeboe’s sister is doing more than asking Zeeboe to ‘help her kids believe in god’, she’s bullying him, because she knows he feels uncomfortable lying in front of the children when she could have overlooked this.


Quote:
It's difficult to do much about - If I were in your situation I would consider that it is not my responsibility to be the voice of Atheism in front of her children - especially if they are very young. If she asked me what I'm thankful to Jesus for, I would reply that 'I am thankful that I have 'niece names' in my life' - you can be thankful and leave out the word Jesus...


It’s not about being the ‘voice of  Atheism’ that counts here – it’s about a bully wanting to have her own way. Until he acknowledges his own anger and looks at why that is - his sister will hold all the cards.  Only when he points out the consequences for both of them if she continues bullying him will she stop. In other words if it’s too painful for him to keep lying around her he may have to stay away. Then he’ll have to face the thing he’s been trying to avoid which is that he may lose some of his family.


Quote:
When they are older they will no doubt overhear your discussions on faith as family debates around the dinner table, and take what they want from these.. When they are ready to question, they will.


Depending on how old the children are isn’t it better for them to know the truth about their uncle’s views?

 

Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
Tony de Mello


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thelilith wrote: Apart from

thelilith wrote:

 


Apart from retracting the verbal abuse and threats of physical violence on a woman, exactly what is your argument?

 

i don't retract the "verbal abuse" at all.  you got less than you deserved.  as for the "threats," even were you a man they'd be hypothetical, since i'm unlikely to ever meet you, hence my use of the subjunctive.

my argument is you're being a cunt for the sake of it because it makes you feel superior.  all the things you accuse zeeboe of not acknowledging--his helplessness, etc.--he has acknowledged in his posts.  read them again.  as for his interactions with his sister, family relationships complicate such situations immeasurably, and every family dynamic is unique, so there is no standard you or anyone else can hold him to of the "correct" way to handle it. 

i personally think he did the right thing from what little i can judge of his personality and his history with his sister.  he clearly states he's made his feelings known to his sister over the years, yet she still insisted on pushing her religious agenda on him--in front of children he cares about no less, so he'd be unable to tell her to "fuck off" even if he wanted to.  then, when he tried in a very mature way to clarify his boundaries again--through text messages only because his sister was too cowardly to answer the phone--she decided to take another cheap shot and pull the insensitivity card, even though it was she who started the shit.

he was definitely the bigger person in this and even a fucktard can see that.  you can see it too, i'm sure, but you get your jollies lording it over people who have the balls to be vulnerable.  you and his sister should have lunch sometime and talk about ways to try making people feel like dogshit so you can soothe your own insecurities.  you could clearly use some help, since you failed where she succeeded.  

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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 You talk about

 

You talk about passive-aggression like it's a bad thing and something to be ashamed of.

 

 

I called my sister to express my anger. When I did not get an answer, I texted her, and the issue was solved. I have not expressed my views in years to my sister, and she probably just forgot, and I don't think my sister realized just how important it was to me, and was probably so selfish that she didn't think about my feelings.


You don't know my sister and I, nor do you know our history, so I'll tell you since you're curious -

 

 

 

I can admit when she was younger, she did bully me some, and always used the "you can't hit a girl" angle on me. I also saw her as selfish, a snob, and as someone who demanded the whole world kiss her ass, and acted offended when you didn't. She thought I was just jealous of her, and I can admit I was a time, but I was more hurt by the fact that we were close once, and she picked her friends over me, and then provoked me on purpose, and made it all about her, and knew how to lie to people, and would act all innocent when I called her out on her nonsense, and my father always took her side.

 

 

My sister even got her fucking boyfriend when she was a teen to enforce her way of thinking, and he bullied me too, and you can stand up for yourself all you like, but when a guy older and stronger then you is hurting you, it makes no difference whether you act tough or not, the bully will just laugh, and fuck you up more. And they dare acted like I was the asshole if I stood up for myself, or told my parents on them. I hated her also for bringing such a cowardly monster into our family. My sister could do so much better. I knew he'd break her heart one day, and he did, and I felt very little pity for her. When you play with bees, you get stung at one point. She ended up marrying a much better guy, and we get along fine.

 

 

So yeah, my sister starting nonsense with me, and then acting innocent when I react properly, and making it seem like I am the prick for having gumption is not the first time she has done this, but it has been years in her defense.


Hell, even that bully boyfriend I mentioned once or twice stood up for me when he saw that she was clearly pushing my buttons and fucking with me,

 

 

I think she probably takes after my father, and probably just enjoys power, and like some older siblings - Saw me as a threat, and because she never got in big trouble for fucking with me, she kept that mindset.

 


Today, I think she just really gets into the Jesus thing, and dislikes me for being an Atheist for any other reason why a Christian would dislike it, and because she thinks she has power over me with her kids, she thinks she can score points against me.

 

 

I can admit, sometimes I hate with my sister with a passion, but hate will get you nowhere in life. It's a very ugly thing with lots of sharp teeth and will eat your whole heart, and leave no room left for love. But I stood up for myself PLENTY of times against her, but I was always the bad guy when I did, and *I* got into trouble. My father always loved her more then me. The whole family did.

 


 

.....So can you get why I can't lose my temper? I did as a kid, and my sister enjoyed that, and only bad things happened to me, and everyone hated me for it. I learned. Today, I have to be firm, but fair when standing up to anyone because the whole "get red in the face" thing and start yelling and cursing and asking people to step outside so you can fight doesn't work with me.

 


Like I said - I never asked to be born a man, nor did I ask to be born in my family - I am only trying to survive all of it, and *I* have to do what *I* have learned is the best thing to do. This whole "getting pissed" off thing to prove I am a "real man" didn't work in the 90's, and it won't work now.


 

I have cut my sister off before too, and it wasn't until she had kids that we became close again. I also refused to go to family events, and she knew why too. Hell, when MySpace was hot, I use to blog all the time about my feelings and today, my whole family sometimes goes out of their way to be extra nice to me. I think some of them never knew how I really felt, but today, I will gladly tell them, and they understand me better.

 

 

My nieces love me, and they are the only reason why I enjoy family events. And this is not a case of where my nieces like just anyone. They especially love me. At Christmas time, my sister told me they asked more about when I was coming then Santa Claus. Smiling The love comes from the fact that I essentially and gladly babysit them when I am over and take over all work, and I gladly do it, and I make the kids laugh, and play with them non-stop, and I love every second of it, and I think my nieces can sense that. i.e. That this is not work for me, but real fun.

 


So guess what? *I* have power too. My sister loves her daughters, and if she truly loves them, she will desire to see them happy, and she knows when I am there, they are happy. So she kinda has to respect what I believe too, and she knows I could cut her off if I don't.


 


AND AGAIN - My sister, like me, enjoys peace, because growing up, there was always tension with our parents, and I think she whether us all get along.


 


Finally, she is a Christian. She knows she's suppose to "turn the other cheek" and "forgive me", and shower me with love. I think she just forgot that the night I was over, but believe me, if she is talking about me to her Christian buddies at church like I am talking to you guys, those Christians are going to tell her to show me love and care because that's how they operate.


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 You talk about

EDIT - Double post.


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iwbiek wrote:i don't retract

iwbiek wrote:
i don't retract the "verbal abuse" at all.  you got less than you deserved.  as for the "threats," even were you a man they'd be hypothetical, since i'm unlikely to ever meet you, hence my use of the subjunctive.
my argument is you're being a cunt for the sake of it because it makes you feel superior.  all the things you accuse zeeboe of not acknowledging--his helplessness, etc.--he has acknowledged in his posts.  read them again.


Okay, we’ll read Zeeboe’s communication with his sister, first the one to her face.  Here it is again.

Zeeboe wrote:
"Hi. Ya know I love ya, and my nieces, which is why I need to be honest. I have a request - Please don't openly ask me to speak to Jesus in front of them again.  It makes me uncomfortable. And I just would like to be around you ladies without having that fear that I am going to be asked to pray. You know I am not a believer, but I promise to always respect your beliefs, but I need you to please respect mine. Love you."
 
She JUST texted me back -
 
"I will, but please also respect my and the girls faith and not mock our beliefs.  love you."
 
My response -
 
"Let's just not talk directly about it to each other in front of them. Deal? 
 
"Deal.  "
 
"We are both epic diplomats! Our parents could learn from us. lol. See ya tomorrow. Night'."

Yep, got  that  and now we get the one below, the version he brings here in his post.

Zeeboe wrote:
AHHHHH!!!!! I mean, WTF man? SHE brought this whole nonsense up! She's telling me not to mock her fairy tale, but guess what? I wouldn't MOCK your fucking fairy tale if YOU did not dump Jesus on my lap!!!!
 
GRRRRRR!!!!
 
lol. Okay, well, clearly I couldn't text her THAT.....or shit would have hit the fan.
 
 
I'm glad the nonsense is over. At least I hope it is. I can sense she is a bit offended, but I hope she let's this shit go. AGAIN - She started all this, so she has no reason to even be pissed. *I* should be pissed.

Note the difference in the communication style - passive or dishonest about how angry he feels with his sister to her face and then aggressive behind her back in his post on here. It’s called being passive-aggressive or manipulative. 

iwbiek wrote:
as for his interactions with his sister, family relationships complicate such situations immeasurably, and every family dynamic is unique, so there is no standard you or anyone else can hold him to of the "correct" way to handle it.


That’s true. 

iwbiek wrote:
i personally think he did the right thing from what little i can judge of his personality and his history with his sister.  he clearly states he's made his feelings known to his sister over the years..


No, he hasn’t made all his feelings clear at all in fact he’s been dishonest because he’s trying to keep the peace by pretending that he doesn’t feel angry when she bullies him.


iwbiek wrote:
yet she still insisted on pushing her religious agenda on him--in front of children he cares about no less, so he'd be unable to tell her to "fuck off" even if he wanted to.


No, but he does need to point out to her what the consequences of her behaviour will be if she keeps bullying him.  Because if she forces him to keep lying about his atheist views when she knows full well it makes him uncomfortable it will very likely lead to a split anyway.  This is what he hasn’t done yet.


iwbiek wrote:
then, when he tried in a very mature way to clarify his boundaries again--through text messages only because his sister was too cowardly to answer the phone--she decided to take another cheap shot and pull the insensitivity card, even though it was she who started the shit.


Yes, she did but that’s who she is.  What Zeeboe will have to decide for himself one way or another is that if his sister is really the unpleasant bully he says she is whether he wants to continue seeing her.


iwbiek wrote:
he was definitely the bigger person in this and even a fucktard can see that.  you can see it too, i'm sure, but you get your jollies lording it over people who have the balls to be vulnerable.


No, he wasn’t just being vulnerable he was being angry on here about his ‘BITCH’ of a sister and expecting everyone to support him.  My argument is that he should learn to be assertive with the individual who he has the problem with in the first place.

 

iwbiek wrote:
you and his sister should have lunch sometime and talk about ways to try making people feel like dogshit so you can soothe your own insecurities.  you could clearly use some help, since you failed where she succeeded.
 


Yeah, after your threats of physical violence you’ve clearly got the moral high ground.
 

Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
Tony de Mello


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thelilith wrote:Yeah, after

thelilith wrote:


Yeah, after your threats of physical violence you’ve clearly got the moral high ground.
 

you're goddamn right i do.  the ONLY thing that made me retract those words was that i figured out you're a woman.  were you a man, i wouldn't budge an inch on those.  sometimes beating the shit out of a person is the only way to teach them any kind of valuable lesson, and i only hope some woman services you thoroughly in that department one of these days, because i suspect you're the kind of person who could benefit from it, and not much else.  you're a know-it-all piece of shit who reads ONE story a guy decides to tell from decades of family history and think you have the right to tell him precisely what all his issues are, and that he's clearly in the wrong because of them.  all zeeboe wanted was a sympathetic ear, and if you're not prepared to give that to him, fine, but that doesn't mean you have to open your self-satisfied mouth.

do the world a favor and fucking die of aids.  we have enough self-righteous dicks, thanks.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Meh, you all are sexist. I

Meh, you all are sexist. I smacked my sisters head into a post when she crossed the line. She smacked my hand with a red hot fire poker once when I did. We get on fine today.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Zeeboe wrote:You talk about

Zeeboe wrote:
You talk about passive-aggression like it's a bad thing and something to be ashamed of.


You know why - because other people don’t know where they are with you unless you speak to them about how you feel.  Even when you feel angry it’s better to be upfront and explain why they’ve hurt you or made you angry.


Quote:
I called my sister to express my anger. When I did not get an answer, I texted her, and the issue was solved. I have not expressed my views in years to my sister, and she probably just forgot, and I don't think my sister realized just how important it was to me, and was probably so selfish that she didn't think about my feelings.


Yes, I see what you’re saying but you didn’t explain how much you hate being bullied by her.

Quote:
You don't know my sister and I, nor do you know our history, so I'll tell you since you're curious -I can admit when she was younger, she did bully me some, and always used the "you can't hit a girl" angle on me. I also saw her as selfish, a snob, and as someone who demanded the whole world kiss her ass, and acted offended when you didn't. She thought I was just jealous of her, and I can admit I was a time, but I was more hurt by the fact that we were close once, and she picked her friends over me, and then provoked me on purpose, and made it all about her, and knew how to lie to people, and would act all innocent when I called her out on her nonsense, and my father always took her side.


Yes, so your sister clearly has always bullied you.


Quote:
My sister even got her fucking boyfriend when she was a teen to enforce her way of thinking, and he bullied me too, and you can stand up for yourself all you like, but when a guy older and stronger then you is hurting you, it makes no difference whether you act tough or not, the bully will just laugh, and fuck you up more. And they dare acted like I was the asshole if I stood up for myself, or told my parents on them. I hated her also for bringing such a cowardly monster into our family. My sister could do so much better. I knew he'd break her heart one day, and he did, and I felt very little pity for her. When you play with bees, you get stung at one point. She ended up marrying a much better guy, and we get along fine.


Luckily she’s married to someone you like now. 


Quote:
So yeah, my sister starting nonsense with me, and then acting innocent when I react properly, and making it seem like I am the prick for having gumption is not the first time she has done this, but it has been years in her defense.
Hell, even that bully boyfriend I mentioned once or twice stood up for me when he saw that she was clearly pushing my buttons and fucking with me.


Yes, so she’s started bullying you again even though she stopped for while. 

 

Quote:
I think she probably takes after my father, and probably just enjoys power, and like some older siblings - Saw me as a threat, and because she never got in big trouble for fucking with me, she kept that mindset.


Yes, she got away with it in the past and she’s still getting away with it now.

Quote:
Today, I think she just really gets into the Jesus thing, and dislikes me for being an Atheist for any other reason why a Christian would dislike it, and because she thinks she has power over me with her kids, she thinks she can score points against me.


Yep, she tries to keep you in line with the Atheist thing by  using her kids as weapons.


Quote:
I can admit, sometimes I hate with my sister with a passion, but hate will get you nowhere in life. It's a very ugly thing with lots of sharp teeth and will eat your whole heart, and leave no room left for love. But I stood up for myself PLENTY of times against her, but I was always the bad guy when I did, and *I* got into trouble. My father always loved her more then me. The whole family did


I can see why you hate your sister sometimes too - you have good reason.

 

Quote:
.....So can you get why I can't lose my temper? I did as a kid, and my sister enjoyed that, and only bad things happened to me, and everyone hated me for it. I learned. Today, I have to be firm, but fair when standing up to anyone because the whole "get red in the face" thing and start yelling and cursing and asking people to step outside so you can fight doesn't work with me.


I do see what you’re saying - but funnily enough you get to keep your temper better by admitting you actually are angry and then speaking to the person in question and being honest with them about how you feel. 

Quote:
Like I said - I never asked to be born a man, nor did I ask to be born in my family - I am only trying to survive all of it, and *I* have to do what *I* have learned is the best thing to do. This whole "getting pissed" off thing to prove I am a "real man" didn't work in the 90's, and it won't work now.


No, being aggressive doesn’t  work – especially physical violence, you’ve come a long way.
 

Quote:
I have cut my sister off before too, and it wasn't until she had kids that we became close again. I also refused to go to family events, and she knew why too. Hell, when MySpace was hot, I use to blog all the time about my feelings and today, my whole family sometimes goes out of their way to be extra nice to me. I think some of them never knew how I really felt, but today, I will gladly tell them, and they understand me better.

I’m glad you’ve got to the point that you can actually be honest with your family about how you feel.  But, is that only your positive feelings can you tell them when you feel bad?

  

Quote:
My nieces love me, and they are the only reason why I enjoy family events. And this is not a case of where my nieces like just anyone. They especially love me. At Christmas time, my sister told me they asked more about when I was coming then Santa Claus.  The love comes from the fact that I essentially and gladly babysit them when I am over and take over all work, and I gladly do it, and I make the kids laugh, and play with them non-stop, and I love every second of it, and I think my nieces can sense that. i.e. That this is not work for me, but real fun.


Zeeboe, I can really see how much you love your nieces and that for you it’s fun to be with them. 

Quote:
So guess what? *I* have power too. My sister loves her daughters, and if she truly loves them, she will desire to see them happy, and she knows when I am there, they are happy. So she kinda has to respect what I believe too, and she knows I could cut her off if I don't.


Yep, you do have some power.

Quote:
AND AGAIN - My sister, like me, enjoys peace, because growing up, there was always tension with our parents, and I think she whether us all get along.


Remember, though that if she bullies you and you get angry it’s much better if you speak to her about it first.  If you don’t your feelings will build up and are then far more likely to come out in an angry outburst. 


 If you learn to talk about your negative feelings as well as your positive ones you’ll find you have much more control over the way you deal with her.  Good luck!
 

 

 

Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
Tony de Mello


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thelilith wrote:What’s

thelilith wrote:

What’s the point of blaming you have to look at what is and Zeeboe’s sister holds all the power - if he doesn’t conform to what she wants him to do she uses the children as weapons to get him to toe the line.

That's not what the op said. He said it ended with him telling his sister not to discuss it with him anymore and she agreed. That's what he should have done from the beginning. If she were the type of lunatic who says "Stay away from my kids unless you like Jesus." then he would have a different problem but even then she'd have no power over him.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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My sister has not always

My sister has not always bullied me, and I honestly think you're just trying to push my buttons, and provoke me, and drag me down like you are a troll, and probably hoping I will go and start a fight with my sister just to prove myself. My sister and I had plenty of battles years ago, and believe me, if her husband fucked with me, I would deal with it. Yeah, I was angry the night this all happened, and so was my sister, but if I called her names and pointed out that she started it, it only would have made things worst. My point was made clear. If something else happens, I will deal with it. But this is the first time this has happened in years, but she knows now that I will speak my mind. That's all that matters. What is so terrible about peace to you?

If my sister made threats to cut me off, I would call her bluff, and believe me, she would fold because she has before. 

I know how trolls think - Point out your victim's fears and concerns and try to make them believe it is happening. That is one of many methods trolls use and that is all you are doing hoping to piss me off. 

 

 

Being a pussy is not a good thing, but neither is being a bully, and that is what you are trying to provoke me into being. People like you should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

 

 


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Hey iwbiek, you're a fucking hard man

Hey iwbiek, you’re a fucking hard man aren’t you? Who the fuck do you think you are you stupid fuckwit, coming on this site and insulting a woman and threatening her with physical violence? You foul mouthed little cunt, you obviously can’t read because this site is called the rational response squad, not the fuckwitted idiots squad. So get off this site, you pathetic little moron and don’t ever come back.

If there’s one thing that I hate more than a fucking bully, it’s a fucking loud-mouthed bullying cunt like you who thinks he can shut women up with abuse and threats of violence. Now why don’t you start threatening me, hard man eh? Come on, let’s hear what you and your fucking Czech monkey wrench have got to say?
 

I quote no 'authorities'. I speak in my own words. I bring everything to the bar of my own judgment.


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Mr C O Jones wrote:Hey

Mr C O Jones wrote:

Hey iwbiek, you’re a fucking hard man aren’t you? Who the fuck do you think you are you stupid fuckwit, coming on this site and insulting a woman and threatening her with physical violence? You foul mouthed little cunt, you obviously can’t read because this site is called the rational response squad, not the fuckwitted idiots squad. So get off this site, you pathetic little moron and don’t ever come back.

If there’s one thing that I hate more than a fucking bully, it’s a fucking loud-mouthed bullying cunt like you who thinks he can shut women up with abuse and threats of violence. Now why don’t you start threatening me, hard man eh? Come on, let’s hear what you and your fucking Czech monkey wrench have got to say?
 

look, asshole, i've already explained at least twice i didn't know she was a woman when i made that remark , so obviously you're willfully ignoring it so you have a good excuse to run your mouth.  i'm sorry, but in the virtual world tits and lack of facial hair are not immediately apparent.  one of our members caused a big controversy with her gender identity for something like 2 years.

as for your telling me to get the fuck out and never come back, i've been around a lot longer than you, shit-for-brains, and everyone here knows i don't go off on people unless i feel i have a reason.  anyone who reads this thread with an ounce of objectivity, even a fatheaded maggot like you, knows that lilith came here running her bullshit uninvited and that zeeboe doesn't seem to appreciate it.  neither did i, and i don't believe her sex gives her carte blanche to talk to people however she wants, and i will goddamn well react to that anyway i see fit, you dogfucker, and you goddamn well like or not, but piss off with your bullshit.  if you wanna play mr. longdick tarzan rescuing the damsel in distress, that's fine, but don't expect me to take your smegma seriously.

and my fucking czechoslovak monkey wrench can't talk, asswipe, so it has nothing to say.  i've said my piece.  go fuck your mother.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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                Lots

                Lots of testosterone around here...  


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lol. *facepalm* Women have

lol. *facepalm* Women have it made. They can say and do *anything*, and get away with it all cause they are ladies, and they will always have "heroes" there to "defend their honor" (Trying to score some tang.)

 

Anyhow, the whole purpose of this thread was to find out if I did the right thing, and everyone (but the parasite troll) seems to agree that I did, so Mods - Please close this thread before it gets worst with the insults. Perhaps misery is how some people prefer to live because they are insecure, and need to prove to everyone how bad-ass they are, but some of the more saner people don't need to prove anything, myself being one of them.


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Zeeboe

Zeeboe wrote:

lol. *facepalm* Women have it made. They can say and do *anything*, and get away with it all cause they are ladies, and they will always have "heroes" there to "defend their honor" (Trying to score some tang.)

 

Anyhow, the whole purpose of this thread was to find out if I did the right thing, and everyone (but the parasite troll) seems to agree that I did, so Mods - Please close this thread before it gets worst with the insults. Perhaps misery is how some people prefer to live because they are insecure, and need to prove to everyone how bad-ass they are, but some of the more saner people don't need to prove anything, myself being one of them.

yeah, i second this, and i'd like to apologize to you, Zeeboe, for contributing to the mess.  i grew up with a bullying stepfather who frequently explained why everybody else was in the wrong except him and it was in fact he who was being victimized, so i have a raw nerve for such things.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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No need to be sorry man. I

No need to be sorry man. I am glad you sided with me, and I'm sorry for what you had to go through. I hope I did not make this into something bigger then what it was. I believe I was bullied by her as a child and teen, but I am not the only younger sibling to have been bullied by their older sibling. As far as what happened recently - We had a disagreement, and we settled it like adults. I still love her and her kids. I lost my temper that night we bumped heads, but instead of taking it out on her, and doing something stupid, I let my rage out here hoping my fellow Atheists could understand.


I then confronted her as I was typing my first post here, and was more calm as I did it, and it worked. I love my sister, and don't mean to insult her. I just wish she loved me as much as I loved her, and not picked her social life over me when we were teens, but that happens with siblings. Especially at that age. I also admit that I wish I could have been as smart and good looking as she was, but I'm not going to spend my life being some jealous, hateful, and bitter human being. I already did that once, and it sucks, and it doesn't change anything. As soon as I let my bitterness go, I lost weight, got a few girlfriends, got a job, moved out of my parents house, and have been doing great with life since.  

 

thelilith - My sister doesn't bully me anymore. I wouldn't let her. Hell, I didn't let her in our youth either. I just felt there was very little justice for me from our parents when she did, and then later when her piece of shit psycho boyfriend fucked with me, and THAT is why I am bitter. Back then, I was just a kid and teen, and didn't know how to handle stuff. Now I do.

 

We get along fine now. People have disagreements sometimes. She also loves her kids more then I do, and her kids love me as much as I love them, and she is not going to desire to see her children unhappy, and they are going to be the ones who have to suffer if she and I have issues and cannot solve it. I did not ask her to stop being Christian. I asked her not to try to force me into being one, and that asking me to talk to Jesus makes me uncomfortable, and she clearly agreed to not only not ever ask me to speak to Jesus, but that we should not talk about that stuff directly to each other in front of the kids, and that was it.

 

Telling me I should allow my anger to get the better of me, and express all my honest thoughts to my loved ones when I am angry and that I am a puss for taking the higher road is *not* good advice, and will only land me in prison. I was angry the night I said all that other stuff, but my more sane side kept me under control, thank goodness, and I cooled down. I went off on here because yes, I needed to vent, and as soon as I did, I was calm. So you are seeing all this incorrectly.

 

Having typed that - I'm not going to make threats to my sister, or call her names because I prefer peace over war. It's not that I can't handle war, I just like peace more. You can let your feelings be known to someone without acting like a criminal. I told her asking me to pray made me uncomfortable, and it did. It made me angry too, but anger and not being comfortable can be consider the same thing. i.e. I'm uncomfortable because I'm angry.

 

By the way - I see you as a troll because you do not know the full details of what is going on, and are acting like you do, and are showing just a little bit too much "passion" for this topic, and are putting words into my mouth, and then you try to cover up your rudeness by appearing to be kind sometimes.

I mean, what are you trying to convince me of? Are you trying to "help" me? Well, "tough love" doesn't help me. It never has. Tough love is also not needed in this case because I told her how I was feeling, and did not just bottle it up. I will also admit to you that if you were trying to piss me off, you did. I think you can sense I am insecure, and are trying to cash in on that by pushing my buttons.


You also took all the things I said (i.e. the fears I expressed) and are trying to convince me that those fears are happening when they clearly are not, and you are using my concerns as ammo, and are trying to get inside my head, and piss me off, and make me feel worthless, and you may also probably be enjoying the fact that you have caused another fight on here. I don't know.

 

Me admitting to being a victim in my youth is not easy. I don't need you rubbing my face into it. If you really care about me, then lifting me up would be better. Making me think I am still a victim doesn't help. Instead telling me I handled everything like a mature adult with class is what I need to read. I don't need you pushing my buttons, trying to get me to call my sister and start another fight so I can prove to myself that I have gumption. I can't help but think that is what you were trying to do, and then you could read my report of it on here, and laugh, and pat yourself on the back for getting into some insecure guy's head and tricking  into causing problems with his family.


I read your introduction thread, and doesn't the fact that people have called you a troll before suggests to you that perhaps you should express yourself better? I'm not trying to tell you how to type. I'm just suggesting that perhaps if you changed your style of typing perhaps less people would see you as a troublemaker.


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Zeeboe wrote:so Mods -

Zeeboe wrote:

so Mods - Please close this thread before it gets worst with the insults.

done.

- Brian Sapient


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