Why is America falling apart?

amp1022
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Why is America falling apart?

Seems to me that this nation started out with prayer and Biblical values, prospered more than just about any other nation in history, then took all the credit, gave up the values, and suddenly went into a rapid decline. I don't mean this to be a debate about whether this country was founded on Christian values, its so obvious its not worth debating. I am just wonder how you feel about your obvious inability to maintain America's success without God's blessings.


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amp1022 wrote:Seems to me

amp1022 wrote:

Seems to me that this nation started out with prayer and Biblical values, prospered more than just about any other nation in history, then took all the credit, gave up the values, and suddenly went into a rapid decline. I don't mean this to be a debate about whether this country was founded on Christian values, its so obvious its not worth debating. I am just wonder how you feel about your obvious inability to maintain America's success without God's blessings.

The country was NOT founded on Christian values as a whole ton of letters and quotes from the forefathers will prove within a google click away.

Funny, how our other Western neighbors which are largely secularly governed seem to have lower crime rates and are known for being quite hospitable.

This nation started out to get out from under monarchy and theocracy. Read your history.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


amp1022
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These aren't the quotes of

These aren't the quotes of Christian men?

 

Christian Quotes of the Founding Fathers

Founding Fathers - Quotes on Christianity, Faith, Jesus and the Bible

By , About.com Guide

 

George Washington
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."

[/quote wrote:

 

The Pilgrims were a specific group of Calvinist Christians. After King Henry VIII separated the Church of England from the rest of the Catholic Church, many English subjects were dissatisfied with the king acting as the highest church authority. Encouraged by the Protestant Reformation in Germany, Holland, and Switzerland, these dissatisfied subjects separated from the Church of England in favor of a type of Christianity without a church hierarchy with the Bible as the only authority. Without a hierarchy, many different interpretations of the Christian faith were practiced by various separatist groups. As a whole, these groups can also be called puritans. One group, originally called the Leiden Congregation (because they left England and lived in Leiden, Holland for several years), believed that they could not successfully live with their beliefs among the English (and the English authorities also pressured the government of Holland to remove them). This group set out to live as a congregation in America. They became known as the Pilgrims because they saw themselves as settlers in a promised land with a promised future.
The Pilgrim Church no longer exists as a single entity. They were a type of Calvinists and puritans. Their religion is similar to today's Baptists, Congregationalists, and Methodists, but none of these religions is identical to the Pilgrims' religion. There are some smaller congregational religions that are closer in many ways to the religion of the Pilgrims, like a current church called The Christian Church and another called the Church of God, but these are not major denominations and have memberships of only a couple thousand.


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_religion_were_the_pilgrims#ixzz25hbNXUwp 

Seems to use the words church and faith and Christianity a lot for people who were just looking for a new form of government...

Can you honestly tell me that the declaration of independence does not say "all men are created equal and endowed by the creator with certain inalienable right"?

What does it say on the dollar bill? "In God we trust" That sounds pretty Christian to me.

 

 


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In God We Trust

In God We Trust did not appear on the dollar bill until the middle of the twentieth century.

How about these quotes :

Thomas Jefferson
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."

 

Jefferson again
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on
man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the
first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus."

More Jefferson
"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for
enslaving mankind and adulturated by artificial constructions into a
contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ."

John Adams
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines
and Oaths, and whole cartloads of other trumpery that we find religion
encumbered with in these days?"

Also Adams
"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian religion."

Here's Thomas Paine
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
that book (the Bible)."

"Among the most detesable villains in history, you could not find one worse
than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to
massacre the mothers, and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not
dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book
(the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Diest to vindicate the moral justice of God
against the evils of the Bible."

"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and
you will have sins in abundance."

And; "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in
pretend imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."

Finally let's hear from James Madison
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on
civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of
political tyrrany. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of
the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty
have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

References The writings of Thomas Jefferson exist in 25 volumes.
The references for this article were found in the book, SIX HISTORIC
AMERICANS, by John E. Remsburg (who interviewed many of Lincoln's
associates). Much of his work on Jefferson came from THE MEMOIRS,
CORRESPONDENCE AND MISCELLANIES FROM THE PAPERS OF THOMAS JEFFERSON, 4
volumes ed. by Thomas Jefferson Randolph (the grandson of Thomas Jefferson).

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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 whether or not the

 whether or not the founding fathers were Christian, they were clever enough to leave god out of the declaration of independence..  Why would they do that if they wanted to found the country with christian values? 

 Should a british guy really have to teach an american about your country's history? Educate yourself before you make yourself look more of a fool. 

 


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The reason America is dying:

The reason America is dying: lack of education.

It is not religions fault, though some specific groups of some specific religions are contributing to the problem.

But the fact is that the America of 1950 was far more religious than the America of today, yet it was also far more prosperous.

The real problem is that education standards have slipped. A grade that would have seen you fail a course previously will now be sufficient to graduate with.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Classes are too big, teachers are less knowledgeable of the subjects they are teaching, physical education is almost dead, social technology is interfering with school, subjects are dumbed down, at home schooling by unqualified parents is increasing, and there are a ridiculous number of courses in highschool and up which have no practical value at all; just to name a few more problems.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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When in the Course of human

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

the first two sentences mention God 3 times. They even go so far as to say that it is God that endows us with our rights as human beings, seriously why would you even say that without looking at the document first? you would only have needed to read the first two lines.


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What county does have

What country does have biblical values? Isn't the US among the most religious nations in the industrialized world if not the most religious?

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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amp1022 wrote:When in the

amp1022 wrote:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

the first two sentences mention God 3 times. They even go so far as to say that it is God that endows us with our rights as human beings, seriously why would you even say that without looking at the document first? you would only have needed to read the first two lines.

 Apologies - I mistyped - I meant a Christian God - this thread is talking about the US being based on Christian values..

 It mentions "Nature's God", a creator, and divine providence. In the context of the time this is very much a deist viewpoint, specifically making no mention of religion, let alone specific christian values.

In addition, there really is no mention of God in the Constitution, which is the document defining your country's laws. Why is that, if it's based on Christian values?


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harleysportster wrote:In God

harleysportster wrote:

In God We Trust did not appear on the dollar bill until the middle of the twentieth century.

 True, but that's only one of a hundred examples I could give you of our government promoting God. By the way, "In God we trust" was not just put on money, it was adopted as our nations official motto.

 

The Liberty Window
At its initial meeting in September 1774 Congress invited the Reverend Jacob Duché (1738-1798), rector of Christ Church, Philadelphia, to open its sessions with prayer. Duché ministered to Congress in an unofficial capacity until he was elected the body's first chaplain on July 9, 1776.

(granted this guy ended up being a traitor but its the fact that congress opened its first session with prayer...to God!)

 

Proposed Seal for the United States
On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea (left). Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it (right). Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20. Although not accepted these drafts reveal the religious temper of the Revolutionary period. Franklin and Jefferson were among the most theologically liberal of the Founders, yet they used biblical imagery for this important task.

 

Morality in the Army
Congress was apprehensive about the moral condition of the American army and navy and took steps to see that Christian morality prevailed in both organizations. In the Articles of War, seen below, governing the conduct of the Continental Army (seen above) (adopted, June 30, 1775; revised, September 20, 1776), Congress devoted three of the four articles in the first section to the religious nurture of the troops. Article 2 "earnestly recommended to all officers and soldiers to attend divine services." Punishment was prescribed for those who behaved "indecently or irreverently" in churches, including courts-martial, fines and imprisonments. Chaplains who deserted their troops were to be court-martialed.

Being in the Army currently I can tell you that my platoon is regularly offered time off from the work day to attend "prayer lunch" or "prayer breakfast"

 

Aitken's Bible Endorsed by Congress
The war with Britain cut off the supply of Bibles to the United States with the result that on Sept. 11, 1777, Congress instructed its Committee of Commerce to import 20,000 Bibles from "Scotland, Holland or elsewhere." On January 21, 1781, Philadelphia printer Robert Aitken (1734-1802) petitioned Congress to officially sanction a publication of the Old and New Testament which he was preparing at his own expense. Congress "highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion . . . in this country, and . . . they recommend this edition of the bible to the inhabitants of the United States." This resolution was a result of Aitken's successful accomplishment of his project.

Importing 20,000 bibles into your country is what? completely secular?

 

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html    There are about 20 more examples on that site.

 

THE MAYFLOWER COMPACT

In the name of God, Amen. We whose names are under-written, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony, unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunder subscribed our names at Cape Cod, the eleventh of November [New Style, November 21], in the year of the reign of our sovereign lord, King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Dom. 1620.

 

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

You notice a few word that are not used in the 1st amendment? Seperation, church, state, not even mention once. This amendment clearly has the specific purpose of keeping the government from infringing on others religious practices. How would a Christian prayer in a federal meeting stop anyone else from praying to their own God, or declining to pray altogether?

 


Washington Praying

This is a question often asked today, and it arises from the efforts of those who seek to impeach Washington's character by portraying him as irreligious. Interestingly, Washington's own contemporaries did not question his Christianity but were thoroughly convinced of his devout faith--a fact made evident in the first-ever compilation of the The Writings of George Washington, published in the 1830s.

That compilation of Washington's writings was prepared and published by Jared Sparks (1789-1866), a noted writer and historian. Sparks' Herculean historical productions included not only the writing of George Washington (12 volumes) but also Benjamin Franklin (10 volumes) and Constitution signer Gouverneur Morris (3 volumes). Additionally, Sparks compiled the Library of American Biography (25 volumes), The Diplomatic Correspondence of the American Revolution (12 volumes), and the Correspondence of the American Revolution (4 volumes). In all, Sparks was responsible for some 100 historical volumes. Additionally, Sparks was America's first professor of history--other than ecclesiastical history--to teach at the college level in the United States, and he was later chosen president of Harvard.

 

 

Jared Sparks' decision to compile George Washington's works is described by The Dictionary of American Biography. It details that Sparks began…

 

…what was destined to be his greatest life work, the publication of the writings of George Washington. ... In January 1827, Sparks found himself alone at Mount Vernon with the manuscripts. An examination of them extending over three months showed that years would be required for the undertaking; and with the owner's consent, Sparks carried off the entire collection, eight large boxes, picking up on the way to Boston a box of diplomatic correspondence from the Department of State, and the [General Horatio] Gates manuscripts from the New York Historical Society. Not content with these, he searched or caused to be searched public and private archives for material, questioned survivors of the Revolution, visited and mapped historic sites. In 1830, for instance, he followed [Benedict] Arnold's [1775] route to Quebec. The first of the twelve volumes of The Writings of George Washington to be published (vol. II) appeared in 1834 and the last (vol. I, containing the biography) in 1837.

In Volume XII of these writings, Jared Sparks delved into the religious character of George Washington, and included numerous letters written by the friends, associates, and family of Washington which testified of his religious character. Based on that extensive evidence, Sparks concluded:

To say that he [George Washington] was not a Christian would be to impeach his sincerity and honesty. Of all men in the world, Washington was certainly the last whom any one would charge with dissimulation or indirectness [hypocrisies and evasiveness]; and if he was so scrupulous in avoiding even a shadow of these faults in every known act of his life, [regardless of] however unimportant, is it likely, is it credible, that in a matter of the highest and most serious importance [his religious faith, that] he should practice through a long series of years a deliberate deception upon his friends and the public? It is neither credible nor possible.

Our first president was Christian. I could go on all day.


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 Oh, by the title I thought

 Oh, by the title I thought you might want to have a serious discussion about our country's problems, silly me. I'm sure if the 5% of us in the country that are atheist all converted to Christianity that suddenly everything would be dandy...

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: Oh, by

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Oh, by the title I thought you might want to have a serious discussion about our country's problems, silly me. I'm sure if the 5% of us in the country that are atheist all converted to Christianity that suddenly everything would be dandy...

Yeah, then we could live in a paradise like Iran. A good example of a religious nation.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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How about these sources ?

How about these sources :

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular

A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T. Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less-- of Americans in 1800 were members of congregations."

(Feel free to read on if you wish)

http://nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

The Declaration of Independence

Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. The reason appears obvious: the Declaration mentions God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its absence of God.)

However, the Declaration of Independence does not represent any law of the United States. It came before the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution). The Declaration aimed at announcing the separation of America from Great Britain and it listed the various grievances with them. The Declaration includes the words, "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold today, and we have more than thirteen states.

Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets and believers, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. It represents a historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our government. (Walker, Second Paragraph)

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

Fundamentalist Christians are currently working overtime to convince the American public that the founding fathers intended to establish this country on "biblical principles," but history simply does not support their view. The men mentioned above and others who were instrumental in the founding of our nation were in no sense Bible-believing Christians. Thomas Jefferson, in fact, was fiercely anti-cleric. In a letter to Horatio Spafford in 1814, Jefferson said, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes" (George Seldes, The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey Citadel Press, 1983, p. 371)

Would you like for me to continue ? Or shall you keep using something as faulty as Wiki for your sources to counter ?

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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And of course

And of course, we can always look at this :

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-07-04/opinion/davis.jefferson.other.words_1_church-and-state-religious-freedom-virginia-statute?_s=PM:OPINION

Why U.S. is not a Christian nation

by Kenneth C. Davis

As America celebrates its birthday on July 4, the timeless words of Thomas Jefferson will surely be invoked to remind us of our founding ideals -- that "All men are created equal" and are "endowed by their Creator" with the right to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These phrases, a cherished part of our history, have rightly been called "American Scripture."

But Jefferson penned another phrase, arguably his most famous after those from the Declaration of Independence. These far more contentious words -- "a wall of separation between church and state" -- lie at the heart of the ongoing debate between those who see America as a "Christian Nation" and those who see it as a secular republic, a debate that is hotter than a Washington Fourth of July.

(Read the rest if you so choose).

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:Beyond

harleysportster wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Oh, by the title I thought you might want to have a serious discussion about our country's problems, silly me. I'm sure if the 5% of us in the country that are atheist all converted to Christianity that suddenly everything would be dandy...

Yeah, then we could live in a paradise like Iran. A good example of a religious nation.

Yeah, and then we wouldn't have to tolerate any of those sinful advertisements with women showing skin. Then we could eliminate all those sinful sitcoms and put on great quality tv shows like "American Bible Challenge" and "The 700 Club", maybe if we are feeling a little scandalous we could allow the networks to air some "I Love Lucy" reruns. We could eliminate that devil rock music and put on some Switchfoot, Casting Crowns and Country (but none of that Gretchen Wilson stuff cause she is a sinning dyke). The bible could be used as a science text book. And we could all sleep easier knowing that anyone who engages in sodomy or uses birth control in the privacy of their home will be thrown in jail. Heck, we could even bring back the temperance movement. Then, our economy would magically turn around, our budget deficit would magically be gone and our financial problems would be solved because God would bless us. We would be living just like the Cleaver family.    

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Gauche wrote:What country

Gauche wrote:

What country does have biblical values? Isn't the US among the most religious nations in the industrialized world if not the most religious?

Funny how a country like Sweden with almost exclusively secular values has a much lower crime rate than my city alone (which has a high murder rate) and has a church on every corner.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 Oh, by the title I thought you might want to have a serious discussion about our country's problems, silly me. I'm sure if the 5% of us in the country that are atheist all converted to Christianity that suddenly everything would be dandy...

Yeah, then we could live in a paradise like Iran. A good example of a religious nation.

Yeah, and then we wouldn't have to tolerate any of those sinful advertisements with women showing skin. Then we could eliminate all those sinful sitcoms and put on great quality tv shows like "American Bible Challenge" and "The 700 Club", maybe if we are feeling a little scandalous we could allow the networks to air some "I Love Lucy" reruns. We could eliminate that devil rock music and put on some Switchfoot, Casting Crowns and Country (but none of that Gretchen Wilson stuff cause she is a sinning dyke). The bible could be used as a science text book. And we could all sleep easier knowing that anyone who engages in sodomy or uses birth control in the privacy of their home will be thrown in jail. Heck, we could even bring back the temperance movement. Then, our economy would magically turn around, our budget deficit would magically be gone and our financial problems would be solved because God would bless us. We would be living just like the Cleaver family.    

 

Dystopia by any other name.....

Oh, BTW, having grown up in the 50s - people went to church because it was expected, not necessarily because they believed.  And there were darn few moms that I knew that had houses that looked like June Cleaver's.

My mom wore cut offs and went bare foot at home - she only wore heels and skirts when she went to work.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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I did intend for this to be

I did intend for this to be a debate about the countries current state, if you read my first comment I said that very clearly. I did mention that I believe it is the country's rejection of God that has made the most major difference, but somehow this got turned into a debate about the nation's christian or secular heritage. How about we all agree that this is not a Christian nation (and I truly do agree with that) but that our heritage does involve a lot of biblical principals and that at least very early on, the government was pretty vocal about religious affairs. That being said, I really did mean this to be a discussion about the current state of America. Crime rate, economy, education. Please understand that while I am a die hard bible thumping Christian, and not at all ashamed of that, I am also a father and a husband and a soldier. I don't hate people who are sinners, mainly because I am a sinner also. I do not believe the government should regulate religion, or put overly strict regulations on television, I just think we should not go so far as to have 800,000 abortions every year or show a constant flow of (near) nudity and profanity on daytime T.V. for our children to see.


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amp1022 wrote:I did intend

amp1022 wrote:

I did intend for this to be a debate about the countries current state, if you read my first comment I said that very clearly. I did mention that I believe it is the country's rejection of God that has made the most major difference, but somehow this got turned into a debate about the nation's christian or secular heritage. How about we all agree that this is not a Christian nation (and I truly do agree with that) but that our heritage does involve a lot of biblical principals and that at least very early on, the government was pretty vocal about religious affairs. That being said, I really did mean this to be a discussion about the current state of America. Crime rate, economy, education. Please understand that while I am a die hard bible thumping Christian, and not at all ashamed of that, I am also a father and a husband and a soldier. I don't hate people who are sinners, mainly because I am a sinner also. I do not believe the government should regulate religion, or put overly strict regulations on television, I just think we should not go so far as to have 800,000 abortions every year or show a constant flow of (near) nudity and profanity on daytime T.V. for our children to see.

Trying to use the bait and switch tactic again are you ?

Kind of like how you first postulated that only an idiot would say "something came from nothing " and then when it was pointed out that no one asserted that, you tried to change tactics and change the subject. This is becoming a habit with you. Why ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:Trying

harleysportster wrote:

Trying to use the bait and switch tactic again are you ?

Kind of like how you first postulated that only an idiot would say "something came from nothing " and then when it was pointed out that no one asserted that, you tried to change tactics and change the subject. This is becoming a habit with you. Why ?

wow... read the first post, this was the original topic, and read the last post I left in the other thread, I was still asking the same question. Not my problem if you can't keep up.


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amp1022

amp1022 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Trying to use the bait and switch tactic again are you ?

Kind of like how you first postulated that only an idiot would say "something came from nothing " and then when it was pointed out that no one asserted that, you tried to change tactics and change the subject. This is becoming a habit with you. Why ?

wow... read the first post, this was the original topic, and read the last post I left in the other thread, I was still asking the same question. Not my problem if you can't keep up.

The first post makes the naked assertion that this country is in decline without "god's blessings" (your words, certainly not mine) and then boldly declares that it was a christian nation and that it would be ludicrous to debate otherwise.

Well, otherwise got debated and your switching the subject. I'm keeping up just fine. There is this little thing called reality. You should try it sometime.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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amp1022 wrote:I did intend

amp1022 wrote:

I did intend for this to be a debate about the countries current state, if you read my first comment I said that very clearly. I did mention that I believe it is the country's rejection of God that has made the most major difference, but somehow this got turned into a debate about the nation's christian or secular heritage. How about we all agree that this is not a Christian nation (and I truly do agree with that) but that our heritage does involve a lot of biblical principals and that at least very early on, the government was pretty vocal about religious affairs. That being said, I really did mean this to be a discussion about the current state of America. Crime rate, economy, education. Please understand that while I am a die hard bible thumping Christian, and not at all ashamed of that, I am also a father and a husband and a soldier. I don't hate people who are sinners, mainly because I am a sinner also. I do not believe the government should regulate religion, or put overly strict regulations on television, I just think we should not go so far as to have 800,000 abortions every year or show a constant flow of (near) nudity and profanity on daytime T.V. for our children to see.

Crime rates are extremely low right now compared to what they have been in the past. The only real difference now is that local crimes are reported more nationally due to improved communication technologies. 

The economy- what does religion have to do with that? Take a gander at the political forums here and you will see that us atheists hardly have a unified view on economics. If you ask me, the problem is quite straight forward, we spent more money than we had both as individuals borrowing and through the government. Individuals have backed off their borrowing and are working on paying down their personal debt, the government continues spending like a drunken sailor (no offense meant to actual drunken sailors who IME are far more careful with their money than politicians). When you ring up too much debt, you have to pay it off, that means that your economy necessarily slows down. It isn't really that big of a problem if you deal with it, it is a great concern of mine that no one in DC seems interested in actually dealing with it.

Education: I blame the government and political correctness. We keep teachers hired based on seniority with no regard for results and we refuse to flunk kids that fail to get good grades. That we spend our time arguing over whether we should teach evolution or (un)intelligent design is something I find rather humorous since virtually none of the kids actually pay attention in class anyway. 

How would banning abortion improve anything? Do you really think that nudity causes.... what exactly? And profanity? Exactly how does a certain word damage anything? Do you think that getting rid of/limiting abortion, nudity and profanity would do anything to solve the major problems of our country? Exactly what do you think our major problems are?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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How can anyone argue about

How can anyone argue about that when it's not apparent what these biblical values are that you are talking about? The only thing you said about it is that the US doesn't have them. You didn't even answer my question about who if anyone does have biblical values and it's not clear when you think the US stopped having them.

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amp1022 wrote:I did intend

amp1022 wrote:

I did intend for this to be a debate about the countries current state, if you read my first comment I said that very clearly. I did mention that I believe it is the country's rejection of God that has made the most major difference, but somehow this got turned into a debate about the nation's christian or secular heritage. How about we all agree that this is not a Christian nation (and I truly do agree with that) but that our heritage does involve a lot of biblical principals and that at least very early on, the government was pretty vocal about religious affairs. That being said, I really did mean this to be a discussion about the current state of America. Crime rate, economy, education. Please understand that while I am a die hard bible thumping Christian, and not at all ashamed of that, I am also a father and a husband and a soldier. I don't hate people who are sinners, mainly because I am a sinner also. I do not believe the government should regulate religion, or put overly strict regulations on television, I just think we should not go so far as to have 800,000 abortions every year or show a constant flow of (near) nudity and profanity on daytime T.V. for our children to see.

 

I am a parent.  My youngest just turned 35, my oldest is 41.  The oldest just retired from the Air Force and my middle son had a medical discharge from the Army.  And they were raised in an atheist household. 

The crime rate varies immensely across the country.  You have to pay money to see all of the maps at this website, but the one on the main page is illustrative of my point.

http://www.policymap.com/crime-statistics/index.html

Shoot, even in my own city, neighborhoods have different crime rates, and it isn't always associated with socioeconomic status of the neighborhood.  Some of the gated subdivisions have a higher crime rate than my neighborhood because they have more worth stealing.

So, if you are concerned about the crime in your neighborhood, move to one will less crime.  Many cities now have GIS maps with crimes in a particular neighborhood.  Look it up.  You may be surprised to find it doesn't correlate to number of churches at all.

Abortions - you want to reduce the number of abortions?  Comprehensive sex education that includes information on birth control and healthy relationships.  You know what I stressed with my sons?  Keep it zipped unless you are willing to deal with the consequences.  And NO means NO - all the time, every time, no matter when it is said.  I am very proud of my sons as there have been no abortions or unwanted pregnancies in my family.  Even though I would have supported the mother regardless of her choice.

TV and internet.  Dude, you are the parent.  Install nanny programs on the childrens' computer, many cable companies have options to restrict certain channels.  My solution?  Remove the back of the TV and remove the clip on the power cable that keeps you from being able to remove the cord.  (This will likely void any warranty, and may be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing, so at your own risk.)  Then, when I left for the day, I took the power cord with me.  Problem solved.  I don't know why they don't make it so that you can easily remove the cord whenever you want.  And why people give children a TV in their own rooms I don't know.  How can you monitor what they watch?  A TV in your own room for when you want to watch adult programs, sure.  But then, how do you know what your children are watching?  Get a book and be in the room while they watch Sesame Street or whatever.  It won't kill you and your children will appreciate your sharing their experience.

Also, I discovered when our TV broke and I couldn't afford to replace it immediately, that the kids' grades went up and fighting went down.  I didn't get another TV for almost 15 years.  We listened to the stereo or radio or did without.  Smart phones is your lookout.  A simple mobile phone so that your child can call home but not receive pictures or video is an option.  How much you allow your children is completely and totally your choice.

Anytime you start restricting other adult people's choices, you get in problems.  Google reported the most porn viewing per country -  Pakistan - one of the most restrictive of theocracies.  Think about it.

And no, I don't believe all will be wonderful if we all got the holy spirit.  I haven't noticed christian men avoiding pornography particularly.  And my atheist husband?  He thinks porn is lame, and sex is not a spectator sport.  You can't get away from "to each his or her own."

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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 I actually agree that the

 I actually agree that the thread got side tracked.

 

So you assert that the US got great very quickly because of a Christian god, and now it's in decline Because god withdrew its blessing, right?

 

What proof do you have that god made the country great? I'd say huge untapped natural resources, lack of restriction due to historical reasons, and copious use of slaves as free labour were all contributing factors.

 

How did a belief in God help? Scratch that, how did GOD actually help?

Compare this with the rapid advancement of China today - with an almost entirely unchristian population. What's the explanation for their rapid expansion? Have they accidentally found god's blessing?

 

On to the decline.

I'm not sure what timespan you're talking about here, so I'll assume it's the financial decline of the US in the last 5 years (please do correct me)

The country's wellbeing is intrinsically linked to its financial stability. Unfortunately, the financial model of the US was based on some figures that didn't add up, meaning that sub prime mortgages were provide to vast swathes of people they really shouldn't have been, their debts were consolidated into credit default swaps, which were extremely complex and ultimately big fat lies which undermined the economy and sent the banking sector into a whirlpool of trust issues, which became a self-fulfilling prophecy of debt-riddled shitness.

I 100% would agree with you that man's greed caused this decline (if you posited that), this has plenty of evidence to back it up. The removal of god's blessing however, doesn't have any evidence.

I would ask you how you know god has removed his blessing? if you say it's because the nation is falling apart, then you're simply begging the question.

 

We require evidence for a position when such a position is put forward. so please have a go at providing evidence that god is responsible for either the rise or fall of the US. Currently I believe your position to be a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation)

 

Thanks


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I Don't have any proof that

I Don't have any proof that the removal of God's blessing is responsible for America's decline. In fact I will go so far as to admit that I am not even 100% sure that is the case. (although I absolutely believe God has blessed America and that he alone is responsible for our incredible success) I just notice mass murder being promoted by our government (abortion), I know i know, a baby is a part of a woman's body, that's why she is born with a baby inside her right? That's why she is required to sign a mortgage on her baby, because its just personal property. Got it, whatever... ( for the record I don't hate or condemn you if you have had an abortion, I do pity you though.) Anyways, I don't have cable at my home so no one here is watching the trash they put out. I do not view pornography, and that is because of my Christian values. I have zero respect for a woman that would allow her body to be objectified that way. ( again, don't hate em, just don't respect em.) I do not live in a bad neighborhood, I live on Fort Gordon GA. Pretty nice place I guess.

I have a little antenna hooked up to the tv in my bedroom. My favorite channel is called MeTV. Its mostly just old black and white shows, back when woman had respect for themselves and men were...well, men. When hollywood promoted respect and loyalty and kindness, kinda like Jesus. But these days people are all Me Me Me!  I got pregnant under circumstances I don't like, oh well just kill it. I don't like my neighbor, oh well just kill him. I don't like your religion, put up a billboard that offends millions of Americans.

I am not a prude. I drink beer (I just don't get drunk), I have sex (just only with my wife), I listen to music (only christian granted, but check out a rapper named Lecrae, you might be suprised), my kids and I like to pull pranks on people, sometimes if we are out we find trucks that are covered in dirt or mud and write silly things on em, (stupid things like "poop" but the kids find it hilarious.)

My point is, I am not just trying to judge you all and say you are evil so God is making you poor, I am just saying that things that God calls immoral are on the rise and the nation is on the decline. I guess it seems more obvious to me since I am a believer and you are not. This is one time when I can honestly say I hope I am wrong. But I doubt it.


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 Wait wait wait...amp1022

 

Wait wait wait...

amp1022 wrote:

 I know i know, a baby is a part of a woman's body, that's why she is born with a baby inside her right? 

 

We can address you other points in a sec, but.. please explain this bit of biology..

 

Women are not born with babies inside them dude... we're not aphids...


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amp1022 wrote:I Don't have

amp1022 wrote:

I Don't have any proof that the removal of God's blessing is responsible for America's decline. In fact I will go so far as to admit that I am not even 100% sure that is the case. (although I absolutely believe God has blessed America and that he alone is responsible for our incredible success) 

Do you believe a lot of things that you don't have evidence for?

 

amp1022 wrote:

I am not a prude. I drink beer (I just don't get drunk), I have sex (just only with my wife), I listen to music (only christian granted, but check out a rapper named Lecrae, you might be suprised), my kids and I like to pull pranks on people, sometimes if we are out we find trucks that are covered in dirt or mud and write silly things on em, (stupid things like "poop" but the kids find it hilarious.)

Sounds kind of prudish to me but that's fine- most people are rather prudish compared to me, I fully support your right to be as prudish or not prudish as you desire. My only request is that you allow me to be as much of a heathen as I desire as long as you don't try to pass any laws to stop me I have no problems. Unfortunately, many of your fellow Christians actively seek laws to stop me from enjoying some of my favorite past times. 

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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amp1022 wrote:I Don't have

amp1022 wrote:

I Don't have any proof...

That is where you should have stopped writing and if I were more intelligent I probably would have stopped reading because everything that followed was pointless, aimless, meandering blather that had nothing to do with your original post. As a courtesy you should at least try to be brief. 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
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amp1022 wrote:My point is, I

amp1022 wrote:

My point is, I am not just trying to judge you all and say you are evil so God is making you poor, I am just saying that things that God calls immoral are on the rise and the nation is on the decline. I guess it seems more obvious to me since I am a believer and you are not. This is one time when I can honestly say I hope I am wrong. But I doubt it.

 

It is hard to know where to start - you must have a difficult time living in la-la land.  Let's start with I was born in 1950 - I really am 61 almost 62 years old.  No lie.

You think there was no pornography in the 50s?  Wrong.  You think we all had "Leave it to Beaver" families?  Wrong.  You think everyone went to church?  Wrong.  You think there were no abortions even though they were illegal?  Wrong. 

You think this might be true of the 40s?  Nope.  30s?  Nope.  Not according to my mom and grandmothers and mother-in-law and grandmother-in-law.  Was it ever true?  More than likely not.  And if you have ever read "The Scarlet Letter" I hope you can realize your fantasy of a time past was never true.

If you want, I guess you can pat yourself on the back for agreeing with Plato, who thought Greece was going downhill given the younger generation of his time.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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sorry, that bit about women

sorry, that bit about women being born with babies in them was sarcasm.

And I guess prudishness is relative.

And I agree that you should be free to pursue whatever you enjoy as long as it isn't hurting others. The problem is a lot of stuff does people hurt even though you might not think so. Most men who view porn regularly think they do it because they just like it, but trying going a month without it, bet you can't. I mean why else is the divorce rate like 50% right now? Men spend half their time looking at or thinking about women other than their wives, how is that woman supposed to feel about that. Of course the woman has to say she is ok with it to avoid looking insecure. And how is it helping matters that a man can't watch tv without seeing half naked women every five seconds? How is a teenage boy supposed to respect women when he rarely sees women that respect themselves enough to stay fully clothed in public. I am a firm believer that women have more to offer then just their bodies, and that flaunting their bodies makes it almost impossible for a man to focus on anything else about them.

And how is it wrong of me to be against abortion as birth control? I am against all abortion but lets start with this. Even if you don't believe life begins at conception, any way you look at it, you are snuffing out a life. Had the abortion never taken place, a human would have been born and a life would have been lived. I was abandoned at birth, raised in poverty, abused, neglected, molested, hooked on drugs by the time I was twelve, smoking cigs when I was nine, I had a loving mother, but she was victimized by life and apparently could not rise above it on her own. She suffered from severe depression and had multiple suicide attempts. ( I watched her slit her wrists once, not one of my favorite memories) She found Jesus later on and lives a quiet peaceful life now (weird since he apparently doesn't exist...) I ma not looking for sympathy, have no use for it in fact. My point is, I am a level headed contributing member of society, I love my wife and children and love providing for them, I love Jesus and I try hard to help others in need, I support my country by serving in the military, and I harbor no grudge against those that wronged me when I was young. Thank God I was not aborted just because I was not wanted by my father, or the rest of the world for that matter. I love life, but society would have taken one look at what my life was going to be and said "do him a favor and abort the pregnancy."

 

by the way, i know it is off the subject, but it seems like too much red wine would give you alcohol poisening, and if you had too many books, where would you store them all? I am 100% with you on the ammo thing though.


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amp1022 wrote:Seems to me

amp1022 wrote:

Seems to me that this nation started out with prayer and Biblical values, prospered more than just about any other nation in history, then took all the credit, gave up the values, and suddenly went into a rapid decline. I don't mean this to be a debate about whether this country was founded on Christian values, its so obvious its not worth debating. I am just wonder how you feel about your obvious inability to maintain America's success without God's blessings.

 

Do you still beat your wife?  You used to kick dogs and eat baby kittens.  It's so obvious it's not worth debating if any of this is true.  I just wonder how you feel about your obvious inability to not maintain a set of morals based on the wishes of the flying spaghetti monster.

 

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amp1022 wrote:And I agree

amp1022 wrote:

And I agree that you should be free to pursue whatever you enjoy as long as it isn't hurting others. The problem is a lot of stuff does people hurt even though you might not think so. Most men who view porn regularly think they do it because they just like it, but trying going a month without it, bet you can't. I mean why else is the divorce rate like 50% right now?

Substantial changes in divorce law that allow women to divorce their husbands and still get a good portion of the assets plus child support. A woman in the 20's would have been leaving everything if she tried to divorce her husband, most often she would simply leave because she didn't have her own money and divorce isn't free. Now women are equal or sometimes slightly more favored in law than men especially if the guy was cheating on her. This makes it more likely that a wife will sue for divorce. (Plus, women work more now so she generally has access to money to hire a lawyer) You make it easier for more people to sue for divorce and you get more divorces, hardly surprising. Although, I would like to think that more people are waking up to the fact that marriage is bullshit- I doubt it. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

Men spend half their time looking at or thinking about women other than their wives, how is that woman supposed to feel about that. Of course the woman has to say she is ok with it to avoid looking insecure. And how is it helping matters that a man can't watch tv without seeing half naked women every five seconds?

Some wives look at porn too, some even watch it with their husbands *gasp*. So how much are you willing to bet on me going a month without porn? Does live action count as porn? We can arrange a little wager, loser donates to a charity of the winners choice. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

How is a teenage boy supposed to respect women when he rarely sees women that respect themselves enough to stay fully clothed in public. I am a firm believer that women have more to offer then just their bodies, and that flaunting their bodies makes it almost impossible for a man to focus on anything else about them.

If you spend more time around naked women you will be able to focus on a lot of other things. I think it is rather unhealthy when a male is so enamored by the mere fact a woman is naked that he is incapable of treating her as a human. They are tits, yes they are very nice looking, but there is no reason to stop respecting a woman simply because she has them hanging out. You can have a perfectly intellectual conversation with a naked woman, it is not impossible. Honestly, the one thing about a woman that is capable of completely distracting me to the point where I can barely talk is a beautiful pair of eyes. Met one woman with those last year when I was on a little vacation in wine country and I was stumbling over my words like a virgin 15 year old, it was rather embarrassing and I completely botched my attempt to ask her out to dinner. Women should be forced to wear sunglasses so I don't get distracted like that.

 

amp1022 wrote:

And how is it wrong of me to be against abortion as birth control? I am against all abortion but lets start with this. Even if you don't believe life begins at conception, any way you look at it, you are snuffing out a life. Had the abortion never taken place, a human would have been born and a life would have been lived.

Using that logic you should sleep around as much as you can because every time you pass on an opportunity to impregnate a woman you are preventing a human from being born that could have lived. Personally, I do not think there is a shortage of humans, so there is no need to worry about some not being born. I would never pay for an abortion myself, but I am not going to stand in the way of those who choose that route. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

My point is, I am a level headed contributing member of society, I love my wife and children and love providing for them, I love Jesus and I try hard to help others in need, I support my country by serving in the military, and I harbor no grudge against those that wronged me when I was young. Thank God I was not aborted just because I was not wanted by my father, or the rest of the world for that matter. I love life, but society would have taken one look at what my life was going to be and said "do him a favor and abort the pregnancy."

 

I don't support society making the decision at all. It was your mothers choice one way or the other. I'm glad you approve of her choice.

 

amp1022 wrote:
 

by the way, i know it is off the subject, but it seems like too much red wine would give you alcohol poisening, and if you had too many books, where would you store them all? I am 100% with you on the ammo thing though.

Red wine is meant to be consumed slowly over time, not slammed it is too expensive and too good for that. The beauty of it is that a high quality bottle can age 15-40 years and most can at least age well for 10-15 years so you don't have to be in a hurry and can take your time savoring it. I suppose you could get alcohol poisoning if you really worked hard at it, but that would be a waste of good wine, if you are drinking that hard hit the whiskey or brandy. 

As for the books, if I run out of room I guess I'll have to buy another house or go all Andrew Carnegie and build libraries. Cross that bridge when I get to it. I still prefer old fashioned hardcovers to digital.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Drink

Beyond Saving wrote:

Red wine is meant to be consumed slowly over time, not slammed it is too expensive and too good for that. The beauty of it is that a high quality bottle can age 15-40 years and most can at least age well for 10-15 years so you don't have to be in a hurry and can take your time savoring it. I suppose you could get alcohol poisoning if you really worked hard at it, but that would be a waste of good wine, if you are drinking that hard hit the whiskey or brandy.

I found that vodka was better suited to heavy drinking, but I suppose it depends on one's metabolism.

I also find that red wine needs to be consumed in moderation and that it is gorgeous.

 


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Gauche wrote:amp1022 wrote:I

Gauche wrote:

amp1022 wrote:

I Don't have any proof...

That is where you should have stopped writing and if I were more intelligent I probably would have stopped reading because everything that followed was pointless, aimless, meandering blather that had nothing to do with your original post. As a courtesy you should at least try to be brief. 

I am in full agreement with Gauche.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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amp1022 wrote:And I agree

amp1022 wrote:

And I agree that you should be free to pursue whatever you enjoy as long as it isn't hurting others. The problem is a lot of stuff does people hurt even though you might not think so. Most men who view porn regularly think they do it because they just like it, but trying going a month without it, bet you can't. I mean why else is the divorce rate like 50% right now? Men spend half their time looking at or thinking about women other than their wives, how is that woman supposed to feel about that. Of course the woman has to say she is ok with it to avoid looking insecure. And how is it helping matters that a man can't watch tv without seeing half naked women every five seconds? How is a teenage boy supposed to respect women when he rarely sees women that respect themselves enough to stay fully clothed in public. I am a firm believer that women have more to offer then just their bodies, and that flaunting their bodies makes it almost impossible for a man to focus on anything else about them.

And how is it wrong of me to be against abortion as birth control? I am against all abortion but lets start with this. Even if you don't believe life begins at conception, any way you look at it, you are snuffing out a life. Had the abortion never taken place, a human would have been born and a life would have been lived. I was abandoned at birth, raised in poverty, abused, neglected, molested, hooked on drugs by the time I was twelve, smoking cigs when I was nine, I had a loving mother, but she was victimized by life and apparently could not rise above it on her own. She suffered from severe depression and had multiple suicide attempts. ( I watched her slit her wrists once, not one of my favorite memories) She found Jesus later on and lives a quiet peaceful life now (weird since he apparently doesn't exist...) I ma not looking for sympathy, have no use for it in fact. My point is, I am a level headed contributing member of society, I love my wife and children and love providing for them, I love Jesus and I try hard to help others in need, I support my country by serving in the military, and I harbor no grudge against those that wronged me when I was young. Thank God I was not aborted just because I was not wanted by my father, or the rest of the world for that matter. I love life, but society would have taken one look at what my life was going to be and said "do him a favor and abort the pregnancy."

 

by the way, i know it is off the subject, but it seems like too much red wine would give you alcohol poisening, and if you had too many books, where would you store them all? I am 100% with you on the ammo thing though.

 

Sigh - I suppose you support the Health Reform Act that requires FREE birth control for all women?

And you support Planned Parenthood where 97% of their services are for birth control, std treatment and counseling and reproductive services for men and women other than abortion?

 

And I realize you said you were only against abortions "for birth control", but what about rape and incest?

http://weareultraviolet.org/stories/akin/ wrote:

  • Dear Todd Akin - Your personal experiences seem to have left you blind to the real world. Yes, I was raped and then I had to wait a month before I found out if I was or was not HIV positive because of it. The hospital gave me the morning after pill and I thank God that it was allowed. I am an upstanding member of my community, a tax paying citizen and raised Catholic. I resent not just your faulty science, but the feelings of entitlement that led you to believe such idiocy. Two total strangers broke into my house. I was violated in the privacy of my own home.

    Michele, MD

 

The web site has many more rape stories. 

What really twists my tail are the number of anti-abortionists (not only christians and other religious people but also some of the atheists on this forum) who are all too ready to get involved in someone's choices about their own health.  And a person's mental health is just as important as their physical health.

Abortion is between the mother, her doctor, and whoever else she wishes to involve.  It is none of your business.  Period.  Not even if you are the father.  It's not your body.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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harleysportster wrote:Gauche

harleysportster wrote:

Gauche wrote:

amp1022 wrote:

I Don't have any proof...

That is where you should have stopped writing and if I were more intelligent I probably would have stopped reading because everything that followed was pointless, aimless, meandering blather that had nothing to do with your original post. As a courtesy you should at least try to be brief. 

I am in full agreement with Gauche.

Thanks, you people are obviously much better than I am. When someone starts with the admission there will be no evidence at all, for me that's a wrap.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Boy oh boy it has nothing to

Boy oh boy it has nothing to do with religious morality or god or anything like that, it's simple economics, history and both national and foreign policies, as well as the spread of wealth and technology world wide.

First and foremost in the 1950's the US came out of WWII far better than most other super powers at the time, which were all european, France, England and Germany were completely destroyed at the end of WWII. Hugely in debt, infrastructures and manufacturing damaged, they had lots to rebuild, unlike US which did not have any infrastructure damage. Then of course the US loaned France and England a ton of money which they collected back....with interest, plus with no one else having a manufacturing infrastructure like the US they came out on top with no problems. However starting in the late 70's and throughout the 80's, those jobs went to Asia, as such in the 90's saw lots of job that were outsourced because salaries were getting to high in the manufacturing sector. As well, with the loss of that money locally, education also took hit, plus that change in education policies in the 90's and into early 2000, in which basically you cannot fail, you may not know how to read, or write but you can't fail, the students coming out of the US education system were not exactly on par with the rest of the world. This I can attest as I attended school in Canada, Argentina and the US. The US being the easiest to get A's, while Argentina and Canada (in respective order) were much harder. As such students in Canada that do attend US colleges or universities have their grades automatically upped by 10 percent, so an 80 in Canada is 90 in the US, due to the fact that our education system is better overall than the US system.

As such with lower education, loss of jobs, the US in the end of the 1990's with the tech bubble burst and then again in 2008 with the bank collapse (because letting banks regulate themselves is always a smart thing to do) it is easy to see why the US has fallen in such a short time from superpower status really. Plus lets not forget 2 wars in the middle east which isn't cheap and has cost them dearly, especially this 11 year war in afghanistan. Thrown in US politics into the mix with republicans and democrats out to destroy each other and not really help the american people, well you have a recipe for disaster. It has nothing to do with religion, Canada is far less religious than the US and we are prospering far better than the US. The US will rebuild itself but it will not really be the superpower it once was, technology is widely available to all countries, the education system in many asian countries are far far superior to the US, plus the massive debt that the US finds itself....15 plus trillion, much owed to China and you can see that this will take a long time to clean up.


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e an

amp1022 wrote:

And I agree that you should be free to pursue whatever you enjoy as long as it isn't hurting others.

I agree with you

amp1022 wrote:

The problem is a lot of stuff does people hurt even though you might not think so. Most men who view porn regularly think they do it because they just like it, but trying going a month without it, bet you can't. I mean why else is the divorce rate like 50% right now? Men spend half their time looking at or thinking about women other than their wives, how is that woman supposed to feel about that.

The reality is the men and women have cheated on each other throughout history, more so men where it was socially acceptable, look up courtesan. Plus in those days if divorce happened the woman was left usually with little to nothing. Today that is quite different, if you notice than once the divorce laws changed in which women no longer were on the losing end, the divorce rate increased. It has nothing to do with god or religion.

amp1022 wrote:

Of course the woman has to say she is ok with it to avoid looking insecure. And how is it helping matters that a man can't watch tv without seeing half naked women every five seconds? How is a teenage boy supposed to respect women when he rarely sees women that respect themselves enough to stay fully clothed in public. I am a firm believer that women have more to offer then just their bodies, and that flaunting their bodies makes it almost impossible for a man to focus on anything else about them.

the first part women don't have to say they are ok with it, hence the divorce rate increase, same available technology and take away the current divorce laws and put the same laws in the early 1900's and you will see a decrease in divorce rates and your first statement will be far more true than it is today. As for the second part I am also a firm believer that women have to offer more than their bodies, women like that, are a do not buy type of women (using stock bond talk) as they need lots of money invested into them to keep them looking that way. I prefer a woman that can help me out financially, if she can look good as she ages that's a bonus however if we can live financially secure it is far better.

amp1022 wrote:

And how is it wrong of me to be against abortion as birth control? I am against all abortion but lets start with this. Even if you don't believe life begins at conception, any way you look at it, you are snuffing out a life.

I agree with you in regards to abortion as a birth control, it does far more damage in the long run, as it can scar the uterus if multiple abortions are done. However when it comes to abortion for health, rape, incest reasons then I am for it, you do not have to make that decision, you do not have to live with that decision and you do not have to deal with the pregnancy, as such that is not you to make that decision for that person.

amp1022 wrote:

Had the abortion never taken place, a human would have been born and a life would have been lived. I was abandoned at birth, raised in poverty, abused, neglected, molested, hooked on drugs by the time I was twelve, smoking cigs when I was nine, I had a loving mother, but she was victimized by life and apparently could not rise above it on her own. She suffered from severe depression and had multiple suicide attempts. ( I watched her slit her wrists once, not one of my favorite memories) She found Jesus later on and lives a quiet peaceful life now (weird since he apparently doesn't exist...) I ma not looking for sympathy, have no use for it in fact. My point is, I am a level headed contributing member of society, I love my wife and children and love providing for them, I love Jesus and I try hard to help others in need, I support my country by serving in the military, and I harbor no grudge against those that wronged me when I was young. Thank God I was not aborted just because I was not wanted by my father, or the rest of the world for that matter. I love life, but society would have taken one look at what my life was going to be and said "do him a favor and abort the pregnancy."

congrats you had a shitty childhood, that still doesn't change my mind on the abortion debate, you do not have to deal with that woman's pregnancy, you do not have to deal with her problems, as such you have no say in what she decides to do with her body, in health reasons, it is far better to abort than have both dead, in rape and incest cases, again you do not have to deal with their trauma, they do, and it is up to them to make that decision, however I would personally have them see a councillor before and after the abortion. As for the your mom found jesus, so what, I know people that follow the buddhist faith that live a far more peaceful life than what they did before following the buddhist doctrine, doesn't make it real, it means they focus their lives on something else other than their own problems, usually looking forward to the next life or something else after this life. It is a crutch for life and reality.


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amp1022 wrote:Seems to me

amp1022 wrote:

Seems to me that this nation started out with prayer and Biblical values, prospered more than just about any other nation in history, then took all the credit, gave up the values, and suddenly went into a rapid decline. I don't mean this to be a debate about whether this country was founded on Christian values, its so obvious its not worth debating. I am just wonder how you feel about your obvious inability to maintain America's success without God's blessings.

Well, I guess  you are at odds with an entire congress and a founding president in John Adams, when they all signed the Barbary Treaty in which article 11 says


"As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" Singed without dissent by BOTH houses of Congress and into law June 10th 1797 by President John Adams.

Would you like to get into Thomas Jefferson?

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god, for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear" Thomas Jefferson

Our nation isn't failing because of lack of prayer. It is failing because our politicians have used social issues to distract all sects of all religions from the fact that they are protecting the rich class and monopolies of power.

Oh and if the bible is so required to hold office, care to explain the Constitution's ban on religious litmus tests?

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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The reason the U.S.

 

is struggling at present has nothing whatever to do with religion and much to do with Western consumers' endless appetite for made goods at ever lower prices combined with its justifiably legislated inability to compete with lowest wage economies in the global market. When an economy shifts from manufacturing to service you are going to get an increase in unemployment and inadequate employment, along with all the torment that comes with it. The poorest and least educated are hit the hardest.

The U.S. also has a bizarre ideological issue with coherent and forceful regulation of the banking sector that allows financial corporations to use the magic of compound interest to enslave the poor and the stupid at the ultimate expense of the public treasury. Someone needs to sort that shit out. Australian banks are sternly regulated and massively profitable - the most profitable banks in the world and the third largest in the world by market capitalisation behind the U.S. and China. And there are only 22.5 million of us. 

I agree there is crime in parts of the West. My personal opinion is that this relates to massive urbanisation and the loss of connection between city dwellers. We see the same things happen in madly growing urban centres in China. In the city I have lived in the same terrace house for 10 years and have never met my neighbors. In the country, I met Rob and Marie and their kids the day I arrived.

Another powerful driver of urban crime is alcohol abuse. In Australia this is a major cultural problem that could use a dose of European moderation. To insist, however, that such things are recent issues would be to confess a complete unfamiliarity with the works of Dickens.  

The argument of the OP is yet more right wing christian false dichotomy. Love you some Jesus or turn into a raping, murdering psychopath. In case your pea-like brain is unaware of it, amp, atheists have the lowest representation in prisons as a percentage of population of any religious or irreligious group. The empirical evidence is in. 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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amp1022 wrote:Seems to me

amp1022 wrote:

Seems to me that this nation started out with prayer and Biblical values, prospered more than just about any other nation in history, then took all the credit, gave up the values, and suddenly went into a rapid decline. I don't mean this to be a debate about whether this country was founded on Christian values, its so obvious its not worth debating. I am just wonder how you feel about your obvious inability to maintain America's success without God's blessings.

*facepalm*

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


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amp1022 wrote:When in the

amp1022 wrote:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

the first two sentences mention God 3 times. They even go so far as to say that it is God that endows us with our rights as human beings, seriously why would you even say that without looking at the document first? you would only have needed to read the first two lines.

Where the fuck do you get "the god of Jesus" out of Nature's God? In the first hand? That notion of life not being of magicaland being natural and government run by man, was radical. If they wanted a standard theocracy it would have been quite easy for them to set up a religious pecking order by naming Christianity by the word CHRISTIANITY. Where do you see "Christian" or "Jesus" in the words you quoted?

AND did it ever fucking occur to you that in the decade from the start of the war to the finish of the war and signing of the CONSTITUTION, which is LAW, where as the Declearation of Independance was JUST A LETTER, did it ever occur to you that in that decade they argued about it so much they LEFT IT OUT of the constitution.

SHOW ME WHERE IN THE LAW OF THE CONSTITUTION IT GIVES CHRISTIANS SPECIAL RIGHTS TO BE THE SOLE ALPHA MALE?

CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION!

"NO RELIGIOUS TEST"

"Their creator" did not mean a collective monopoly of one religion over another. "Their creator" ment that what you personally believed without government telling you what to believe.

What you are trying to sell me is that the founders were too fucking stupid to say "Christians are top dogs and all others are mere guests" SHOW ME THE PECKING ORDER SET UP. I don't think they were stupid. I think they had a reason to leave out the words "Christianity and Jesus".

And you STILL on top of that refuse to explain the Barbary Treaty and article 11. IF THE FOUNDERS wanted a Christian theocracy then why did an entire congress and a president SIGN A LAW saying "As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

"God" to them was NOT a matter of government cheerleading, but one they had a duty to remain neutral on and was to be left up to the mind of the individual.

We have a Muslim senator who swore in on a copy of a Koran once owned by Jefferson. We also have a Jewish senator and an atheist senator.

WHY? "NO RELIGIOUS TEST". They did offer their religious opinions, YES, but they DID NOT want monopolies of power or religious pecking orders.

If you want to live in a theocracy go live in Iran, the Christians that live there can tell you how fucking great it is.

 

 

 

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  America is falling apart

  America is falling apart because this is The End Times™.   Haven't you been keeping up with  Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, Tim Lahaye, Peter and Paul Lalonde, and all the other screaming preachers ?   It's the beginning of the f**king Apocalypse™ you moron.       This is all supposed to be happening according to God's schedule, so sit back and enjoy it.  It's not like you can stop it from happening.

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

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ProzacDeathWish wrote: 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  America is falling apart because this is The End Times™.   Haven't you been keeping up with  Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, Tim Lahaye, Peter and Paul Lalonde, and all the other screaming preachers ?   It's the beginning of the f**king Apocalypse™ you moron.       This is all supposed to be happening according to God's schedule, so sit back and enjoy it.  It's not like you can stop it from happening.

It looks like amp is no longer wanting to amplify useless assertions.

Damn, just when the fun was beginning to start.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I had been thinking TWD was

I had been thinking TWD was a troll theitard. Was less convinced on that about AMP, but the way they argued and defended their position was pretty weak, even child-like.

I spend time now and again on christian websites to see what the kids are up to. Well I hit one yesterday that was like reading amp and twd arguing with each other. Lots of naked assertions and hey-nan-nannies. You know I just think that is just how they argue. We really might be expecting way too much from the average christian fundamentalists.

The website forum topic was about how calvinism isn't the true gospel. I like reading about predestination and free will and reading christians argue with each other about it is fun for me.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85122

So take a gander in that thread and see if you think like I do about it.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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one hey-nannie exchange to

one hey-nannie exchange to illustrate what I mean



Point: You my friend, are the "deluded" one!!

Counterpoint: We will soon see at the day of Judgment, and I am telling you now, you do not believe the Gospel

They are lucky to have non-believers to hate.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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ex-minister wrote:I had been

ex-minister wrote:
I had been thinking TWD was a troll theitard. Was less convinced on that about AMP, but the way they argued and defended their position was pretty weak, even child-like. I spend time now and again on christian websites to see what the kids are up to. Well I hit one yesterday that was like reading amp and twd arguing with each other. Lots of naked assertions and hey-nan-nannies. You know I just think that is just how they argue. We really might be expecting way too much from the average christian fundamentalists. The website forum topic was about how calvinism isn't the true gospel. I like reading about predestination and free will and reading christians argue with each other about it is fun for me. http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85122 So take a gander in that thread and see if you think like I do about it.

I hadn't thought about that until you brought it up.

When I was a young devout Catholic and believed all of that bullshit, I was bad about making assertions and getting upset when something threatened the security of my delusions.

Perhaps we do expect too much from fundies.

But, I guess I am a little harder on fundies because I believe that if I could overcome the god meme, anybody should. Which is ridiculous on my part, but it is just how I feel at times.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Fix our glaze upon the masterfulness . .

 

brotherfromanothermother wrote:
Haven't you been keeping up with  Hal Lindsey, John Hagee, Tim Lahaye, Peter and Paul Lalonde, and all the other screaming preachers ?   It's the beginning of the f**king Apocalypse™ you moron.  

  Sure be with all the Nay sayers, but weren't we warned there would be scoffers in the End Times ? Yeah sure. But, Think of all the times they've been wrong in the past (blink).


 


 
          This is a B3AST
    
     This is a BU1L 
     
        
 And How do you confuse the two ? Example of the  masterful teaching illustrated.


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The Bible CLEARLY states

ex-minister wrote:
one hey-nannie exchange to illustrate what I mean

 

Point: You my friend, are the "deluded" one!!

Counterpoint: We will soon see at the day of Judgment, and I am telling you now, you do not believe the Gospel

 

They are lucky to have non-believers to hate.

Found another instructive LOL exchange. They vehemently disagree with each other and believe the other guy is hell bound. Meanwhile THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES. Isn't that irony?

POINT: The Bible clearly says that God has reconciled the world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

COUNTERPOINT: The Bible clearly says that every creature in heaven and in the earth and under the earth and in the sea says, "Worthy is the Lamb" and worships Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb forever and ever. Revelation 5:11-13. So by your logic the lake of fire will be emptied. The word "world" often refers to the redeemed creation only. Furthermore, Paul said that the gospel had produced fruit in "all the world" and that it had been preached to "every creature under heaven." had produced fruit in "all the world" Colossians 1:6, 23. Nobody in their right mind believes that every person in Paul's time had heard the gospel. Your arguments are very weak.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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The Bible CLEARLY states

ex-minister wrote:
one hey-nannie exchange to illustrate what I mean

 

Point: You my friend, are the "deluded" one!!

Counterpoint: We will soon see at the day of Judgment, and I am telling you now, you do not believe the Gospel

 

They are lucky to have non-believers to hate.

Found another instructive LOL exchange. They vehemently disagree with each other and believe the other guy is hell bound. Meanwhile THE BIBLE CLEARLY STATES. Isn't that irony?

POINT: The Bible clearly says that God has reconciled the world unto himself, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

COUNTERPOINT: The Bible clearly says that every creature in heaven and in the earth and under the earth and in the sea says, "Worthy is the Lamb" and worships Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb forever and ever. Revelation 5:11-13. So by your logic the lake of fire will be emptied. The word "world" often refers to the redeemed creation only. Furthermore, Paul said that the gospel had produced fruit in "all the world" and that it had been preached to "every creature under heaven." had produced fruit in "all the world" Colossians 1:6, 23. Nobody in their right mind believes that every person in Paul's time had heard the gospel. Your arguments are very weak.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

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