Why do athiest' care?

amp1022
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Why do athiest' care?

I have a question for all atheist'. What is the point in your life without a higher power? I don't mean it as an insult, but as a sincere question. What is the point in arguing against a religion that you believe is just as fictional as harry potter or star wars? Why do you care if a televangelist takes an old lady's social security check? If we all are here by chance, or whatever you want to call it, then who cares what anyone does? In a million years none of us will exist, there will not even be a memory of an old lady or her money. If only the physical exists, then the past does not exist. Your memories are just information stored in the grey matter encased in your skull. Anything anyone did yesterday, good or bad, means absolutely nothing today, because even those affected by it will soon cease to exist and the memory will be deleted and there will be no reward or justice of any kind.

If you are right, then there is absolutely no reason to even try to behave with any kind of morality, because its completely relative. If a man feels good about forcing himself on a woman, then who can tell him that is wrong? He is just a walking, talking assemblage of meat and bone, interacting with another assemblage. Why would it matter what kind of interaction takes place? If a man believes that he should murder a million people because it is right to him, then who are you to say it is immoral? It would only be immoral to you and the morals that you chose for yourself, not to him and the morals he chose.

If I say it is wrong to be homosexual, the typical question I get is; who am I to make that judgement call? Well I pose the same question, according to you there is no higher power or authority, so what drives you to do right? And furthermore what gives you the right to distinguish right from wrong? How is murdering a human any different than murdering a fly? Both are moving, thinking organisms that evolved from lesser ones, neither has a greater destiny or purpose. Why is punching a person different from punching a rock, both cause a reaction in an object, both cause physical pain, and neither will have any impact on the great scheme of things, mainly because according to you there is no great scheme.

The easy answer is that you do the right thing because it comes natural to most people, or because you love others and want to give them happy meaningful lives, sounds great, except that violence and anger comes naturally to a lot of people and you call that wrong, and love is just an abstract idea used to describe co-dependance and attachment. You could treat a rock respectfully and compassionately for a hundred years, but it means nothing because there is no greater reward or justice. If you are right, humans are just as meaningless as rocks.  If you are right, and we are all just pieces of meat and all we have to look forward to is 60 or 70 years of meaningless pursuits, you should be grieving, not bragging.

So put very simply, what is the point in trying to maintain any semblance of humanity if nothing comes after this life?


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Actually, I found quite a

Actually, I found quite a bit of meaning after ditching theism.

 

When I was a theist, I thought god was constantly looking over my shoulder, my life was to please him. I was worried that something I did displeased him. But then I realized he was imaginary, so now I can live life for myself and other humans. To make my and their one life worth having.

 

If you could only spend one night at an amusement park, and never go back or go to any other amusement park, wouldn't you want to make the most out of it?

 

 

 


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There are lots of reasons to care

I have a family, a grandson (who is almost 16), a community.  I live here.  I go to school here.  I enjoy my life.

My rights end when they impinge on your rights.  That simple.  I have to be careful because I don't answer for my actions to an invisible friend, I answer to myself.  And I am a lot tougher.  Yeah, one of the reasons I quit going to church - and ultimately stopped believing in invisible friends - is that my morals are a lot stricter than most christians I have met.

And then, there is this message from my philosophy professor (am I ever lucky to be attending school where he teaches! ):

 

edit: adjusted width of photo

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


amp1022
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The question is not whether

The question is not whether you have morals, but to what end? If you want to make the most out of life, why stop with limits you set for yourself? If you exist just for the enjoyment of existing, why limit yourself in anyway at all? what is the reward for those limits? It will all be forgotten and meaningless in a few thousand years. Who cares about a community that will last less than a blink of an eye in the cosmic timeline and have zero impact on anything in the long-term? My question is not why do you personally have morals, it is what is the point in any morals at all without justice or reward in the afterlife? Without an afterlife, you are free to pursue any vice without fear of consequence. Even the justice mankind deals out is so temporary it is certainly nothing to fear for a creature without a soul or spirit.

 

btw, as a christian I try hard to hold myself to a high standard of morals, but if I do mess up I know from the bible that God is quick to forgive and slow to anger. So I never worry about disappointing him. The bible says nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. (i am paraphrasing). That includes denying him or even hating him, like Paul did for years. I have morals because I have a loving God that has given me an abundance of joy and peace in my life, and although I do not feel any need to earn his love, I certainly intend to live my life as an example of his love. If you ever tried to earn his love with your morals, that was your failing right there, you were trying to purchase something he hands out freely.


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amp1022 wrote:Without an

amp1022 wrote:
Without an afterlife, you are free to pursue any vice without fear of consequence. Even the justice mankind deals out is so temporary it is certainly nothing to fear for a creature without a soul or spirit.

 

 

If I stick a butterknife in an electrical socket, I won't be feeling the consequence in the afterlife, I'll be feeling it in this one.

 

 

 


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amp1022 wrote:What is the

amp1022 wrote:

What is the point in your life without a higher power?

My life doesn't have a point other than whatever I decide it is at that moment in time. Right now my point is to have a beer and answer your questions because I am sick of sweating outside.

 

amp1022 wrote:

What is the point in arguing against a religion that you believe is just as fictional as harry potter or star wars?

Because no one has seriously suggested passing a law requiring people to study at Hogwarts, however, Christians tend to push a wide range of laws based on their fictitious beliefs. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

Why do you care if a televangelist takes an old lady's social security check?

I don't. I always find myself torn by skilled con-artists, I can't help but have respect for the skill they have to pull off a great con but I do have to wonder how they sleep at night.  I do have a rather low opinion of them because I prefer to deal with people who are honest over those who are not, but I also have a low opinion of the dupes who send them money. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

If we all are here by chance, or whatever you want to call it, then who cares what anyone does?

I don't care until it causes problems in my life or the life of someone I care about. Is there a reason why I should care?

 

amp1022 wrote:

In a million years none of us will exist, there will not even be a memory of an old lady or her money. If only the physical exists, then the past does not exist. Your memories are just information stored in the grey matter encased in your skull. Anything anyone did yesterday, good or bad, means absolutely nothing today, because even those affected by it will soon cease to exist and the memory will be deleted and there will be no reward or justice of any kind.

On the contrary, the present and our memories are all we have and hence, quite valuable. The fact that they will one day cease to exist for us makes it all the more important to enjoy them now. I always thought that if you clung to the hope of a paradise in the future, you are more likely to miss out on the greatness of life right now.

 

amp1022 wrote:

If you are right, then there is absolutely no reason to even try to behave with any kind of morality, because its completely relative. If a man feels good about forcing himself on a woman, then who can tell him that is wrong? He is just a walking, talking assemblage of meat and bone, interacting with another assemblage. Why would it matter what kind of interaction takes place?

Because the woman cares, and I as a person who cares about women cares. The man very well might feel good about it, maybe even rationalize it as moral in his head, maybe by say finding a bible verse that supports it. So what? That doesn't change that if he continues to do so he faces the real risk of getting a new hole in his head or facing punishment by a society that has decided that getting along together without rape is better than a society that tolerates it. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

If a man believes that he should murder a million people because it is right to him, then who are you to say it is immoral? It would only be immoral to you and the morals that you chose for yourself, not to him and the morals he chose.

I'm the guy who puts a bullet in his head (probably not actually me anymore, but some brave soldier sent out to kill the SOB) It is simply a question of how to organize society. Fortunately, most people agree that a society that does not allow mass murders to run about is more agreeable to live in than one that does. 

 

amp1022 wrote:
 

If I say it is wrong to be homosexual, the typical question I get is; who am I to make that judgement call?

I don't really care if you say it is wrong. When you pass a law against it I have a problem. If you can demonstrate that somehow, some person out there being gay causes you real harm I might reconsider my position, but if all you have is "I think it is immoral" that isn't enough for me to support a law. But you are free to believe whatever you want is immoral, I really don't care. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

Well I pose the same question, according to you there is no higher power or authority, so what drives you to do right?

Are you saying you would murder someone if you didn't believe in god? I have murdered, raped, pillaged, stolen and abused everyone I want to. I have zero desire to do these things. I do enjoy to drink, gamble and have sex with women I am not married to, which I am told by many such as you is immoral. So I guess I am not driven to do "right", I do what I think is best for me.

 

amp1022 wrote:
 

And furthermore what gives you the right to distinguish right from wrong? How is murdering a human any different than murdering a fly? Both are moving, thinking organisms that evolved from lesser ones, neither has a greater destiny or purpose.

Because the people have a tendency to shoot back. A society that allows people to murder one another inevitably leads to widespread violence which is undesirable for most people as it has negative economic, psychological and physical effects. At several times in history one group of people has been abused by another, I think we can say with a significant amount of certainty that when such abuse ends and the groups work together instead of fight that everyone involved lives a higher quality of life. I enjoy living a high quality of life and don't particularly care to live under constant threat, so having a court system to resolve disputes is much preferable to killing each other and having a basic agreement of 'I won't kill you if you won't kill me" is the foundation of any good social contract.

There are several people I would have no moral qualms with having killed, for example, the crazy who shot all those people in the movie theater, I wouldn't have condemned one of the police officers for shooting him execution style in the parking lot. I certainly wouldn't call the cop immoral. But, in the interest of protecting the innocent it is best to have a legal system where even the scummiest get certain rights- it is a question of having effective law that doesn't overreach, not a question of morality.  

 

amp1022 wrote:

Why is punching a person different from punching a rock, both cause a reaction in an object, both cause physical pain, and neither will have any impact on the great scheme of things, mainly because according to you there is no great scheme.

The rock will break your hand. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

The easy answer is that you do the right thing because it comes natural to most people, or because you love others and want to give them happy meaningful lives, sounds great, except that violence and anger comes naturally to a lot of people and you call that wrong, and love is just an abstract idea used to describe co-dependance and attachment.

I don't call violence and anger wrong. You can sit around being an angry bitter person punching rocks all day long. The only time I am concerned is when you perform an action that directly harms others. In general, I don't sit around calling people moral/immoral I don't see a lot of relevance in the terms. My sole concern is how you interact with others and how that might effect my interests.

 

amp1022 wrote:

You could treat a rock respectfully and compassionately for a hundred years, but it means nothing because there is no greater reward or justice. If you are right, humans are just as meaningless as rocks.  If you are right, and we are all just pieces of meat and all we have to look forward to is 60 or 70 years of meaningless pursuits, you should be grieving, not bragging.

Humans have as much meaning as you decide and that is completely your preference. Perhaps you find life more enjoyable by finding a lot of meaning in human relationships and being very social, joining clubs, volunteering, having lots of friends, whatever. Maybe you don't particularly like humans and choose to live far out in the country in a cabin with your rocks to talk to or perhaps cats or dogs. Some people put a lot of meaning in their pets, others in humans, many a combination of the two. So what? The purpose of your life is whatever you choose it to be, whatever makes you happy so that at the end of your life you can look back and say "Hey, I lived a great life wish I could do it again". How sad is it to ignore whatever pleasures you might want simply because some ancient book said you should?  

 

amp1022 wrote:

So put very simply, what is the point in trying to maintain any semblance of humanity if nothing comes after this life?

What is the point of doing so if you think that eternity comes after this life? 

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


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amp1022 wrote:I have a

amp1022 wrote:

I have a question for all atheist'. What is the point in your life without a higher power?

We all find purpose however we chose to find it.  I enjoy pursuing knowledge, helping others, and raising a son to be all he can be.

 

Quote:
What is the point in arguing against a religion that you believe is just as fictional as harry potter or star wars?

If a billion people lived their life as if Harry Potter and Star Wars were fact not fiction, and it caused them to waste much of their life on a fantasy... you wouldn't say anything?  

 

Quote:
Why do you care if a televangelist takes an old lady's social security check?

You don't?

 

Quote:
If we all are here by chance, or whatever you want to call it, then who cares what anyone does?

People already care, whether we are here by chance or not.

 

Quote:
If you are right, then there is absolutely no reason to even try to behave with any kind of morality, because its completely relative. If a man feels good about forcing himself on a woman, then who can tell him that is wrong?

The woman.  Your moral structure is awfully weak if that's how you think.

 

 

Quote:
Why would it matter what kind of interaction takes place?

Because the man can't expect to be treated any differently than he treats others.  He understands the golden rule, a moral idea that existed well before God was created by man.

 

Quote:
If a man believes that he should murder a million people because it is right to him, then who are you to say it is immoral?

Someone who wouldn't murder a million people because I recognize that I wouldn't want to be one of the million.  You realize governments form a military and police department and create laws, right?  Those laws are not based on biblical law.  

 

Quote:
It would only be immoral to you and the morals that you chose for yourself, not to him and the morals he chose.

What about to you?  If I showed you some scientific data that could prove that your god didn't exist, would you want to kill people right away?

 

Quote:
If you are right, humans are just as meaningless as rocks.  If you are right, and we are all just pieces of meat and all we have to look forward to is 60 or 70 years of meaningless pursuits, you should be grieving, not bragging.

Looks like your moral code involves making up ridiculously stupid positions for people you don't understand.  I see.  Yeah, me and a rock, we have the same meaning.  

 

Quote:
So put very simply, what is the point in trying to maintain any semblance of humanity if nothing comes after this life?

A better question is, what is the point in trying to maintain any semblance of humanity if there is an after life?  Even a rock could figure out why we'd try to "maintain humanity" if this is the only life we get.

 

By the way, your argument is called Pascals Wager, and it's been ripped apart over and over on this site.  

- Brian Sapient


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amp1022
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  Beyond Saving


 

Beyond Saving wrote:

Because the woman cares, and I as a person who cares about women cares. The man very well might feel good about it, maybe even rationalize it as moral in his head, maybe by say finding a bible verse that supports it. So what? That doesn't change that if he continues to do so he faces the real risk of getting a new hole in his head or facing punishment by a society that has decided that getting along together without rape is better than a society that tolerates it. 

 

I checked, I could only find one story in the Bible that mentions rape, the rapist was convinced to circumcise himself and he and his entire family were killed. You say you have a low opinion of a scam artist and yet you are perfectly ok with planting little falsities in your comments? Your either a hypocrite or you did not even bother to check before accusing the bible of supporting rape, which makes you entirely unreliable.

 

More importantly, you all are aware that I mentioned rape and scamming old ladies as analogies right? I was using them as examples because they are things that I have reason to hate, you just choose to hate them because of a weak stomach. How stupid would you have to be to think I was supporting these thing? These things make you uncomfortable so you call them evil, or bad, or immoral. If this life is all there is, then there can be no such thing as right or wrong. Its all just actions performed by insignificant beings. Pain and suffering only describe two of many possible feelings you can get from the actions, they are simple cause and effect and nothing more. No one has the authority to tell a rapist he is wrong.

You say you would put a bullet in the head of that kind of man if you could, why? He just did what made his short time here more enjoyable, who are you to tell him he is wrong? Where did you get the authority to dictate his actions? You didn't, you just made it up because you did not feel comfortable while that action was being performed, but in your reality, the man was well within his rights, because there is no authority higher than a human, like him.

Who is the woman to tell him he is wrong? She is just an animal that can talk, she has no spirit or soul. There is nothing about her that transcends the physical world. If you all are right, then humans are no different than animals in any way. You think having emotions sets you apart from them? Ants never sleep, they are the only animal that never sleeps, plenty of animals feel some semblance of emotion, but only ants stay awake their entire lives. That means that in the physical world, ants are far more unique than a human. Yet few people would think twice about crushing an ant to death, why is that? What makes a human more important? We are not the only flying mammals like bats, we are not even the only creative animals, I saw a horse painting a picture on T.V. just the other day. Sorry but if you are right and there is nothing after this life, then we are just another animal, and we have convinced are selves that some interaction with other animals are right, and some are wrong.

If I hit a random person in the head, then all I did was move my arm in a certain direction and made contact with another piece of matter, why should I care what his nerves tell his brain about my actions? Well I do care because I am made in the image of my creator, and he cares. He decided what is moral and immoral and gives us the choice to follow his morality or not. But to him a sin is a sin, The reason actions are immoral is because they are disobedience to the ultimate authority. Murder and stealing are equally sinful, because its not the physical action that is sinful, its the disobedience. Lucky for us he is quick to forgive, if you don't believe that, you should study the Bible more closely, it is all about forgiveness. In fact it ends with God finding a way to offer forgiveness out freely to everyone no matter what their sin. He actually gave his only son to die so that we could spend eternity with him. What is the downside of this view? I have no idea, you can live your life freely, with peace and joy, then be rewarded with eternity. It explains morality, existence, and gives us something to look forward to after we finish our lives here. You all can't even seem to understand the question, let alone give me an answer that explains the purpose of your "morality" or whatever you want to call it.

 

NO! I do not support rape or scam artists or any other evil act. I actually serve in the U.S. army to fight against just that kind of thing, so please don't accuse me of promoting those things just because I used them for examples.

 

 


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Sapient wrote:Someone who

Sapient wrote:

Someone who wouldn't murder a million people because I recognize that I wouldn't want to be one of the million.  You realize governments form a military and police department and create laws, right?  Those laws are not based on biblical law. 

Though shalt not kill is not a biblical law? Could have sworn I read that in the bible somewhere...

 


ex-minister
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amp1022 wrote:The question

amp1022 wrote:

The question is not whether you have morals, but to what end? If you want to make the most out of life, why stop with limits you set for yourself? If you exist just for the enjoyment of existing, why limit yourself in anyway at all? what is the reward for those limits? It will all be forgotten and meaningless in a few thousand years. Who cares about a community that will last less than a blink of an eye in the cosmic timeline and have zero impact on anything in the long-term? My question is not why do you personally have morals, it is what is the point in any morals at all without justice or reward in the afterlife? Without an afterlife, you are free to pursue any vice without fear of consequence. Even the justice mankind deals out is so temporary it is certainly nothing to fear for a creature without a soul or spirit.

 

btw, as a christian I try hard to hold myself to a high standard of morals, but if I do mess up I know from the bible that God is quick to forgive and slow to anger. So I never worry about disappointing him. The bible says nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. (i am paraphrasing). That includes denying him or even hating him, like Paul did for years. I have morals because I have a loving God that has given me an abundance of joy and peace in my life, and although I do not feel any need to earn his love, I certainly intend to live my life as an example of his love. If you ever tried to earn his love with your morals, that was your failing right there, you were trying to purchase something he hands out freely.

It is a christian fantasy to think an atheist feels a need to run out and "sin". Maybe they are just jealous of such freedom. Mystery revealed...Look we aren't that way at all. Frankly it just is too taxing. A christian gets all bent out of shape because he has a lustful thought and must resist the flesh asking for forgiveness and beg Jesus to remove such thoughts. I look at a hot woman and think wow what a great ass and smile. I enjoy the pleasure as is and don't muck it up by thinking I am bad. Evolution built me this way. And also it gave me women relatives, mom, sisters, daughters and I have respect and empathy for them. I don't want to violate their space or make them uncomfortable. By my brain is free to think what it wants. Christ was about mind control-even if you think a thought you have already committed. Bull-Hockey. He was marketing and needed to convince you were bad so he could sell you his goods.

How do I know this? Born and raised christian. Former minister. I get what it is like. I deeply feared becoming a non-christian believing the lies that I would become truly evil w/o Jesus. You know the lies you have been taught. Didn't happen. I am a better person today, open and honest. I really don't care what happens after I die, but I see no reason to tear down or rip up. It is simply too exhausting and I want the world to go on and be a good place for others. Sharing is a trait that is worthy and I believe humans in the past who did that were the ones who lived long enough to have kids and passed that gene on to me.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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amp1022 wrote:The question

amp1022 wrote:

The question is not whether you have morals, but to what end?

 

If I behave with kindness toward other humans, I don't do it so I can get a reward in the afterlife like you do.  

As a Christian you perform every good deed with the hope and expectation of being rewarded.  You're a mercenary waiting for your bag of heavenly gold.  Good deeds are simply a means to an end in your belief system.

amp1022 wrote:
If you want to make the most out of life, why stop with limits you set for yourself?

 

 Because I am able to see the benefits of self control.  I don't need a God to figure that out.

 

amp1022 wrote:
If you exist just for the enjoyment of existing, ...

 

  I do not enjoy existing.

 

amp1022 wrote:
...why limit yourself in anyway at all? what is the reward for those limits?

 

   Are you truly unable to reason your way through this question ? 

 

amp1022 wrote:
It will all be forgotten and meaningless in a few thousand years. Who cares about a community that will last less than a blink of an eye in the cosmic timeline and have zero impact on anything in the long-term?

 

    I don't care.  Why worry about the unchangeable past anyway ?

 

amp1022 wrote:
My question is not why do you personally have morals, it is what is the point in any morals at all without justice or reward in the afterlife?

 

   You are like a little child who only obeys their parents so they can get a new toy.   You won't do anything without the promise of being rewarded.  You are beginning to disgust me.

 

amp1022 wrote:
Without an afterlife, you are free to pursue any vice without fear of consequence. Even the justice mankind deals out is so temporary it is certainly nothing to fear for a creature without a soul or spirit.

 

   What's amazing is that atheists choose to be moral for the sake of being moral.   They don't do it simply to avoid Hell like you do.

 

amp1022 wrote:
..btw, as a christian I try hard to hold myself to a high standard of morals, but if I do mess up I know from the bible that God is quick to forgive and slow to anger. So I never worry about disappointing him. The bible says nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. (i am paraphrasing). That includes denying him or even hating him, like Paul did for years. I have morals because I have a loving God that has given me an abundance of joy and peace in my life, and although I do not feel any need to earn his love, I certainly intend to live my life as an example of his love. If you ever tried to earn his love with your morals, that was your failing right there, you were trying to purchase something he hands out freely.

 

   You're preaching.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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Rape in the bible

 

amp1022 wrote:

I checked, I could only find one story in the Bible that mentions rape, the rapist was convinced to circumcise himself and he and his entire family were killed. You say you have a low opinion of a scam artist and yet you are perfectly ok with planting little falsities in your comments? Your either a hypocrite or you did not even bother to check before accusing the bible of supporting rape, which makes you entirely unreliable.

 

In the bible

Deu 22:28-29 wrote:

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

So a biblical law is if a guy rapes a woman who is also a virgin he must pay the woman's father about $325 US dollars and he must marry her and live with her forever. Explain how this doesn't support rape, even if in a back handed way.

 

The bible is not as moral as you might think.

 

## edit - Beyond Saving did not say there was a bible text. He said say if someone found one. You didn't interpret what he said correctly. 

Your response was what I was reacting to, not to support something Beyond Saving wasn't even saying.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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amp1022 wrote:I checked, I

amp1022 wrote:

I checked, I could only find one story in the Bible that mentions rape, the rapist was convinced to circumcise himself and he and his entire family were killed. You say you have a low opinion of a scam artist and yet you are perfectly ok with planting little falsities in your comments? Your either a hypocrite or you did not even bother to check before accusing the bible of supporting rape, which makes you entirely unreliable.

Perhaps you ought to read your bible. Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Quote:

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

What do you think happened when ancient armies took women as "plunder"? 

Try Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Quote:

When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

So take her home and try her out for a few spins as your "wife" and toss her out. Anyway, I don't really care to have a debate about what the bible says, there are those on the site here that are much more informed on it than I. My point was only that the bible can, and has been, used to justify rape.

 

amp1022 wrote:

More importantly, you all are aware that I mentioned rape and scamming old ladies as analogies right? I was using them as examples because they are things that I have reason to hate, you just choose to hate them because of a weak stomach. How stupid would you have to be to think I was supporting these thing? These things make you uncomfortable so you call them evil, or bad, or immoral. If this life is all there is, then there can be no such thing as right or wrong. Its all just actions performed by insignificant beings. Pain and suffering only describe two of many possible feelings you can get from the actions, they are simple cause and effect and nothing more. No one has the authority to tell a rapist he is wrong.

I didn't mean to imply that you did support them. But if you were convinced there was no god, would you change your mind? I doubt you would. So to understand us, you simply have to imagine what you would be like if it was proven to you there is no god. Authority? Authority among humans comes almost entirely from the governments we establish which come in a wide variety of forms. It is generally accepted that government has the authority to tell rapists they are wrong and exact punishment.

 

amp1022 wrote:

You say you would put a bullet in the head of that kind of man if you could, why? He just did what made his short time here more enjoyable, who are you to tell him he is wrong? Where did you get the authority to dictate his actions? You didn't, you just made it up because you did not feel comfortable while that action was being performed, but in your reality, the man was well within his rights, because there is no authority higher than a human, like him.

I didn't "get" the authority from anywhere, in this case I would be taking it. People have no rights except those that are established in whatever systems are set up to govern them which are sometimes voluntary and sometimes involuntarily established through force. My personal political views are that it is more pleasant to live under a voluntary system. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

Who is the woman to tell him he is wrong? She is just an animal that can talk, she has no spirit or soul. There is nothing about her that transcends the physical world. If you all are right, then humans are no different than animals in any way. You think having emotions sets you apart from them? Ants never sleep, they are the only animal that never sleeps, plenty of animals feel some semblance of emotion, but only ants stay awake their entire lives. That means that in the physical world, ants are far more unique than a human. Yet few people would think twice about crushing an ant to death, why is that? What makes a human more important? We are not the only flying mammals like bats, we are not even the only creative animals, I saw a horse painting a picture on T.V. just the other day. Sorry but if you are right and there is nothing after this life, then we are just another animal, and we have convinced are selves that some interaction with other animals are right, and some are wrong.

You ignored my post didn't you. The purpose of us being nice and getting along is that as a cooperative society we can produce more comforts for everyone. By being nice and trading my production for your production we are both richer than if we stole from each other. Cooperating with other species of animals is generally less fruitful since they are incapable of understanding laws and obeying them, let alone providing input on them. In most cases, it is far more necessary/beneficial for us to get along with humans while it is completely unnecessary to get along with animals. Although, I know many people who prefer dogs or cats to humans. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

If I hit a random person in the head, then all I did was move my arm in a certain direction and made contact with another piece of matter, why should I care what his nerves tell his brain about my actions?

I wouldn't say that you have to care, although your action is going to cause others to treat you differently. If you are known for randomly hitting people in the head, people are probably going to want something done to stop you because in general people don't like being hit on the head or being in fear of getting hit in the head. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

Well I do care because I am made in the image of my creator, and he cares. He decided what is moral and immoral and gives us the choice to follow his morality or not. But to him a sin is a sin, The reason actions are immoral is because they are disobedience to the ultimate authority. Murder and stealing are equally sinful, because its not the physical action that is sinful, its the disobedience. Lucky for us he is quick to forgive, if you don't believe that, you should study the Bible more closely, it is all about forgiveness. In fact it ends with God finding a way to offer forgiveness out freely to everyone no matter what their sin. He actually gave his only son to die so that we could spend eternity with him.

So if there was no god, would you stop caring? 

 

amp1022 wrote:

What is the downside of this view?

For starters it is completely imaginary. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

I have no idea, you can live your life freely, with peace and joy, then be rewarded with eternity. It explains morality, existence, and gives us something to look forward to after we finish our lives here. You all can't even seem to understand the question, let alone give me an answer that explains the purpose of your "morality" or whatever you want to call it.

My morality doesn't have a purpose. I am a hedonist, I do what I enjoy doing and avoid doing things that I dislike. I do my best to avoid doing anything to harm or control others because it really pisses me off when they harm or control me. Not everyone here agrees with me. Everyone has slightly different notions of morality, yet we manage to get along just the same.  

 

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


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amp1022 wrote:The question

amp1022 wrote:

The question is not whether you have morals, but to what end? If you want to make the most out of life, why stop with limits you set for yourself? If you exist just for the enjoyment of existing, why limit yourself in anyway at all? what is the reward for those limits? It will all be forgotten and meaningless in a few thousand years. Who cares about a community that will last less than a blink of an eye in the cosmic timeline and have zero impact on anything in the long-term? My question is not why do you personally have morals, it is what is the point in any morals at all without justice or reward in the afterlife? Without an afterlife, you are free to pursue any vice without fear of consequence. Even the justice mankind deals out is so temporary it is certainly nothing to fear for a creature without a soul or spirit.

 

btw, as a christian I try hard to hold myself to a high standard of morals, but if I do mess up I know from the bible that God is quick to forgive and slow to anger. So I never worry about disappointing him. The bible says nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. (i am paraphrasing). That includes denying him or even hating him, like Paul did for years. I have morals because I have a loving God that has given me an abundance of joy and peace in my life, and although I do not feel any need to earn his love, I certainly intend to live my life as an example of his love. If you ever tried to earn his love with your morals, that was your failing right there, you were trying to purchase something he hands out freely.

 

Christian morals - don't kill unless it is in self-defense or national defense then kill all you want.  Mind you, I don't personally object to killing in those circumstances, but the bible doesn't mention them.  And know plenty of christians who are will to say that isn't killing.  Plenty of other examples of lousy christian morals, and I'll list some more if you insist.

My sister went through a painful period.  Her husband of 29 years slept with another woman in my sister's own house.  Then he divorced her and married the other woman.  They are Jehovah Witness and her husband was an "elder" in the church.  Well, he was tossed out until he came back, said he was sorry, repentant, asked god/s/dess for forgiveness, and they took him back as an "elder."  Which is what would have driven me from the church (my sister still goes as she is slow on the uptake).  I mean, here is this jerk who only whined to his imaginary friend and he was back in where he started.  My sister was left out in the cold - no compensation, no recompense, no apology to her.  A simple apology to my sister for her pain and sorrow was not required, after all, she was only a woman and her feelings don't count.  Maybe your church and/or religion is not that stupid, but I wouldn't bet on it.

If you screw someone's life up, you should be required to fix what you messed up.  But in christianity, all you have to do is ask the big guy for forgiveness and off you go.  Rob a store and shot the clerk dead?  Ask for forgiveness and you can go to heaven, no need to help the family you devastated. 

As for my morals, I'm closely aligned with Epicurus.  Live in moderation to avoid the most pain.  Because both ascetism and excess are painful.  Killing other people, stealing from other people, hurting other people and so on will eventually cause you pain.  Gluttony, alcoholism, addictions and so on will also eventually cause pain.  So stop already, and live a gentle life, full of good things but not too full.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicureanism wrote:

Epicurus believed that pleasure is the greatest good. But the way to attain pleasure was to live modestly and to gain knowledge of the workings of the world and the limits of one's desires. This led one to attain a state of tranquility (ataraxia) and freedom from fear, as well as absence of bodily pain (aponia). The combination of these two states is supposed to constitute happiness in its highest form. Although Epicureanism is a form of hedonism, insofar as it declares pleasure to be the sole intrinsic good, its conception of absence of pain as the greatest pleasure and its advocacy of a simple life make it different from "hedonism" as it is commonly understood.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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There are atheist in foxholes

amp1022 wrote:

Who is the woman to tell him he is wrong? She is just an animal that can talk, she has no spirit or soul. There is nothing about her that transcends the physical world. If you all are right, then humans are no different than animals in any way. You think having emotions sets you apart from them? Ants never sleep, they are the only animal that never sleeps, plenty of animals feel some semblance of emotion, but only ants stay awake their entire lives. That means that in the physical world, ants are far more unique than a human. Yet few people would think twice about crushing an ant to death, why is that? What makes a human more important? We are not the only flying mammals like bats, we are not even the only creative animals, I saw a horse painting a picture on T.V. just the other day. Sorry but if you are right and there is nothing after this life, then we are just another animal, and we have convinced are selves that some interaction with other animals are right, and some are wrong.

If I hit a random person in the head, then all I did was move my arm in a certain direction and made contact with another piece of matter, why should I care what his nerves tell his brain about my actions? Well I do care because I am made in the image of my creator, and he cares. He decided what is moral and immoral and gives us the choice to follow his morality or not. But to him a sin is a sin, The reason actions are immoral is because they are disobedience to the ultimate authority. Murder and stealing are equally sinful, because its not the physical action that is sinful, its the disobedience. Lucky for us he is quick to forgive, if you don't believe that, you should study the Bible more closely, it is all about forgiveness. In fact it ends with God finding a way to offer forgiveness out freely to everyone no matter what their sin. He actually gave his only son to die so that we could spend eternity with him. What is the downside of this view? I have no idea, you can live your life freely, with peace and joy, then be rewarded with eternity. It explains morality, existence, and gives us something to look forward to after we finish our lives here. You all can't even seem to understand the question, let alone give me an answer that explains the purpose of your "morality" or whatever you want to call it.

 

NO! I do not support rape or scam artists or any other evil act. I actually serve in the U.S. army to fight against just that kind of thing, so please don't accuse me of promoting those things just because I used them for examples.

 

 

Animals feel pain and suffering as well. They should not be abused and slaughtered for sport.

I think you came here without wanting to hear an answer to your question. Looks like you are reacting all over the place because we aren't falling in line. And the last bit above just shows you came to preach under the premise of asking an open question.

 

Thank you for your service.

But you are not alone. there are atheists who are fighting along side you. What motivates them to give the ONE and ONLY life for their country? You at least think you will have an eternal reward.

 

http://www.militaryatheists.org/expaif.html

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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amp1022 wrote: Sapient

amp1022 wrote:

Sapient wrote:

Someone who wouldn't murder a million people because I recognize that I wouldn't want to be one of the million.  You realize governments form a military and police department and create laws, right?  Those laws are not based on biblical law. 

Though shalt not kill is not a biblical law? Could have sworn I read that in the bible somewhere...

 

There are several things that are weak about your response...

1.  Biblical law was derived from society that had constructed understandings/rules/laws before the bible was written.

2. Though shalt not kill is in other holy books as well.  Does that mean those are true?

3. Read Leviticus 15:29.  That's another law in the bible, and we don't follow it.  There are hundreds of laws in the bible that our society laughs at.  As I said, out laws are NOT based on biblical law.  

Biblical laws are based on our laws.

 

- Brian Sapient


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amp1022 wrote:If you are

amp1022 wrote:

If you are right, then there is absolutely no reason to even try to behave with any kind of morality, because its completely relative. If a man feels good about forcing himself on a woman, then who can tell him that is wrong? He is just a walking, talking assemblage of meat and bone, interacting with another assemblage. Why would it matter what kind of interaction takes place? If a man believes that he should murder a million people because it is right to him, then who are you to say it is immoral? It would only be immoral to you and the morals that you chose for yourself, not to him and the morals he chose.

I don't believe everything is relative or see any reason I should. How exactly do you come to that conclusion? Even if the king of the universe or whatever it is you worship thinks that something is wrong morally that wouldn't necessarily make it so anyway.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Quote:senseless drivel about

Quote:

senseless drivel about how it is wrong to think for your self and then...

So put very simply, what is the point in trying to maintain any semblance of humanity if nothing comes after this life?

 

It's rather ironic that that you should mention humanity.  Our values are humanistic, we dedicate ourselves to our fellow humans because subjectively, there is no higher moral frame of reference.  

So put very simply, what is the point in trying to maintain any resemblance of humanity if your have the morals of an ant drone?  What is humanistic about blindly following rules without thinking for yourself?  Not to mention that you're following said rules based on false and contradicting information...

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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cj wrote:Christian morals -

cj wrote:

Christian morals - don't kill unless it is in self-defense or national defense then kill all you want.  Mind you, I don't personally object to killing in those circumstances, but the bible doesn't mention them.  And know plenty of christians who are will to say that isn't killing.  Plenty of other examples of lousy christian morals, and I'll list some more if you insist.

My sister went through a painful period.  Her husband of 29 years slept with another woman in my sister's own house.  Then he divorced her and married the other woman.  They are Jehovah Witness and her husband was an "elder" in the church.  Well, he was tossed out until he came back, said he was sorry, repentant, asked god/s/dess for forgiveness, and they took him back as an "elder."  Which is what would have driven me from the church (my sister still goes as she is slow on the uptake).  I mean, here is this jerk who only whined to his imaginary friend and he was back in where he started.  My sister was left out in the cold - no compensation, no recompense, no apology to her.  A simple apology to my sister for her pain and sorrow was not required, after all, she was only a woman and her feelings don't count.  Maybe your church and/or religion is not that stupid, but I wouldn't bet on it.

If you screw someone's life up, you should be required to fix what you messed up.  But in christianity, all you have to do is ask the big guy for forgiveness and off you go.  Rob a store and shot the clerk dead?  Ask for forgiveness and you can go to heaven, no need to help the family you devastated. 

As for my morals, I'm closely aligned with Epicurus.  Live in moderation to avoid the most pain.  Because both ascetism and excess are painful.  Killing other people, stealing from other people, hurting other people and so on will eventually cause you pain.  Gluttony, alcoholism, addictions and so on will also eventually cause pain.  So stop already, and live a gentle life, full of good things but not too full.

I would not call Jehovah witnesses christian by a long shot. Hardly even similar, do some research. Why would you bet that my church is as bad as theirs?

32% of all charitable donations in 2012, or $95.88 billion, went to religious organizations. The next largest sector was education with $38.87 billion.

Clearly we Christians are evil heartless monsters. I am giving a washer and dryer (free) to a couple who had a flood at their house. My wife is an amateur photographer so we took family photos of everyone at the church and handed them out for free. (many of them are out of work with the current economy). We have a homeless guy who shows up every day just after service because he knows we serve coffee and doughnuts, we welcome him and give him the leftovers to take with him when he leaves. So where is all the hate and unforgiveness? I have been in church all twenty nine years of my life except for four years in my high teen and low twenties, the only time of my life I would consider unhappy. I have yet to come across one of these evil judgmental churches I am always hearing about from atheist'.

By the way, where in the Bible does it say there are no consequences for our actions? When David sinned with Bathsheba, he had to pay a high price, even though it would not be held against him in heaven. Try not to exaggerate so much, I am sure you know that most Christians are not really judgemental animals like you tried (and failed) to paint them.

Back to the topic, you all have morals, I get it, good for you. You chose certain actions and called them good, and others you call bad, and in the end you gain nothing. Anything you store up will be used up eventually, any good you do will be forgotten, all bad will also be forgotten, all just useless actions on a meaningless rock orbiting a big ball of fire.

God is real, and you will have to answer to him, but even if you don't believe that, your life is wasted. You accomplish nothing because you believe there is nothing greater than physical actions. I am not actually saying your individual lives are worthless of course, I certainly hope to see each and every one of you in heaven, I am just saying that without God, there is only the physical, which comes and gos and amounts to nothing. You love someone, so? What does that mean? You perform actions that make them respond positively, and that accomplishes what?

I absolutely do this for the reward (God, not heaven), don't you? Your reward is momentary pleasure that is gone almost as soon as it begins. Wow... not impressed. I think I will be a little more responsible and plan for my future. I see no use in living strictly for what I can get out of a mere 60 or 70 years.

And for all you that claim to have been raised up Christian then became Atheist. Christ means "anointed one" the ian at the end of it is kinda like saying mini or little one, so a Christian is a little anointed one. If you were ever a Christian, you are always a Christian, you do not have the option of changing your mind.

 

Romans 8:38-39

New International Version (NIV)

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

If you can honestly say that you are not a Christian, then you never were.

 


ex-minister
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amp1022 wrote: By the way,

amp1022 wrote:

By the way, where in the Bible does it say there are no consequences for our actions? When David sinned with Bathsheba, he had to pay a high price, even though it would not be held against him in heaven. Try not to exaggerate so much, I am sure you know that most Christians are not really judgemental animals like you tried (and failed) to paint them.

And what was the high price David paid? His innocent baby was killed by God. How is that moral?

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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amp1022 wrote:I would not

amp1022 wrote:

I would not call Jehovah witnesses christian by a long shot. Hardly even similar, do some research. Why would you bet that my church is as bad as theirs?

That is called the No True Scotsman Fallacy that you have just demonstrated there. Are you familiar with that one ?

amp1022 wrote:

32% of all charitable donations in 2012, or $95.88 billion, went to religious organizations.

And what was that money spent on might I ask ?

amp1022 wrote:

Clearly we Christians are evil heartless monsters. I am giving a washer and dryer (free) to a couple who had a flood at their house. My wife is an amateur photographer so we took family photos of everyone at the church and handed them out for free. (many of them are out of work with the current economy). We have a homeless guy who shows up every day just after service because he knows we serve coffee and doughnuts, we welcome him and give him the leftovers to take with him when he leaves. So where is all the hate and unforgiveness? I have been in church all twenty nine years of my life except for four years in my high teen and low twenties, the only time of my life I would consider unhappy. I have yet to come across one of these evil judgmental churches I am always hearing about from atheist'.

Would you extend all of this "charity" to someone who was an open Atheist or openly gay or living with a women outside of marriage ? You would ? I'd be willing to be that you would be sneaking some "witnessing" in on that one.

amp1022 wrote:

By the way, where in the Bible does it say there are no consequences for our actions? When David sinned with Bathsheba, he had to pay a high price, even though it would not be held against him in heaven. Try not to exaggerate so much, I am sure you know that most Christians are not really judgemental animals like you tried (and failed) to paint them.

Even though it would not be held against him in Heaven ? So, a buddhist or a hindu (which I believe in neither religion) who has lived a good life, will go to hell, but a murderer can repent on death row and see heaven right ? Or an Atheist child, that was born and raised in an Atheist home and did good deeds can not go to heaven, but a serial rapist can repent and can see heaven right ? Rather perverse god that you have got there.

And yes, the majority of the church I grew up in was VERY judgemental.

amp1002 wrote:

Back to the topic, you all have morals, I get it, good for you. You chose certain actions and called them good, and others you call bad, and in the end you gain nothing. Anything you store up will be used up eventually, any good you do will be forgotten, all bad will also be forgotten, all just useless actions on a meaningless rock orbiting a big ball of fire.

It's called reality. Get used to it.

amp1022 wrote:

God is real, and you will have to answer to him,

Prove it.

 

amp1022 wrote:

You love someone, so? What does that mean? You perform actions that make them respond positively, and that accomplishes what?

Since when is loving the people that you care about supposed to accomplish anything ? Guess you've never heard of terms like live in the moment and cherish every day ? Nope. It has to be some sort of "eternal" reward for it, right ?

amp1022 wrote:

I absolutely do this for the reward (God, not heaven), don't you? Your reward is momentary pleasure that is gone almost as soon as it begins. Wow... not impressed. I think I will be a little more responsible and plan for my future. I see no use in living strictly for what I can get out of a mere 60 or 70 years.

Which smacks of total narcissim. You do everything for a "greater purpose" and do not believe in intrinsic goodness. You see life as useless without some type of god. Am I making an assertion ? Yep. You've made a few, so what is good for the goose is good for the gander. How does that feel ?

amp1022 wrote:

And for all you that claim to have been raised up Christian then became Atheist. Christ means "anointed one" the ian at the end of it is kinda like saying mini or little one, so a Christian is a little anointed one. If you were ever a Christian, you are always a Christian, you do not have the option of changing your mind.

If you can honestly say that you are not a Christian, then you never were.

No True Scotsman Fallacy again. I grew up in an ultra-religious home, read the Bible daily, attended church services regularly, volunteered 99% of my spare time to the church. I no longer believe in any of that. But I once did. Now you can make all the false assertions that you wish about "true" christians, but please do not confuse subjective opinions with facts.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Once saved always saved

There are many text that indicated you can fall from grace.


http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/20020922.htm

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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ex-minister wrote:There are

ex-minister wrote:
There are many text that indicated you can fall from grace.

http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/20020922.htm

 

                     Hebrews 6:4-6 describes me perfectly. 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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amp1022 wrote: And for all

amp1022 wrote:

 

And for all you that claim to have been raised up Christian then became Atheist. Christ means "anointed one" the ian at the end of it is kinda like saying mini or little one, so a Christian is a little anointed one. If you were ever a Christian, you are always a Christian, you do not have the option of changing your mind.

 

Romans 8:38-39

New International Version (NIV)

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

If you can honestly say that you are not a Christian, then you never were.

 

2 Peter 2 20:21

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Hey look, I can quote scripture too. Also, it flies directly into the face of what your quoted scripture says. Look at that! It says quite clearly that they had "known the way", aaaaand it's gone. 

Now after that more light-hearted part of my response, don't go telling me, or any other former Christian here that they weren't real Christians! For the majority of my life, I was as devout as can be. It was all real. I felt the divinity. I truly felt that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. I feared hell, and living in a world, meeting all sorts of incredible people who didn't believe what I did, I spent many a long night sometimes lamenting, and sometimes literally crying over the eventual eternal torture that would befall people who meant the world to me. 

I will respectfully hold back the (much more colourful) words that initially popped into my head when I thought of how to express myself here. 

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.


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Romans 8 says nothing can

Romans 8 says nothing can separate us from God, meaning external stuff. But many other text say the one thing that can is us. We walk away. I can't think of too many stronger messages in the bible than that. There is harassment from genesis to revelations to not fall from grace. I think he has lulled himself into thinking he is safe, but what are the odds fellow atheists we will smell his flesh frying a few cell blocks away in hell? MMMMMWWWWAAAHHHHAAAHHHAAA

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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amp1022 wrote:

I have a question for all atheist'. What is the point in your life without a higher power? I don't mean it as an insult, but as a sincere question. What is the point in arguing against a religion that you believe is just as fictional as harry potter or star wars? Why do you care if a televangelist takes an old lady's social security check? If we all are here by chance, or whatever you want to call it, then who cares what anyone does? In a million years none of us will exist, there will not even be a memory of an old lady or her money. If only the physical exists, then the past does not exist. Your memories are just information stored in the grey matter encased in your skull. Anything anyone did yesterday, good or bad, means absolutely nothing today, because even those affected by it will soon cease to exist and the memory will be deleted and there will be no reward or justice of any kind.

If you are right, then there is absolutely no reason to even try to behave with any kind of morality, because its completely relative. If a man feels good about forcing himself on a woman, then who can tell him that is wrong? He is just a walking, talking assemblage of meat and bone, interacting with another assemblage. Why would it matter what kind of interaction takes place? If a man believes that he should murder a million people because it is right to him, then who are you to say it is immoral? It would only be immoral to you and the morals that you chose for yourself, not to him and the morals he chose.

If I say it is wrong to be homosexual, the typical question I get is; who am I to make that judgement call? Well I pose the same question, according to you there is no higher power or authority, so what drives you to do right? And furthermore what gives you the right to distinguish right from wrong? How is murdering a human any different than murdering a fly? Both are moving, thinking organisms that evolved from lesser ones, neither has a greater destiny or purpose. Why is punching a person different from punching a rock, both cause a reaction in an object, both cause physical pain, and neither will have any impact on the great scheme of things, mainly because according to you there is no great scheme.

The easy answer is that you do the right thing because it comes natural to most people, or because you love others and want to give them happy meaningful lives, sounds great, except that violence and anger comes naturally to a lot of people and you call that wrong, and love is just an abstract idea used to describe co-dependance and attachment. You could treat a rock respectfully and compassionately for a hundred years, but it means nothing because there is no greater reward or justice. If you are right, humans are just as meaningless as rocks.  If you are right, and we are all just pieces of meat and all we have to look forward to is 60 or 70 years of meaningless pursuits, you should be grieving, not bragging.

So put very simply, what is the point in trying to maintain any semblance of humanity if nothing comes after this life?

 

argument is a fallacious appeal to consequence - that without god life has no meaning and that we might as well just get down to slaughtering one another. And you base this demonstrably childish fallacy on bald assertion, failing to comprehend the fundamental truth that meaning is a subjective experience unique to each of us but that humans evolved to live in groups.

You also try to establish a false dichotomy in which either one is a christian or one is prone to the 'violence and anger that comes naturally to a lot of people' this despite the fact in my country the murder rate is one in 100,000 and falling while the rate of telling white lies is probably 100,000 in 100,000. The christian claim that we're all about to go nuts and start killing and raping is gormless in the extreme. 

Then there's the foolish contention that we are all 'just pieces of meat' unless there's a god and as pieces of meat we should think nothing of raping and murdering and robbing each others' grandmothers or whatever other dreadful act takes our fancy.

But, you see, there are these things called mirror neurons and there's this thing called empathy and we all have consciences, which in the case of atheists cannot be short circuited by a quick begging session to the 'almighty' fabrication that exists only in the theist head. 

Harley made a great point earlier in this thread when he asked if there was no god whether you would stop caring. When I stopped believing I found not only had I not changed but I had realised the responsibility for my actions was entirely my own. I have never cared more. 

It's curious that you can talk to a group of humans at least your equal in sense and education and ignore their honest explanations of the ways in which their lives have more meaning without a god. This inability to listen, followed by relentless assertions about things you cannot prove, suggests a deep confirmation bias. 

If you bother to reply to me, why not start with a definition of this necessary god in one paragraph using terms that can be comprehended. Try not to weave a fabric of Aquinas-like assertions. Tell me one thing about god that can repeatedly be demonstrated to be true. Prove to me that like us, you are not simply self governed. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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amp1022 wrote: I would not

amp1022 wrote:

I would not call Jehovah witnesses christian by a long shot. Hardly even similar, do some research. Why would you bet that my church is as bad as theirs?

32% of all charitable donations in 2012, or $95.88 billion, went to religious organizations. The next largest sector was education with $38.87 billion.

Clearly we Christians are evil heartless monsters. I am giving a washer and dryer (free) to a couple who had a flood at their house. My wife is an amateur photographer so we took family photos of everyone at the church and handed them out for free. (many of them are out of work with the current economy). We have a homeless guy who shows up every day just after service because he knows we serve coffee and doughnuts, we welcome him and give him the leftovers to take with him when he leaves. So where is all the hate and unforgiveness? I have been in church all twenty nine years of my life except for four years in my high teen and low twenties, the only time of my life I would consider unhappy. I have yet to come across one of these evil judgmental churches I am always hearing about from atheist'.

 

I once knew a woman (a Marine's wife) who went to church Wed and twice on Sunday and sang "Jesus Loves You" to her babies to put them to sleep.  All of her towels, sheets, blankets, and a bunch of other stuff she took from the motels her family had stayed in while moving from base to base.  She said it wasn't stealing because if the motel didn't strap it down, they meant you to take it.  She also encouraged her older sons to help themselves to whatever they saw lying around that other people had forgot to pick up.  It wasn't stealing she said, even if her children knew the rightful owner.

I knew a good Catholic man who told me he wasn't committing adultery because his girlfriend was not married.  She was committing adultery, but that wasn't his look out.  His wife didn't know about her and he said he wasn't hurting his wife to have the girlfriend.

I am not saying you are a bad person - I am saying if you actually talked to people in your church about their morals and ethics, you might be surprised.

I can't do a thing about my sister.  She will insist on believing and being just as blind as you are.

 

amp1022 wrote:

By the way, where in the Bible does it say there are no consequences for our actions? When David sinned with Bathsheba, he had to pay a high price, even though it would not be held against him in heaven. Try not to exaggerate so much, I am sure you know that most Christians are not really judgemental animals like you tried (and failed) to paint them.

 

In the old testament, there are verses about reparation for various acts against other people.  Feel free to look them up.  It's too late for me to bother.  However, I have heard many people say that the OT is no longer what a christian follows, they follow the new testament.  Fine.  There is nothing in the NT about reparation for any act.  You can hunt around the internet I am sure and find someone who should compensate their victims but refuses to do so since they "have been washed in the blood of the lamb."  Sigh -- one of the churches I attended when I was younger was Foursquare Gospel which is real close to Holy Roller.  Most penecostals that I have met subscribe to this belief.

 

amp1022 wrote:

Back to the topic, you all have morals, I get it, good for you. You chose certain actions and called them good, and others you call bad, and in the end you gain nothing. Anything you store up will be used up eventually, any good you do will be forgotten, all bad will also be forgotten, all just useless actions on a meaningless rock orbiting a big ball of fire.

 

You honestly believe it will be different for you? 

What will be left when I die will be the same as when you die - if we have done our job well, our descendants will flourish and the corner of the world we lived in will be at least slightly better after we have left because we tried our best to make it so.  There is no better legacy for any person.

 

amp1022 wrote:

God is real, and you will have to answer to him, but even if you don't believe that, your life is wasted. You accomplish nothing because you believe there is nothing greater than physical actions. I am not actually saying your individual lives are worthless of course, I certainly hope to see each and every one of you in heaven, I am just saying that without God, there is only the physical, which comes and gos and amounts to nothing. You love someone, so? What does that mean? You perform actions that make them respond positively, and that accomplishes what?

 

If - IF - I meet the so-called loving god when I die, I will do my best to kick the SOB where it hurts and DEMAND to be sent to hell.  I don't have to answer to him/her/it/them - s/he/it/they have to answer to ME.  For all the pain s/he/it/they could have prevented but didn't.  For all the children that are raped and then strangled to death.  For all the children beaten, starved, neglected - for what?  I have always failed to see how beating an infant's head against a wall until they die would fulfill any kind of plan, have any kind of reason that I find acceptable.  And that SOB can jolly well explain their stinking plan to me so I can understand it and it had better be good.  I will not accept child abuse as some sort of unknownable plan that is ultimately good for humans.

For the "only physical actions" - so?  Of course it is only physical actions.  Since your god is imaginary, it is only physical actions for you as well.  So?  Love - for your information - is a measurable (blood chemistry and fMRI) physical response.  And love is a necessary part of human societies.  If we didn't love each other we would not be able to raise healthy children.  And our species would go extinct.  Is there something mystical/magical/holy about love?  Naw.  All hormones and neurotransmitters.  That said, I truly love my husband of 27 years who is as kind and gentle and talented and intelligent as anyone could hope for in a spouse.  He is also an atheist like me.

 

amp1022 wrote:

I absolutely do this for the reward (God, not heaven), don't you? Your reward is momentary pleasure that is gone almost as soon as it begins. Wow... not impressed. I think I will be a little more responsible and plan for my future. I see no use in living strictly for what I can get out of a mere 60 or 70 years.

And for all you that claim to have been raised up Christian then became Atheist. Christ means "anointed one" the ian at the end of it is kinda like saying mini or little one, so a Christian is a little anointed one. If you were ever a Christian, you are always a Christian, you do not have the option of changing your mind.

 

Romans 8:38-39

New International Version (NIV)

38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

If you can honestly say that you are not a Christian, then you never were.

 

Actually, even though I went to church a few years in my life, I think I can honestly say I never believed all of the hype.  Some of it, yes, all of it, no.  And my reward is knowing that my family loves me.  What more do I need?  The love of an imaginary friend?  I could believe in a magical unicorn that loved me.  I'd rather be with friends and family who love me.

And I see no reason why you can't change your mind about being a christian.  What do I need to do?  Deny christ three times before the cock crows?  Ten times?  Kick god/s/dess in the genitals?  Fine, I'll do it.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


ex-minister
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[quote =CJ] There is nothing

CJ wrote:
There is nothing in the new testament about reparation for any act.
I haven't heard this before and don't think it is true. There is the story of Zacchaeus in Luke 19, who commits to paying back four fold. I will look for others. I don't think amp1022 is a true Christian if he thinks otherwise. When I was a true Christian I fully believe I was responsible for what I had done wrong and no blood of jesus swept it under the rug. I did have to make things right as I could. I had stolen plywood from a company I worked for in the past. I went back and told them, confessed, and asked how much it cost. They allowed me to write them a check.

I still as an atheist feel it is just as important to live my life that way and have taught my children so in word and deed even in the simplest of things. My wife even makes fun of me because of my stringent honesty.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Here is a NT text that

Here is a NT text that indicates restitution is required.

james 5 wrote:

1 the misery that is coming upon you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, the misery that is coming upon you. and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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The Golden Rule is a chemical

We all have it and that's why even atheists are generally nice.

Some religious people try to undermine it with their beliefs.

http://www.theage.com.au/technology/sci-tech/the-hormone-that-makes-us-good-or-evil-20120905-25eyx.html

 

 


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What is the point ?Why do

What is the point ?

Why do people have kids, seems kinda stupid knowing they grow old and die, right?(note sarcasm) Why would you have a kid knowing they will die someday?

Why do you go to movies knowing the movie is going to end. Why do people go to sporting events knowing they will end? Why do people go to music concerts knowing they will end? Why do people read books knowing there is a last page?

We don't need magical answers to have kids. We don't need magical answers to go to sporting events. The outcome of life, both good and bad, does not prevent us from making the attempt to get through both the good and bad, and our lives have ups and downs. No need for fantastic magical claims to do the mundane or find joy even though life is not always peaches and cream.

Just because we don't buy ANY sky daddy claim in human history, not just yours, but all, does not mean life is meaningless now while we are alive. But life after we die will be as meaningful to us as it was before we were born 1 billion years ago.

Our species will go extinct, our planet and sun also will die and the universe will continue on without any record of our existence. If you want to dwell on things you cant change and make up superstitious answers, we cant stop you. But facing reality as it is, and not the way we wish it would be, is neither depressing to us, or negative. It would be like finding out the earth rotated around the sun and finding that depressing. How are facts depressing? I don't like taking a dump, but it is part of reality.

I find the same ups and downs as you and you ask us how? BECAUSE WE ARE HUMANS all part of the same evolution. I find joy spending time with my mother. I have co workers I love. My cat is awesome. But knowing all those people and things in my life wont last forever, doesn't stop me from making the best of the finite time I have.

How is it we can find life interesting without a god? Because we are human, and we have emotions and ups and downs just like you. The only difference is that we do not assign the reality of our existence to magic.


 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Hmmmm, lets see, for me the

Hmmmm, lets see, for me the point of my life is to pro create and to make the life of my child a better life than what I had, as well to make my community better for the future for the society I live in, that is 1 reason, I also enjoy my life and all the experience that I have had and I am trying to have, this is the only life I have so i wish to experience and do as much as possible. As for your reasoning to do anything we want and there is no reason  to behave, well I must explain to you that if the only reason you behave is a fear of god or hell, then you're a psychopath. I don't harm others because of empathy and because there is no benefit for me or my family in doing such action, on the contrary it is detrimental as such actions would 1: I would gain nothing from such actions, 2: have me taken away from my family, 3: not give a good example to my children. We as a society have made laws against harming others (such as murder, assault, sexual assault) because it is detrimental to society, those morals that we as a society have chosen to follow has proven to be beneficial, no god required as many other societies have shown to have the same moral decisions against, murder, assault and rape that are not christian nations.

If the only reason you don't do any of the above is because you want to be in god's good grace instead of being a good person, then so be it, however it does not change the fact the most humans have empathy, we can reason and for the most part see the benefit of living in peace with each other and helping each other out vs beating the crap out of each other, I know this is a hard thing for you to comprehend, seeing your post so far it just seems  you are not a good person to be a good person but because you want a reward of heaven or god, which is pretty much a selfish reason.

We as human act as human, and we as human can reason as to why good actions are better than bad actions, or following to good moral attitudes benefits us as a whole than using bad moral attitudes. Even if nothing comes from after this life, I would like to make sure that my child has a future better than the present that we live in all the better, if I can teach her to be a good person, she benefits from it in the long run, if you cannot see this, then I cannot help you, you are blinded by ignorance or religion, either way it is my reason, you don't have to agree with it, I personally don't care until that is your religion tries to enforce their views on society, you can believe all you want, without any proof that god exists, you have nothing but blind ignorant faith.


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x wrote:We all have it and

x wrote:

We all have it and that's why even atheist are generally nice

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hFalUhQelIATpBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1a3JpaHZpBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA0OV8xNTQ-/...

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hFalUhQelIATpBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1a3JpaHZpBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA0OV8xNTQ-/...

just a couple of the hundreds of "nice" reactions atheist' have had toward my beliefs. Ads like this could not be more anti-american, it makes the hate in your minds so obvious. As a soldier in the U.S. army I find atheist' groups behavior disgusting lately. I am mocked daily for my beliefs and listen to a constant flow of insults to the beliefs I hold most dearly, that is nice? Go to the middle east where that kind of behavior belongs.

Brian37 wrote:

How is it we can find life interesting without a god? Because we are human, and we have emotions and ups and downs just like you. The only difference is that we do not assign the reality of our existence to magic.


I am not trying to insult your intelligence, honestly. But you are only repeating my question as a statement. Emotions, ups and downs, and…?  What? To what end, it all means nothing. How is it different than a dog enjoying a bone or a fish eating a worm. They enjoy it and it means nothing. I understand that this does not prove the existence of God, that was never my intention. I guess I just wonder what is the point of promoting disbelief? Christians have a very specific and real reason to want to evangelize, because we fear for peoples eternal souls, but what good does it do you to convince others that there is no God? And please don't say you do not care what others believe, you are on a site set up for atheist' to debate their views. Everyone here keeps telling me that I can't enjoy life without some magic invisible friend or whatever you call God, but if God is real, how would it benefit me to take the side against him? If he is real, then he is going to get his way and no amount of whining will change that. Why fight someone that can not lose? Especially when he considers winning to be giving his servants eternal life in paradise.




I still stand by what I said before. If you say you are not a Christian now then you never were. Plenty of people know about God and even believe it, but are not Christians. You can say you were raised in a Christian home (which means nothing) or that you went to church and did good deeds (all meaningless, you can not earn grace) or that you really truly believed, but clearly you were not all that filled with steadfast faith, as you completely rejected and betrayed your own creator. You may have been a believer, but you were never a Christian.

 
The No true scotsman fallacy does not really apply here, I am not saying you were not a true christian, I am say you were not a Christian at all. I am not saying that you have to meet my standard to be considered a Christian, I am saying you either are or you aren't. I am saying that if you are capable of turning your back on God, you never really loved him to begin with. Would you betray your children? Or your spouses? Probably not, but if you did, then you could not claim that you ever really loved them to begin with. Conditional love is an oxymoron.
 


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ex-minister wrote:amp1022

ex-minister wrote:

amp1022 wrote:

The question is not whether you have morals, but to what end? If you want to make the most out of life, why stop with limits you set for yourself? If you exist just for the enjoyment of existing, why limit yourself in anyway at all? what is the reward for those limits? It will all be forgotten and meaningless in a few thousand years. Who cares about a community that will last less than a blink of an eye in the cosmic timeline and have zero impact on anything in the long-term? My question is not why do you personally have morals, it is what is the point in any morals at all without justice or reward in the afterlife? Without an afterlife, you are free to pursue any vice without fear of consequence. Even the justice mankind deals out is so temporary it is certainly nothing to fear for a creature without a soul or spirit.

 

btw, as a christian I try hard to hold myself to a high standard of morals, but if I do mess up I know from the bible that God is quick to forgive and slow to anger. So I never worry about disappointing him. The bible says nothing can separate us from the love of Christ. (i am paraphrasing). That includes denying him or even hating him, like Paul did for years. I have morals because I have a loving God that has given me an abundance of joy and peace in my life, and although I do not feel any need to earn his love, I certainly intend to live my life as an example of his love. If you ever tried to earn his love with your morals, that was your failing right there, you were trying to purchase something he hands out freely.

It is a christian fantasy to think an atheist feels a need to run out and "sin". Maybe they are just jealous of such freedom. Mystery revealed...Look we aren't that way at all. Frankly it just is too taxing. A christian gets all bent out of shape because he has a lustful thought and must resist the flesh asking for forgiveness and beg Jesus to remove such thoughts. I look at a hot woman and think wow what a great ass and smile. I enjoy the pleasure as is and don't muck it up by thinking I am bad. Evolution built me this way. And also it gave me women relatives, mom, sisters, daughters and I have respect and empathy for them. I don't want to violate their space or make them uncomfortable. By my brain is free to think what it wants. Christ was about mind control-even if you think a thought you have already committed. Bull-Hockey. He was marketing and needed to convince you were bad so he could sell you his goods.

How do I know this? Born and raised christian. Former minister. I get what it is like. I deeply feared becoming a non-christian believing the lies that I would become truly evil w/o Jesus. You know the lies you have been taught. Didn't happen. I am a better person today, open and honest. I really don't care what happens after I die, but I see no reason to tear down or rip up. It is simply too exhausting and I want the world to go on and be a good place for others. Sharing is a trait that is worthy and I believe humans in the past who did that were the ones who lived long enough to have kids and passed that gene on to me.

 

So in all your years as a Christian and a minister, you never once saw a person's live improve for the positive under Christ?  If you did, how can you claim that an atheist way of living is better?   I've seen harden ex-cons give up their drugs to God, and become loving caring human beings.  You call it mind control, but God always transforms a person for the better.  

 

One of my favorite examples is the salvation of Brian Head Welch, ex-Korn guitarist.  Korn is one of the biggest rock bands in the world.  Brian was able to enjoy life's most sinful pleasures in great excesss.  Fame, money, awards,  tons of women and sex.   Yet, it didn't satisfy.  It didn't give him life.  Instead, he became suicidal and addicted to meth.   He found Christ, and quit his drug habit immediately.  Now he is making music for Jesus, touring the country and giving hope to many who can only relate to someone like him.  Are you going to tell me he would be better off as an atheist?

Being a Christian means freedom from sin and more abundant life.  Freedom from the desire to engage in harmful sinful activities.  Sure you are free to look at hot women, lust for them, and have sex with multiple partners.  But God didn't design it that way because it damages a person.  Let's just say, if you followed God's laws on sex, you wouldn't have to be sweating out waiting for your HIV test results! 

 


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amp1022 wrote:I still stand

amp1022 wrote:






I still stand by what I said before. If you say you are not a Christian now then you never were. Plenty of people know about God and even believe it, but are not Christians. You can say you were raised in a Christian home (which means nothing) or that you went to church and did good deeds (all meaningless, you can not earn grace) or that you really truly believed, but clearly you were not all that filled with steadfast faith, as you completely rejected and betrayed your own creator. You may have been a believer, but you were never a Christian.

 
The No true scotsman fallacy does not really apply here, I am not saying you were not a true christian, I am say you were not a Christian at all. I am not saying that you have to meet my standard to be considered a Christian, I am saying you either are or you aren't. I am saying that if you are capable of turning your back on God, you never really loved him to begin with. Would you betray your children? Or your spouses? Probably not, but if you did, then you could not claim that you ever really loved them to begin with. Conditional love is an oxymoron.
 

No True Scotsman Fallacy again. Just what is a "true" christian ? Besides, you just contradicted yourself by stating that one does not have to meet your standards to be a christian, then stating that going to church, good deeds and christian homes proves nothing. So your obviously stating what is and what is not a "true" christian. Just like you made the assertion that Jehovah's Witnesses were not "true" christians. They would probably say the same thing about you.

Conditional love ? What is the god of the bible but love with conditions ? You have to believe in him, praise him, thank him and grovel to him, to have his paradise. Meaning the god of the bible has love only with conditions and forgiveness with conditions.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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amp1022 wrote:just a couple

amp1022 wrote:

just a couple of the hundreds of "nice" reactions atheist' have had toward my beliefs. Ads like this could not be more anti-american, it makes the hate in your minds so obvious. As a soldier in the U.S. army I find atheist' groups behavior disgusting lately. I am mocked daily for my beliefs and listen to a constant flow of insults to the beliefs I hold most dearly, that is nice? Go to the middle east where that kind of behavior belongs.

 

The Middle East is a great example of what happens when you allow religions to control a country.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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TWD39 wrote: Being a

TWD39 wrote:

 

Being a Christian means freedom from sin and more abundant life.  Freedom from the desire to engage in harmful sinful activities.  Sure you are free to look at hot women, lust for them, and have sex with multiple partners.  But God didn't design it that way because it damages a person.  Let's just say, if you followed God's laws on sex, you wouldn't have to be sweating out waiting for your HIV test results! 

 

You mean like condoning women being forced to marry rape victims in the old testament and putting men to death for homosexuality ? You mean like the tales of incest and such ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:TWD39

harleysportster wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

 

Being a Christian means freedom from sin and more abundant life.  Freedom from the desire to engage in harmful sinful activities.  Sure you are free to look at hot women, lust for them, and have sex with multiple partners.  But God didn't design it that way because it damages a person.  Let's just say, if you followed God's laws on sex, you wouldn't have to be sweating out waiting for your HIV test results! 

 

You mean like condoning women being forced to marry rape victims in the old testament and putting men to death for homosexuality ? You mean like the tales of incest and such ?

 

The Bible does not condone rape.  That is simply your misinterpretation.  Funny how atheists refuse to accept any other interpretation except the ones that make God look bad.  Any tales of incest only demonstrate the honesty of the Bible.  It  doesn't sweep anything under the rug.  Man did some pretty rotten things back then.  The Bible reports the truth as it happen.  Doesn't mean God approved of man's action.

 


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TWD39 wrote:The Bible does

TWD39 wrote:

The Bible does not condone rape.  That is simply your misinterpretation.  Funny how atheists refuse to accept any other interpretation except the ones that make God look bad.  Any tales of incest only demonstrate the honesty of the Bible.  It  doesn't sweep anything under the rug.  Man did some pretty rotten things back then.  The Bible reports the truth as it happen.  Doesn't mean God approved of man's action.

 

Shouldn't you be answering all of those questions that you keep dodging on the other threads ? Or have you given up ? No new posts are coming out of that one. Now might be the time. Unless you have no real answers of course.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:TWD39

harleysportster wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

The Bible does not condone rape.  That is simply your misinterpretation.  Funny how atheists refuse to accept any other interpretation except the ones that make God look bad.  Any tales of incest only demonstrate the honesty of the Bible.  It  doesn't sweep anything under the rug.  Man did some pretty rotten things back then.  The Bible reports the truth as it happen.  Doesn't mean God approved of man's action.

 

Shouldn't you be answering all of those questions that you keep dodging on the other threads ? Or have you given up ? No new posts are coming out of that one. Now might be the time. Unless you have no real answers of course.

 

Welcome to the fantasy world of atheists where atheists are always 100% correct on ANY topic and they ALWAYS win the argument!  So I go back and answer one of the old posts in that thread, I get zero recognition for NOT running away, and now you pull out this classic dodge again.  I'll answer whatever I want to.  I owe you nothing.


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TWD39 wrote:Welcome to the

TWD39 wrote:

Welcome to the fantasy world of atheists where atheists are always 100% correct on ANY topic and they ALWAYS win the argument!  So I go back and answer one of the old posts in that thread, I get zero recognition for NOT running away, and now you pull out this classic dodge again.  I'll answer whatever I want to.  I owe you nothing.

Dodging the bullet again I see. Why don't you drop the sulky, petulant, little school kid act ? It has gotten to be very boring.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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TWD39 wrote: I get zero

TWD39 wrote:

 I get zero recognition for NOT running away

What do you want ? Some kind of medal ? However, if you wish to stay on board and continue acting like a little bitch. Go right ahead and keep making a fool of yourself.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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amp1022 wrote:What is the

amp1022 wrote:
What is the point in your life without a higher power?

I get to choose my point, when I don't believe in a higher power, who tells me what my point is.
I went with a montage. Learning about interesting things, having as much fun as possible, having a beneficial impact on those whom I care about, and trying to help the species advance in my own little ways.

amp1022 wrote:
What is the point in arguing against a religion that you believe is just as fictional as harry potter or star wars?

The fact is that people who believe these things try and make laws based on them, and run policy based on them. If a president of the US suddenly embraced the Jedi religion, and made all students recite the Jedi code before class in the morning, and put the Jedi code in all court rooms and government buildings, and started dealing with other nations as would befit a Jedi, would you not protest?

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amp1022 wrote:Why do you

amp1022 wrote:
Why do you care if a televangelist takes an old lady's social security check?

Because I don't want to be scammed, I don't scam other people, and I look down on people who scam others to make it harder for them to succeed.

amp1022 wrote:
f we all are here by chance, or whatever you want to call it, then who cares what anyone does?

I care. I think you'll find most people care, because it directly affects them. Most people don't want to live in a world where murder is perfectly legal, so murder is illegal in most, if not all, places.

amp1022 wrote:
n a million years none of us will exist, there will not even be a memory of an old lady or her money.

You don't know that. What if that cheque would have helped pay for her grandkids schooling, and with that schooling that kid grows up to be an influential ambassador or president or doctor or scientist or something else, instead of someone living mostly on welfare or in the street?

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And who cares if anyone

And who cares if anyone remembers it in a million years. What matters is now. I don't live my life to be remembered with a statue and a holiday. Most people who get statues just end up having words put in their mouths and being quote mined anyway.

amp1022 wrote:
Anything anyone did yesterday, good or bad, means absolutely nothing today, because even those affected by it will soon cease to exist and the memory will be deleted and there will be no reward or justice of any kind.

Except everything propagates. I be nice to you today when you're sad, and maybe you become happy. Then instead of you walking around all day being sad, infecting others with your sadness, you infect them with your happiness. And they do the same. There's no way to predict just how wide reaching such an effect can have for something as small as cheering someone up, but under the right circumstances such a small change can end in major results.

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It gets significantly more

It gets significantly more major as you step up the initial conditions. Invent something and revolutionise the world. Save someones life and you may give the opportunity of life to thousands of generations of people. Start a revolution and change the country, or the world.

Who knows what will happen to the Voyager probes which are leaving the solar system? They may fly through space for thousands of years and be discovered by another species, even if we're extinct by then.

Even if not, what's the point in having such a depressing outlook on life that you just sit at home and wait to die? It then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, where you impact noone because you're all by yourself, wilfully irrelevant to everyone.

I could, obviously, easily keep going with the rest of the OP, but I'm already at 4 posts, so I'll call it for now.

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harleysportster wrote:TWD39

harleysportster wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

 I get zero recognition for NOT running away

What do you want ? Some kind of medal ? However, if you wish to stay on board and continue acting like a little bitch. Go right ahead and keep making a fool of yourself.

 

A simple acknowledgement that you were wrong would be nice.  At the very least, stop whining that I don't respond to posts. 


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 Respond by answering the

 Respond by answering the questions in that thread please. You get no kudos for merely hanging around and bitching.

 

 


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Why do you think your god

Why do you think your god solves the problem?

How does having a "higher power" provide a point?

 

Sounds made up...
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No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.


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amp1022

amp1022 wrote:

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hFalUhQelIATpBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1a3JpaHZpBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA0OV8xNTQ-/...

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hFalUhQelIATpBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1a3JpaHZpBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA0OV8xNTQ-/...

just a couple of the hundreds of "nice" reactions atheist' have had toward my beliefs. Ads like this could not be more anti-american, it makes the hate in your minds so obvious. As a soldier in the U.S. army I find atheist' groups behavior disgusting lately. I am mocked daily for my beliefs and listen to a constant flow of insults to the beliefs I hold most dearly, that is nice? Go to the middle east where that kind of behavior belongs.

 

Seriously? That "offends" you? Ads like this couldn't possibly be more American, a hot chick holding a cross- I see no hate whatsoever and I'm anti-PETA. I'll stare at the picture a bit more and see where the "hate" is. This kind of ad would get you stoned in the Middle East for displaying too much skin. 

 

 

I have seen far more in your face offensive atheist ads. I also see a billboard almost everyday on the freeway telling me that I am going to burn in hell for eternity, I would describe that as hateful. I have had theists say very nasty things to me and many people randomly say things like "you're an atheist? But you are such a nice guy." Yeah, guess what, sometimes people are not always nice to each other and people often hold stereotypes that are inaccurate. Get over it. The great thing about our country is that we are allowed to offend each other, its called free fucking speech and that is what I went into the military to protect. I hope your fellow soldiers don't share your views, because if they do our country is in bigger trouble than I thought. 

It was morality that burned the books of the ancient sages, and morality that halted the free inquiry of the Golden Age and substituted for it the credulous imbecility of the Age of Faith. It was a fixed moral code and a fixed theology which robbed the human race of a thousand years by wasting them upon alchemy, heretic-burning, witchcraft and sacerdotalism.-H.L. Mencken


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TWD39 wrote: A simple

TWD39 wrote:

 

A simple acknowledgement that you were wrong would be nice.  At the very least, stop whining that I don't respond to posts. 

Maybe if you ever actually answered a post I would. Instead, you persist on being a little bitch.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno