85% of the National Academy of Sciences are atheist but

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85% of the National Academy of Sciences are atheist but

Neil deGrasse Tyson has an interesting point

 

 


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<- 3 wine glasses in.  I

<- 3 wine glasses in.  I love this guy.  He's a cool dude, and he speared the take Pluto's planet status away from it. 

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Wonderful

Great question.

 


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Because they

Because they compartmentalize and doublethink past their scientific skills on issues of religion. Suspending critical thinking for anything over everything else is trouble.

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You serious with this? How

You serious with this? How much of a chance would an atheist have in a group made up of 85% theists? 15% of them do not reject God because they are not sell-outs. They have enough courage to not pretend that you all have proven that the universe is the result of no ingredients mixing with nothing, stirred up by no one, and baked at 0 degrees. Oh wait, I forgot, the magical anti-matter did it, you know the antimatter that existed...but didn't...but did...but didn't.. Oh no wait it was the giant atom floating around in space for all eternity. The magical atom that does not need an origin, exploded to create perfect order in thousands of solar systems. Ya clearly you guys are the logical ones, something exists because nothing created it, that is science man. Us poor stupid theists with are stupid ideas about complex systems being built rather than popping into existence. Do you know that my computer started out as a calculator? I dropped it one day and a truck ran it over, lucky for me it exploded into a computer. You believe me right? Happens all the time right? Doesn't everyone have a story about a complex system poofing into existence right in front of them?

Just out of curiosity how many times has anyone observed that in a lab? There are millions of claims about people witnessing miracles, if even one of them is true, then God is real. But not even one single time in all of history can a person claim to have seen a complex system of any kind come into existence without an outside influence. Even if they made it happen in a lab, they only proved our point, they had to create an environment where it was possible for a system to be assembled. The ingredients had to be provided. Please don't try to pretend that it has ever happened, don't be that guy.

 

I will never have enough faith to be an atheist.


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amp1022 wrote:You serious

amp1022 wrote:

You serious with this? How much of a chance would an atheist have in a group made up of 85% theists?

We deal with a predominant culture of religious people everyday and it has not stopped us one bit.

amp1022 wrote:

15% of them do not reject God because they are not sell-outs. They have enough courage to not pretend that you all have proven that the universe is the result of no ingredients mixing with nothing, stirred up by no one, and baked at 0 degrees. Oh wait, I forgot, the magical anti-matter did it, you know the antimatter that existed...but didn't...but did...but didn't.. Oh no wait it was the giant atom floating around in space for all eternity. The magical atom that does not need an origin, exploded to create perfect order in thousands of solar systems. Ya clearly you guys are the logical ones, something exists because nothing created it, that is science man. Us poor stupid theists with are stupid ideas about complex systems being built rather than popping into existence. Do you know that my computer started out as a calculator? I dropped it one day and a truck ran it over, lucky for me it exploded into a computer. You believe me right? Happens all the time right? Doesn't everyone have a story about a complex system poofing into existence right in front of them?

You have just made some baseless assertions, strawman arguments and argument from incredulity fallacy. You do know about those right ?

amp1022 wrote:

Just out of curiosity how many times has anyone observed that in a lab? There are millions of claims about people witnessing miracles, if even one of them is true, then God is real.

Talk about making a huge giant illogical leap, albeit a very obtuse one as well.

 

amp1022 wrote:

I will never have enough faith to be an atheist.

A lot of people call it a "god delusion" with good reason, judging by your posts.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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amp1022 wrote:You serious

amp1022 wrote:

You serious with this? How much of a chance would an atheist have in a group made up of 85% theists? 15% of them do not reject God because they are not sell-outs. They have enough courage to not pretend that you all have proven that the universe is the result of no ingredients mixing with nothing, stirred up by no one, and baked at 0 degrees. Oh wait, I forgot, the magical anti-matter did it, you know the antimatter that existed...but didn't...but did...but didn't.. Oh no wait it was the giant atom floating around in space for all eternity. The magical atom that does not need an origin, exploded to create perfect order in thousands of solar systems. Ya clearly you guys are the logical ones, something exists because nothing created it, that is science man. Us poor stupid theists with are stupid ideas about complex systems being built rather than popping into existence. Do you know that my computer started out as a calculator? I dropped it one day and a truck ran it over, lucky for me it exploded into a computer. You believe me right? Happens all the time right? Doesn't everyone have a story about a complex system poofing into existence right in front of them?

You make some really good arguments here, do you care to have a scientific discussion where we can both back our claims up with evidence and scientific theories?  

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Actually yes, lets start

Actually yes, lets start with one of you answering my question. Point out one time that existence from non-existence has been observed in a lab. Miracles from God have been observes, millions of times. You can choose not to believe it, that's your opinion, but you can not deny that the claims have been made. Keep it simple, have you ever actually seen existence come forth from non-existence? If you can point out a real example of this, then we have something to talk about, but without an example of it actually happening here in reality, I have millions of possible proofs of my beliefs, and I only need one to be true, but you have nothing. Not even one single POSSIBLE example. We Christians have actually seen our beliefs work, you obviously have never seen something poof into existence.


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amp1022 wrote:Actually yes,

amp1022 wrote:

Actually yes, lets start with one of you answering my question. Point out one time that existence from non-existence has been observed in a lab. Miracles from God have been observes, millions of times. You can choose not to believe it, that's your opinion, but you can not deny that the claims have been made. Keep it simple, have you ever actually seen existence come forth from non-existence? If you can point out a real example of this, then we have something to talk about, but without an example of it actually happening here in reality, I have millions of possible proofs of my beliefs, and I only need one to be true, but you have nothing. Not even one single POSSIBLE example. We Christians have actually seen our beliefs work, you obviously have never seen something poof into existence.

First of all, no one has ever made the assertion that something came from nothing. The universe prior to the existence of the big bang is not defined as "nothing"

 

Where are the "MILLIONS" of possible proofs for your beliefs ? ( I notice that you use the word "possible" ).

You only need one to be true ? Ok fine. Provide ONE. Not millions, just ONE that can not be disputed, debunked or debated and I'll say that you have won the debate. Just ONE. That should not be too hard for you.

Now, I find it interesting that you say that Christians have actually seen their beliefs work. What about the Islamics that will tell you the same thing ? What about the Hindus ? The Buddhists ? The Wiccans ? The Jainists ?

The reason that there is no examples of something coming from nothing, is because no one has ever asserted that, so you are making a strawman argument.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I am well aware that you all

I am well aware that you all have never admitted that you believe something came from nothing, I would not admit something that stupid either. But lets skip the part where you keep pointing out this energy and that anti-matter and I keep saying "where did that come from?". Going back to before there was anything in existence, how did something come from that? Without using any ingredients, or outside influence, explain to me where energy and matter came from. You don't want to admit it because its so incredibly stupid, but you can't deny the existence of a creator without saying that the universe formed itself, and at some point some had to have come from nothing. If I am wrong, ok my bad, simply explain how anything exist, and how it has always existed. I am not debated the origin of the universe, but the origin of existence.

As far as offering miracles that can not be disputed, I personally have experienced several undeniable miracles. I know your knee jerk reaction will be to call me a liar, but it happened all the same. I was once stuck outside with my mother and six brothers and sisters in the middle of a tornado with no protection of any kind, so we prayed. Not only were we left without a scratch on us, but the entire block we were on did not have so much as a branch broke off a tree. The rest of the city was in shambles. Call me a liar if it helps you sleep at night, its still true either way. My whole family can attest to it, and anyone that was in Jefferson city Mo. would certainly remember that block in perfect order while the rest of the city was destroyed.

Can you even pretend to have seen your beliefs come to pass right in front of you? Ever seen an explosion leave something in perfect order to support life? Didn't think so. Also when have you ever heard of a Buddhist or a Hindu claim to have seen a miracle? Do you even know what they believe? It would make no sense for them to even pretend to have seen a miracle. Also I can not remember ever hearing or reading about a Muslim claiming to have witnessed a miracle, not saying they never have, just saying I never heard of it.

If you claim that your beliefs are proven fact, you are either a liar, or easily manipulated. Even I don't claim God to be proven fact. Although I absolutely claim that intelligent design is fact. It is observed every single day in the world.

 

ps, i do think your beliefs are stupid, but I don't mean to call you stupid. I am sure your not stupid at all so please don't take it that way.


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amp1022 wrote:I am well

amp1022 wrote:

I am well aware that you all have never admitted that you believe something came from nothing, I would not admit something that stupid either. But lets skip the part where you keep pointing out this energy and that anti-matter and I keep saying "where did that come from?".

So you admit that you were being dishonest in your previous assertion ? Not very christian of you is it ?

amp1022 wrote:

 Going back to before there was anything in existence, how did something come from that? Without using any ingredients, or outside influence, explain to me where energy and matter came from. You don't want to admit it because its so incredibly stupid, but you can't deny the existence of a creator without saying that the universe formed itself, and at some point some had to have come from nothing. If I am wrong, ok my bad, simply explain how anything exist, and how it has always existed. I am not debated the origin of the universe, but the origin of existence.

So now your going to try and change the subject ? Dodging the question are you ? Still in all, how does any of this point to the existence of the Christian god as a creator ?

amp1022 wrote:

As far as offering miracles that can not be disputed, I personally have experienced several undeniable miracles. I know your knee jerk reaction will be to call me a liar, but it happened all the same. I was once stuck outside with my mother and six brothers and sisters in the middle of a tornado with no protection of any kind, so we prayed. Not only were we left without a scratch on us, but the entire block we were on did not have so much as a branch broke off a tree. The rest of the city was in shambles. Call me a liar if it helps you sleep at night, its still true either way. My whole family can attest to it, and anyone that was in Jefferson city Mo. would certainly remember that block in perfect order while the rest of the city was destroyed.

So god protected your family over the rest of the city ? Your more self-centered than I originally thought. No, that is not proof of a miracle. Hardly. We have tornados in this city all of the time, thus far, I have been protected and have not prayed during a single one. How do you account for that ? How do you account for all the innocent children that were not spared ? I suppose you'll dodge the bullet and say that god works in mysterious ways.

amp1022 wrote:

If you claim that your beliefs are proven fact, you are either a liar, or easily manipulated. Even I don't claim God to be proven fact. Although I absolutely claim that intelligent design is fact. It is observed every single day in the world.

 Glad to hear you admit that god can not be proven fact. You just need to realize that intellligent design is can not be proven fact either.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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amp1022 wrote:Actually yes,

amp1022 wrote:

Actually yes, lets start with one of you answering my question. Point out one time that existence from non-existence has been observed in a lab. Miracles from God have been observes, millions of times. You can choose not to believe it, that's your opinion, but you can not deny that the claims have been made. Keep it simple, have you ever actually seen existence come forth from non-existence? If you can point out a real example of this, then we have something to talk about, but without an example of it actually happening here in reality, I have millions of possible proofs of my beliefs, and I only need one to be true, but you have nothing. Not even one single POSSIBLE example. We Christians have actually seen our beliefs work, you obviously have never seen something poof into existence.

 

Oh dear.

 

Yes, actually, physicists have proved that quantum events are occurring all around us where particles pop into existence from nothing, then interact with their anti-particle and blip back into nothing again. This has been proven because it has been shown that 'empty' vacuum space has non-zero temperature. This is established physics, and any theistic physicist who supports the standard model will back this up.

So something can come from nothing, and it's happening around you all the time. 

Now please prove God creates something from nothing.

 


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amp1022 wrote:As far as

amp1022 wrote:

As far as offering miracles that can not be disputed, I personally have experienced several undeniable miracles...

Argument from Experience fallacy can be added to the list.. this is like fallacy bingo... carry on..

 

 

 

 


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amp1022 wrote:Point out one

amp1022 wrote:
Point out one time that existence from non-existence has been observed in a lab

Show me non-existence so we can put it in a lab and see if existence can come out of it.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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amp1022 wrote:As far as

amp1022 wrote:

As far as offering miracles that can not be disputed, I personally have experienced several undeniable miracles.

Still waiting for an undeniable miracle that can not be disputed to be put forth by you.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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amp1022 wrote:If you claim

amp1022 wrote:

If you claim that your beliefs are proven fact, you are either a liar, or easily manipulated. Even I don't claim God to be proven fact. Although I absolutely claim that intelligent design is fact. It is observed every single day in the world.

 

We'll skip why your family was spared, but a 5 year old little girl was not spared, but was instead brutally raped and strangled.  I'm certain you can justify her torturous death somehow.  (Search for news articles - November 2009, North Carolina - there has been at least one trial as well, so you can get transcripts if you really want to get into the nitty gritty of how god/s/dess tortures little girls.)

Instead, explain to me how the giraffe's laryngeal nerve is intelligent design?  I'll even give you some facts: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2010/08/30/dawkins-gets-inside-the-giraffes-neck/

If you walk upright, explain how the human back is an intelligent design.

Your prostate gland.  (Thank god/s/dess that I don't have one.)

This is a rational article on the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/magazine/20WWLN.html

 

If you have problems reading or viewing any of this, let me know, I'll be happy to repost any article plus any others I can find.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Ooh yes please, I'd like an

Ooh yes please, I'd like an intelligent design proof if you have one.

*holds breath with excitement*


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harleysportster wrote:So you

harleysportster wrote:

So you admit that you were being dishonest in your previous assertion ? Not very christian of you is it ?

Being dishonest about what? I admit you did not actually say you believe something came from nothing, because YOU are dishonest about what you believe.

harleysportster wrote:

So now your going to try and change the subject ? Dodging the question are you ? Still in all, how does any of this point to the existence of the Christian god as a creator ?

Still the same subject, explain what you believe. Who is trying to change the subject? Are you sure you even read my post before replying to it?

harleysportster wrote:

So god protected your family over the rest of the city ? Your more self-centered than I originally thought. No, that is not proof of a miracle. Hardly. We have tornados in this city all of the time, thus far, I have been protected and have not prayed during a single one. How do you account for that ? How do you account for all the innocent children that were not spared ? I suppose you'll dodge the bullet and say that god works in mysterious ways.

I am pretty sure I said God protected seven children (myself included) who were outside with no cove as a tornado actually passed over their block, and that nothing was out of place anywhere on the block. That is impossible by human standards any way you look at it.

 

harleysportster wrote:

 Glad to hear you admit that god can not be proven fact. You just need to realize that intellligent design is can not be proven fact either.

I never claimed that the Christian God's existence is a proven fact, if I did, quote me. Intelligent design is as obvious as gravity or inertia. It is one of those things that should not really require a lot of evidence to a thinking mind. Can you name a complex system that came into being without outside influence? I mean one that is proven to have come into existence without aid or any kind of help, just random chance? Good luck with that. Read my first post, this is the same question I have been asking the whole time. Please respond with an answer for a change. You really are doing your side more harm than good harleysportster.


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Vastet wrote: Show me

Vastet wrote:
Show me non-existence so we can put it in a lab and see if existence can come out of it.

Who's side are you on?


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GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:Oh

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

Oh dear.

 

Yes, actually, physicists have proved that quantum events are occurring all around us where particles pop into existence from nothing, then interact with their anti-particle and blip back into nothing again. This has been proven because it has been shown that 'empty' vacuum space has non-zero temperature. This is established physics, and any theistic physicist who supports the standard model will back this up.

So something can come from nothing, and it's happening around you all the time. 

Now please prove God creates something from nothing.

 

You did not really just say that? Wow. Try to read slowly please, that did not really happen! Show me some kind of documentation on that lab experiment. Let me guess, it has conveniently never been recorded. So they recorded a temperature in what was supposed to be empty space... and from there concluded that something must have popped into existence? Why wouldn't they assume that the empty space was contaminated from the start? That seems like such common sense I am having a hard time believing that educated people really came to that conclusion, I really don't believe you at all.

On the other hand, existence is proof of a creator. Would you believe me if I said I have no parents? Literally just popped into existence as a newborn baby. Also my watch, was not built by any human being, it started out as a sun dial that exploded and landed on my wrist as a timex. Sounds pretty stupid when you put it like that, but its science if you say it about the whole universe. (please note that phrase was dripping with sarcasm)


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amp1022 wrote:I am pretty

amp1022 wrote:

I am pretty sure I said God protected seven children (myself included) who were outside with no cove as a tornado actually passed over their block, and that nothing was out of place anywhere on the block. That is impossible by human standards any way you look at it.

Actually no meteorologist would call it impossible, such behavior by tornadoes has been frequently documented. People, animals and items have been picked up and moved while other things in the area are left untouched. A good meteorologist can provide you with the explanation as to why, they don't call it a "miracle". 

 

amp1022 wrote:

I never claimed that the Christian God's existence is a proven fact, if I did, quote me. Intelligent design is as obvious as gravity or inertia. It is one of those things that should not really require a lot of evidence to a thinking mind. Can you name a complex system that came into being without outside influence? I mean one that is proven to have come into existence without aid or any kind of help, just random chance? Good luck with that.

Yet we have countless scientific studies examining gravity and inertia that provide tons of evidence not only as to their existence, but also to the causes, properties and how they can be manipulated. I have yet to see a single one on an intelligent designer of the universe. In other areas, what might seem intuition has been proven wrong. For example, if you had no knowledge of ships would you believe that a large piece of iron could float? Would you believe that a C130 could fly with no knowledge other than your intuition? For thousands of years people believed the world was flat because it appeared obvious to any thinking mind that it was.

One complex system that came into being without outside influence? That tornado you were talking about would be a good example. Any tornado, storm, hurricane etc. can be incredibly complex but we can explain how they develop and can often predict them with a fair amount of accuracy. You are aware that when a thunder bolt comes down that there isn't a god sitting on the cloud throwing it right?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Tornado's come into

Tornado's come into existence without any outside influence? No clouds or water or air or anything? I had no idea, I guess you win.

And no a meteorologist could not explain how an entire city block comes out a tornado without a scratch. I didn't say the tornado left a thing or two behind, I said it affected nothing, not even the leaves. Not even the seven small children exposed to the elements.

 


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amp1022

amp1022 wrote:

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

Oh dear.

 

Yes, actually, physicists have proved that quantum events are occurring all around us where particles pop into existence from nothing, then interact with their anti-particle and blip back into nothing again. This has been proven because it has been shown that 'empty' vacuum space has non-zero temperature. This is established physics, and any theistic physicist who supports the standard model will back this up.

So something can come from nothing, and it's happening around you all the time. 

Now please prove God creates something from nothing.

 

You did not really just say that? Wow. Try to read slowly please, that did not really happen! Show me some kind of documentation on that lab experiment. Let me guess, it has conveniently never been recorded. So they recorded a temperature in what was supposed to be empty space... and from there concluded that something must have popped into existence? Why wouldn't they assume that the empty space was contaminated from the start? That seems like such common sense I am having a hard time believing that educated people really came to that conclusion, I really don't believe you at all.

On the other hand, existence is proof of a creator. Would you believe me if I said I have no parents? Literally just popped into existence as a newborn baby. Also my watch, was not built by any human being, it started out as a sun dial that exploded and landed on my wrist as a timex. Sounds pretty stupid when you put it like that, but its science if you say it about the whole universe. (please note that phrase was dripping with sarcasm)

Excellent work, I can add argument from incredulity to my score card.

Yes, This is EXACTLY what I am saying - this is proven physics - just because you don't understand it does not mean it ain't so.

Here's the theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particles

And here's the experiment that proves it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

 

Your other points are completely illogical. How does you having parents indicate there is a universal creator? I wouldn't believe you if you said you just popped into existence, because I am surrounded by examples of people with parents, so I know this is the overwhelming likelihood. If you tell me you popped into existence then you better have some damn good evidence for it. Same if you tell me a watch got spontaneously made. I want to see some evidence. Same with God creating the universe - show me the evidence. Just because it 'seems' wrong to you doesn't mean it is. Think about your utter disbelief that something can pop into existence from nothing until I just showed you the evidence for it. That's what I'd like from you please, rather than unsubstantiated claims. 

 

 

 


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amp1022 wrote:Tornado's come

amp1022 wrote:

Tornado's come into existence without any outside influence? No clouds or water or air or anything? I had no idea, I guess you win.

What do you think tornadoes are made of? No outside influence as in no god or intelligent designer.

 

amp1022 wrote:
 

And no a meteorologist could not explain how an entire city block comes out a tornado without a scratch. I didn't say the tornado left a thing or two behind, I said it affected nothing, not even the leaves. Not even the seven small children exposed to the elements.

Have you asked one? Perhaps you ought to consult the great google before making such bold claims. Generally, damage patterns like you describe are due to a multiple vortex tornado. If you are interested in reality, you might want to look at them a bit before declaring "miracle!" like some caveman seeing rain for the first time. 

http://www.cswr.org/publications/2002Jun-MultipleVortexStructureofaTor.pdf

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Am I speaking Russian or

Am I speaking Russian or something? There was no vortex you moron, how many times do I have to say that I was out there, I saw the tornado run right over the block. You telling me a tornado ran over my block and did not even knock the leaves down because of a vortex? Anyways you would not believe it because you don't want to, typical secular "science". Everyone is a liar unless they agree that we came from monkeys.

Tornadoes form when a column of spinning air gathers around a low pressure point in a thundercloud and becomes powerful enough to stretch from the cloud to the ground. The pressure points in clouds that cause tornadoes are rare, require a series of weather events to form and rarely last for long periods of time.


Read more: How Is a Tornado Formed? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5147618_tornado-formed.html#ixzz25jrP3SpX 

I'm sure they meant to say tornado's pop into existence out of nothing just like everything else. Wow.

Clouds are evaporated water, in case you thought those also pop into existence from nothing, sorry to mess with your little fantasy land.


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amp1022 wrote:Am I speaking

amp1022 wrote:

Am I speaking Russian or something? There was no vortex you moron, how many times do I have to say that I was out there, I saw the tornado run right over the block. You telling me a tornado ran over my block and did not even knock the leaves down because of a vortex? Anyways you would not believe it because you don't want to, typical secular "science". Everyone is a liar unless they agree that we came from monkeys.

I'm rather confident that the tornado's activity was monitored by the nation weather service and I am quite certain that many meteorologists examined the data from the very same tornado you saw. The fact is that such damage patterns are not extremely rare and the causes are understood, did you even read the link? 

If you have any evidence that the tornado you saw was somehow different, I would like to see it, and I'm sure many meteorologists would as well since they are starting to run out of things they can't explain. Scientists love a good puzzle. 

 

amp1022 wrote:

Tornadoes form when a column of spinning air gathers around a low pressure point in a thundercloud and becomes powerful enough to stretch from the cloud to the ground. The pressure points in clouds that cause tornadoes are rare, require a series of weather events to form and rarely last for long periods of time.


Read more: How Is a Tornado Formed? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5147618_tornado-formed.html#ixzz25jrP3SpX 

I'm sure they meant to say tornado's pop into existence out of nothing just like everything else. Wow.

Clouds are evaporated water, in case you thought those also pop into existence from nothing, sorry to mess with your little fantasy land.

Yes I know how tornadoes are formed, no god required and they are complex, my point exactly- something complex that is formed without an intelligent designer. Clouds also form, on their own, no god required.  So how is any of this evidence that for the world to be created there must have been a god? Tornado- no god, clouds- no god, hurricane- no god therefore, the world must have been created by god... Even you must see that line of reasoning makes no sense. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


harleysportster
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Beyond Saving wrote:Yes I

Beyond Saving wrote:

Yes I know how tornadoes are formed, no god required and they are complex, my point exactly- something complex that is formed without an intelligent designer. Clouds also form, on their own, no god required.  So how is any of this evidence that for the world to be created there must have been a god? Tornado- no god, clouds- no god, hurricane- no god therefore, the world must have been created by god... Even you must see that line of reasoning makes no sense. 

Speaking of which, why did god allow the tornado to wreak all of that havoc in the first place and just miss the believers ? Oh, that's right, god works in mysterious ways.

Plane crash happens and 150 people die and one lives, they say god was watching over that one person, I guess the other 149 were fucked.

It is extremely selfish and self-centered to think that prayers saved someone from a weather pattern but allowed everyone else to get blown away and their property destroyed.

Someone would have to also be very delusional to think that their petitions to the omnibenevolent magic man in the sky somehow altered the entire storm just for themselves.

But, this type of theist reasoning is pretty typical.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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GodsUseForAMosquito

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

Excellent work, I can add argument from incredulity to my score card.

 

Yep, the logical fallacies and the naked assertions are piling up.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I want to put on the table,

I want to put on the table, not why 85% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences reject God, I want to know why 15% of the National Academy don’t."

— Neil deGrasse Tyson

 

Money, social popularity and sex.

I want to know why the 85% haven't figured out the obvious.

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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amp1022 wrote:Anyways you

amp1022 wrote:

Anyways you would not believe it because you don't want to, typical secular "science". Everyone is a liar unless they agree that we came from monkeys.

Strawman fallacy

False Equivalency fallacy

 

The workings of a tornado have nothing at all to do with evolution.

 

Why do you have contempt for 'secular' science? Science is what allows us to communicate like this over the internet. use of science allows you to travel the world, use your mobile phone, put men on the moon, preserve food for long periods, safely remove your appendix - are these not useful things? Why are you so contemptuous of it? Would you prefer to live with the Amish?

But in order to work, science needs to be evidence-based. that means, being able to obtain similar, repeatable results in an experiment. Also, that there are no examples that prove the experiment to be false.

This is called the scientific method. 

 

Now your experience with the tornado is undoubtedly true; none of us have any reason not to believe it. However, your belief that God saved you is not evidence based. It's a leap of faith.

I have to things I'd like you to consider.

1) non-god-based explanation: The tornado became a funnel cloud while it passed over - a funnel cloud is similar to a tornado, but doesn't touch the earth, and doesn't drag things up from the earth. still looks like a tornado though. This is something that could easily happen. God is not required to turn tornadoes into funnel clouds. I'm not saying that's what really happened,but it's a possibility that does not require god to be involved

2) here's a thought experiment: imagine that one of your group of children praying while the tornado approached happened to be a little muslim. You all pray to god, and she's fervently praying to Allah. The tornado mysteriously doesn't cause you or your surroundings any damage as it passes over. Praise God! But wait a minute.. the little girl prayed to Allah - perhaps Allah was the one that saved you. Would you believe her that it was actually Allah that saved you all? if you don't accept her reasoning, why should we accept your explanation? Can you see why we must treat your argument based on personal experience with scepticism?

 

Finally, you keep using this 'pop into existence from nothing' scoffing, but I have shown you evidence for things that really do pop into existence from nothing. Why do you continue to use this as if it's idiocy to believe such things? Do you have some sort of rebuttal to the evidence I provided? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the links I provided about spontaneous existence.

 

 


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Please amp, pleeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssse

 

 

define god. So far as I can tell the assertions of amp did not create the universe. What did? And how?

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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amp1022 wrote:I never

amp1022 wrote:

I never claimed that the Christian God's existence is a proven fact, if I did, quote me. Intelligent design is as obvious as gravity or inertia. It is one of those things that should not really require a lot of evidence to a thinking mind. Can you name a complex system that came into being without outside influence? I mean one that is proven to have come into existence without aid or any kind of help, just random chance? Good luck with that. Read my first post, this is the same question I have been asking the whole time. Please respond with an answer for a change. You really are doing your side more harm than good harleysportster.

Your definitely wrong here. Your creating an argument from incredulity fallacy. The universe is 99% inhospitable to human life, and the Earth itself is inhospitable to human life for most of the planet. The only reason that people are able to live longer is because of science, technology, and medicine. Not to mention creature comforts.

So if there was a creator, it/he/she/ it certainly did not do a very good job of being "intelligent" for human life.

But, even if I were to believe that your assertion was correct, it still does not prove that there is a god, albeit a biblical one.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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tisk tisk

Funny how theists always end up sounding like really enthusiastic deist's.

 

Intelligent design is a severely flawed and self refuting theory.

I'm sure amp thinks things like: snowflakes, coral reef and crystals are designed by a creator as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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amp1022 wrote:Vastet wrote:

amp1022 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Show me non-existence so we can put it in a lab and see if existence can come out of it.

Who's side are you on?

Mine. Smiling

So you can't show me non-existence? How do we know whether or not existence can come from non-existence if we don't even know what non-existence is?

I know amp probably isn't coming back, but you never know.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Beyond Saving
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Vastet wrote:amp1022

Vastet wrote:
amp1022 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Show me non-existence so we can put it in a lab and see if existence can come out of it.

Who's side are you on?

Mine. Smiling

ROFL

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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amp1022 wrote:Tornado's come

amp1022 wrote:

Tornado's come into existence without any outside influence? No clouds or water or air or anything? I had no idea, I guess you win.

And no a meteorologist could not explain how an entire city block comes out a tornado without a scratch. I didn't say the tornado left a thing or two behind, I said it affected nothing, not even the leaves. Not even the seven small children exposed to the elements.

 

 

Obviously, it happened because > 50% of the blocks population fellated the right god. Or priest. Or whatever.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.