Science explains the existence of God.

Greatest I am
Greatest I am's picture
Posts: 278
Joined: 2012-03-30
User is offlineOffline
Science explains the existence of God.

Science explains the existence of God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNSe4Ff57n4&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haBLjVqrrjM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDbesQQi9yc

Without a personal apotheosis, all who claim that God is real without any personal knowledge --- without a clear logic trail --- are just lying to themselves as well as others.

All who claim a God are also idol worshipping. They have just pasted their bible pages onto a golden calf. They think they have hidden the calf’s shape but it is still discernible under the manmade WORD of God. To have a Godinabook is to idol worship.

Most that follow a religion do not really follow it. They only follow tradition and cultures based on old tribal ways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

Are you an idol worshipper or do you fall under the first link’s definition?

If not, give the logic trail to your God.

Regards
DL

P. S. Most will see this O P as an attack on those who believe. If you do, then you should know that I am not an atheist but call myself a Gnostic Christian and do believe in a Godhead. It is just not supernatural and is not immoral the way the bible God is portrayed to be.


thelilith
thelilith's picture
Posts: 39
Joined: 2012-07-13
User is offlineOffline
Greatest I am wrote:Without

Greatest I am wrote:
Without a personal apotheosis, all who claim that God is real without any personal knowledge --- without a clear logic trail --- are just lying to themselves as well as others.


Isn’t the concept of God too vague and abused, being a closed or empty idea and largely being seen as something that exists outside us and nearly always male.  Can you come up with another word or phrase for what you’re driving at and one which can be debated in a more open fashion.

 

Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
Tony de Mello


Greatest I am
Greatest I am's picture
Posts: 278
Joined: 2012-03-30
User is offlineOffline
thelilith wrote:Greatest I

thelilith wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Without a personal apotheosis, all who claim that God is real without any personal knowledge --- without a clear logic trail --- are just lying to themselves as well as others.


Isn’t the concept of God too vague and abused, being a closed or empty idea and largely being seen as something that exists outside us and nearly always male.  Can you come up with another word or phrase for what you’re driving at and one which can be debated in a more open fashion.

 

Being a Gnostic Christian, and believing that we all have an internal access to God, I would say that my God is male as he is being interpreted by my male mind. Your internal God will be female as you can only interpret with your female mind.

 

This may have been well known to the ancients and that may be why they showed their Gods to be androgynous.

The concepts of God are indeed abused as all that has been said and is known of God has come from human mouths and minds.

 

That first clip shows where our delusions come from.

 

Regards

DL 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Snakes alive, DL

 

Greatest I am wrote:

Being a Gnostic Christian, and believing that we all have an internal access to God...

 

Although your tone has always been a bit godly and your angles usually oblique, I didn't realise you were a gnostic christian. Excellent. Which is your favoured gnostic text? Why did you chose gnosticism over the delights of the establishment? How do 'real' christians deal with your gnostic interpretations? Do you believe in jesus? What are the general underpinnings of your belief system in a paragraph?

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Greatest I am
Greatest I am's picture
Posts: 278
Joined: 2012-03-30
User is offlineOffline
Thanks for the interest.In

Thanks for the interest.

In brief.

I have no favorite gospel. To me none should be taken literally as all  FMPOV were written to stimulate though and dialog and they all come from Egypt and Sumer. Gilgamesh I think highlights this. Many Gnostics like the Gospel of Jesus and

Thomas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqQUHXfqR6I&feature=related

Real Christians tend to hate me. That is likely why when Constantine bought the Catholic church, they killed many of us and burned most of our scriptures. They left some around though.

I believe in Jesus as an archetypal good man. Not as a God or a part of the foolish Trinity concept that Constantine forced down the churches throat for his own self-aggrandisement.

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Regards
DL


Peggotty
atheist
Peggotty's picture
Posts: 116
Joined: 2012-08-07
User is offlineOffline
Greatest I am wrote:Real

Greatest I am wrote:
Real Christians tend to hate me. That is likely why when Constantine bought the Catholic church, they killed many of us and burned most of our scriptures. They left some around though.


It seems Constantine lost too many battles after praying to all the other Gods and someone suggested he pray to the Christian God and he won his first battle for some time.

After his stroke of luck the Romans adopted Christianity 325AD for their main religion and the bishops after the ‘Council of Nicaea’ realised they had hit the big time.


Quote wrote:
I believe in Jesus as an archetypal good man. Not as a God or a part of the foolish Trinity concept that Constantine forced down the churches throat for his own self-aggrandisement.


To give them the most power and to discourage people thinking for themselves eight Gospels were destroyed including Mary Magdalen (branded a prostitute) and Thomas who quoted Jesus as saying  (paraphrase) ‘I am a guide and you must make up your own minds.’

Quote wrote:
This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible.


Until that point the Gospels had been in scroll form and hidden away in cubby holes but now ta biblia (the books) were pushed forward as one book MMLJ only.  Copies of the original scrolls were found in a cave in 1945 and a book was published the ‘Gnostic Gospels’. In other words there is no bible.

Quote wrote:
During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.


I don’t know what you mean by cosmic consciousness after your apotheosis can you put it into words.

Quote wrote:
Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.


In terms of humans being ‘supreme’ I imagine you mean by that we are at the top of the food chain or are you implying that we are evolving into something other than we are now.

Quote wrote:
I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.


You say you are concentrating your studies in the direction of morals do you mean that humans can evolve in this area when there doesn’t seem to be much evidence. Humans have evolved in terms of knowledge but the moment we say this is ‘supreme’ we are making the familiar mistake.

 

 

Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens


Greatest I am
Greatest I am's picture
Posts: 278
Joined: 2012-03-30
User is offlineOffline
Peggotty Let me give you a

Peggotty

Let me give you a bit on Constantine and how the West ended up embracing Christianity’s God of war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD0eSqFJ7J4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA_SSpQDpl4&feature=related

--------------------------

“In other words there is no bible.”

I agree. It was originally just a consolidation of wisdom saying from other older religions. It was to be a book that was not to be read literally. It, like all Gospels, including the Gnostic ones, was written as a tool to open discussions about God. Not point to one.

------------------------------

“I don’t know what you mean by cosmic consciousness after your apotheosis can you put it into words.”

Perhaps an analogy is the best for this.
Think of your consciousness as a P C. Think of the cosmic consciousness as a main frame full of independent P Cs like yourself with full freedom to surf the mainframe.

The difference between what you input there and here is that there, when you communicate with another P C, you automatically have all the information that put the others ideas into his head and the truth of it is plain to see.
------------------------------

“In terms of humans being ‘supreme’ I imagine you mean by that we are at the top of the food chain or are you implying that we are evolving into something other than we are now.”

Top of the food chain yes but also the top of the thinking chain and we should not kowtow to invisible or imaginary Gods. FMPOV, God has always been man. No one but a man has ever put words to the will of God. That God was never able to speak without man. So to speak. The Godhead or cosmic consciousness can only be accessed by us and cannot speak for its self.

Our next evolutionary step is to the cosmic consciousness. In that we have no choice. It is a natural transition.

-------------------------------------

“You say you are concentrating your studies in the direction of morals do you mean that humans can evolve in this area when there doesn’t seem to be much evidence.”

I do not so much study morals as try to get the religious to implement them and discard their genocidal son murdering God. They do not realize that human sacrifice and punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is immoral.

We do not need to develop morals. What we have is good enough. It is just a matter of implementation.

Check this clip and note that man’s first moral law is shown as being centered on others while the first religious law is God’s self-centered, place no God above me.

FMPOV, morality should be how we treat others and not our own selves.
Certainly we have to survive to do so so some self-centeredness we cannot help. Survival is not morality though and the survival of the common should always be before the survival of any individual. Even a God.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

Regards
DL


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13623
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Quote: I am not an atheist

Quote:
I am not an atheist but call myself a Gnostic Christian and do believe in a Godhead. It is just not supernatural and is not immoral the way the bible God is portrayed to be.

Translation, "I am not like the others".

Vacuous tripe in an attempt to paint what is clearly superstition as not being superstition is the same crap we see all the time when someone knows that they cant defend the older motifs.

"god/God" ARE super natural otherwise there would be no point in calling it god/God.

This is just superstition light. Nice god vs mean god does not change that you believe in a god and you have the same amount of evidence they do, and the same amount of evidence that the sun was a god like the Egyptians falsely  believed. YOU ARE like the others once you make the naked assertion that a god exists, or is even required to explain anything.

You are in the same boat as Muslims and Sikhs and Hindus and Scientology. You are even in the same boat as pantheists who like to believe that the universe itself is it's own cognition. Woo is woo and tripe is tripe and a naked assertion is the same, no matter what color tux you try to dress the skunk up in.

You merely have a pet claim you like, and it is merely all in your head, just like any other human who is living or has lived who wants to believe a club label is the inventor of reality.

Humans like their pet whims and rarely if ever do a damned thing to examine their own claims, they simply swallow it because "it sounds good". Committing mental gymnastics to prop up your naked assertion does not constitute any semblance of a measurable reality, it only means you have  a vivid imagination.

You are like every other human who has liked an idea so much they don't care that they don't have a damned lick of evidence and will retrofit reality to suit their pet superstition.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Hi DL

 

Given what you are saying, why load yourself up with christianity at all? You're not really a follower of nicene jesus. You seem to be at once pantheist, jewish and hindu. There's nothing really locked in about what you believe. I'm curious as to what you consider to be a 'godhead' particularly given the fact you say we are equipped to be as good as we can be and we are destined ultimately, to be gods/godlike in some way in the future perhaps as part of the evolution of morality?

Do you love jesus DL, in that particular way? If not, surely you could alter your nomenclature? Maybe you follow gnostic judaism? Or do you respect jesus and embrace the gentle teachings that are common to gnostic doctrines, those that philosophically eschew the later coalescence of weirdness and bitterness that became Augustinian catholicism?

I don't really buy into any of these things myself as as a devoted skeptic but I'm supportive of this sort of accepting and open theism. Some people are obviously 'spiritual' in some way that is closed to me and these people should be able to make their meaning of the mysteries of life. Be tough on some one with that sort of inner 'feel' to be locked into a universe of dead gluons. To me the material-ness of the universe makes my awareness all the more profound but that's me. 

It's better if religious doctrines are inclusive, positive about human goodness and benign rather than violently judgmental and driven by cultural bigotries. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Greatest I am
Greatest I am's picture
Posts: 278
Joined: 2012-03-30
User is offlineOffline
I do not load myself with

I do not load myself with Christianity. We are not friendly at all. I am against then for moral reasons. If you are spiritual as you say, I should not need say anymore about a religion based on human sacrifice and a genocidal God.

Why would I love Jesus?

Which one?

The Islam version, Christian, Gnostic, Jewish?

If Jesus lived,  he is a long dead Rabbi. How can I love a dead man?

Regards

DL

 

 

 


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
Greatest I am wrote: FMPOV,

Greatest I am wrote:

FMPOV, morality should be how we treat others and not our own selves Certainly we have to survive to do so so some self-centeredness we cannot help. Survival is not morality though and the survival of the common should always be before the survival of any individual. Even a God. any individual. Even a God.


You treat others like how you treat yourself. I think it is a false dichotomy to think of it any other way. As the saying goes, "hurt people hurt people". Do you see that?

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Hmmmm

Greatest I am wrote:

I do not load myself with Christianity. We are not friendly at all. I am against then for moral reasons. If you are spiritual as you say, I should not need say anymore about a religion based on human sacrifice and a genocidal God.

Why would I love Jesus?

Which one?

The Islam version, Christian, Gnostic, Jewish?

If Jesus lived,  he is a long dead Rabbi. How can I love a dead man?

Regards

DL

 

I get all this DL, but you called yourself a gnostic christian. If jesus is not important to you then you are not a follower of christ, not any sort of christian, you are just gnostic, perhaps gnostic jewish, philosophically. 

I observed you were spiritual, something I am fine with. As a skeptic I'm not spiritual at all, I interpret all those feelings others might call spirituality as relating to my mind. 

Simply, I'm curious as to why you identify with christians at all, and believe in a godhead at all. Your beliefs seem bigger than this, more eastern.  

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Greatest I am
Greatest I am's picture
Posts: 278
Joined: 2012-03-30
User is offlineOffline
I call myself a Gnostic

I call myself a Gnostic Christian because I use the Christian bible as well as Gnostic writings to form my opinions. This is basically a cultural decision because I live in a Christian culture. If I lived in the East I would likely be a Gnostic Hindu or Gnostic of some other religion. As I said, all scriptures FMPOV were written just to engage the mind. Not lead to any particular God.

 

Jesus is no more important to me than any other prophet or Rabbi. Wisdom can be found in all of the various religions depending on how you read their works. With the bible, there is much wisdom but thanks to Chrsitianity reversing the older interpretations, to get the wisdom, you have to basically reverse it back to the original.

 

"As a skeptic I'm not spiritual at all, I interpret all those feelings others might call spirituality as relating to my mind."

As it should. That is where all information is processed and stored.

 

As I stated above, the only reason I believe in the Godhead is because of my apotheosis. Without it, I would likely still be a skeptic and not hold any belief in the unseen.

 

Regards

DL

 

 

 


Greatest I am
Greatest I am's picture
Posts: 278
Joined: 2012-03-30
User is offlineOffline
ex-minister wrote:Greatest I

ex-minister wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
FMPOV, morality should be how we treat others and not our own selves Certainly we have to survive to do so so some self-centeredness we cannot help. Survival is not morality though and the survival of the common should always be before the survival of any individual. Even a God. any individual. Even a God.

You treat others like how you treat yourself. I think it is a false dichotomy to think of it any other way. As the saying goes, "hurt people hurt people". Do you see that?

 

Not the way you do.

Sure we all get hurt and in that sense you are right. The thing is that if we consider the health of the whole common then we must hurt and be hurt as part of our evolution to maintain the survival of the fittest and not go extinct. Even self-hurt in some cases is the moral thing to do.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa6c3OTr6yA

 

Regards

DL


Peggotty
atheist
Peggotty's picture
Posts: 116
Joined: 2012-08-07
User is offlineOffline
Greatest I am wrote:Let me

Greatest I am wrote:
Let me give you a bit on Constantine and how the West ended up embracing Christianity’s God of war.


Thanks Greatest, looks like Constantine followed the route of all massive egos he chose the subject and then talked about himself! A clever tactic to delude the Christian soldiers in his army and the historians by the looks of it.

Is there any chance you may be History Smurf or are you ‘keeping mum’ on that.
 

Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens


Greatest I am
Greatest I am's picture
Posts: 278
Joined: 2012-03-30
User is offlineOffline
Peggotty wrote:Greatest I am

Peggotty wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Let me give you a bit on Constantine and how the West ended up embracing Christianity’s God of war.


Thanks Greatest, looks like Constantine followed the route of all massive egos he chose the subject and then talked about himself! A clever tactic to delude the Christian soldiers in his army and the historians by the looks of it.

Is there any chance you may be History Smurf or are you ‘keeping mum’ on that.
 

No.

I do not know History  Smurf.

A mind worth knowing?

 

Regards

DL

 


Peggotty
atheist
Peggotty's picture
Posts: 116
Joined: 2012-08-07
User is offlineOffline
Greatest I Am wrote:Top of

Greatest I Am wrote:
Top of the food chain yes but also the top of the thinking chain and we should not kowtow to invisible or imaginary Gods. FMPOV, God has always been man.


Old Seer wrote:
These interpretations are for those interested. If the book doesn't interest you---let it be. If I interpret the book to mean people are God and if you disagree---so disagree.

No.
I do not know History  Smurf.
A mind worth knowing?
 

Just wondering whether you were one of Old Seer’s crew of Smurfs, Engineer Smurf, Psycho Smurf etc (he being Bible Smurf) and you possibly History Smurf?

There are similarities in your posts both of you having the idea that man is God for a kickoff.
 

Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens


Greatest I am
Greatest I am's picture
Posts: 278
Joined: 2012-03-30
User is offlineOffline
Peggotty wrote:Greatest I Am

Peggotty wrote:

Greatest I Am wrote:
Top of the food chain yes but also the top of the thinking chain and we should not kowtow to invisible or imaginary Gods. FMPOV, God has always been man.


Old Seer wrote:
These interpretations are for those interested. If the book doesn't interest you---let it be. If I interpret the book to mean people are God and if you disagree---so disagree.

No.
I do not know History  Smurf.
A mind worth knowing?
 

Just wondering whether you were one of Old Seer’s crew of Smurfs, Engineer Smurf, Psycho Smurf etc (he being Bible Smurf) and you possibly History Smurf?

There are similarities in your posts both of you having the idea that man is God for a kickoff.
 

I see.

Who else would God be?

 

Nothing has ever been said by a God. Only men.

If men are to represent and speak for Gods then men are Gods.

 

Being a Gnostic Christian, I have no problem giving credit to men. Beats giving credit to an absentee God.

We are truly the temples of God because there is no other.

 

Regards

DL