Fallacy Files, Robertson blames Temple shooting on atheists.

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Fallacy Files, Robertson blames Temple shooting on atheists.

http://www.examiner.com/article/pat-robertson-blames-atheists-for-sikh-temple-shooting

Fallacy Files

Once again right wing nut case Pat Robertson childishly tries to demonize atheists to remain in the spotlight by blaming the Sikh Temple shooting on atheists and "hate of God".

 

He is right atheists DO hate God, but only as a claim, not as a human rights issue. Just as if someone had a friend who they loved who still insisted that the sun rotated around the earth, you may love that person, but if you know that is false, it would bother you that your friend went around claiming it. Just as you would hate it if someone went around claiming Thor made lightening. The believer has the saying "Love the sinner not the sin". The atheist version would be "love the claimant, not the claim itself".

Now let me make something clear Pat. It is completely false that because we don't believe in a god, that we cannot have empathy for the suffering of people who do believe. Our sympathies for the Temple victims is the same as it was for the theater victims and Va Tec.

 

Having debated a wide spectrum of beliefs from Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist and Pantheist, I'd be just as willing to debate a Sikh, not because people believe all sorts of things, but because they have no evidence for such claims, no human has ever had anything but a history of tradition. If that were all it took for evidence to constitute reality then the sun would be a god because people once believed it for 3,000 years.

 

What IS universal, is our species ability to feel pain and empathy. No label owns a monopoly on what humans have always gone through. The joy and pain we have in life is not the invention or property of Christians, or Muslims or Sikhs or Jews or atheists.

 

I feel bad for the victims of any type of crime that involves murder, be it a domestic crime, mass shooting, or the genocide going on in Syria. The point is debate and blasphemy is a completly separate subject and has NOTHING to do with the atheist ability, BECAUSE WE ARE, despite your fucking bullshit, the same species.

 

Atheists go through the same ups and downs in life as believers OF ALL LABELS. We have lost loved ones to illness, accidents, old age and sometimes crime. There were plenty of witnesses in NYC who were godless who lost loved ones, and where just as traumatized by that event as any believer.

We are not a sub species like you'd childishly like to sell the public. We have family members and friends and co-workers who do believe. We do not live on an island. If this had been an atheist convention shooting, rather than a Sikh Temple, do you honestly believe we'd be robots and say "oh well", not not give a shit about the deaths of others?

We are all humans first Pat, which is why you cannot fucking accept that you are not the center of the universe. You devalue the suffering of the victims of ALL violence and you ignore the humanity all of us have evolved from, by making it about you, and your pet god, rather than our common humanity.

A victim is a victim and that person feels pain, and that person's family members feel pain. How dare you even fucking suggest that because we may not like the logic of what ANY person of any label might claim, that because of our objections to use of logic, that we are somehow monsters.

Any person who is witness to a mass shooting, be it in a Mosque or Synagogue or Theater or College or Sikh Temple  is going to feel the same pain and suffering, and if it were an atheist event, we would too. You will not get away with this dirty tactic and fear mongering. Atheists feel just as bad for these Sikhs, regardless of what we might think of ANY given god claim in human history. This event is about humans suffering, and that is something to varying degrees, all humans will go through in their lives.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Jeffrick
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typical.

 

 

                Robertson is nothing more then a senile uninformed nuscience and not worth the time of day. Does he not know that these racist right wing aryan types are devoted followers of right wing [re-700 club types] christians. 

 

 

 

 

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     Once again, Pat

     Once again, Pat demonstrates his ignorance. The sad part about all of it, is the millions of people that listen to that stuff and buy into it, hook, line and sinker.  A lot of these people will never stop and question what their told by these church leaders and will just simply accept it as truth.

    We can only hope that as the presence of Atheism becomes more in the public spectrum, the more that people will begin to accept that we are just ordinary people that happen to not believe in god.

   I know that growing up in a religion that preached a lot of homophobia, I still carried some of that ignorance with me when I first de-converted. It was only when I started encountering co-workers that were gay, bumping into people that were gay and finding out that I genuinely LIKED them, that it just hit me how silly all of the latent homophobia really was.

   Now, I can honestly say that I don't understand some of these homophobic memes among people, nor do I have any stereotypes about gay people.

  The point I am making is the more Atheism makes a presence in our society, the more that a lot of people will begin to see that it is no big deal to be Atheist.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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 Then again, the Sikhs

 Then again, the Sikhs would consider Pat an atheist so he just added himself to the list of suspects...

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

     Once again, Pat demonstrates his ignorance. The sad part about all of it, is the millions of people that listen to that stuff and buy into it, hook, line and sinker.  A lot of these people will never stop and question what their told by these church leaders and will just simply accept it as truth.

    We can only hope that as the presence of Atheism becomes more in the public spectrum, the more that people will begin to accept that we are just ordinary people that happen to not believe in god.

   I know that growing up in a religion that preached a lot of homophobia, I still carried some of that ignorance with me when I first de-converted. It was only when I started encountering co-workers that were gay, bumping into people that were gay and finding out that I genuinely LIKED them, that it just hit me how silly all of the latent homophobia really was.

   Now, I can honestly say that I don't understand some of these homophobic memes among people, nor do I have any stereotypes about gay people.

  The point I am making is the more Atheism makes a presence in our society, the more that a lot of people will begin to see that it is no big deal to be Atheist.

Atheists or the more indifferent 'non-religious' are gaining ground nicely. We, atheists, are out more than ever. All we need to do now is continue fighting irrationality in religion and stop society from falling off wagon and readdicting to religion.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


harleysportster
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ThunderJones wrote:Atheists

ThunderJones wrote:

Atheists or the more indifferent 'non-religious' are gaining ground nicely. We, atheists, are out more than ever. All we need to do now is continue fighting irrationality in religion and stop society from falling off wagon and readdicting to religion.

I agree. As much as the religious instiutions would love to return us to the Dark Ages and burning people at the stake, they are slowly but surely losing their stranglehold on society.

Having been a formerly fanatically religious person, I feel some sympathy for some of the sincere theists (none for the ones that use it for bigotry and hatred) but I have zero sympathy for their leaders and pastors that make money off of the ignorance of people by pushing agendas of fear, self-abasement and outright lying.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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 I mostly agree with you,

 I mostly agree with you, although I wouldn't say I hate God, nor do many (maybe even most) other atheists. I don't see how one can hate something that they don't believe in. That, and personal belief in a god is not really a big deal. Perhaps either a bit deluded or maybe just an overindulgence in wishful thinking, but the belief itself isn't a horrible thing. It's the things that come with the belief that I really hate. Yes, they do have a root in the belief, but put people who believe and leave the rest of the world are fine by me, and I usually leave them alone. Robertson, however, is absolutely depraved.

Jenkins, chap with wings there, five rounds rapid!


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KnockEmOuttt wrote: I

KnockEmOuttt wrote:

 I mostly agree with you, although I wouldn't say I hate God, nor do many (maybe even most) other atheists. I don't see how one can hate something that they don't believe in. That, and personal belief in a god is not really a big deal. Perhaps either a bit deluded or maybe just an overindulgence in wishful thinking, but the belief itself isn't a horrible thing. It's the things that come with the belief that I really hate. Yes, they do have a root in the belief, but put people who believe and leave the rest of the world are fine by me, and I usually leave them alone. Robertson, however, is absolutely depraved.

As far as using the word "hate" in reference to God, for me it is YES AND NO.

Depending on context.

I hate ANY god concept in human history, just like if I went to a bad movie or read a bad book. I cannot hate Micky Mouse or Lex Luthor either.

I also hate especially as a claim AND A CLAIM ONLY, the logic of the Omni god claim. It conflicts with being all powerful and what we see in reality, which can only make such a claimed being inept or malicious.

But in a human rights point of view, I cannot hate individual people merely because they may hold a claim I hate. My mom is Catholic, but what might drive each other nuts about each other, religion would not be our first division. She is a neat freak, and well, there was a sit com called "Odd Couple" in which I would not be Felix. But we have never stopped  loving  each other.

But I warn about leaving people alone. It is not a matter of getting along, which all of humanity should want. Just as important as an individual's rights to make a claim, is the ability of others outside that claim to kick the tires.

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Chuckle

 

jcgadfly wrote:

Then again, the Sikhs would consider Pat an atheist so he just added himself to the list of suspects...

 

Excellent bit of droll...

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I definitely

 

KnockEmOuttt wrote:

I mostly agree with you, although I wouldn't say I hate God, nor do many (maybe even most) other atheists. I don't see how one can hate something that they don't believe in. 

 

hate the christian and muslim god concepts. I agree god doesn't exist. But the ideas of god these groups promote are profoundly distasteful. 

Curiously, before I found RRS I spent many years in private, seething atheism part of which manifested itself in an overwhelming and irrational desire to kill 'god'. I used to break into a sweat and shake with the strength of it.  

Perhaps as a former believer who grew up in a demented church family I found it more than usually easy to activate my god delusion, even if only for the momentary relief of imagining my fingers around its throat...

Needless to say, after a few years here talking to actual human beings of quirk and curiosity, I'm almost normal.

I can honestly say I've not fantasized about murdering any non existent gods these past 12 months.  

 

P.S. I know 3 other atheist PK's (preacher's kids). Each is the only atheist in their fundamentalist christian family and each is segregated by disbelief and expected to burn in hell. All loathe the purported nature of the monstrous christian god with visceral and consuming intensity unusual in non-believers. One is the cousin of my brother's wife and both her parents are loquacious pastors. At a family gathering, as the religious palaver flowed I could see the confusion and distaste writ large on her face. She turned to me at one especially galling point and said with feeling 'this is just total fucking bullshit'. She had tears in her eyes. I knew exactly how she felt. 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

KnockEmOuttt wrote:

I mostly agree with you, although I wouldn't say I hate God, nor do many (maybe even most) other atheists. I don't see how one can hate something that they don't believe in. 

 

I definitely hate the christian and muslim god concepts. I agree god doesn't exist. But the ideas of god these groups promote are profoundly distasteful. 

... ... ...

 

Atheistextremist sums up my feelings with his opening sentence quoted above.   I could easily hate the god christians and muslims claim they adore. 

KORAN, n.
A book which the Mohammedans foolishly believe to have been written by divine inspiration, but which Christians know to be a wicked imposture, contradictory to the Holy Scriptures. ~ The Devil's Dictionary


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 

P.S. I know 3 other atheist PK's (preacher's kids). Each is the only atheist in their fundamentalist christian family and each is segregated by disbelief and expected to burn in hell. All loathe the purported nature of the monstrous christian god with visceral and consuming intensity unusual in non-believers. One is the cousin of my brother's wife and both her parents are loquacious pastors. At a family gathering, as the religious palaver flowed I could see the confusion and distaste writ large on her face. She turned to me at one especially galling point and said with feeling 'this is just total fucking bullshit'. She had tears in her eyes. I knew exactly how she felt. 

 

 

Not a preacher's kid, but I DID grow up in a fanatically religious home and was fanatically religious. My situation is EXACTLY like you described above. I have to admit that I do hate the concepts of the god of christianity and islam.

I almost feel like the church stole all of my childhood and younger years. Every time I had a doubt or a qualm about  the teachings of the church, I got treated like some sort of leper and actually believed that I deserved it.

It is miserable when you are surrounded by nothing but religious people and they are all telling you that you are insane and evil for having doubts. The reason being, for a long time, I thought they were right. I remember during my teen years praying and praying for these doubts to be removed and when they intensified, I truly thought that I was damned to hell.

So yeah, maybe I don't  actually hate a non-existent deity in the sky, but I do HATE the doctrines that I feel have destroyed many lives.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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I loathe the religions

My background isn't so toxic, as my religious upbringing wasn't so totalitarian.

I still get a feeling of overwhelming revulsion though when I see the cynical, clearly man-made social manipulation inflicted by the religious. That's what it's all about.

 

Imagine living in a society where you have to pray five times a day.

Prayer rooms at work or school where everybody goes like sheep and if you do not attend, it will be noticed and you will suffer for it.

It'd be like living your only life in a prison.

 

 

 

 


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jcgadfly wrote: Then again,

jcgadfly wrote:

 Then again, the Sikhs would consider Pat an atheist so he just added himself to the list of suspects...

 

  How could someone who embraces a form of theistism ( Christianity ) be considered an atheist by someone else from another form of theism ( Sikhism ) ?    Do fans of the Washington Redskins not consider fans of the Green Bay Packers to also be football fans ...just because they embrace a different team ?

 

  The Sikhs may consider Pat Robertson to be guilty of worshiping the wrong god but that in no way places him within our atheist camp.  We are atheists because we reject the entire god concept as a whole, not because we selectively reject or embrace particular sects.  Theists may reject other forms of theism but they haven't forfeited their own god-belief, so they are not atheists.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


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Interesting point ..{the way they view one another}

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 

 

  The Sikhs may consider Pat Robertson to be guilty of worshiping the wrong god but that in no way places him within our atheist camp.  We are atheists because we reject the entire god concept as a whole, not because we selectively reject or embrace particular sects.  Theists may reject other forms of theism but they haven't forfeited their own god-belief, so they are not atheists.

   Interesting point. In their eyes they would see one another as idolatrious. I was reading of a more ancient religion. Kur is where the dead go, and where rebellious mountain gods, demons, and monsters are at home. Human enemies stood in defiance of the gods. Who had their own gods, so much the same.


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I feel for you on this

 

harleysportster wrote:

I remember during my teen years praying and praying for these doubts to be removed and when they intensified, I truly thought that I was damned to hell.

 

Harley - this is exactly me, too. I spent long years agonizing over my inability to put an end to my legitimate doubts. Personally, I just don't believe in invisible beings with agency of any sort at all. Further, original sin is really questioning priestly assertion. The act of learning implicit in the Tree of Knowledge mythology has been deliberately dressed up as the greatest possible sin that humans could perpetrate. It was not about ignoring what god said, it was about us being denied the right to know the truth. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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They got it easy

There I was complaining about five prayers a day.

They don't know they're born. It was supposed to be fifty, but good old Mo haggled it down to five.

 

Book 8, Bukhari Hadith: 227

 

http://islamactive.com/hadith/bukhari?id=8

Then I passed by Abraham and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Abraham.

The Prophet added, 'Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens."

Ibn Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?'

I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half.

When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced.

I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.'

I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.'

Then Gabriel took me till we '' reached Sidrat-il-Muntaha (Lote tree of; the utmost boundry) which was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk."