Is evil in the world and deep human suffering a valid atheist argument for the non existence of God? 

Jimenezj
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Is evil in the world and deep human suffering a valid atheist argument for the non existence of God? 

If there exists an extreme depth of ( evil-negative)  wickedness , then there must also be an extreme height of Love (good -positive)   This then is God. 
 
In the discipline of physics, a law 
States that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In this sense, excesses of wickedness like Auschwitz and other massacres prove God's existence. 

All deep human suffering is not a valid atheist argument but proof that there must be a Comforter to compensate for it. Much suffering is directly or indirectly God's punishment for sin. To deduce from such suffering that there is no God is to deny instrumentality . One might as easily prove that a child has no father by the fact that his father spanked him. 
Richard Wurmbrand

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Bob

To exist or not to exist , that is the question?
Read exodus again.

And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

"Cogito ergo sum"

The answer is logical .

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:The state of

Jimenezj wrote:
The state of a being is to exist . Exodus 3:14 To be, or not to be: that is the question?

Existence provides evidence of itself. So you're saying that Yahweh doesn't exist?

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Are you familiar with this wee lesson, Jim?

 

Jimenezj wrote:

To exist or not to exist , that is the question? Read exodus again. And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. "Cogito ergo sum" The answer is logical .

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/logical_fallacy_lesson_4_bald_assertion

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Jimenezj wrote:To exist or

Jimenezj wrote:
To exist or not to exist , that is the question? Read exodus again. And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. "Cogito ergo sum" The answer is logical .

You have no real grasp of Logic, sorry. God does not exist just because some ancient writers wrote what they believed about Him in Exodus. We don't even have good reason to believe the Moses character existed as described, let alone God.

Exodus does NOT contain the equivalent of Descartes famous phrase. It sounds more like what the old cartoon character Popeye used to sing "And I yam what I yam what I yam and I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam 'cause I yam what I yam..."

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Jimenezj wrote:God is a word

Jimenezj wrote:
God is a word title. Some people like the word force, power, energy And others like the word Jesus.

 

ummm no this is not a word game, jesus is the name of a person, his title is either christ (annointed), more specifically jesus is a character in the bible to whom some worship as a god or the son of god, god the title, is the title of a being that you claim exists. People who call it force, power or energy do not worship, give attributes to or assume that those things are living, intelligent beings, as it is claimed in the bible.

Second part is that you again, are claiming that an action or a state of being (as in being a wicked person) which to it's extreme.....is still an action or a state of being, however that opposite of that is again an action or a state of being, it is not a deity of any sorts. Your statement is illogical in it's conclusion.


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Bob

You said.
Exodus does NOT contain the equivalent of Descartes famous phrase.

Look at it again in translation .

I Am that I Am - English KJ
I Am who I Am- Hebrew MS
I Am He who exists.- Greek LXX

VS
I think therefore I Am
I think therefore I exist .

Explain why this is not logical.
I'm sure a inteligent scientist like yourself ,
has something better then Popeye.

We can go back to the problem with evil after
This.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:You said.

Jimenezj wrote:
You said. Exodus does NOT contain the equivalent of Descartes famous phrase. Look at it again in translation . I Am that I Am - English KJ I Am who I Am- Hebrew MS I Am He who exists.- Greek LXX VS I think therefore I Am I think therefore I exist . Explain why this is not logical. I'm sure a inteligent scientist like yourself , has something better then Popeye. We can go back to the problem with evil after This.

I'm not going to comment on the lack of interpretative consistency.  It is a known element of biblical paradigm.  I do, however, want to elaborate on my take of "Cogito ergo sum" or "I think, therefore I am".

The statement "I think, therefore I am" is an epistemological statement.  It doesn't necessarily pertain to existence, or rather, it is not intended to prove existence of itself.  It is a prelude to judging the certainty of any knowledge.  It is an indicator of doubt.  It is the only thing that you may ever be sure of, not of the existence, but of the fact that the consciousness performing the action of thinking and therefore existing, is the only 100% certain knowledge you will ever have.  

Read it as, DOUBT all else except for the fact that there is a consciousness performing a thought process (incidentally, the thought process is doubt). 

On the other hand, 

I am that I am is someone making an incoherent claim.  I would read that as, I am that which I am.  Or I am of my own nature, and that is because I have read a fair share of Eastern philosophy mumbo jumbo in my early wasted years.  

I am who I am, could at best be read... deal with it.  It is what it is, I'm not sure how this is an epic verse, or pivotal of any argument. 

I am He who exists, I would read as I am someone who exists, I touched on existence in an earlier post.  This is a rather redundant statement for someone that exists, to make.

Therefore, comparing a fundamental epistemological statement, with an inconsistent and incoherent translation is hardly an argument. 

Edit:

I know this was directed at Bob, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity.  I hope that answers your question.

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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It pertains to existence,

It pertains to existence, one way or another. You yourself said
It and contradicted yourself.

"thinking and therefore existing, is the only 100% certain knowledge you will ever have.  "

You said,

I am that I am is someone making an incoherent claim.  I would read that as, I am that which I am.  Or I am of my own nature.

the name is a two part name.
You identified the first part of the name.
The 2nd part is;
self existence .

We will see what Bob has to say.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:... for every

Jimenezj wrote:
... for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In this sense, excesses of wickedness like Auschwitz and other massacres prove God's existence.

So if you think there is an equal and opposite reaction to everything, you apparently also believe in an evil god, who balances out the "good" god.  Correct?

Also, you claim there is an answer to Epicurus' Riddle.  Would you mind providing it -- in your own words?
 

For reference, the Riddle goes:  

Quote:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

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Jimenezj wrote:It pertains

Jimenezj wrote:
It pertains to existence, one way or another. You yourself said It and contradicted yourself. "thinking and therefore existing, is the only 100% certain knowledge you will ever have.  " You said, I am that I am is someone making an incoherent claim.  I would read that as, I am that which I am.  Or I am of my own nature. the name is a two part name. You identified the first part of the name. The 2nd part is; self existence . We will see what Bob has to say.

Actually, what I said was:

"The statement "I think, therefore I am" is an epistemological statement.  It doesn't necessarily pertain to existence, or rather, it is not intended to prove existence of itself..."

In that it was not intended to be read as a declaration of existence, but that of knowledge.

Look, I don't expect you to understand, you obviously have made up your mind, but at least don't quote mine my posts.  I showed you why what you are trying to prove is disjointed and illogical.  Even if it was logical it has no merit relative to reality, but it would at least be something to ponder. 

I'm not responding to your posts for yourself, I don't think we're discussing from the same epistemic paradigm.  Rather, I'm doing so for whoever reads your posts, lest they think you may have something here.

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Jimenezj wrote:It pertains

Jimenezj wrote:
It pertains to existence, one way or another. You yourself said It and contradicted yourself. "thinking and therefore existing, is the only 100% certain knowledge you will ever have.  " You said, I am that I am is someone making an incoherent claim.  I would read that as, I am that which I am.  Or I am of my own nature. the name is a two part name. You identified the first part of the name. The 2nd part is; self existence . We will see what Bob has to say.

yet the problem still lies that you have not proven this god character, that you keep referring to, as actually existing outside the confines of a book. Just because it says he said these things does not mean that this god character actually exists. Much like various other characters in fiction and mythological book having stated things does not mean they actually exist. You have yet to PROVE with EVIDENCE that god exists.

 


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Jimenezj wrote:You said.

Jimenezj wrote:
You said. Exodus does NOT contain the equivalent of Descartes famous phrase. Look at it again in translation . I Am that I Am - English KJ I Am who I Am- Hebrew MS I Am He who exists.- Greek LXX VS I think therefore I Am I think therefore I exist . Explain why this is not logical. I'm sure a inteligent scientist like yourself , has something better then Popeye. We can go back to the problem with evil after This.

"I am" is NOT equivalent to "I think".  The Exodus quotes are simply God asserting that he exists, because he is what he is, whereas Descartes is deducing that he exists because he has that thought. NOT the same assertion at all. Where is Exodus referring to thinking??

It is "I exist" VS "I undeniably exist BECAUSE I have thoughts". Can you really not see the difference??? A naked claim VS a claim with supporting logic.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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Bob

I agree on your statement .

"The Exodus quotes are simply God asserting that he exists"


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If one

Jimenezj wrote:
If there exists an extreme depth of ( evil-negative)  wickedness , then there must also be an extreme height of Love (good -positive)   This then is God.    In the discipline of physics, a law  States that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In this sense, excesses of wickedness like Auschwitz and other massacres prove God's existence.  All deep human suffering is not a valid atheist argument but proof that there must be a Comforter to compensate for it. Much suffering is directly or indirectly God's punishment for sin. To deduce from such suffering that there is no God is to deny instrumentality . One might as easily prove that a child has no father by the fact that his father spanked him.  Richard Wurmbrand

Lords  it over others then God exists. Auschwitz etc. happened because someone appointed them self God over others. It goes on everyday. That's how the world works if that's the the Way/God one wants to be. All power seeking travels the same road, there's merely road blocks in the way. If one gets around all  the road blocks (other people) then you get some one like Hitler and company. That's how Bush and Cheney got the Iraq war going. They couldn't have done it any other other way.

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Old Seer wrote:That's how

Old Seer wrote:
That's how Bush and Cheney got the Iraq war going. 

 

  ...or JFK and later LBJ and our undeclared war in South East Asia.   58,000 dead American soldiers who died for nothing.

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ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Old Seer wrote:
That's how Bush and Cheney got the Iraq war going. 

 

  ...or JFK and later LBJ and our undeclared war in South East Asia.   58,000 dead American soldiers who died for nothing.

samo samo.

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Jimenezj wrote:I agree on

Jimenezj wrote:
I agree on your statement . "The Exodus quotes are simply God asserting that he exists"

I'd change this slightly to make it more correct.

"The Exodus quotes are simply the writers and editors of the book speaking for their picture of God asserting that their picture exists"

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jcgadfly wrote:Jimenezj

jcgadfly wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
I agree on your statement . "The Exodus quotes are simply God asserting that he exists"

I'd change this slightly to make it more correct.

"The Exodus quotes are simply the writers and editors of the book speaking for their picture of God asserting that their picture exists"

I would go one more step, and say that the exodus quotes are simply the statement of a fictional character written by the writers of the bible.


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I call into question (being

I call into question (being generous) every single claim in the OP and all I get in response is a verse from the most primitive book on Earth coupled with a quote from a long dead philosopher?

So disappointing.

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