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   Being that I'm causing to many threads to be hijacked I find it necessary to establish my own thread. I don't like the idea because in my world we don't engage much in self importance, a little but not much. And this seems to be getting into that area and I'm not comfortable with it.

   Another is- where do I start. so after a bit of deliberation it occurred to me, why not start it where we (our group) started in 1985, and that was with biblical creation.

 To us, as we learned over time, creation is not a material undertaking but rather spiritual. In 1985 we had no idea where this would lead. Personally I/we wasn't out to accomplish anything. It was a simple question given to a group of guys that were into various fields of life's work in which they made their monies for living as we all do, or at least in our case, did.  Having met one of them by a chance meeting as he passed through town we got into a conversation of various interest as people normally do. He informed me of his club/group and among then was a Physicist which peaked my interest as I am also a Physicist, at least to some degree (old school). At that time I was an Atheist considering JC to be a street magician making a living.

 I gave this "Smurf" several questions for The Physics Smurf (he referred to the group as a Smurfdom). The question was --creation doesn't match the laws of physics, things are out of order. And in giving my understanding of what it might be I gave a short list of my suspicions. The main suspicion was that it might be something spiritual because the bible mentions spirituals all over the place, and had no idea what it was all about.

 A few week later as he passed through town again he dropped of a packet at the place we met, a local eatery. I was informed they were going to take on an analysis of creation and that it was something they hadn't seen before, and the Physicist confirmed that it wasn't physics feasible---he sent it to the Psycho Smurfs, That's when it really took off in directions no one suspected.

 They determined it was something mental, and for whatever reason and how they saw it, it was a state of mind. Now here's the deal----IF, we are correct, this understanding of creation totally negates Christianity as is understood by the world. It literally destroys what is understood as Christianity. Because everything in the book is based and constructed and referred to from creation being the focal point. An Apostle refers to- those invisible things of creation which can be clearly seen, meaning- they recognize creation as a spiritual undertaking and that makes it a horse of a different color. As everything else in the book Christianity hinges on Creation, and Christianity is about spiritual things not material things. Then- there is no such thing as Christianity as an operating religion anywhere on planet earth.

Any questions are welcome. 

 

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Old Seer wrote:It will take

Old Seer wrote:

It will take you a while to understand. Hang in there.    Smiling

 

I have never been fond of playing with my toes in a corner.  You will have to find someone else to play with.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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Old Seer wrote:We're merely

Old Seer wrote:

We're merely giving out interpretation of a book/document. The difference it makes in one's life is it leads to an understand of one's own self. From that then one can be directed toward a peaceful life.

 

 

 If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.   (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

 

Just curious what you think of this passage - you say an understanding of the book will lead to a peaceful life. I say this book proposes evil as acceptable and warranted in many places..  Should your parents ever kill you? What is your hidden meaning metaphor for 'thrust him through"?

 

I think if you wanted to choose documents that lead to a peaceful life, a couple of better options would be Jain Agamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_Agamas) or Buddhist sutras.. They have far less rape, pillage, war and smiting.

 

 (edit: spelling)

 

 

 


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Ok

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

We're merely giving out interpretation of a book/document. The difference it makes in one's life is it leads to an understand of one's own self. From that then one can be directed toward a peaceful life.

 

 

 If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.   (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

 

Just curious what you think of this passage - you say an understanding of the book will lead to a peaceful life. I say this book proposes evil as acceptable and warranted in many places..  Should your parents ever kill you? What is your hidden meaning metaphor for 'thrust him through"?

 

I think if you wanted to choose documents that lead to a peaceful life, a couple of better options would be Jain Agamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_Agamas) or Buddhist sutras.. They have far less rape, pillage, war and smiting.

 

 (edit: spelling)

 

What you're dealing with there is the old testament. The OT isn't Christianity, it's the Hebrew civil system. This is the mistake the Europeans made/make.  If one is to go by the OT then there's no point in having the NT. The reason we see the Euros use the OT is because it matches "their" idea of controlling a society. All civilizations exist on the same premise, a few decide for the many. In "real/proper Christianity" it isn't so. There is no central government and authority and power seeking over others and is given up---voluntarily, because it is understood that civil government cannot maintain a peaceful people. No matter how altruistic a civilization begins it will always leaves doors open for the evil (more animalistic) ones in society to take over. On one hand the concept of "good and evil" is not understood, and at the same time it is evil to overtake and exert power over others. Civil peoples don't see power seeking over others as immoral. In Christianity it is. The precepts of civilization is the animal concepts of force and counter force. History repeats because the animal mentality will always produce the same results. Proper and true Christianity is the process of removing the animal concept and living with the good only. Instead of being controlled by a few that decide right and wrong, good and evil, one returns to the natural run of good and evil rather then living under contrived good and evil. Good and evil are natural consequences and one has only a limited say in whether a good or evil will come about. In Christianity it's natural good and evil that is understood to be God, not other people creating it for you. If you let others create good and evil then it's they that are God, as God is that which is all good and all that is evil. It amounts to nothing more then ourselves. If the deciding is left to a few then good and evil "is" us---is it not. Then- that's God/us.

As one can see then that "God" under Christianity is the opposite of what a Euro God is. God and "way" are one and the same.  Christianity is one "way", and civil authorities are the other "Way". One way is the animal forces and the other is the human forces.  Peace can only be obtained from "one" of the "Ways" -- and each is a way of thinking and "being". But one must understand that evil can be produced by good and good can be the consequence of evil and it is naturally that "way". So, Christianity is returning to the natural "way/God" and replacing the civil Way/God. This is actually the original concept before the Hebrews, known to be Adam or Adamites. The entire concept of Chrisitanity is based on returning to be as Adam. The Adamites were not under civilized authority. But- there is a difference between Adam #1 and #2, JC.

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Old Seer wrote:What you're

Old Seer wrote:

What you're dealing with there is the old testament. The OT isn't Christianity, it's the Hebrew civil system. This is the mistake the Europeans made/make.  If one is to go by the OT then there's no point in having the NT. The reason we see the Euros use the OT is because it matches "their" idea of controlling a society.

 

Old Seer wrote:

everything is due to creation. You'll find it's reference used throughout the book. The book of Ezrkial- the vision that includes the lion, eagle/vulture, calf, face. The lion in creation = creeping thing,cat,predator. The eagle,=fowls of the air/firmament, status. The calf=innocent party/people/worker/ox. The face= nimrod, phoney/liar/false front, false image, looking human but working the animal behind, the ruling class. This whole vision is symbolic of civilization. Namely, a class system run by liars.

 

You've previously used the old testament to provide examples of the hidden message. If you don't use it all, then you're just cherry picking. So my question stands - how does the Zechariah quote fit into your analysis?


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There are prophesies

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

What you're dealing with there is the old testament. The OT isn't Christianity, it's the Hebrew civil system. This is the mistake the Europeans made/make.  If one is to go by the OT then there's no point in having the NT. The reason we see the Euros use the OT is because it matches "their" idea of controlling a society.

 

 

 

Old Seer wrote:

everything is due to creation. You'll find it's reference used throughout the book. The book of Ezekiel- the vision that includes the lion, eagle/vulture, calf, face. The lion in creation = creeping thing,cat,predator. The eagle,=fowls of the air/firmament, status. The calf=innocent party/people/worker/ox. The face= nimrod, phony/liar/false front, false image, looking human but working the animal behind, the ruling class. This whole vision is symbolic of civilization. Namely, a class system run by liars.

 

You've previously used the old testament to provide examples of the hidden message. If you don't use it all, then you're just cherry picking. So my question stands - how does the Zechariah quote fit into your analysis?

 

(You have an excellent question. I'm glad you asked this)

in the OT and in Hebrew history that pertain to the coming of a Messiah and or the end times. But not all in the OT applies.

I can't see how your present OT passage is  reference is in conjunction with JC or the end times. But the Hebrew religion as a whole is dependent on Creation as the main construction point, as well as Christianity.

Here's one (off hand) Go to OT Mali chi Ch 2:3. The Levites/priests will have dung on their faces.

OK, here's how it works (bear in mind we do not know every last detail of the book), Once one reaches a certain amount of knowledge on what the book is about one sees the intended mission. In this case the dung on their faces pertains to the end time. The Levites were the priestly class/tribe in the construction of Hebrew society. As in the general use of anyone,s language their terminology is used. In this case- Levite is equal to religious leader or clergymen in  English. In the end time it is proven or shown that the world is on the wrong course--and who's leading the world---religious and secular leaders. When the people at large see the fallacy of how this is run the leaders will--have shit on there faces. It is a common term used today for a liar, hypocrite, or deceiver that's been exposed, and that is government and religious leaders the world over. With all their high kaflootinness not a single social problem has ever been solved---and over a time span of 6000 years. The knowledge of the book then, can be transferred to any society or civilization as all are constructed the same, and the propagation and maintenance is done by leaders, in today's world -religious and secular. But in the Hebrew society there was no secular as it was all religion---however, in the Hebrew mind there is no difference between civil and secular--they are both considered the same. And they are right. What we consider the "secular" is still a religion, and nothing more then the masses following those who've taken the place of God (overriding self rule). The purpose of those who lead in religion and civil government are exactly the same. Power over the masses prevails by belief--in any case- a belief in those who run the show. All religion of today is nothing but mini civilizations within the big circus tent. The Vatican has pulled the trick of creating itself as a mini civilization on religious grounds--it's all the same. Everyone one has become victims of terminology. Control of the masses partially is done by skewing words. Who controls the meaning of words controls the people.

Here's another for the end time---I will confound the wisdom of the wise and make fools out of the scholars. How many theologians are the in the world, and how long have there been theologians. The only reason there's theologians is because they haven't got it right. Consider the absurdity---people are following those who don't know. The same with government---all government has to operate on is---If.

I see all the book of Malachi as dealing with the end times. I can understand it but changing it from the Hebrew mentality to Euro mentality is mind boggling. The two thought processes and terminologies  are different. It's hell on wheels to translate it into Euro thinking.

The "I" in Malachi can be the same as--- the people of the end times--- as in Hebrew and Christianity it's people that are God. But Malachi is dealing with his own people but the undersatnding can be transferred to any on the planet. What goes for Hebrew society goes for all other societies, as they all involve the same components.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Old Seer wrote:No, as far as

Old Seer wrote:

No, as far as I can see we aren't inventing. We're merely giving out interpretation of a book/document. The difference it makes in one's life is it leads to an understand of one's own self. From that then one can be directed toward a peaceful life. Everyone has a peaceful side but is of little value if the world we live in has standard of enmity or war/competition. In essence we see that it will change the world course, or direction. Another term for Christianity would be , Adamism. But, Adamism wouldn't be a true definition of JC as they are simular but not the same. We would prefer a different term then Christianity. We have no idea what it could be changed to.  If the greater number change their life then the world changes. What does it change?---- To us the book is about changing from a human animal idea to separating out the human from the animal. Remove the animal as the values of relations and you have a different world. So the book has no such thing as a human animal, it's about being one or the other, and this means a mentality rather then a physical. That means that animal and human are states of mind not the body itself. Change the basis for thinking and the world is changed. What it does for the individual is---with understanding one can make the choice them self or at least understand what the worlds problems are caused by. That's all Christianity is about---extract the animal (or make it inert) and you have a different person, and then the greater number that make the change the world is changed.

I see, this is quite a Christian message in there. Be peaceful and change yourself and the world will change. Have it all neatly in contrast, human and animal side and mortify the animal side. Greater numbers will follow.

Well, no wonder Christian era is coming to an end. I see multiple problems with such a mindset. It doesn't really work, it has nothing to do with reality.

Firstly, human and animal nature are intertwined, almost inseparable. It is a question of degree of one and the other in a person. Plus of course there are the modern frontal brain lobes, older mammalian brain, ancient reptile brain and neurologists know what else. None of that is going away any time soon.

Secondly, getting rid of animal mentality is definitely a bad thing. It is a very valuable asset that must be controlled and wisely used. It is possible to remove a large part of this animal side of us, but then you get people like me or the Silicon Valley crew or even the Sheldon Cooper character, with Asperger's syndrome and social skills of Commander Data a week after first switching on. Either you have badly defined what the human and animal nature means, or how to get to it. Or both. It does not mean getting rid of a part of us, it means gaining control over that part and using it properly. Then it can be called human. Be grateful that you were born with it, some weren't.

Thirdly, more peace is the last thing we need right now. Changing ourselves is fine, but there are people who will never change themselves, only take advantage of others' passivity to stay in power indefinitely. Right now we need to protest and dislodge a small minority of thieves and liars that rule us. Believe it or not, the EU president Barroso wants to investigate (and arrest) my PM for stealing among other things, from EU grant funds and that's just a tip of the iceberg. And the global climatic clock is ticking. We don't have time, there's an emergency. Peacefulness is right now a bad idea, you should leave it to past Christian centuries. 

Every age has around 2000 years to develop its civilization. Overall, you demonstrate thinking in the outdated passive and sentimental ways, typical for the age of Pisces. Such a philosophy was useful for geting people to dream about the high ideals of charity and good will, but time has come to manifest these ideals in practice, not to keep dreaming. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Nope nope nope

Luminon wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

No, as far as I can see we aren't inventing. We're merely giving out interpretation of a book/document. The difference it makes in one's life is it leads to an understand of one's own self. From that then one can be directed toward a peaceful life. Everyone has a peaceful side but is of little value if the world we live in has standard of enmity or war/competition. In essence we see that it will change the world course, or direction. Another term for Christianity would be , Adamism. But, Adamism wouldn't be a true definition of JC as they are simular but not the same. We would prefer a different term then Christianity. We have no idea what it could be changed to.  If the greater number change their life then the world changes. What does it change?---- To us the book is about changing from a human animal idea to separating out the human from the animal. Remove the animal as the values of relations and you have a different world. So the book has no such thing as a human animal, it's about being one or the other, and this means a mentality rather then a physical. That means that animal and human are states of mind not the body itself. Change the basis for thinking and the world is changed. What it does for the individual is---with understanding one can make the choice them self or at least understand what the worlds problems are caused by. That's all Christianity is about---extract the animal (or make it inert) and you have a different person, and then the greater number that make the change the world is changed.

I see, this is quite a Christian message in there. Be peaceful and change yourself and the world will change. Have it all neatly in contrast, human and animal side and mortify the animal side. Greater numbers will follow.

Well, no wonder Christian era is coming to an end. I see multiple problems with such a mindset. It doesn't really work, it has nothing to do with reality.

Firstly, human and animal nature are intertwined, almost inseparable. It is a question of degree of one and the other in a person. Plus of course there are the modern frontal brain lobes, older mammalian brain, ancient reptile brain and neurologists know what else. None of that is going away any time soon.

Secondly, getting rid of animal mentality is definitely a bad thing. It is a very valuable asset that must be controlled and wisely used. It is possible to remove a large part of this animal side of us, but then you get people like me or the Silicon Valley crew or even the Sheldon Cooper character, with Asperger's syndrome and social skills of Commander Data a week after first switching on. Either you have badly defined what the human and animal nature means, or how to get to it. Or both. It does not mean getting rid of a part of us, it means gaining control over that part and using it properly. Then it can be called human. Be grateful that you were born with it, some weren't.

Thirdly, more peace is the last thing we need right now. Changing ourselves is fine, but there are people who will never change themselves, only take advantage of others' passivity to stay in power indefinitely. Right now we need to protest and dislodge a small minority of thieves and liars that rule us. Believe it or not, the EU president Barroso wants to investigate (and arrest) my PM for stealing among other things, from EU grant funds and that's just a tip of the iceberg. And the global climatic clock is ticking. We don't have time, there's an emergency. Peacefulness is right now a bad idea, you should leave it to past Christian centuries. 

Every age has around 2000 years to develop its civilization. Overall, you demonstrate thinking in the outdated passive and sentimental ways, typical for the age of Pisces. Such a philosophy was useful for geting people to dream about the high ideals of charity and good will, but time has come to manifest these ideals in practice, not to keep dreaming. 

 You're doing great, see, Alpha Smurf knows what he's doing, he says you here are intelligent and you're proving him right. Lets go one at a time.

1- Yes that's the idea, but people have to learn first. The object is to take people away from the leaders and let them decide life on their own. Yes we know---there will be huge consequences to pay for doing so. Ask any Psycho dude. We already know that. right now we are the most dangerous floks on the planet. Hang in there, you will see. We are giving the power to you all. Be patient.

2- Christian era ending---you mean the Euro version---that never was Christianity. The Euro idea is garbage.

3- Animal entity. I posted an answer to this on another thread. No, you can't get rid of the Animal. Even JC retained the animal when he drove the money changers out of temple. The animal is your protector and defender---you need it, and can't get rid of it, that's understood. But--- they can be separated. I do it every day and you do too once in a while and more often then you know of. They are merely present within the same entity, but one is not the other. Human-animal is a trick of terminology. One cannot be both at the same time, only one at any given instant or time. The next time you feel to attack someone (verbally) stop and think first, do you have to? No. you can opt to go the other can you not. Attack is from the animal side and if you can decide to put it away and treat the situation humanely---then they are separable. You do it all the time, we all do. "PROPER" Christianity is this very process.  Cage the animal and you have a different world. Civil government keeps you animal, it's existence depends on it. Cage the animal and civilization ceases to exist. An animal society cannot be fixed. From the animal comes the evils upon each other. Agression cannot heal agression. You partially answers the question for yourself.  Good job.   Smiling

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Noah's Ark

I see in the ad margin on the site ---Noah,s ark was not a boat. We agree. Here is an example of how creation is the common denominator. We've known this for years.

To begin with the interest is Chapter 7.  Notice how the info mimics Creation. So, what is going on here. We have a fortress-like construction, heavy timber , for the purpose of protection.

What are the beasts of the earth etc. It's storing documents, very likely history or explanations of society. The only way the story of Noah could be put in the book is if there were records kept of the times.

 The going version of Noah is that two of every animal was taken into the ark. That's an impossiblitie. There's no way all that could fit into that sized area. Then you'll also notice the seven by sevens. That has never been explained because it doesn't fit the physical mentality of the Euros. They only understand sexual conotations. The number 7 goes with creation, I admit that we didn't study Noah to come up with the true meaning of all this, but this is what it is about

 Remember the post where I pointed out that waters is the mind in creation. The waters of the time of Noah is a mentality. The flood is, the people became so evil they flooded over with hate and killed each other off. What I mean to show is--this book is about how people think and it's consequences . Noah warned them for many years before the kill off. He knew where it all would lead and end. Alpha Smurf also knows. You have no choice at this time, you are headed to the same outcome. We see it and are trying to tell you. A change has to be made.

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After another look-over

GodsUseForAMosquito wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

We're merely giving out interpretation of a book/document. The difference it makes in one's life is it leads to an understand of one's own self. From that then one can be directed toward a peaceful life.

 

 

 If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.   (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

 

Just curious what you think of this passage - you say an understanding of the book will lead to a peaceful life. I say this book proposes evil as acceptable and warranted in many places..  Should your parents ever kill you? What is your hidden meaning metaphor for 'thrust him through"?

 

I think if you wanted to choose documents that lead to a peaceful life, a couple of better options would be Jain Agamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_Agamas) or Buddhist sutras.. They have far less rape, pillage, war and smiting.

 

 (edit: spelling)

 

I say this passage is a prophesy. It would apply after Armageddon. at which time religion is finalized. That is-- it is understood there is no precept that any other religion would be recognized by those remaining. I doubt that The "killing" referred to is an actual physical event. After Armageddon the remaining are highly humane and not likely to need physical measures. If any stand up and try to create a new religion or draw people to him/her self would be laughed down. The preacher would have to be a phony. The passage doesn't fit well in the Hebrew context as their religion was finalized and it's not likely anyone would try to create a new one. In there time they probably would kill someone for doing their own preaching---they killed JC- right. But it seems more prophesy then Hebrew law---it could be law though, but I can't see it.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Old Seer wrote: You're

Old Seer wrote:

 You're doing great, see, Alpha Smurf knows what he's doing, he says you here are intelligent and you're proving him right. Lets go one at a time.

1- Yes that's the idea, but people have to learn first. The object is to take people away from the leaders and let them decide life on their own. Yes we know---there will be huge consequences to pay for doing so. Ask any Psycho dude. We already know that. right now we are the most dangerous floks on the planet. Hang in there, you will see. We are giving the power to you all. Be patient.

 

All right, how will people know what to do with their life? You or I may be educated enough, but people just love someone who tells them what to do. And there is nothing wrong with leaders as such, it is wrong to have separated leaders. Leaders on a completely different economic level, who will be well off whatever happens, whatever decisions they make. I learned in my electronics lessons that every regulator device needs a positive and negative feedback from the system that it regulates, it must be literally in touch with the system. We elevate our leaders, that's wrong.

What will be the huge consequences? How it could be any worse than what is globally happening every year?

Old Seer wrote:
 2- Christian era ending---you mean the Euro version---that never was Christianity. The Euro idea is garbage.
Not just the Euro idea, the passivity of far East as well. Millions of Hindus stay poor and put up with bad government decisions because they fatalistically believe that karma of past lives made them poor and so they are supposed to stay poor. (which doesn't make sense, how are they supposed to be ever born richer after serving the karma, if the current poor stay poor???) It's not so different from Church promises of eternal Heaven if we obey and pray in this world. This is all a big illusion that humanity believed for past millenia. Or a story, if you want. Now we need a completely different story, close to reality but catchy enough for masses. 

Past ages made us diverse, but separated. Today we need to develop unity in diversity. Unity means communication and cooperation, not homogenity. Internet is a great help in this. The upcoming age will be very much about cooperation and group-focused thinking, not individual-focused competition, whether these individuals are people, churches or nations. 

Old Seer wrote:
 3- Animal entity. I posted an answer to this on another thread. No, you can't get rid of the Animal. Even JC retained the animal when he drove the money changers out of temple. The animal is your protector and defender---you need it, and can't get rid of it, that's understood. But--- they can be separated. I do it every day and you do too once in a while and more often then you know of. They are merely present within the same entity, but one is not the other. Human-animal is a trick of terminology. One cannot be both at the same time, only one at any given instant or time. The next time you feel to attack someone (verbally) stop and think first, do you have to? No. you can opt to go the other can you not. Attack is from the animal side and if you can decide to put it away and treat the situation humanely---then they are separable. You do it all the time, we all do. "PROPER" Christianity is this very process.  Cage the animal and you have a different world. Civil government keeps you animal, it's existence depends on it. Cage the animal and civilization ceases to exist. An animal society cannot be fixed. From the animal comes the evils upon each other. Agression cannot heal agression. You partially answers the question for yourself.  Good job.   Smiling

Good job too, buttering me up Smiling I have to do a lot of thinking and searching in this, because my animal instinct, right hemisphere and emotionality doesn't quite work right. I've poked in the inner workings of mind and I saw that this is basically a mechanism. Not a human-animal, but a machine-animal combination. We enjoy when it works and when it doesn't, we invent lies and cover stories to make such living acceptable. This is the personality, or ego. It's not really genuine, it's a mask that covers and integrates all the inner processes, but it keeps us going and working, that's why we need it. However, in my experience this is not all that makes up one human being, there's much more, a hidden potential.

So, what do you propose as an alternative to a civil government? As a student of public administration and former programmer, I have faith in a well-designed system. We often overlook the fact that our world is full of well-designed systems, with exception of the government, schooling and Windows.

 

Btw, according to my information waters usually mean not mind, but emotionality. It really is a mind, as most of people know it. Mostly we don't think, we create emotional qualia and call it thinking. Most of people really think when they intentionally work on some problem. This emotionality we share with animals, it is such a strong heritage, that humanity is almost completely dominated by it. In this context it applies on baptism of Jesus, that's symbolizing the stage where a person masters this part of our nature. However, things like Great flood and earlier waters of creation, that's all taken from Sumerian legends. The books of Old Testament contain almost nothing mystical, but a lot of Sumerian material. I think you overestimate Bible. If Noah's story has a deeper meaning, what doesn't? 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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No buttering

Luminon wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

 You're doing great, see, Alpha Smurf knows what he's doing, he says you here are intelligent and you're proving him right. Lets go one at a time.

1- Yes that's the idea, but people have to learn first. The object is to take people away from the leaders and let them decide life on their own. Yes we know---there will be huge consequences to pay for doing so. Ask any Psycho dude. We already know that. right now we are the most dangerous floks on the planet. Hang in there, you will see. We are giving the power to you all. Be patient.

 

All right, how will people know what to do with their life? You or I may be educated enough, but people just love someone who tells them what to do. And there is nothing wrong with leaders as such, it is wrong to have separated leaders. Leaders on a completely different economic level, who will be well off whatever happens, whatever decisions they make. I learned in my electronics lessons that every regulator device needs a positive and negative feedback from the system that it regulates, it must be literally in touch with the system. We elevate our leaders, that's wrong.

What will be the huge consequences? How it could be any worse than what is globally happening every year?

Old Seer wrote:
 2- Christian era ending---you mean the Euro version---that never was Christianity. The Euro idea is garbage.
Not just the Euro idea, the passivity of far East as well. Millions of Hindus stay poor and put up with bad government decisions because they fatalistically believe that karma of past lives made them poor and so they are supposed to stay poor. (which doesn't make sense, how are they supposed to be ever born richer after serving the karma, if the current poor stay poor???) It's not so different from Church promises of eternal Heaven if we obey and pray in this world. This is all a big illusion that humanity believed for past millenia. Or a story, if you want. Now we need a completely different story, close to reality but catchy enough for masses. 

Past ages made us diverse, but separated. Today we need to develop unity in diversity. Unity means communication and cooperation, not homogenity. Internet is a great help in this. The upcoming age will be very much about cooperation and group-focused thinking, not individual-focused competition, whether these individuals are people, churches or nations. 

Old Seer wrote:
 3- Animal entity. I posted an answer to this on another thread. No, you can't get rid of the Animal. Even JC retained the animal when he drove the money changers out of temple. The animal is your protector and defender---you need it, and can't get rid of it, that's understood. But--- they can be separated. I do it every day and you do too once in a while and more often then you know of. They are merely present within the same entity, but one is not the other. Human-animal is a trick of terminology. One cannot be both at the same time, only one at any given instant or time. The next time you feel to attack someone (verbally) stop and think first, do you have to? No. you can opt to go the other can you not. Attack is from the animal side and if you can decide to put it away and treat the situation humanely---then they are separable. You do it all the time, we all do. "PROPER" Christianity is this very process.  Cage the animal and you have a different world. Civil government keeps you animal, it's existence depends on it. Cage the animal and civilization ceases to exist. An animal society cannot be fixed. From the animal comes the evils upon each other. Agression cannot heal agression. You partially answers the question for yourself.  Good job.   Smiling

Good job too, buttering me up Smiling I have to do a lot of thinking and searching in this, because my animal instinct, right hemisphere and emotionality doesn't quite work right. I've poked in the inner workings of mind and I saw that this is basically a mechanism. Not a human-animal, but a machine-animal combination. We enjoy when it works and when it doesn't, we invent lies and cover stories to make such living acceptable. This is the personality, or ego. It's not really genuine, it's a mask that covers and integrates all the inner processes, but it keeps us going and working, that's why we need it. However, in my experience this is not all that makes up one human being, there's much more, a hidden potential.

So, what do you propose as an alternative to a civil government? As a student of public administration and former programmer, I have faith in a well-designed system. We often overlook the fact that our world is full of well-designed systems, with exception of the government, schooling and Windows.

 

Btw, according to my information waters usually mean not mind, but emotionality. It really is a mind, as most of people know it. Mostly we don't think, we create emotional qualia and call it thinking. Most of people really think when they intentionally work on some problem. This emotionality we share with animals, it is such a strong heritage, that humanity is almost completely dominated by it. In this context it applies on baptism of Jesus, that's symbolizing the stage where a person masters this part of our nature. However, things like Great flood and earlier waters of creation, that's all taken from Sumerian legends. The books of Old Testament contain almost nothing mystical, but a lot of Sumerian material. I think you overestimate Bible. If Noah's story has a deeper meaning, what doesn't? 

 We don't work from that basis. There are only two possible basics to interpret anything, it is either founded on material or spiritual evidence. The spiritual is evidence of "person". The interpretation of anything extends from the mind. To interpret Human it must come form the mind in terms of Humane and inhumane which are matters of one's own person. Yourself is the evidence that one exists. The book is nothing more then dealing with that evidence. The book deals with your personal makeup and as to what it is. The ancients already had it understood long before we were here.  We are merely giving our interpretation of the book which is not the same as the Popes. We don't need to be buttering anyone. Give credit to whom credit is due. We're only trying to be human---our way. If we're not believed then we're not. We feel we have an obligation to forward ours if we see it correct. We don't feel anyone is obligated to believe us. When meeting in Arizona last April I met the new Psycho Smurf. He was amazed at the negativity and brash character of Atheists. According to him we're right---the animal rules.

 

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I'm taking

  another vacation from retirement. Got some traveling to do. Lotsa miles to put on.


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Old Seer wrote:  another

Old Seer wrote:

  another vacation from retirement. Got some traveling to do. Lotsa miles to put on.

Nothing like the freedom of the open road. At least, from a two-wheel perspective on a bike. Pure Zen. If such a thing as Zen actually existed.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Babylon the Great

Old Seer wrote:

  another vacation from retirement. Got some traveling to do. Lotsa miles to put on.

What the deuce izzit, you may ask?  (Well maybe you ain't asking but I'll explain it anyways for those who it may be of interest, and for the sake of those who may want to be bored---again). 

It's civilization. And according to the book civilization is destroyed at the end times. HOWEVER- The book is Hebrew and things may have to be explained from their point of reference.  The Apostles also remained in the Hebrew context in their writings. One thing is for sure---the Book of Revelation need not be understood and isn't necessary to even understand. If it wouldn't have been written it wouldn't make any difference. The end times can be discerned from their other writings and from the Old Testament. What we have here is one mans symbolic viewpoint which can be hard to understand. As usual in any Hebrew writing it has to be taken into account that Shakespeare didn't write it---so it's not written in common European sequences and/or terms. Shakespeare wasn't a Hebrew (so to speak).

  When it comes to the original Hebrew religion civilization is a no no. (We're not dealing with Europeans in this deal) Civilization is a religion----and cannot be incorporated into Hebrew religion. Civilization is about the "carnal" (flesh mind)(body worship) while the Adam was spiritual minded. The original Hebrew religion is extracted from Adam, who recognized "the person" as a spiritual entity not the physical as the person. IF/WHEN. one changes from recognition of each other from spiritual to carnal Adam ceases to exist---the person reverts back to what they were before becoming Adam, which is technically an animal entity, as the animal is recognized from a physical point of view/mentality. What this means is- no one ever sees the other physically, you can only recognize each other by "personality". BUT, one can know another by understanding the way another thinks---but no one can see your person physically. This is the basis of the original Hebrew religion. That is why their couldn't express their God/way in stone, wood or pictures---because you cannot draw "you". (try it). Therefore then--their God was "the self". That also means --that's exactly what Adam was--- a person of "the self', and, what manner of self one is. Adam is not a singular person, but rather a "people" we call the "Adamites. The Adamites span the book from creation to the institution of civilization by------Nimrod.

Nimrod---The beginning of his kingdom was called Babel, and this, is the fall of the Adamites. Nimrod plays the harlot with other religious ideas, and--sets himself up (by deception) as ----that's right---GOD. Instead of Yahweh the person ruling---the rule now becomes exterior---the flesh--materialism, business and money making.  Exterior entities can only rule the masses if they get control of----your body. So, instead of you ruling you---you relegate your life to be decided and regulated by a few, them.  Instead of Adam being ruled by his own human self--he falls (becomes civilized) and becomes ruled by the animalism if the "few". To be Adam one cannot be ruled by another---as Adam seeks no rulership over others, therefore then the one engaging in being the "ruler" also cannot be Adam, as Adam is a free entity and to attempt to rule over another degrades the self from being one of Adam to a lower form----animal.

As it has been said as Nimrod a mighty hunter before the lord. The "lord" in this case ios the people---who realized they became as Nimrod in a system of predation upon one another. Under a rulership, or leadership all become as the ruler---it doesn't work any other way. "Hunter" in the case is "predator", the lion, which you see prevalent in the symbols of civilization. This is what "Babylon the Great" is---and in Hebrew terms an abomination, because it destroys person,s being and replaces it with that according to what the rulers want, that is why Alpha Smurf knows---you are all made by the State.  You are only a free  entity within the box created for you.

  So--what is Christianity---it's nothing more then Adam--- a return t the original but with some changes. The original Hebrew religion was ---the same as Christianity. The Hebrews were promised a Messiah, and that was because they lost the original religion, and the only way back was for someone to come and show it. Over the course of their history they accumulated many enemies, so the Messiah to them became someone to  conquer their enemies rather then return them to their original religion. The institution of civilization by Nimrod caused a loss of that original Adam that they were supposed to remain with/in.  Bear in mind that JC came as a messiah for the Hebrews on the first count, but can be spread to anywhere people have the ability to reason. What goes for Hebrews also goes for everyone else.

Is Christianity/Adam against civilization?   Let's have a look . goto- Ephesians 6:12. What this is about is a movement against civil governing.   For we wrestle not against flesh and blood (the physical)(this also has to do with the 6-6-6), but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.<----who's that. The rulers of the world will point to this as being Satan out in space somewhere---but not them. But as JC says---Satan is the God/Way of this world---pray tell-who runs the world, it's people in high places, right. I remember in the mid 90s (I think) Prince Chucky of England spoke this very passage at a ceremony. I remember thinking that, hey Chuck, that's you. You'll notice that anything  that's attached to evil isn't them.

     

 

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Babylon the Great

Old Seer wrote:

  another vacation from retirement. Got some traveling to do. Lotsa miles to put on.

What the deuce izzit, you may ask?  (Well maybe you ain't asking but I'll explain it anyways for those who it may be of interest, and for the sake of those who may want to be bored---again). 

It's civilization. And according to the book civilization is destroyed at the end times. HOWEVER- The book is Hebrew and things may have to be explained from their point of reference.  The Apostles also remained in the Hebrew context in their writings. One thing is for sure---the Book of Revelation need not be understood and isn't necessary to even understand. If it wouldn't have been written it wouldn't make any difference. The end times can be discerned from their other writings and from the Old Testament. What we have here is one mans symbolic viewpoint which can be hard to understand. As usual in any Hebrew writing it has to be taken into account that Shakespeare didn't write it---so it's not written in common European sequences and/or terms. Shakespeare wasn't a Hebrew (so to speak).

  When it comes to the original Hebrew religion civilization is a no no. (We're not dealing with Europeans in this deal at the moment) Civilization is a religion----and cannot be incorporated into Hebrew religion. Civilization is about the "carnal" (flesh mind)(body worship) while the Adam was spiritual minded. The original Hebrew religion is extracted from Adam, who recognized "the person" as a spiritual entity not the physical as the person. IF/WHEN. one changes from recognition of each other from spiritual to carnal Adam ceases to exist---the person reverts back to what they were before becoming Adam, which is technically an animal entity, as the animal is recognized from a physical point of view/mentality. What this means is- no one ever sees the other physically, you can only recognize each other by "personality". BUT, one can know another by understanding the way another thinks---but no one can see your person physically. This is the basis of the original Hebrew religion. That is why their couldn't express their God/way in stone, wood or pictures---because you cannot draw "you". (try it). Therefore then--their God was "the self". That also means --that's exactly what Adam was--- a person of "the self', and, what manner of self one is. Adam is not a singular person, but rather a "people" we call the "Adamites. The Adamites span the book from creation to the institution of civilization by------Nimrod.

Nimrod---The beginning of his kingdom was called Babel, and this, is the fall of the Adamites. Nimrod plays the harlot with other religious ideas, and--sets himself up (by deception) as ----that's right---GOD. Instead of Yahweh the person ruling---the rule now becomes exterior---the flesh--materialism, business and money making.  Exterior entities can only rule the masses if they get control of----your body. So, instead of you ruling you---you relegate your life to be decided and regulated by a few, them.  Instead of Adam being ruled by his own human self--he falls (becomes civilized) and becomes ruled by the animalism if the "few". To be Adam one cannot be ruled by another---as Adam seeks no rulership over others, therefore then the one engaging in being the "ruler" also cannot be Adam, as Adam is a free entity and to attempt to rule over another degrades the self from being one of Adam to a lower form----animal.

As it has been said as Nimrod a mighty hunter before the lord. The "lord" in this case ios the people---who realized they became as Nimrod in a system of predation upon one another. Under a rulership, or leadership all become as the ruler---it doesn't work any other way. "Hunter" in the case is "predator", the lion, which you see prevalent in the symbols of civilization. This is what "Babylon the Great" is---and in Hebrew terms an abomination, because it destroys person,s being and replaces it with that according to what the rulers want, that is why Alpha Smurf knows---you are all made by the State.  You are only a free  entity within the box created for you.

  So--what is Christianity---it's nothing more then Adam--- a return t the original but with some changes. The original Hebrew religion was ---the same as Christianity. The Hebrews were promised a Messiah, and that was because they lost the original religion, and the only way back was for someone to come and show it. Over the course of their history they accumulated many enemies, so the Messiah to them became someone to  conquer their enemies rather then return them to their original religion. The institution of civilization by Nimrod caused a loss of that original Adam that they were supposed to remain with/in.  Bear in mind that JC came as a messiah for the Hebrews on the first count, but can be spread to anywhere people have the ability to reason. What goes for Hebrews also goes for everyone else.

Is Christianity/Adam against civilization?   Let's have a look . goto- Ephesians 6:12. What this is about is a movement against civil governing.   For we wrestle not against flesh and blood (the physical)(this also has to do with the 6-6-6), but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.<----who's that. The rulers of the world will point to this as being Satan out in space somewhere---but not them. But as JC says---Satan is the God/Way of this world---pray tell-who runs the world, it's people in high places, right. I remember in the mid 90s (I think) Prince Chucky of England spoke this very passage at a ceremony. I remember thinking that, hey Chuck, that's you. You'll notice that anything  that's attached to evil isn't them.

     

 

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The 6-6-6

What's the deal with this deal. Well, it's simpler then one may suspect. Again we need to look at this from the Hebrew mentality. the Book of Revelation doesn't span history as claimed/commonly thought---it's the entire time of the end, which is nothing more then the end of our man-made world, and returning to the natural, which also means returning to our natural selves/selfs. And, that doesn't mean running around with no clothes.

One needs to go to the Hebrew numerical alphabet and ---of course the number 6. The 6 is the same as hook, nail, which in this case is "flesh hook".  Flesh hooks is what the high priests of the temple used to turn over the "roast". It's a short set of three hooks on a short handle to get a hold of the hot meat so as to not scorch the fingers-and chest depending upon how clumsy one is.. You'll notice that Moses instituted food safety and cleanliness laws (just like today)to keep floks healthy. When they came out of Egypt they had no laws so Moses saw to it that they got some. They couldn't eat hog at all because hogs don't live a very clean life and wallow in all sorts of diseases, so pork was a no go from the get go, except today that's all changed right. The little piggies are raised in a pretty clean environment---to make them Kosher. You won't convince the Hebrews of today on that idea but ,hey, they can have it that way---right, this is supposed to be a free country to some degree yet anyways, but sinking fast..  Keep the "flesh hook" in mind.

Goto Thessalonians 2: 3 and to where ever it takes you. I won't enter it because I'm to damn lazy to type all that.

1- man of sin. Not a singular person but "the masses". (spirituals are normally multiples)(there's lotsa bodies but only one spiritual---that's why the Hebrews say there only one God-and they're right, at least in their concept of Gog/Being) Revealed-means "appearance". Namely when the masses gain a tendency to go awry, according to the book government is gone or inert. This is when the people start becoming very evil (and it becomes seen) and get in the mode of self destruction. Take into account that JC comes as knowledge not as a physical personage, but rather, an understanding of a particular manner of personage, properly human, the same as "Knowledge of God", which is the same as knowledge of "the self".  The whole Book of Rev. happens because this knowledge finally arrives and makes monkeys out of the PP&A. (Power, Principality and Authority structure), mainly because they could never fix this deal (it's an impossibility) and they get hit straight in the face and----end up with shit on their faces. (as per a previous post). The answer is very simple--put away the human animal concept, and continue on with the human concept and----kachaw, problem solved. (is this book beginning to make sense now) The "falling away" is---the people falling away from the solution and go back to preferring the old way, of which is not possible because no one will submit to the authority of another, and cannot agree on how to make it work after it's (government) been dissolved.

2-Temple of God---in this case is your body and mind which contains "You" "God". In this case they create evil as God as on the first count evil was left off on after the coming of the word/knowledge. And, as JC points out--Satan/Evil is the God/Way of this world and then they want to go back but think they can do it without human elements attached. Man of Sin is equal to "Hooked"<--- on the Flesh, and no longer on the spiritual. The 666 is the PP&A

Other insights

Micheal and the Dragon- a war of the self, to throw out evil and install good. Michael is the same as a spiritual element of each person. This is also the same as the tribulation (another explanation of it) where one has to decide which way they want to be. Either the Dragon wins or Michael does. It's a personal battle.

Strong Angel--the equivalent today is, strong message, as angel can also mean messenger. There's nothing new under the sun/knowledge.

 

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Clarification of 666.

Powers , principalities and authorities, or what we refer to the PP&A.  P=6  P=6  A=6 which is "flesh hook", or hooked on the flesh. That means that they go back (or attempt to) recognize each other through the flesh, as in, a return to the "carnal". Man of sin is a condition, or in this case "people of sin. Sin is nothing more then one being degraded from human to animal. This condition leads to Armageddon because the way back to civilization will be impossible, (there are no police forces at that time. The police have to make the same decision as everyone else) but they try and fail. It's a shoot out between all parties but the ones changed (to human) go into hiding until it's over, and the OT refers to- after a while it will be as though they have never been.

 

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The Hebrew tent and temple.

Our interpretation is---the tent that they carried and assembled in their trek through the desert is a replica of the "inner self" We're not sure (at this point and haven't resolved this as far as I know)---> The outer tenting may represent the body, as the outer wall of the temple is of the same. The inner is the self/personage. The sacred sanctuary containing the ark is symbolic of the mind or spiritual and contains the things of importance---as in I will write the law (creation) into their hearts and minds), as in, the tablets in the ark of stone represent the law within the mind. The vail (slightly transparent) in front of the sanctuary represents a "fog" or not able to see clearly, as in, the knowledge of God is vague or sometimes seen but not recognized. The Knowledge of God splits the vail allowing one to see the self and others----upon after which no one can hide from another-this is akin to the fig leaf covering after the fall of Adam, to hide the self from others, which disallows another to see one,s own true nature (everyone does it)(it's also the "liar' being symbolized by the face in the symbol of civilization. (remember in a previous post I pointed out that civilization is a fools parade and liars paradise-everyone is hiding from everyone). At the fall they become naked and ashamed while before they were open and had nothing to hide. They were then clothed with skins(took on an animal appearance). So the tent and Temple were constructed on an understanding of "the self and/or proper mankind". To be human is a higher state then the animal---to be a human animal one retains the lower state. This is why civilization can never be fixed. Animal is animal and cannot be human, and to claim to be human while in the animal state is a lie. Politicians rely on this concept to remain favored by the masses. The world relies on this hidden animal idea mistaking it to be human because of higher intellect. Intellect is neither human nor inhuman and a neutral which can be applied to either. Split the vail and everything falls apart.

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I went over this

peto verum wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

The spirit would then be a product or derivative of the brain but not the brain itself, or, that which the brain produces as a person. We don't claim to know "how" the brain produces a person or the spiritual, and, it may be something that is material. The universe may very well contain only material and the term spiritual may be an explanation of something not seen. But what is agreed upon is that the body is not the person, and the person resides in the brain, and what is in the brain is the person. Of course the brain contains more then a person, there may well be other things in the brain, but aren't person.

I'm trying to understand the above.  The brain spawns off the person/spirit and once that happens it is no longer necessary to associate the person/spirit with that brain or body?    I think this article addresses my views fairly closely.   http://www.michaelshermer.com/2012/07/aunt-millies-mind/

Article again. We disagree that consciousness came first. As we see it, there has to be a material structure for the consciousness to occur within. If consciousness came first there would be no need for a material structure to inhabit, as it would remain an unattached free agent in universal construction. This is also in line with the Human/animal concept discussions and exchanges that we had within our group. If one can exist without a body and be a free universal agent of being, then there could be no animal or human presence---as without a body animal mentality is moot because how can domination of another take place if there's no body to work via. The essence of animalism "is" the domination of another and also contentions. What would be the sense of contention if there's no body. If we contend with each other there has to be a body to be effective. If consciousness is produced by and within the brain then the material had to be created first, as the brain itself is material. If- consciousness came first and produced the material then miracles are possible, or, it may be possible the other way around. Nope--- according to the way we see it the Big Bang causes the material to form, and then from that eventually there is "we". If consciousness came first it seems unprovable.

Then there's the question of-- would there be only one conscious being or many at the creation of the universe. If the consciousness came first, would it be they were looking for a means to kick the crap out of each other. This doesn't make sense because the animal entity would have to exist in order to have the incentive/will to kick the crap out of someone. What this verifies is--the entities mentioned in the article aren't in knowledge of the human and animal concepts, which we see as the actual source of the problems we have in the world. But-there can't be a human side without an animal side to ones existence . So then, do both sides create the universe/material. The two are contradictory so they couldn't together create anything if consciousness existed first.  I would say---we've got it right---mostly anyways.

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Thread Atheist vs Theist post 48 BeyondSaving.

Old Seer wrote:

   Being that I'm causing to many threads to be hijacked I find it necessary to establish my own thread. I don't like the idea because in my world we don't engage much in self importance, a little but not much. And this seems to be getting into that area and I'm not comfortable with it.

   Another is- where do I start. so after a bit of deliberation it occurred to me, why not start it where we (our group) started in 1985, and that was with biblical creation.

 To us, as we learned over time, creation is not a material undertaking but rather spiritual. In 1985 we had no idea where this would lead. Personally I/we wasn't out to accomplish anything. It was a simple question given to a group of guys that were into various fields of life's work in which they made their monies for living as we all do, or at least in our case, did.  Having met one of them by a chance meeting as he passed through town we got into a conversation of various interest as people normally do. He informed me of his club/group and among then was a Physicist which peaked my interest as I am also a Physicist, at least to some degree (old school). At that time I was an Atheist considering JC to be a street magician making a living.

 I gave this "Smurf" several questions for The Physics Smurf (he referred to the group as a Smurfdom). The question was --creation doesn't match the laws of physics, things are out of order. And in giving my understanding of what it might be I gave a short list of my suspicions. The main suspicion was that it might be something spiritual because the bible mentions spirituals all over the place, and had no idea what it was all about.

 A few week later as he passed through town again he dropped of a packet at the place we met, a local eatery. I was informed they were going to take on an analysis of creation and that it was something they hadn't seen before, and the Physicist confirmed that it wasn't physics feasible---he sent it to the Psycho Smurfs, That's when it really took off in directions no one suspected.

 They determined it was something mental, and for whatever reason and how they saw it, it was a state of mind. Now here's the deal----IF, we are correct, this understanding of creation totally negates Christianity as is understood by the world. It literally destroys what is understood as Christianity. Because everything in the book is based and constructed and referred to from creation being the focal point. An Apostle refers to- those invisible things of creation which can be clearly seen, meaning- they recognize creation as a spiritual undertaking and that makes it a horse of a different color. As everything else in the book Christianity hinges on Creation, and Christianity is about spiritual things not material things. Then- there is no such thing as Christianity as an operating religion anywhere on planet earth.

Any questions are welcome. 

 

We are very well acquainted with the Easter Island scenarios etc.

Ok here's what we have. a particular Geneticist fellow (Source-PBS Documentary) went around the world taking DNA samples and shows quite well that all originated from a African Bushman tribe. (trying to stay simpleish), and we agree with that unless other evidence shows otherwise. The group of migrants that settled in the region of the Tigress and Euphrates  rivers are the ones that became Adam. Theirs nothing unique about these people and they are as anyone else on the planet at that time.

 This particular troop sits down and figures themselves out. That is what biblical creation is about-- they become enlightened of their personal mental makeup. This may have been done by others on the planet but we find no evidence of that. Their understanding is forwarded to following generations of their troop. That eventually ends up as Genesis of the book. When this came about is unknown as the time used by them is also unknown. a year to them may have been a different span of time. Each summer and winter could be 2 years of their time---but that can't be seen. It could have been several thousand years as we use time. Now--- the evidence is for that is---how long would it take for those African Bushmen to evolve into what the Hebrews are today. As one can see the physical appearance has changed considerable since their migration.

 What makes Adam-- As we (our group) can comprehend that could span quite a few 1000 years. So it seems it can't be determined how long a time things took place. There's no way to know at what particular time they came to understand their persons (be aware of thenselves). This attempt or accomplishment is the beginning of psychiatry-( as we see it) or the study of the mind/person. But, because they understand themselves does not necessarily make them good guys. There did develop some very evil characters---and in their world evil is understood as "harm", and among their determinations is where the term "good and evil" enters the picture. Evil is harm and good is ----just good, in some cases "helpful". Adam (Adamites)is a natural personage, and isn't civilized and a free entity on the land. There was no civilization at that time that we know of (however there could have been in other places). the Adamites nare free to gbe whatever they want or care to be. Within their knowledge there is the understood concept of Human and or animal. That can be deduced from their story of creation. IE--the creeping thing which is the same as "catlike" predator. This evidence shows this understandind did exist within there society. In their world there is no such as right or/wrong, which creates the problem at the time of Noah. They have a world reasoned from good and evil-not right and wrong. They are natural as a dog is natural and has no mental concept-right and wrong.
A dog is merely trained according to our application of right and wrong. In nature it is not wrong to be destructive--it simply may have it's consequences, and it's not wrong to be a dog, and it's not wrong for certain Adamites to be as dogs either---right. From this then we can understand our problems. The thing about this is---it's someone's history, and from that we can reason the consequences on accounts of how we think---or what state of mind is destructive. There's is no record in the world that we know of that goes back that far.

  So-what good is this to us? The Hebrew history shows clearly the consequences and results of what happens when people become animalistic, as in the first place is is they that have the keys to this phenomenon. And what happens when a society rejects it,s elder knowledge. This is why the flood of Noah,s time came about. We went over this on another thread. OK so what?. THEN along comes Nimrod founding civilization by deception. And instead of being natural people the people are then re-created the way Nimrod want them to be. It is Nimrod then that creates right and wrong for the purposes of controlling the people. But---there's no way this idea will allow peace of mind or make peace with others or solve any human animal problem. They're stuck--they can't agree with each onther on anything and take off in all directions--and having the lost the way back create civilizations in other places because mant want to do what Nimrod did---and none of it has ever worked anywhere, even today.

 Here's the key--- As it has been said, as Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the people. Hunter is the same as predator(creeping thing). In this case the people are saying --they've become as Nimrod, and it's controlled animalism that has value in society, not the human. Here's the thing---if you're going to have a civilization you have to be as the ones that run it--they won't allow you to be anything other. You're stuck, and social problems cannot be solved because it is they that create society is their image and likeness and that is-----animal entity. That is why you are forced to school to learn to be a predator. All that can happen is any try to fix it will only make it worse, because in order to fix it more animal needs to be applies until all goes berzerko, and this is why your rights are being taken away ---but also for other reasons. The State is loosing control of it's own inventions. What this is-is a Lion society that cannot solve it's problems any more then a Lion pride can. This books show clearly what's wrong here on planet earth.

What's the solution---Along come some dude with the name of JC. HE says'---listen up floks if you're going to keep this deal going you're going to kill each other off and before the State looses control of you and allows the top predator class to rip you off and rob you of all the goodies ---I got ancient relatives who understand this deal. My buddies call me Adam the 2nd, but I'm not eggzactly like Adam the first. You've got to get back to being natural people and put this animal deal away or you're gonners. My ancestors knew about all this stuff so I'm not kidding around. If you want to keep following apelike knuckle draggers then you can kiss your own asses goodbye. I'd sure like to see you all stay around --but hey--it's up to you.

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers


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harleysportster wrote:Old

harleysportster wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

  another vacation from retirement. Got some traveling to do. Lotsa miles to put on.

Nothing like the freedom of the open road. At least, from a two-wheel perspective on a bike. Pure Zen. If such a thing as Zen actually existed.

You MUST have read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance".  What did you think of it? 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Not even close . . .

 Not even close . . .

Old Seer wrote:

Any questions are welcome. 

 

Old Seer wrote:

Ok here's what we have. a particular Geneticist fellow (Source-PBS Documentary) went around the world taking DNA samples and shows quite well that all originated from a African Bushman tribe. (trying to stay simpleish), and we agree with that unless other evidence shows otherwise. The group of migrants that settled in the region of the Tigress and Euphrates  rivers are the ones that became Adam. Theirs nothing unique about these people and they are as anyone else on the planet at that time.

 This particular troop sits down and figures themselves out. That is what biblical creation is about-- they become enlightened of their personal mental makeup. This may have been done by others on the planet but we find no evidence of that. Their understanding is forwarded to following generations of their troop. That eventually ends up as Genesis of the book. When this came about is unknown as the time used by them is also unknown. a year to them may have been a different span of time. Each summer and winter could be 2 years of their time---but that can't be seen. It could have been several thousand years as we use time. Now--- the evidence is for that is---how long would it take for those African Bushmen to evolve into what the Hebrews are today. As one can see the physical appearance has changed considerable since their migration.

 What makes Adam-- As we (our group) can comprehend that could span quite a few 1000 years. So it seems it can't be determined how long a time things took place. There's no way to know at what particular time they came to understand their persons (be aware of thenselves). This attempt or accomplishment is the beginning of psychiatry-( as we see it) or the study of the mind/person. THEN along comes Nimrod founding civilization by deception. And instead of being natural people the people are then re-created the way Nimrod want them to be. It is Nimrod then that creates right and wrong for the purposes of controlling the people. But---there's no way this idea will allow peace of mind or make peace with others or solve any human animal problem. They're stuck--they can't agree with each onther on anything and take off in all directions--and having the lost the way back create civilizations in other places because mant want to do what Nimrod did---and none of it has ever worked anywhere, even today.

 Here's the key--- As it has been said, as Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the people. Hunter is the same as predator(creeping thing). In this case the people are saying --they've become as Nimrod, and it's controlled animalism that has value in society, not the human. Here's the thing---if you're going to have a civilization you have to be as the ones that run it--they won't allow you to be anything other. You're stuck, and social problems cannot be solved because it is they that create society is their image and likeness and that is-----animal entity. That is why you are forced to school to learn to be a predator. All that can happen is any try to fix it will only make it worse, because in order to fix it more animal needs to be applies until all goes berzerko, and this is why your rights are being taken away ---but also for other reasons. The State is loosing control of it's own inventions. What this is-is a Lion society that cannot solve it's problems any more then a Lion pride can. This books show clearly what's wrong here on planet earth.

What's the solution---Along come some dude with the name of JC. HE says'---listen up floks if you're going to keep this deal going you're going to kill each other off and before the State looses control of you and allows the top predator class to rip you off and rob you of all the goodies ---I got ancient relatives who understand this deal. My buddies call me Adam the 2nd, but I'm not eggzactly like Adam the first. You've got to get back to being natural people and put this animal deal away or you're gonners. My ancestors knew about all this stuff so I'm not kidding around. If you want to keep following apelike knuckle draggers then you can kiss your own asses goodbye. I'd sure like to see you all stay around --but hey--it's up to you.

 


  I appreciate your dilemma, I often have problems with writing when I find myself in a particular mode in composing. I often am unable to edit while I am composing is an example 0f being 'stuck' in a mode (in writing). I feel for you. And Yes I can see. Please know, Human evolutionary theory and human immigration are not the basic questions you are going to receive. You omit information people want to know in favor certain information, by which time you are continually skipping over information the board really would like to know about. I imagine you are in a particular mode when writing  which hasnt allowed you to answer some key points. If you are having trouble identifying some key points are, obviously, a template or guide provides service in this task before you. IMO, Adamites and human immigration wouldnt hit the top twenty list, that the board requires from you and your group. The only way is to adopt another writing style, while clarifying some things, if you ever hope to get past this. In so doing, you'll be able to shorten these posts, when questioned by others, K ? I am not trying to sound like a jerk but suggest you think about everything you are omitting while restating roughly three things over and over. It wont do. Remember the post I copied from you. If you are lost move what I copied, I mean cut-and-pasted to this area and begin-to clarify that. Where you said you didn't know what they wanted. That IS on the top ten list of everyone's mind,  (judging by the few comments I have read). If you are lost it is a place to start.

 

 

 www.rationalresponders.com/forum/32691 Nu# 48 Posted on Aug 23rd of this year -- Nu# 48


Atheistextremist
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Hated it

Ktulu wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

  another vacation from retirement. Got some traveling to do. Lotsa miles to put on.

Nothing like the freedom of the open road. At least, from a two-wheel perspective on a bike. Pure Zen. If such a thing as Zen actually existed.

You MUST have read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance".  What did you think of it? 

 

Maybe hate is the wrong word.

I thought it over simplified people into 2 types when anyone silly enough to get on a motorcycle is going to have some technical idea as well as balls enough to risk their life for the feeling of flying. Of course, while most bike people can do some technical things modern bikes increasingly and deliberately disconnect the rider from maintenance for reasons of recurring revenue. BMW is a case in point. You'd need to be Edward Scissorhands to change the oil. Unless Persig suggests we all ride Royal Enfield Bullets so old and decrepit safety is seriously in question. 

In truth the book should have been Zen and the Art of Bicycle Maintenance. The real ZenBus would have wooshed along on Surly trucksters creating no racket and no pollution, while sidestepping the consumer economy and the philosophical denigration of being mystified by the intense complexities of the internal combustion engine. If the bicycle broke, which being a Surly it would not, they could have bent it back into shape in the fork of some convenient roadside tree. 

I'm not sure if I missed the point or was simply bored shitless every time Phaedrus hove into view, agonising over the subjectively inconsequential so tortuously it made Bernard Christian's tutorials seem to flow like On The Road.

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:Ktulu

Atheistextremist wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

  another vacation from retirement. Got some traveling to do. Lotsa miles to put on.

Nothing like the freedom of the open road. At least, from a two-wheel perspective on a bike. Pure Zen. If such a thing as Zen actually existed.

You MUST have read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance".  What did you think of it? 

 

Maybe hate is the wrong word.

I thought it over simplified people into 2 types when anyone silly enough to get on a motorcycle is going to have some technical idea as well as balls enough to risk their life for the feeling of flying. Of course, while most bike people can do some technical things modern bikes increasingly and deliberately disconnect the rider from maintenance for reasons of recurring revenue. BMW is a case in point. You'd need to be Edward Scissorhands to change the oil. Unless Persig suggests we all ride Royal Enfield Bullets so old and decrepit safety is seriously in question. 

In truth the book should have been Zen and the Art of Bicycle Maintenance. The real ZenBus would have wooshed along on Surly trucksters creating no racket and no pollution, while sidestepping the consumer economy and the philosophical denigration of being mystified by the intense complexities of the internal combustion engine. If the bicycle broke, which being a Surly it would not, they could have bent it back into shape in the fork of some convenient roadside tree. 

I'm not sure if I missed the point or was simply bored shitless every time Phaedrus hove into view, agonising over the subjectively inconsequential so tortuously it made Bernard Christian's tutorials seem to flow like On The Road.

I think what did it for me was two things, firstly at 16, I didn't speak English properly so it seemed more "cryptic" the first time I read it.  I had that fascination of "ambiguity" that comes from the false assumption that "ambiguity" = "profound" that I haven't figured out yet.  Secondly, I was struck by the obsession with "quality", it reflected some of my earlier obsessions with similar concepts.  

Even though, years later I know better, I can't help but have a soft spot for this book.  It triggers the kind of nostalgia that you normally get from your childhood dreams of mysticism and profoundness.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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For OPI haven't the time,

For OP

I haven't the time, nor interest to research through thousands of lines of cryptic "Smurf" episodes that are your posts.  But as a side note, as a child, I had a naive personal theory that every time someone acted in self interest they were giving into their instincts, or you could say animal side.  Contrary to what I think you are trying to say, it's hard for me to be sure because you never have summed it up, I have always found civilization and society to be the culmination of overcoming the "animal side.  In other words, the more you overcome your instincts, the more social you become.  It would seem that society is really the main drive towards our humanity.  If we remove that forced incentive, we become more animal like.  

I would again, respectfully ask you to ask you to sum up what you are trying to say.  You should be able to sum up your main argument in five sentences or less.  For example:  Christianity is the belief that Jesus was the son of God.  He died for our sins and was crucified.  The only way to get into Heaven is through Jesus Christ. Now you go...

What are you trying to say, you believe that ....  Please enlighten us in 5 sentences or less, you can elaborate on it later.

 

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ok, I don't undersatnd

danatemporary wrote:

 Not even close . . .

Old Seer wrote:

Any questions are welcome. 

 

Old Seer wrote:

Ok here's what we have. a particular Geneticist fellow (Source-PBS Documentary) went around the world taking DNA samples and shows quite well that all originated from a African Bushman tribe. (trying to stay simpleish), and we agree with that unless other evidence shows otherwise. The group of migrants that settled in the region of the Tigress and Euphrates  rivers are the ones that became Adam. Theirs nothing unique about these people and they are as anyone else on the planet at that time.

 This particular troop sits down and figures themselves out. That is what biblical creation is about-- they become enlightened of their personal mental makeup. This may have been done by others on the planet but we find no evidence of that. Their understanding is forwarded to following generations of their troop. That eventually ends up as Genesis of the book. When this came about is unknown as the time used by them is also unknown. a year to them may have been a different span of time. Each summer and winter could be 2 years of their time---but that can't be seen. It could have been several thousand years as we use time. Now--- the evidence is for that is---how long would it take for those African Bushmen to evolve into what the Hebrews are today. As one can see the physical appearance has changed considerable since their migration.

 What makes Adam-- As we (our group) can comprehend that could span quite a few 1000 years. So it seems it can't be determined how long a time things took place. There's no way to know at what particular time they came to understand their persons (be aware of thenselves). This attempt or accomplishment is the beginning of psychiatry-( as we see it) or the study of the mind/person. THEN along comes Nimrod founding civilization by deception. And instead of being natural people the people are then re-created the way Nimrod want them to be. It is Nimrod then that creates right and wrong for the purposes of controlling the people. But---there's no way this idea will allow peace of mind or make peace with others or solve any human animal problem. They're stuck--they can't agree with each onther on anything and take off in all directions--and having the lost the way back create civilizations in other places because mant want to do what Nimrod did---and none of it has ever worked anywhere, even today.

 Here's the key--- As it has been said, as Nimrod, a mighty hunter before the people. Hunter is the same as predator(creeping thing). In this case the people are saying --they've become as Nimrod, and it's controlled animalism that has value in society, not the human. Here's the thing---if you're going to have a civilization you have to be as the ones that run it--they won't allow you to be anything other. You're stuck, and social problems cannot be solved because it is they that create society is their image and likeness and that is-----animal entity. That is why you are forced to school to learn to be a predator. All that can happen is any try to fix it will only make it worse, because in order to fix it more animal needs to be applies until all goes berzerko, and this is why your rights are being taken away ---but also for other reasons. The State is loosing control of it's own inventions. What this is-is a Lion society that cannot solve it's problems any more then a Lion pride can. This books show clearly what's wrong here on planet earth.

What's the solution---Along come some dude with the name of JC. HE says'---listen up floks if you're going to keep this deal going you're going to kill each other off and before the State looses control of you and allows the top predator class to rip you off and rob you of all the goodies ---I got ancient relatives who understand this deal. My buddies call me Adam the 2nd, but I'm not eggzactly like Adam the first. You've got to get back to being natural people and put this animal deal away or you're gonners. My ancestors knew about all this stuff so I'm not kidding around. If you want to keep following apelike knuckle draggers then you can kiss your own asses goodbye. I'd sure like to see you all stay around --but hey--it's up to you.

 


  I appreciate your dilemma, I often have problems with writing when I find myself in a particular mode in composing. I often am unable to edit while I am composing is an example 0f being 'stuck' in a mode (in writing). I feel for you. And Yes I can see. Please know, Human evolutionary theory and human immigration are not the basic questions you are going to receive. You omit information people want to know in favor certain information, by which time you are continually skipping over information the board really would like to know about. I imagine you are in a particular mode when writing  which hasnt allowed you to answer some key points. If you are having trouble identifying some key points are, obviously, a template or guide provides service in this task before you. IMO, Adamites and human immigration wouldnt hit the top twenty list, that the board requires from you and your group. The only way is to adopt another writing style, while clarifying some things, if you ever hope to get past this. In so doing, you'll be able to shorten these posts, when questioned by others, K ? I am not trying to sound like a jerk but suggest you think about everything you are omitting while restating roughly three things over and over. It wont do. Remember the post I copied from you. If you are lost move what I copied, I mean cut-and-pasted to this area and begin-to clarify that. Where you said you didn't know what they wanted. That IS on the top ten list of everyone's mind,  (judging by the few comments I have read). If you are lost it is a place to start.

 

 

 www.rationalresponders.com/forum/32691 Nu# 48 Posted on Aug 23rd of this year -- Nu# 48

what the problem is. This stuff is so simple to us I cannot understand why there's any trouble in understanding it. I think because it is new and coming from a source Atheists don't approve of--namely the bible. My oldest daughter and son of 40 and their friends have no trouble with it. And my son has an extremely high IQ, and if there's anything wrong with this he would say so, he could actually be a Smurf.   There's no fooling him. At Quartzsite last April in a meeting with Psycho Smurf #3 (he wanted to meet me) he pointed out none of you would probably get it or even care. Apparently the thinking encountered here is to directional and fixed. He suggested at that time I move on as they didn't see anymore purpose for being here. The best thing is leave it in the oven and let it bake. The so called Christians have just as hard a time with it as those here. It was pointed out that no one here has any trouble understanding if a post is normally understood , but take one step in a biblical direction and there's no understanding. He had a label for it but what it amounts to is the same as religions have created for their followers. It pertains to a mental block phenomenon that happens when people get into a mental fix that they can't get out of. The analysis is---20% of you here are well meaning--but it's the remaining 80% that are a real problem. With us it's not a win or loose situation--but as sending a letter and once delivered it's in the hands of the receiver. Actually I enjoyed being here. We may simply carry on from the Noah syndrome---just secure our families and not worry about it.  That's what we Smurfs originally had in mind anyway. If you're going to eventually destroy yourselfs then that's the way it will be. All we can say is---we told you--because we had to, so we would be exempt from judgement of doing nothing when we knew. so--we tried and we're happy with that.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers


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You dont understand . . .

Old Seer wrote:
I dont understand what the problem is. This stuff is so simple to us I cannot understand why there's any trouble in understanding it

  To you

 


 ProzacDeathWish Recently wrote :

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

 I'm forwarding an interpretation of the Bible.

 

 

   In an ever so cryptic way.

 

 

Old Seer wrote:
Why is it my fault if someone can't analyze simple statements.

 

  Typically speaking, if you can't understand my meaning, is it your fault or mine ?  Understand ?

 

Old Seer wrote:
What's the problem.

 

   Evasiveness, lack of clarity ?

 Irrespective of what consensus  Alpha Smurf and  Bible Smurf have reached, a fair amount of trial & error went into this. As you admitted on the 23rd you didnt know what they wanted, tells me to suggest this once more. Please, I am asking please do what I asked, or not.

> To Re-State move this (Num. 48 from Aug 23) to this area  of the Forum,  in Yellow : If problems finding the link then look it up from your history::

www1.rationalresponders.com/forum/32691 Nu# 48 Posted on Aug 23rd of this year -- Nu# 48

 


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Text is in Yellow .. ..

  Old Seer Shared ..

Old Seer wrote:
.. The only intelligent God would be us. .. There must be a brain first for a person to form within. Once the person is formed then Poooof- there's God. To begin with this particular person need not be very intelligent or originally have any intelligence at all.  We think intelligence forms long after the brain is formed and the brain is the means to allow intelligence to develop. This is a speculation of course, but seems a logical process. But- we don't see intelligence as a human thing, it merely is a means to understand what a human thing is. [Smurfdom] We say intelligence is a neutral that can be used to figure out something/anything.

 But there again, what we referring to is God as "us". But, Gad can also be construed to mean the forces that create regardless of what or means or process may be. but in this case God can be understood to be the natural forces that create material. But the description is moot because it is of no human value because we cannot use such a description of God because it is fixed and cannot be changed.. We can't change material (except by miracle if that's possible) but we can change ourselves/mentality.

God is the creator of being. Ok what this means is there is/was some means that a being/person was created in the brain. What that process or or ability is can be construed as God the creator.  But to us that power or process is unknown. Maybe we are merely a product of the brain and it's the functions of the brain itself that creates or allows one to exist. "person" could be a natural outcome of the brain.. We are created in both the animal and the human, but it is the Christian/Adamite God/way that creates the human. What that means is that Christianity/Adam is the one side of ones creation that human is attributed to. The other side is what is referred to as Satan or animal. But there is a slight difference between Satan and a Lion. A Lion is natural and cannot control if it be a Lion or not. Satan is a liar that says "I'm Human" when not (wolf in sheep's clothing), --a purposeful deception which takes one to be intelligent to understand to be a purposeful deceiver

..The Christian God/Way then is then Creator of "human" being. I need to add human here because JC represents the one side (singular) of one's/everyone's being. Everyone has it.

 

 ~ Dana

 

 


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Old Seer wrote: All we can

Old Seer wrote:

 

 All we can say is---we told you--because we had to, so we would be exempt from judgement of doing nothing when we knew. so--we tried and we're happy with that.

                      

 

 So sharing your muddled message with us was really about saving your own ass ?   As long as you're "exempt from judgement"  the final results don't even matter and you're "happy with that" ?

                                     .....whose the real animal here ?

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." Rudyard Kipling


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Atheistextremist wrote:Ktulu

Atheistextremist wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

You MUST have read "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance".  What did you think of it? 

 

Maybe hate is the wrong word.

I thought it over simplified people into 2 types when anyone silly enough to get on a motorcycle is going to have some technical idea as well as balls enough to risk their life for the feeling of flying. Of course, while most bike people can do some technical things modern bikes increasingly and deliberately disconnect the rider from maintenance for reasons of recurring revenue. BMW is a case in point. You'd need to be Edward Scissorhands to change the oil. Unless Persig suggests we all ride Royal Enfield Bullets so old and decrepit safety is seriously in question. 

In truth the book should have been Zen and the Art of Bicycle Maintenance. The real ZenBus would have wooshed along on Surly trucksters creating no racket and no pollution, while sidestepping the consumer economy and the philosophical denigration of being mystified by the intense complexities of the internal combustion engine. If the bicycle broke, which being a Surly it would not, they could have bent it back into shape in the fork of some convenient roadside tree. 

I'm not sure if I missed the point or was simply bored shitless every time Phaedrus hove into view, agonising over the subjectively inconsequential so tortuously it made Bernard Christian's tutorials seem to flow like On The Road.

 

Revealing my ignorance here, but I have actually never read the book.

Some bikers that I know said it was a bit entertaining, others said they found it tedious.

I have put it on my reading list several times, but for some reason I have never gotten around to it.

I actually used the word zen, from something I read several years ago about totally being in the moment.

When I get too stressed out or upset, or when life really seems to be closing in, jumping on the bike and going for a ride clears my head out and makes me sane again. All of my worries just fall away and reality subsides for a little while.

Oddly enough, after a good ride, I feel clearheaded and my problems become small problems that I can fix.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Back for a bit.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

 

 All we can say is---we told you--because we had to, so we would be exempt from judgement of doing nothing when we knew. so--we tried and we're happy with that.

                      

 

 So sharing your muddled message with us was really about saving your own ass ?   As long as you're "exempt from judgement"  the final results don't even matter and you're "happy with that" ?

                                     .....whose the real animal here ?

OK You don't understand. When one knows important things one becomes obligated to inform others---it's how humanity works---or is a result of one's humanity. This is not  a thing of chickening out or running away---It's apparent what we want to convey is not easily understood. I have been informed that the reason is----(no negative intended) you are all to superficial, and to heavily material swayed to grasp the understanding. But, that's common with this subject--as you all are used to the conventional form of Christianity. Those who claim to be Christian also have the same problems in this subject. We do not say anyone is stupid, there are merely 2 different worlds in play on this subject matter and to make the switch over or get the idea is very hard to do. It takes time for these types of things to be understood. Bear in mind---the Jews don't really understand their own book also, and they would have just as hard a time as any getting the understanding. Nechodamis the high priest had the same problem in JC's day.  Smiling What I meant by fulfilling our obligation we don't have to worry about being neglective in our duty.  But, that doesn't mean we're giving up as there may be others and other ways yet to find. The idea wasn't necessarily to create believers, but merely to extend the understandings to others, of which we are obligated to do. If believers were created-so be it---if not--so be it. We aren't high priests or preachers and have no interest in a following. In our world one is in charge of one's own self.

I'm here for now mainly to clarify (this has nothing to do with your post) a bit of info on PBS this week. I thought perhaps someone would have started a thread for comment but I couldn't find one. It's about JC having a wife---A professor at Harvard was given a copy of a fragment of an ancient document that eludes to JC having a wife. Well, that may just as well have been but when JC says wife he means "church, religion, belief, congregation etc---which technically would be the same as "Eve". Religion in the book is also referred to as Woman, city, daughters of Jerusalem. While Jerusalem is an actual city it also means "proper religion, and/or belief. Daughters, in this case means the individual groups or congregations in various places. Being there was no thread on this I thought I would post this tidbit.

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It is interesting

Old Seer wrote:

I'm here for now mainly to clarify (this has nothing to do with your post) a bit of info on PBS this week. I thought perhaps someone would have started a thread for comment but I couldn't find one. It's about JC having a wife---A professor at Harvard was given a copy of a fragment of an ancient document that eludes to JC having a wife. Well, that may just as well have been but when JC says wife he means "church, religion, belief, congregation etc---which technically would be the same as "Eve". Religion in the book is also referred to as Woman, city, daughters of Jerusalem. While Jerusalem is an actual city it also means "proper religion, and/or belief. Daughters, in this case means the individual groups or congregations in various places. Being there was no thread on this I thought I would post this tidbit.

I considered posting about that, but didn't have time to do any research.

My guess is that of the many gospels written by the various factions, it is not surprising that one was written that uses this device to justify marriage.

Can't comment on your interpretation without more investigation.

 

Here's a quick summary:

http://www.theage.com.au/world/ancient-clue-to-christs-marriage-20120919-266x8.html

The fragment belongs to an anonymous private collector. Nothing is known about the circumstances of its discovery. Professor King cautioned that the fragment should not be taken as proof that Jesus was actually married.

The text was probably written centuries after Jesus lived, and all other early, historically reliable Christian literature was silent on the question, she said.

But the discovery is exciting, Professor King said, as it was the first known statement from antiquity that referred to Jesus speaking of a wife. ''There was, we already know, a controversy in the 2nd century over whether Jesus was married, caught up with a debate about whether Christians should marry and have sex.''

 

 

 


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I also meant to

x wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

I'm here for now mainly to clarify (this has nothing to do with your post) a bit of info on PBS this week. I thought perhaps someone would have started a thread for comment but I couldn't find one. It's about JC having a wife---A professor at Harvard was given a copy of a fragment of an ancient document that eludes to JC having a wife. Well, that may just as well have been but when JC says wife he means "church, religion, belief, congregation etc---which technically would be the same as "Eve". Religion in the book is also referred to as Woman, city, daughters of Jerusalem. While Jerusalem is an actual city it also means "proper religion, and/or belief. Daughters, in this case means the individual groups or congregations in various places. Being there was no thread on this I thought I would post this tidbit.

I considered posting about that, but didn't have time to do any research.

My guess is that of the many gospels written by the various factions, it is not surprising that one was written that uses this device to justify marriage.

Can't comment on your interpretation without more investigation.

 

Here's a quick summary:

http://www.theage.com.au/world/ancient-clue-to-christs-marriage-20120919-266x8.html

The fragment belongs to an anonymous private collector. Nothing is known about the circumstances of its discovery. Professor King cautioned that the fragment should not be taken as proof that Jesus was actually married.

The text was probably written centuries after Jesus lived, and all other early, historically reliable Christian literature was silent on the question, she said.

But the discovery is exciting, Professor King said, as it was the first known statement from antiquity that referred to Jesus speaking of a wife. ''There was, we already know, a controversy in the 2nd century over whether Jesus was married, caught up with a debate about whether Christians should marry and have sex.''

include this---It's not likely JC was ever married because when one studies his sayings there is no marriage in Christianity. Marriage is derived from civilization where under it's premises people seek to control others for personal benefit. In proper Christianity superiority is given up. The original Adamites understood to profit from another,s labor to be immoral. Under the civil mind, control and possession of others is what existence is forwarded on. This is what makes proper Christianity so hard for many to understand. It is a different state of mind and understanding of life. What's happened is--- It is expected that JC has a solution to fixing civilization---but not so. It is meant to "replace" civilization with the ways of the Adamites. Civilization cannot be fixed-as it exists on the animal premise, The animal is the animal and cannot be changed. The only alternative is "Human", of which the present world,s societies do not depend on for existence.

 

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Just another forgery it seems

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery

A New Testament scholar claims to have found evidence suggesting that the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is a modern forgery.

Professor Francis Watson, of Durham University, says the papyrus fragment, which caused a worldwide sensation when it appeared earlier this week because it appeared to refer to Jesus's wife, is a patchwork of texts from the genuine Coptic-language Gospel of Thomas, which have been copied and reassembled out of order to make a suggestive new whole.

 


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I suspected as much

x wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery

A New Testament scholar claims to have found evidence suggesting that the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is a modern forgery.

Professor Francis Watson, of Durham University, says the papyrus fragment, which caused a worldwide sensation when it appeared earlier this week because it appeared to refer to Jesus's wife, is a patchwork of texts from the genuine Coptic-language Gospel of Thomas, which have been copied and reassembled out of order to make a suggestive new whole.

 

My post was to show the difference between how the world thinks compared to JC. Now all can see why I'm not being being understood. If you go to www.smithsonian.com you'll find where they have a program on Christianity pointing to a "deciphering" of Christianity etc. What programs as these imply is---JC is not understood. But that's what our team did----decipher the book.  A reference to this fact in the book is---"I will confound the wisdom of the wise and make fools out of the scholars". What that means---floks in high places will never figure it out. They expect JC (as per previous post) to fix the problem . What they don't understand is the very fabric that they use to try to understand is faulty, mainly---superiority and predatorism which is the problem. They keep trying to solve the problem with the problem---"themselves" and those like them. If they are trying to decipher Christianity then they don't know what it is. Hence--this is why Atheists have such a problem with Christianity. The Christianity in the world since about 100 to 150 Ad is gone, and also since---hasn't been Christianity.  The social structure of the world blinds one to what Christianity actually is. In proper Christianity the social structure is based on different values. Solutions to the worlds problems can't be found by the Power, Principality and Authority structure (PP&A) because the very structure is the problem. They are blind unto themselves.

Thanks for your responses   Smiling

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Even smurfs started small

Old Seer wrote:

x wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery

A New Testament scholar claims to have found evidence suggesting that the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is a modern forgery.

Professor Francis Watson, of Durham University, says the papyrus fragment, which caused a worldwide sensation when it appeared earlier this week because it appeared to refer to Jesus's wife, is a patchwork of texts from the genuine Coptic-language Gospel of Thomas, which have been copied and reassembled out of order to make a suggestive new whole.

My post was to show the difference between how the world thinks compared to JC. Now all can see why I'm not being being understood. If you go to www.smithsonian.com you'll find where they have a program on Christianity pointing to a "deciphering" of Christianity etc. What programs as these imply is---JC is not understood. But that's what our team did----decipher the book.  A reference to this fact in the book is---"I will confound the wisdom of the wise and make fools out of the scholars". What that means---floks in high places will never figure it out. They expect JC (as per previous post) to fix the problem . What they don't understand is the very fabric that they use to try to understand is faulty, mainly---superiority and predatorism which is the problem. They keep trying to solve the problem with the problem---"themselves" and those like them. If they are trying to decipher Christianity then they don't know what it is. Hence--this is why Atheists have such a problem with Christianity. The Christianity in the world since about 100 to 150 Ad is gone, and also since---hasn't been Christianity.  The social structure of the world blinds one to what Christianity actually is. In proper Christianity the social structure is based on different values. Solutions to the worlds problems can't be found by the Power, Principality and Authority structure (PP&A) because the very structure is the problem. They are blind unto themselves.

Thanks for your responses   Smiling

When I saw that the provenance of the fragment was murky, I was suspicious, but decided to post the article anyway.

I gather that King still believes it is authentic, but I imagine that we'll know for sure soon enough either way when it is further analysed.

To me it seems likely that there were other gospel stories from that era and one day some might be discovered.

 

I don't quite get your criticism of the scholars' methodology. Certainly those who base their analysis on unjustified assumptions about the validity of their religion can't be trusted, but a university seems the best place to study these things. There may be flaws in how it is handled, but peer review seems to be the best method we have. I just can't see how much progress can be made in any study without some formal organisation.

I'll agree with you that deciphering Christianity is a difficult job and that most people have a very limited understanding of it, but this is largely caused by the churches. Scholars who study religion tend to be believers, but this is slowly changing and most progress has come from the universities. There is only so much impact amateurs can have and I can't see that changing much. Still, Christianity started from not much and now look at it. Of course, it didn't have much clout until Constantine. So, if you do manage to establish your new/old version of Christianity, you smurfs will have to have to make a deal with a state power at some point in order to be successful. I can't think of any powerful religions that haven't.


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It isn't my critisim particularly

x wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

x wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery

A New Testament scholar claims to have found evidence suggesting that the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is a modern forgery.

Professor Francis Watson, of Durham University, says the papyrus fragment, which caused a worldwide sensation when it appeared earlier this week because it appeared to refer to Jesus's wife, is a patchwork of texts from the genuine Coptic-language Gospel of Thomas, which have been copied and reassembled out of order to make a suggestive new whole.

My post was to show the difference between how the world thinks compared to JC. Now all can see why I'm not being being understood. If you go to www.smithsonian.com you'll find where they have a program on Christianity pointing to a "deciphering" of Christianity etc. What programs as these imply is---JC is not understood. But that's what our team did----decipher the book.  A reference to this fact in the book is---"I will confound the wisdom of the wise and make fools out of the scholars". What that means---floks in high places will never figure it out. They expect JC (as per previous post) to fix the problem . What they don't understand is the very fabric that they use to try to understand is faulty, mainly---superiority and predatorism which is the problem. They keep trying to solve the problem with the problem---"themselves" and those like them. If they are trying to decipher Christianity then they don't know what it is. Hence--this is why Atheists have such a problem with Christianity. The Christianity in the world since about 100 to 150 Ad is gone, and also since---hasn't been Christianity.  The social structure of the world blinds one to what Christianity actually is. In proper Christianity the social structure is based on different values. Solutions to the worlds problems can't be found by the Power, Principality and Authority structure (PP&A) because the very structure is the problem. They are blind unto themselves.

Thanks for your responses   Smiling

When I saw that the provenance of the fragment was murky, I was suspicious, but decided to post the article anyway.

I gather that King still believes it is authentic, but I imagine that we'll know for sure soon enough either way when it is further analyzed.

To me it seems likely that there were other gospel stories from that era and one day some might be discovered.

 

I don't quite get your criticism of the scholars' methodology. Certainly those who base their analysis on unjustified assumptions about the validity of their religion can't be trusted, but a university seems the best place to study these things. There may be flaws in how it is handled, but peer review seems to be the best method we have. I just can't see how much progress can be made in any study without some formal organization.

I'll agree with you that deciphering Christianity is a difficult job and that most people have a very limited understanding of it, but this is largely caused by the churches. Scholars who study religion tend to be believers, but this is slowly changing and most progress has come from the universities. There is only so much impact amateurs can have and I can't see that changing much. Still, Christianity started from not much and now look at it. Of course, it didn't have much clout until Constantine. So, if you do manage to establish your new/old version of Christianity, you smurfs will have to have to make a deal with a state power at some point in order to be successful. I can't think of any powerful religions that haven't.

that's a quote from the Old testament. There is a passage also in Genesis--- He will crush your head and you will bruise his heel. This has to do with the coming of the Messiah causing the end times. The serpent is civilization --as all through the book civilization is symbolized by the serpent, and sometimes "dragon". Crushing of the head means the removal of those that lead---government and religious leaders Heads of authority). The bruising of the heel of the Messiah means what the Smurfs are experiencing in this endeavor on this site---meaning---if the heel is bruised one finds it hard to walk---in this case, hard to progress. What happened here is precisely that---our heel has been bruised, we don't know where to go from here. Alpha Smurf is looking for ways to "progress" with no way seen. That is because JC is of a different way of thinking and life which is hard for those outside the knowledge to understand. It takes a while for one to comprehend, but one or two small things start it off for the person. Authorities over the masses create and maintain a unidirectional mentality that keeps the followers within a certain range of reasoning. Today they do this more by mental inheritance then purposeful intent.

  We can't give this to government, they wouldn't do anything but hide it---and in time they'll be looking for all us Smurfs. They're not going to go along with what will be their demise of PP&A. Christianity does not fix the world--the world cannot be fixed, it's an impossibility. the animal is the animal and cannot be something else. Christianity destroys the man made world and replaces it with the Ada mite way of life--which KC is example of. At this time the scholars are to late, as we have already deciphered the book, and we didn't decipher it from any stance of academic authority, which proves their inability to solve the worlds problems. Scholars didn't find it because it doesn't conform to a power structure of which they belong and are themselves.

  What JC is about cannot be found in a civilized mind as they are two different world. Civilization gets itself tangled in the problems it creates and to unentangle it is a constant hindrance to think anything outside the entanglement. The people in the PP&A are very quick to spot an enemy. We say they would have less a problem with understanding then the general public. It wouldn't take them long, they are the big loosers in the deal. Politics is a profession of deception and enmity, It doesn't take them long to see an enemy---it's what they're best at.

   What we know must go directly to the people as it is they who will be the final authority on the planet. not all the Nimrods.

Christianity is nothing more then putting away animal values in everyday life and replacing with Human values. It's very simple. If/ that's done it ruins the world, but the people have to do it.    Smiling

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What is Christianity??

Christianity is the same as what the Adamites found to be true after contemplating life and themselves. What makes it Chritianity is it reurns one to the original understandings of the Adamites. The term "Christ" is the same meaning as " Saviour". One who takes on the primary knowledge and lives according to it becomes as the Adamites. The Adamites (as best we can make out according to the latest Information we have) migrated out of Africa along with many others that settled the world (basically) were the ones that settled in the Tigress and Euphrates rivers  region (a region of clay).

   The reason a "Saviour" is needed is to return them to their original beliefs that they fell away from. To fall away from those beliefs negates being Adam. The Adamites span a period from Creation to the founding of civilization by Nimrod. While there were civilizations (Egypt) existing in other places at the time of Nimrod it wasn't supposed to be an institution for the Adamites. Civilization depends upon a different belief then Adam and removes and replaces the original beliefs. In this case the "Fall" is the process of becoming "civilized". Under civilization one is made by the State, where-as Adam is a free entity that follows the finding and determinations of the result of understanding one's personal makeup and self. The re3ligion of the Adamites was the belief in the self that all are the spiritually the same and abide in that sameness. That puts one in a self determination mode of life which is understood bay all in that belief. Civilization creates one to act or exist "enmass" with others under which life becomes determinded by those leading for a particular goal of social endeavor. Instead of remaining naturally created one become recreated for the purposed intent of society determined by those that are at the head of society. What makes Adam is the finding and understanding of the "naturalness of one's self. Civilization confiscates the person at early childhood and creates the person for civil purposes. 

   This then negates Adam, as Adam isn't created for any purpose and just "is". Civil governing retards free-thought and makes "strange" any deviations from the will of the few that rule.   Adam is a free entity and determiner of "the self" by things understood that are--- (biblical creation) the self. Under civilization powers of authority determine the course of society, while Adam recognizes no authority over one another .  No one on the planet is made any different, it merely that the Adamites discovered the makings---all are the same. But-if one wants to rise above the others (mostly by deception) they must lie to do so, and cause the others to believe that the power seeker has some special quality that the others don't have.

 Christianity then-is a return to being an Adamite---or becoming one. It is a religion of the "humane" rather then the humane/inhumane processes of civil governments that decide what's right and wrong-good or evil for the masses. Adam is one that understands these natural concepts without civil authority at the head of society.

   The end times (end of civilization) comes about when the masses understand the concepts and realize that the worlds problems are propagated by the very systems and people that cause the problems. Civilization is a concept that cannot be solved-it can only exist for it's own ends and be successful in those ends but can never produce peace or peace of mind that people always strive for. As Nimrod was an interference for the people of his time civil government is a continuous  interference for peace of mind of the populace for today. 

  The only way possible to be at peace is for one to do for one's self. When one understands the forces of good and evil they become able to decide for themselves what course to take of one's life, rather then life being dictated by a few, who control by creating thinking in line with their mandates and trained to think in directions for the processes of the State.

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cj wrote:Old Seer wrote:It

cj wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

It will take you a while to understand. Hang in there.    Smiling

 

I have never been fond of playing with my toes in a corner.  You will have to find someone else to play with.

 

 

I miss cj.


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This is not a reply to the mouse's post.

I don't know how to add a post for additional comment use only. I almost posted this in reply to one of Aussies posts and realized he may take it as directed toward him. And being that his thread has already been Highjacked I went to my own.  So if anyone wants to highjack this thread please do---I can go in any direction because I think freely and am flexible. I will only (on this thread) response to "rational" postings and make none to any disrespectful attempts to kick someone's guts out.  I'm not sure if I'm allowed to even highjack my own thread. And being this is a dead thread it shouldn't  make any difference anyway.

 Every morning I go online to check the weather for the area here. Along with the weather they post a bit of news. One article this morning was  Sandy's Wrath. Sandy is the hurricane presently (10/30/2012) along the eastern coast of the US.

  Ok. what does a Smurf see. and from our insights to life we see this everywhere, and now-so will you.  What we have there is an application of a mental state to describe  a physical/material Planetary phenomenon. A hurricane cannot have "wrath", as anger is a mental condition, and a mental condition requires a brain of which a hurricane has neither.

  Now turn that around: IE---"the guy's mind is like a constant hurricane". In this case we have a material/physical description of  a mental condition. What you see here is proof from your own use of language how we interpret the book. OK--as long as this particular method of application is used it can also be used to interpret the book. Now---if any do not want to then it must concluded that you insist on being deliberately opposite. And- if any won't do that, any argument against the book is moot until you do. If none here won't do so--and the Pope wouldn't do so---you're with the Pope---you think the same.

 Now--use this interpretive method to understand the time of Noah, and then you'll know why I've been sent here. If the world remains thinking as it does you will destroy social bonds, enter a time of extreme evil, and hatred---and kill each other off.  It's not about H2-o

 Don't blame the other guy, it's everyone's problem.   Smiling

 

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Old Seer wrote: We find

Old Seer wrote:
 We find that the tower of Babylon was never built, it is symbolic of man contrived government where a few tower above the many.Engineer Smurf say's building such a tower was impossible---above the heights of the heavens?????? no way to even get it above Mt Everest. archeologists have never found that tower or any evidence that it ever existed, because it never did in material form. It symbolizes "government". This also, we found. ties into creation where there are waters "above" the firmament. Waters=state of mind. 

I'd never thought about the Tower of Babel before but it is a powerful symbol. This is what comes to mind for me working from what you have said here.

First of all water always appears to me as a symbol for consciousness or "the soul". I've used metaphors such as the body being the glass and consciousness being the water. And the character armour being a dam holding back a great quantity of water.

The Tower does seem to talk about the establishment of hierarchy and its divisive effect. Before the tower we spoke the same language and were one people, afterwards we were divided and our ability to communicate was impeded by a multitude of languages. Hierarchies are maintained by two methods - lies and force. The king dishonestly claims to be God's representative on earth and/or he has anyone put to death who opposes him. Our politicians, corporate leaders, etc. use subtler methods but they still come down to lies and force. And lies and force divide us. There can be many lies but only one truth. Therefore the truth (if we can apprehend it) will bring us together but lies will drive us apart. And the only thing which truly unites human beings is love (i.e. open, honest, spontaneous, generous) communication, and such communication is not possible in power relationships.

This also emphasises the irony of this concept that God is in the sky and that one must become high and powerful to become near him and to know him. If God is seen as another word for the creative process of the universe, we are more likely to find "him" closer to the ground. The humble gardener knows God in a way that know king or Pope or university professor will ever know God. Unless, that is, they step down from their tower.

"Dogma is a defence against the brain’s capacity for free thought based on the fear that such thought might lead to a scary place."

Joe Blow - How to Be Free


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Old Seer wrote:creation

Old Seer wrote:
creation isn't material substances. It's the making of a particular personage, Adam. Water = mental or thoughts. Fowl= thoughts or ideas.  Dry land= solid foundation or placement as belief or religion. Greater light=knowledge of something. lessor light=knowledge of another thing but of less regard. Grass, being the lower of plants is humility. Trees= knowledge of life as in the tree of life vs the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's about spiritual things nor material or physical things.

This seems very similar to what Carl Jung said about books on alchemy. He claimed that they pretended to be about the attempt to turn base metals into gold, but that it was a secret symbolic language and what they really deal with is the attempt to find the psychological key which would enable them to convert their base nature into something positive. He linked this with the spiritual project engaged in by the gnostics of going within to find a transforming self-knowledge.

"Dogma is a defence against the brain’s capacity for free thought based on the fear that such thought might lead to a scary place."

Joe Blow - How to Be Free


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That's what the entire

Aussiescribbler wrote:

Old Seer wrote:
creation isn't material substances. It's the making of a particular personage, Adam. Water = mental or thoughts. Fowl= thoughts or ideas.  Dry land= solid foundation or placement as belief or religion. Greater light=knowledge of something. lessor light=knowledge of another thing but of less regard. Grass, being the lower of plants is humility. Trees= knowledge of life as in the tree of life vs the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It's about spiritual things nor material or physical things.

This seems very similar to what Carl Jung said about books on alchemy. He claimed that they pretended to be about the attempt to turn base metals into gold, but that it was a secret symbolic language and what they really deal with is the attempt to find the psychological key which would enable them to convert their base nature into something positive. He linked this with the spiritual project engaged in by the gnostics of going within to find a transforming self-knowledge.

essence of the book is about. This is where I had to change my input on the another thread referring to the early psycho dudes as fools. equaling no experience in the mental sciences. I wasn't slammed for it as the group has no authority base. It was to inform that they still use the book/information. There is conventional  Hebrew history recorded of course.

I'm down loading Joe blow at the moment. What I see at the intro at point 1 is ---the tree of life reference as we recognize it.

I don't know you take on morals as to the existance or use. But a point 2  I would say you'd be dealing with morals. We go by the basic idea of words is to express or confirm that something exists. It almost impossible to label something is it dosen't. If it can be labeled we assume it to exist until reasoned not to. It amount to not prejudging anothers insight. we all don't see something another sees. That's how our interpretations. An Item gets 4 different points of view from 30 guys---one may add the thing together with another fact. Basically we started off fairly neutral with little or no bias. I was a mild Atheist at that time.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Root of evil - animal nature or lies?

 I notice that you refer to our animal nature as the source of aggression and other forms of evil behaviour. I don't believe that this is accurate. It is true that there is aggression in animals between predator and prey and sometimes to a much lesser extent between members of the same species over mating opportunities. But, in my experience, the root cause of human aggression is usually dishonesty, something which other animals don't have much of a capacity for. And it seems to me that many of the statements attributed to Jesus are pleas for honesty.

Recently an acquaintance of mine exhibited extremely aggressive behaviour towards me. He shouted abuse at me so loudly that the police were called to escort him away. Later he came back and tried to strangle me. Why? Not for any reason which any animal would be able to identify with. He is a habitual bully who behaves aggressively towards strangers quite regularly when they have done nothing more than show friendliness towards him. He also likes to brag about his time in the Foreign Legion and to spend large amounts of time on the internet arguing abusively against those who support gay marriage. What did I do to upset him? I made a joke about gay sex between him and a friend who was in the Marines, about gay sex in the Foreign Legion, and I told him I didn't trust him when he wanted to borrow more money from me. (I'd already loaned him over a hundred dollars.)

So why the violence? Because, it seems to me, he is wed to lies. What those lies may be are not for me to speculate upon here. But if someone can't take a joke then that joke is confronting them with one of the important lies on which they have built their self-image. (Notice how some Muslim fundamentalists can't tolerate jokes about their prophet.) And to say I did not trust him indicated to him that I was onto him. That I could tell he was wedded to lies. This is how we come to be paranoid. We know on some level that we are full of shit. We are insecure because of that knowledge. But rather than own it, we project it onto others. It doesn't matter to me whether someone mocks me or my beliefs. It doesn't matter to me if someone says they don't trust me. But trust and an absence of mockery directed at them are important to those who, by lying to themselves and others, have made of themselves a fragile house of cards.

One of the central principles of the teachings of Jesus was honesty and the lack of judgement which makes it possible. The truth will set you free doesn't mean some obscure spiritual ultimate truth. It means you will feel liberated when you stop lying. If you don't give a fuck about people who are starving in Africa, then don't pretend that you do. If you think about Angelina Jolie while fucking your wife, stop telling her you aren't sexually attracted to anyone but her. Or whatever. It isn't easy, because we are afraid of being judged by others, but that is the importance of the principle of judge not that though be not judged.

As for corrupt political leaders, they exploit a culture where dishonesty is the norm. If we have integrity (are not divided against ourselves by dishonest thinking) we are much less easy to push around, even if we won't resort to violence. And a network of lies, some of them our lies, keep these people in their positions. The lies of the left wing support the interests of the right wing and the lies of the right wing support the interests of the left wing. An truly honest individual is scarier to either than a terrorist, because his ability to see himself clearly and completely makes them transparent to him. They have nowhere to hide.

 

"Dogma is a defence against the brain’s capacity for free thought based on the fear that such thought might lead to a scary place."

Joe Blow - How to Be Free


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Ok-

Aussiescribbler wrote:

 I notice that you refer to our animal nature as the source of aggression and other forms of evil behaviour. I don't believe that this is accurate. It is true that there is aggression in animals between predator and prey and sometimes to a much lesser extent between members of the same species over mating opportunities. But, in my experience, the root cause of human aggression is usually dishonesty, something which other animals don't have much of a capacity for. And it seems to me that many of the statements attributed to Jesus are pleas for honesty.

Recently an acquaintance of mine exhibited extremely aggressive behaviour towards me. He shouted abuse at me so loudly that the police were called to escort him away. Later he came back and tried to strangle me. Why? Not for any reason which any animal would be able to identify with. He is a habitual bully who behaves aggressively towards strangers quite regularly when they have done nothing more than show friendliness towards him. He also likes to brag about his time in the Foreign Legion and to spend large amounts of time on the internet arguing abusively against those who support gay marriage. What did I do to upset him? I made a joke about gay sex between him and a friend who was in the Marines, about gay sex in the Foreign Legion, and I told him I didn't trust him when he wanted to borrow more money from me. (I'd already loaned him over a hundred dollars.)

So why the violence? Because, it seems to me, he is wed to lies. What those lies may be are not for me to speculate upon here. But if someone can't take a joke then that joke is confronting them with one of the important lies on which they have built their self-image. (Notice how some Muslim fundamentalists can't tolerate jokes about their prophet.) And to say I did not trust him indicated to him that I was onto him. That I could tell he was wedded to lies. This is how we come to be paranoid. We know on some level that we are full of shit. We are insecure because of that knowledge. But rather than own it, we project it onto others. It doesn't matter to me whether someone mocks me or my beliefs. It doesn't matter to me if someone says they don't trust me. But trust and an absence of mockery directed at them are important to those who, by lying to themselves and others, have made of themselves a fragile house of cards.

One of the central principles of the teachings of Jesus was honesty and the lack of judgement which makes it possible. The truth will set you free doesn't mean some obscure spiritual ultimate truth. It means you will feel liberated when you stop lying. If you don't give a fuck about people who are starving in Africa, then don't pretend that you do. If you think about Angelina Jolie while fucking your wife, stop telling her you aren't sexually attracted to anyone but her. Or whatever. It isn't easy, because we are afraid of being judged by others, but that is the importance of the principle of judge not that though be not judged.

As for corrupt political leaders, they exploit a culture where dishonesty is the norm. If we have integrity (are not divided against ourselves by dishonest thinking) we are much less easy to push around, even if we won't resort to violence. And a network of lies, some of them our lies, keep these people in their positions. The lies of the left wing support the interests of the right wing and the lies of the right wing support the interests of the left wing. An truly honest individual is scarier to either than a terrorist, because his ability to see himself clearly and completely makes them transparent to him. They have nowhere to hide.

 


I should refrain from getting to close to mental things. while in any group one becomes cross -trained to a certain degree the mentals really aren't my thing.

 What I mean to express is---the social standards the world operates under is based on the animal side of our persons. We retain the human and use it mostly selectively. It seems that floks mostly see evolution as the making of the animal---but we see it differently. We also evolved with a human side or mentality along with the animal side. We refer this the the "humane" and the "Inhumane". We have both sides, and the world (as we see it) doesn't understand where it's problems "evolve" from.  Civilization operates and is maintained by the Animal side, and the human side is mostly used to hide or serve the animal. IE-- the Wall Mart Greeter. Coming in the door we have a human representation---but business as it's operated is run from the animal side (business doesn't have to be run from the animal side however). In this case the human is set to work for the sake of the animal. (This is stated in the book) . What "proper" Christianity is about is -one operates within the social order strictly from the human side, as Christianity and human are the same thing.

 In proper Christianity there is no God ideal at work unless one wants to refer to the self as God. But God does not apply to Adam or Christianity as it is one's self that is responsible to maintain one's human relations with others, rather then being set by ones in authority. A social authority structure originates from the animal side, and thus leads to social problems which everyone looks to -to solve social problems when it is the athoritative social structure that keeps the problems ongoing.

  Adam and Christianity are maintained from the "knowledge of the self" not from external authorities. It's a government of the "internal" not the external. Therefore then there is no such thing as "God". The only way one can be God is to lord it over others where-by one becomes (or attempts to be) God over others. This is the structure of civil society and the reason civilizations can never last and solve the problems it creates---for itself.

Lie--- lets look at the book. The time of Nimrod. In this case we have a person instituting civilization upon the people of his region. The tower of Babylon represents central government in --to tower above the masses. But to institute this idea Nimrod had to lie and deceive. What's going on here is the attempt to gather the people to a central idea, and it cannot be done without deceiving. OK-- consider this---  (biblical passage) as it has been said, as Nimrod a mighty hunter before the lord.  This is the people saying they have become like Nimrod, a predator, before the people, as people in those days were "the lord" because they had no central government until Nimrod.  So, they built this tower above the heights of the heavens---Let's go to creation---there are waters above and below the firmament. All of creation is done in the waters "below" the firmament. "Above" is the animal mentality under which by which Nimrod is constructing the government.  That means Adam was created "human", not animal or the inhumane. So what happened here is ---by one man (Nimrod) sin came into the world. Sin is the animal mind, and that makes sin a mental condition. World, in this case refers to their world not the entire planet. Sin is nothing more then "being" lower then human.

  So- what do we have---Lies, right. Civilization depends on lies to maintain superiority of certain individuals---and all individuals within a civilization must become as the leaders are, of the same mentality, and even to this day it operates on predatorism, and predators lie to remain top dog. Politics is a profession of deception, and can never be anything else.

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Old Seer wrote:x

Old Seer wrote:

x wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery

A New Testament scholar claims to have found evidence suggesting that the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is a modern forgery.

Professor Francis Watson, of Durham University, says the papyrus fragment, which caused a worldwide sensation when it appeared earlier this week because it appeared to refer to Jesus's wife, is a patchwork of texts from the genuine Coptic-language Gospel of Thomas, which have been copied and reassembled out of order to make a suggestive new whole.

 

My post was to show the difference between how the world thinks compared to JC. Now all can see why I'm not being being understood. If you go to www.smithsonian.com you'll find where they have a program on Christianity pointing to a "deciphering" of Christianity etc. What programs as these imply is---JC is not understood. But that's what our team did----decipher the book.  A reference to this fact in the book is---"I will confound the wisdom of the wise and make fools out of the scholars". What that means---floks in high places will never figure it out. They expect JC (as per previous post) to fix the problem . What they don't understand is the very fabric that they use to try to understand is faulty, mainly---superiority and predatorism which is the problem. They keep trying to solve the problem with the problem---"themselves" and those like them. If they are trying to decipher Christianity then they don't know what it is. Hence--this is why Atheists have such a problem with Christianity. The Christianity in the world since about 100 to 150 Ad is gone, and also since---hasn't been Christianity.  The social structure of the world blinds one to what Christianity actually is. In proper Christianity the social structure is based on different values. Solutions to the worlds problems can't be found by the Power, Principality and Authority structure (PP&A) because the very structure is the problem. They are blind unto themselves.

Thanks for your responses   Smiling

 You seem to have a deep understanding of the books of the bible. You put into words the thoughts and feelings that I have been having. I try to explain myself to Christians and atheists alike and they just look at me like I am crazy. Which I very well may be Smiling Even the followers of jc really had no idea what he was saying. He was a master of self, one of many that the earth has seen. The Christians always tell me that the only way to the father is through the son, and what they mean by that is only by accepting jesus as lord and savior can you know god. And that that is the only way to get to heaven. lol. First off I don't believe in heaven or hell the way they do. I don't believe that there is some magical place or an after life and I don't think jesus said anything like that. From dust to dust... star dust that is. All we have is now. Cause and effect and free will go hand in hand. It is as you say, God doesn't have anything to do with "bad things" or "good things", they just are and there could not be one without the other. I haven't read all of your stuff but I get what you are saying. Sort of. Happiness comes from the inside, from mindfulness and selflessness. Or awareness. And the world is the way it is because that is the way "we" have made it. But even as I type all of this I must remind my self that the only thing I know is that I know nothing. And that way I stay as a child, in a constant state of positive change and growth. Thank you for your posts, keep them coming. 


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Mintyfell wrote:Old Seer

Mintyfell wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

x wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/21/gospel-jesus-wife-forgery

A New Testament scholar claims to have found evidence suggesting that the Gospel of Jesus's Wife is a modern forgery.

Professor Francis Watson, of Durham University, says the papyrus fragment, which caused a worldwide sensation when it appeared earlier this week because it appeared to refer to Jesus's wife, is a patchwork of texts from the genuine Coptic-language Gospel of Thomas, which have been copied and reassembled out of order to make a suggestive new whole.

 

My post was to show the difference between how the world thinks compared to JC. Now all can see why I'm not being being understood. If you go to www.smithsonian.com you'll find where they have a program on Christianity pointing to a "deciphering" of Christianity etc. What programs as these imply is---JC is not understood. But that's what our team did----decipher the book.  A reference to this fact in the book is---"I will confound the wisdom of the wise and make fools out of the scholars". What that means---floks in high places will never figure it out. They expect JC (as per previous post) to fix the problem . What they don't understand is the very fabric that they use to try to understand is faulty, mainly---superiority and predatorism which is the problem. They keep trying to solve the problem with the problem---"themselves" and those like them. If they are trying to decipher Christianity then they don't know what it is. Hence--this is why Atheists have such a problem with Christianity. The Christianity in the world since about 100 to 150 Ad is gone, and also since---hasn't been Christianity.  The social structure of the world blinds one to what Christianity actually is. In proper Christianity the social structure is based on different values. Solutions to the worlds problems can't be found by the Power, Principality and Authority structure (PP&A) because the very structure is the problem. They are blind unto themselves.

Thanks for your responses   Smiling

 You seem to have a deep understanding of the books of the bible. You put into words the thoughts and feelings that I have been having. I try to explain myself to Christians and atheists alike and they just look at me like I am crazy. Which I very well may be Smiling Even the followers of jc really had no idea what he was saying. He was a master of self, one of many that the earth has seen. The Christians always tell me that the only way to the father is through the son, and what they mean by that is only by accepting jesus as lord and savior can you know god. And that that is the only way to get to heaven. lol. First off I don't believe in heaven or hell the way they do. I don't believe that there is some magical place or an after life and I don't think jesus said anything like that. From dust to dust... star dust that is. All we have is now. Cause and effect and free will go hand in hand. It is as you say, God doesn't have anything to do with "bad things" or "good things", they just are and there could not be one without the other. I haven't read all of your stuff but I get what you are saying. Sort of. Happiness comes from the inside, from mindfulness and selflessness. Or awareness. And the world is the way it is because that is the way "we" have made it. But even as I type all of this I must remind my self that the only thing I know is that I know nothing. And that way I stay as a child, in a constant state of positive change and growth. Thank you for your posts, keep them coming. 

Our interpretation of the book may be very deep, but the important thing is that it is new and correct. There are only 2 possible mental directions anything can be interpreted from, material or spiritual application. There is no other possible because that's the only 2 basic things that all is derived from. The book is written from either a material state of mind or a spiritual state. Only one can be correct -- as with any interpretation of any writings.

 If you have a differing point of view on anything in the book you will undoubtedly be connected to being crazy. Don't worry about it. Say your piece and let the listener define things for them self. Be at peace with it. Always take into account that you may be wrong--until you find other evidence or attachments to what you think that varify your findings or knowledge. It is not wise to believe at first glance or first hearing, and it's not wise to believe because one says they are expert, or are, regarded as an expert or an authority, or an academic because they have tenure at a higher seat of learning.

Nope- your not crazy. Keep charge of yourself.

JC is a tough pickle to chew. He belongs and is of a different mental state (world), unfamiliar to the world as it is. The "Father" is that which makes one human and different from animal minds. We come from the knowledge of good and evil. When one understands the good he is from the father (the one side of the makeup). It is the good or human side of one's self that is the same as the Father. A person from that one side of the duality is a son as the good "is" the Father. The "good" in this case is what is Human. An animalistic mind/person has a hard time understanding these precepts.

To know the self is to know Adam. If the term "God" is applied to Adam, it means Adam is/was God. Be aware the term "God" does not apply in the book. If you use it then it must apply to people, not an unknown entity separate of one's self or others. That means -to know God is to know one's self and/or others. Any other application of God is moot and has no meaning.

You are correct (as best we know). Heaven is a state of mind in happiness and contentment. It's not some place to go it's something to acquire. Hell is death or dead. Hell is nowhere and no such place can exist. When one is dead one is non-existent.

There is an after life, but that refers to "after" the present systems are removed and life will be different. There's a resurrection of the actual physically dead but we don't know how that's supposed to be or how it can happen.

Be careful there. God (if the term is used) is all that is good and all that is evil. If "we" are God then the book has in mind the good and evil "we" do. There is no "God" external of one's self or people, unless one sees a wind storm as good or evil, then a destroying wind storm can be construed as God, and it would hold as such. Even the forces of nature can be or are God. The difference is- the wind storm is not perpetrated by a cognitive being. The easiest way to understand it is---all force is God. The book is not about wind storms however- it's about us/people.

My oldest daughter tells me her Professor say there's no such thing as free will. I would say he's wrong, but not entirely. IE---If you have two choices to make it takes free will to make one. But, the choice that is logical is the one that has to be taken. If the person then makes the most logical choice then what good is free will when one had no choice but to take the logical one. The logical choice means there was no other choice. The application of free will then allows one to make the least logical choice if desired or logic is disregarded. So, think about that. Free will then can best apply to two choices that are equally logical---if that's possible. Or- a choice of blue over red which may negate any consequences of making the choice, and, if blue over red is a preference. Color cannot be logical or illogical.

Happiness is a choice. When there's nothing to be sad about why not be happy. Most people are unhappy and sad a great amount of the time and they don't know it.

Nope--the world is not the way we made it. We inherited it from previous generations. The problem is- the inheritance is not understood. People think this is the only way the world can be and know no other. JC/Adam is the other. There's only 2 possible --this one or JC-Adam

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Old Seer wrote:  If you

Old Seer wrote:

 

 

If you have two choices to make it takes free will to make one. But, the choice that is logical is the one that has to be taken. If the person then makes the most logical choice then what good is free will when one had no choice but to take the logical one. The logical choice means there was no other choice. The application of free will then allows one to make the least logical choice if desired or logic is disregarded. 

 

But one always has a choice. And most people do not make the logical choice lol. I could get up from my desk and take off all my clothes and dance naked for all the cars that are driving by. I'm going to decide to not do that btw. No telling what kind of consequences that action would produce, they would not be desirable or help me in any way. 

So think about this then. This moment in time, this one right now, is nothing but the culmination of every moment in time that has ever been. And the culmination of every choice that has ever been chosen.

One question. In your ?bible studies? what translation did you all use? What version would you suggest? for study. I currently have the ESV or english standard version. I'm assuming that being a recently translated version that it is more like the original text. Or more so than the KJV.

 

What do you think?


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Be aware

Mintyfell wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

 

 

If you have two choices to make it takes free will to make one. But, the choice that is logical is the one that has to be taken. If the person then makes the most logical choice then what good is free will when one had no choice but to take the logical one. The logical choice means there was no other choice. The application of free will then allows one to make the least logical choice if desired or logic is disregarded. 

 

 

But one always has a choice. And most people do not make the logical choice lol. I could get up from my desk and take off all my clothes and dance naked for all the cars that are driving by. I'm going to decide to not do that btw. No telling what kind of consequences that action would produce, they would not be desirable or help me in any way. 

So think about this then. This moment in time, this one right now, is nothing but the culmination of every moment in time that has ever been. And the culmination of every choice that has ever been chosen.

One question. In your ?bible studies? what translation did you all use? What version would you suggest? for study. I currently have the ESV or english standard version. I'm assuming that being a recently translated version that it is more like the original text. Or more so than the KJV.

 

What do you think?

That because one is an academic type doesn't make them right. Our team has a number of them and they were surprised to learn they didn't have the education they thought they had. We are in an authoritative based system under which the masses have given over the processes of right and wrong to a few people out of the total. You will learn over time that it is these that are the worlds problem. The consequences of what/how they think trickle down to the masses, but they hardly ever pay the tow---the masses do.  My daughters Professor has his ideas and I have mine. I don't get into correcting my daughter on her schooling. She's wise enough to make her own decisions and see flaws. It is people in the power positions that set the mental tone of society. Authority warps the mind and fools it's owner, where-after everyone under authority is also fooled. From the time one is a child one has been taught not to challenge authority, even to a point of accepting being fooled, but would rather "be" fooled then question.

Everything may require a choice to be made--I agree. Everything has it's + and it's -. But one can't always do what's logical as sometimes the logical may not serve the situation. The Smurfs learned over time not to deal in absolutes when it come to the mind. Physics, yes. The mental doesn't belong in the realm of physics.

Consequences--- decisions have consequences. As we say in the USMC, no good deed goes unpunished. It is best to comprehend consequences when making decisions, especially when others will pay the consequences for the decision made. That's covered by "morals".

I think not so much a culmination , but rather a result of everything previous. Culmination could mean that the past is still present with the present. It reminds me of a screen play I wrote , Time Zero. The present going into the past is like copper being changed to lead instantly. There is no time between the past and present. At this very instant everything is instantly past. There is no time or dimension from existing to past, and can be only one to the other, nothing in between. JC advises ti deal with today and not worry about tomorrow. To plan something is OK but don't expect tomorrow to be what you expect. But also understand--he's referring to his world not this one, and it is those in his that he is giving advice to. His way of thinking doesn't fit in this world. That's why floks don't understand why "God:" doesn't do as expected. The God of this world is not the one of the next. JC deals with the next, as he is representative of the "next". In this case, "god" and "way" mean the same.

Future-- the book predicts the future, but not by magic. a particular thought line leads to a particular result. The writer of the book did not and do not create the future --they understand/stood the consequences over time as to what end will come about. They understood that the end result of the way the world thinks is eventual self destruction. The Alpha Smurfs see that clearly at this time. That's what psychology is about, the outcome of a particular mental direction.

Any bible will do. We didn't hold to one version. Rule of thumb--if it doesn't quite fit use another. The various version give insights from different sources which makes for better outcome. How one sees something may be more useful then another. It's like a quarum that helps make a decision.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Semper Fi Teufelshunde

 Fellow devil here btw. In from 2004-2009. Got out with my body still in one piece, but my brain pretty scattered. Semper Fi marine.