Faith and Quackery

Marty Hamrick
atheist
Marty Hamrick's picture
Posts: 227
Joined: 2010-12-31
User is offlineOffline
Faith and Quackery

This isn't a thread about faith healing although it could be included here. I just don't want to get into a whizzing contest about "proven miracles" as that topic has been beaten to death ad nauseum. My earlier post about the protection of pedophiles touched on this although no Christian wanted to go there as they were more interested in protecting the Christian church's reputation from any heathen journalism out to smear their good name.

What I'm talking about is the belief that mental deficiencies such as pedophilia and ailments such as sexual addiction can be cured by some sort of religious ritual magic schtick. When Jimmy Swaggert got "caught with his pants down", he went before a board of church elders and received "prayer and counseling" and was thus deemed "delivered", contrary to what a board certified psychiatrist who appeared live via sattlelite with Geraldo Rivera stated during the incident. Ted Haggard also claims similar deliverance. In the transcripts of interviews with law enforcement officials and the late Dr. Bob Gray, retired pastor of Jacksonville's Trinity Baptist Church/College, just before he was "retired' and "sent to teach in Germany", Gray's pedophile crimes were beginning to surface (which had dated back some decades) and he went before a group of church officials and answered to some of his alledged misdeeds and "asked for forgiveness" and was thus granted, "redeemed" by the church. Some 20 years or so later, he returned to Jacksonville in terminal failing health where he faced formal charges, some dating back to the 1960's and 70's. He was arrested, required to surrender his passport and he retained council and died before the case could be formerly tried. Since then, former members of TBC have filed civil suits.

Now contrary to what I've been accused of, I have no intentions of trying to "smear the name of Christianity" or to even "paint the church with a broad brush". I just question the wisdom of A) Keeping a pedophile in a position of authority AFTER the crimes have come to light and B) Not turning these sickos in to authorities and C) Trusting a religious practice of prayer,laying on of hands, public confession to members, whatever in lieu of professional treatment. The psychiatric community has stated emphatically that there is no "cure" for pedophilia, that the best case scenario is to keep the pedophile away from children,ditto for sexual addiciton, yet in most cases, the ones I've seen anyway, the church does a holy roller song and dance and tries to declare such person "redeemed" or some such.
So my question to Christians is, if you had a case where a pastor, let's say a dynamic one as Gray was, who was said to have "Led souls to Christ by the thousands" accused of molesting a child and there was no denial from this pastor and no form of disciplinary action from the church (as well as no reporting to authorities), would you be so quick to trust the church's form of "cure"? Would you let your child be counseled privately by such a pastor after his alledged "cure"? Would you NOT want this pastor to answer to formal charges from local authorities for his crimes like anyone else? Do you really believe that ailments such as pedophilia and sexual addiction can be "cured" by some religious ritual such as an exorcism, laying on of hands or other holy ritual magic schtick, contrary to what the medical community states?

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
Marty Hamrick wrote:This

Marty Hamrick wrote:

This isn't a thread about faith healing although it could be included here. I just don't want to get into a whizzing contest about "proven miracles" as that topic has been beaten to death ad nauseum. My earlier post about the protection of pedophiles touched on this although no Christian wanted to go there as they were more interested in protecting the Christian church's reputation from any heathen journalism out to smear their good name.

What I'm talking about is the belief that mental deficiencies such as pedophilia and ailments such as sexual addiction can be cured by some sort of religious ritual magic schtick. When Jimmy Swaggert got "caught with his pants down", he went before a board of church elders and received "prayer and counseling" and was thus deemed "delivered", contrary to what a board certified psychiatrist who appeared live via sattlelite with Geraldo Rivera stated during the incident. Ted Haggard also claims similar deliverance. In the transcripts of interviews with law enforcement officials and the late Dr. Bob Gray, retired pastor of Jacksonville's Trinity Baptist Church/College, just before he was "retired' and "sent to teach in Germany", Gray's pedophile crimes were beginning to surface (which had dated back some decades) and he went before a group of church officials and answered to some of his alledged misdeeds and "asked for forgiveness" and was thus granted, "redeemed" by the church. Some 20 years or so later, he returned to Jacksonville in terminal failing health where he faced formal charges, some dating back to the 1960's and 70's. He was arrested, required to surrender his passport and he retained council and died before the case could be formerly tried. Since then, former members of TBC have filed civil suits.

Now contrary to what I've been accused of, I have no intentions of trying to "smear the name of Christianity" or to even "paint the church with a broad brush". I just question the wisdom of A) Keeping a pedophile in a position of authority AFTER the crimes have come to light and B) Not turning these sickos in to authorities and C) Trusting a religious practice of prayer,laying on of hands, public confession to members, whatever in lieu of professional treatment. The psychiatric community has stated emphatically that there is no "cure" for pedophilia, that the best case scenario is to keep the pedophile away from children,ditto for sexual addiciton, yet in most cases, the ones I've seen anyway, the church does a holy roller song and dance and tries to declare such person "redeemed" or some such.
So my question to Christians is, if you had a case where a pastor, let's say a dynamic one as Gray was, who was said to have "Led souls to Christ by the thousands" accused of molesting a child and there was no denial from this pastor and no form of disciplinary action from the church (as well as no reporting to authorities), would you be so quick to trust the church's form of "cure"? Would you let your child be counseled privately by such a pastor after his alledged "cure"? Would you NOT want this pastor to answer to formal charges from local authorities for his crimes like anyone else? Do you really believe that ailments such as pedophilia and sexual addiction can be "cured" by some religious ritual such as an exorcism, laying on of hands or other holy ritual magic schtick, contrary to what the medical community states?

 

 

First let's put things in perspective.  Everyone is a sinner, and being a Christian does not make you immune from sin and temptation.  It should make you hate sin and feel tremendous guilt when you commit such acts.   I don't believe a Christian can be instantly cured like you described unless in cases of demonic possession where the demon is controlling a person's actions.   I do believe a Christian who commits such acts does need conseling and needs to renew their spiritual life and examine if they are truly saved.

The Bible does teach that our sins are forgiven, but we may still have to face the consequences, even natural or spiritual.  Whenever you have a situation where the church leader has been caught in a great sin, the church body has a right to know and the leader should face the consequences especially the action is illegal.  I definitely don't support cover-ups or paying someone to keep their mouth shut.  The Bible also says we are to obey the laws of our government:

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 

1 Peter 2:13-15
 
 

 

 

So they definitely should be reported to the authorities if a crime has been commited.   I would also never leave a child alone with a pastor who has a pediphile past.  Even if the pastor has sincerely repented, it is a bad idea to put them in an area of temptation towards weakness they may have.   The Bible has strong words for this.  It tells us to FLEE, get away from sexual immorality and temptation in 1 Corinthians 6:18.    I believe with some of these big pastors, the power gets to their head, they lose their focus on God and get caught up with the worldly business of running a church empire.   Then Satan has an opportunity to intice them to sin with a promise that there is no way they would ever get caught.
 


Marty Hamrick
atheist
Marty Hamrick's picture
Posts: 227
Joined: 2010-12-31
User is offlineOffline
Do you think such a pastor

Do you think such a pastor should ever be allowed back to his station? My own opinion of what probably went on in some of the case I'm familiar with is that the pastor wasn't reported because some of them believed somehow that his past as a "dynamic preacher that led thousands to Christ" gave him a bit of immunity to suffering the penalties a regular sinner would. They probably were also afraid that at his age and with the nature of his crimes that he would probably not survive in prison and at the same time, cast a bad image on the church. So they "retired" him and sent him to Germany.

 

With regards to demonic possession, some would argue that pedophilia is a product of such. As an atheist, I don't buy any of that, nor do I believe that homosexuality is caused by demons (or that homosexuality is necessarily wrong among consenting adults), since I don't believe in demons,but I can see how, if one believes in what I would see as a magical cause for something, they would also buy into a magical cure. 

"Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings."