From Atheism to Theism
Offline From Atheism to Theism.
Why?
My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course, I could have given up my idea of justice by saying that it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.--C.S. Lewis
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
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If you don't want to work for the answer then just ask
God to give you the proof that you are looking for. No
Work involved there and no money. If you don't want to
Do that, then why even ask for proof.
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
Sadly it is unlikely God will carry your burden of proof either.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
I have the ability to imagine god, and even feel. It's a wonderful, but faulty, feature of my (and most poeples') brain. Just like I can relate to a character in a novel, or a movie, I can do the same thing with god. All that can possibly prove is that our brains are capable of making us feel things that aren't real. Have you ever cried at a touching moment in a movie? Same thing (perhaps not identical neurologically speaking, but I think you get the point).
You seem to be convinced that all we want is to believe. However, what we want to do is know. To the best of our abilities, we know there most likely is no god, and that the god of any religion, present or past, does certainly NOT exist.
Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.
Actually I did ask god for proof once. Me and a whole circle of devout christians who were all my friends had a nice little prayer circle and quite nicely asked god to provide me proof of his existence. Two people from that circle are dead, one went on to become soldier then an atheist and still good friend, a couple of the others are living what I guess are good christian lives and I'm not sure about the rest. I know my brother prays that god will provide me proof on at least a semi-regular basis, he even composed a christian rock song asking god to provide me proof.
Despite all of these polite requests, god has still refused. Perhaps god has sent you to this forum to provide the proof? I shall eagerly await for the prayer to be fulfilled.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
I won't comment on the 2nd paragraph, but the fist is quite parallel to my understanding. There's good and evil all around. There are natural evils from the material universe and within the actions one takes upon them selves. However as I see it just and unjust can only take place between cognitive beings. That would mean that one would have to contemplate justice rather then apply it to material. A rock cannot be just or unjust, it would be a matter of gravity if a rock fell on ones foot. Neither rock nor gravity have reasoning
The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.
https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers
Knowledge trumps faith and I'm not a Theist
Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth
...
Because I already believed that I had proof that God and Christianity existed for 25 years without really having any...
Did I not mention that?
When I finally brought my beliefs to answer for their keep, I found the religious beliefs completely lacking in any proof. At all.
It was nothing but emotion and dogma that I was indoctrinated in from birth.
The same thing that you currently subscribe to.
You've been taught to accept these beliefs without proof. And you offer no proof now.
All you offer is emotional pleas for me to believe in something WITHOUT proof.
I refuse, my friend. I won't believe in unfounded, naked assertations based on something that has never been proven. Nor something that doesn't even make internally consistent or logical sense.
I've wasted too much of my life doing so.
I wish you would decide to stop wasting any more of your life doing it either.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
What other things do you accept on the basis of no direct proof, Jim?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
The Majority of christian religions do not concentrate on
Physical proof . It is a faith driven system. Very few
Churches expand on physical evidence. College Theology does
Talk about physical proof to a certain degree. If you want
Proof, then look into the " phi (φ) design evidence ". There are plenty of
YouTube videos on it. In short summary , it talks about the mathematical
Intelligence behind Physical Nature and cosmology . If you want details then look into the videos and other reading materials .
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
You still do not understand, you need to carry the burden of proof by posting it here or directly linking (preferably you could argue the points yourself, copy-pasting is bad).
Any beliefs are ok as long as those who believe them do not make laws based on them or claim them to be the best beliefs or try to convert people to those beliefs.
If religious people could actually keep their beliefs private than there would be no problem. This is sadly not the case. Many of them wish to disenfranchise and repress criticism and nonbelievers.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
There's a good reason for that. It's because they know they can't.
There's no proof. You're supposed to just take them at their word.
Islam says that Christians are going to burn in hell.
Prove that statement is not true. You can't. You can't prove it one way or the other. Christianity and Islam have the exact same amount of proof behind them. None.
If you really believe in Hell then you cannot know that you aren't going there. You can't.
In that scenario you have a very good chance that you are screwed for eternity, my friend.
How are you going to ensure that you aren't going to hell?
If you are honest with us or even with yourself you have to admit that you're just making a very, extremely important bet on something that you can not possibly be sure of in the least.
Your best best in life is having the extremely good fortune of being born to parents that just so happen to believe in the correct religion out of all the hundreds that have existed.
The road to heaven is narrow. The road to hell is wide. The vast majority of humanity, according to the bible, is going to hell. The VAST majority.
So...if half the world is christian...well that doesn't sound very narrow.
Who's missing what? Because obviously most are missing their ticket to heaven.
Chances are, you're not going to make it.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
If in doubt about Hell , read
John 3:16.
It is crystal clear.
Yeah. So? The problem with Christianity is that everyone decides which verses to take to heart.
The very discussion that led me to questioning my faith was a discussion about apostasy.
Falling from grace.
As a Southern Baptist I believed once saved, always saved. You can't fall from Grace. Once you are written into the Book of Life you are there for good.
I was arguing with another protestant that came from a denomination that believed that you could fall from Grace.
He pointed out a verse (I don't remember which one) which clearly mentioned a name getting removed from the Book of Life.
Well, this didn't make any sense. Southern Baptists believe this is impossible. But there it was in black and white.
So are you willing to bet your eternal soul on one verse?
I hope not. To do so would be foolish.
But then, let's step back from the Bible. You can't prove that the Bible holds the truth and the Koran does not.
So what if you should be pointing out the verses in the Koran stating that all Christians are going to burn in Hell?
Take your bet.
Blind guess. No proof either way.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
The Koran has been proven that it is false ,
But that is a different topic.
You said,
If you really believe in Hell then you cannot know that you aren't going there. You can't.
John 3:16 proves it, there is no argument there.
The Gospel is clear on salvation . John 3:16
Is only the bigining .
Try to remember the verse that says that you can
Fall from grace, maybe we can disscuss it.
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
yes lets look at the john 3:16 shall we and lets exam it if it says anything about hell shall we.
King james version John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life
and for the heck of it the roman catholic Douay-Rheims, Challoner revision: For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
Ok operative word is perish which according to various dictionaries
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perish
1: To die or be destroyed through violence, privatization, etc.
2: To pass away or dissapear
3: To suffer destruction or ruin
4: to suffer Spiritual death
how about the http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perish
1: To become destroyed or ruin, to cease to exist.
Well none of that is hell, and you are using a specific verse to prove hell......I don't see any mention of hell nor suffering of eternal punishment, I see cease to exist and die or be destroyed.....the word perish means that.
As for the rest of your argument it is basically a empty threat of hell, you can't prove it exists in any way or form, as such you use the whole wait and see threat. Still doesn't make hell real. As for your comment about the Koran, well the bible has been proven to be false as well, right from the get go it is wrong, the whole creation process is completely wrong.
Really? Well why are there 1.5 billion Muslims? You do realize that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US, don't you? I think you are making a statement without a shed of any factual backing.
The Bible also says that if you don't live right you will be removed from the book of life. Regardless if you believe in Jesus.
PLENTY of Christians will argue over what John 3:16 means. I know. I've met them.
The Bible is contradictory.
That's a fact.
Therefore, you don't know which statements to accept and which ones to ignore. So you are playing a crapshoot with your eternal soul.
Good luck with that.
Maybe that works for, doesn't for me.
Why did god create hell? Nothing impelled him to do so. The "loving" god mentioned in the bible decided that it would be a really good idea to create a place of unimaginable torture and that anyone that did not stumble upon the right religion was going to spend an eternity there.
Answer me this, were you raised in Christianity? You probably were.
Now imagine this. Say you were born in a tiny town in Saudi Arabia, where 99% of the population are Muslims.
Let's say you are a good kid, love your parents, believe whole heartedly in the religion your parents and community taught to you, were kind to strangers, and a loving husband and father, a good, fine, upstanding member of your community, and passed away after a long, good, kind hearted life.
BURN YOU M.F.ING SINNER! FOREVER!!!! MUAHAHAHAHA!
Great job, God. You rock. You're also the most crazy, sadistic SOB that ever existed.
You think all those Muslims are going to hell. And they all believe that you are going to hell.
Now prove who is right.
Honestly, please prove it. I would be riveted in my fascination.
I would also become a devout Christian TODAY.
My soul rests in your hands.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Everyone will stand in the presence of God for
Judgment. Even those that are in Hell. The
Muslims will be judged according to their works
And deeds. Everyone will get what they deserve for
God is a fair and righteous God. Good works and
Good deeds will be taken into account for the unbelievers .
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
Not fair or righteous. If you believe in Hell you cannot logically believe God is fair OR righteous.
No crime ANY human HAS EVER committed deserves infinite absolute suffering.
The crime = a finite amount of suffering caused. Hell = infinite punishment. No one deserves this.
Christianity does not have graduated punishment in the original text. Even if it did, if ANYONE is sent to Hell then my point is already proven. Even a child-molester or a serial killer does not deserve infinite torture for a finite crime.
No matter how much I hate/dislike a crime does not mean I want them to be punished forever with ultimate suffering. That is sick.
Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker
Proooooove it.
Prove it.
Prove it.
Prove it.
If you and a Muslim and a Buddhist and a Hindu come to my door right now and you all try to convince me your belief system is the right one what have you got that they don't?
Show me some proof.
You don't have a single thing that any of those others don't, and none of you have proof of anything.
Quoting your King James Version, collection of Catholic approved books (yeah, the Catholics decided which books were to be included in your bible and which were not) is NOT EVIDENCE.
Admit you have no proof. Or just quote a verse from an internally inconsistent, bizarre, barbaric, poorly translated, often completely mistranslated relic of a book to me. Big whoop.
If a Muslim throws out a quote to you from the Quran does it have the stunning impact on you that you think your bible verse quotes should have on me?
Why do you believe in this stuff?
Because mommy and daddy told you it was true?
And why do they believe? Because their mommy and daddy told them?
Come on, dude. Grow up.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Why ask for proof if you Are not interested in
Proof?
I would love proof.
I'm not like some of these atheists here that would spit on god if he showed up in front of me because of some sort of principal. That's a pretty retarded move in my opinion.
If Jehovah materialized in front of me right now I would commence kissing mucho asso immediately.
I don't hate god, nor the idea of god.
I simply do not have a reason to believe in it. I honestly don't think it exists. So much so that any threats of hell and whatnot don't bother me in the slightest.
You give me proof and I will thank you until my dying days for saving my soul.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Why bother talking about this if you're not interested in providing any proof?
There are no theists on operating tables.
I used to be a "believer" Jim. And like you, I didn't understand at the time that I was the one not interested in proof.
The best you can do is tell yourself that you have all the proof you need right there in those pages or even twist the definition of proof and evidence.
If there is a god it would have been nice of him to give everyone these visions like John had, instead of expecting every other person who ever existed to base their whole life on here-say in some multi-translated and edited scribblings.
Honestly if I could close my eyes and see myself in front of the god of Abraham to be judged as a reality that I must face, don't you think I would drop everything and start from scratch at Genesis 1:1 ?
Evidently I was left out of the book of life. Looks like I'm going into the lake. Tell your asshole god I said thanks and I hope you enjoy paradise forever.
It's all poo Jim. I woke up. You should give it a try. It's quite refreshing once you start to get over the fact that you've been bamboozled. I'm still a little pissed but I'll be ok.
At first I thought I would be ridiculed cuz I used to spout drivel to everyone, but people are quite understanding when you aren't too proud to admit you were wrong. Most people would be glad for you.
"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia
Tony, it really is like that, isn't it? You all of a sudden become aware it's all a sham and it's like blinders off of your vision of the world. You see everything in a new light. It's like life becomes magical in a way that we could never have imagined before.
I use the term "wake up" with regards to me leaving religion all the time because that is what if feels like. Like you've really opened your eyes for the first time. And you seem to feel that exact same thing.
Jim, Tony and I have both been there, and we know where you are right now mentally.
Just be honest with yourself. Forget this online discussion, it isn't important.
Ask the hard questions. And don't accept vague answers that have zero factual proof behind them. Be brave for once in your life.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
We are interested in proof. I'm just not sure if you know how to present it. Saying "John 3:16 proves..." and following those words with any word that isn't "nothing", is wrong. The bible proves one thing: A bunch of people wrote some stuff, and it was all compiled into this one book, which many people today happen to think is magical.
Also, why is the Koran false? I agree with the statement, but I would like to see evidence (I really haven't gotten around to reading it yet, but I will. Until then, I would love to hear about it)
Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.
Yeah, It's kinda hard to believe that you once took that silly shit seriously isn't it? Without those blinders on the world and learning become interesting again in a new way- like when we were kids. It's like "OK things make allot more sense now. Cool"
It really is like waking up out of a dead sleep and coming two, then saying to yourself "boy did I have a stupid dream, but it seemed so real"
You can't help but to feel a little sorry for people with their nose still stuck in the bible as the world passes them by.
It's a shame that pride keeps some from facing their natural doubts and reason. It's not like you have to say "ok I'm stupid". After all, none of that crap was your idea. It was fed to you and billions of others fell for it too. For allot of us it's just the way we were raised.
"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia
If you want
Proof, then look into the " phi (φ) design evidence ". There are plenty of
YouTube videos on it. In short summary , it talks about the mathematical
Intelligence of God behind Physical Nature and cosmology . It also reveals a glimpse of the nature of God. If you want details then look into the videos and other reading materials . As for a physical vision of God. You may get one just like many others have in the past and present .
God reveals himself in many ways. Some see God in his words,
Others see him in his physical glory and some math geniuses see him in
The intelligent Measurements of the physical nature of the things of this world. These are just a few items. I believe that many loose the physical
Connection with God and it just takes some time to reconnect. Just like everything in life, nothing is free. It just takes a little bit of Jesus to get to see God. I believe in Jesus Christ as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. Farewell!
appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.
Who sees god in his words? We don't have any examples of it. None! Unless you were to prove the authenticity of the bible (as DIVINE literature), you just don't have anything to stand on. Also, if you somehow were to prove that the bible was all the word of god, then you would show that god certainly isn't infallible when it comes to writing a book that doesn't contradict itself.
If nothing is free, and it takes just a little bit of Jesus, what currency exchange centre will provide me with some, and what's the exchange rate from Canadian dollars? I don't know how much Jesus I can afford right now.
Also that last quote (which you didn't put in quotations by the way) is also just plain wrong. If you actually have seen Jesus as you have seen the sun (used your eyes, had your brain process the information) then you should see a doctor. You've had a delusion in which you saw a fictional person, who has only a few consistent traits about his appearance, and somehow was able to recognise him immediately.
Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.
The human imagination can be pretty incredible. But it doesn't make anything real.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Even if I look into the phi design evidence and am compelled by seeming intelligent design in some manner, where does that have anything to do with Christianity?
I don't get the connection there.
I'm a strong atheist when it comes to the Christian god.
With the idea of god in general I'm a weak atheist.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci