In Defense of a Kind God

TWD39
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In Defense of a Kind God

I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God.  They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

 

I'm here to tilt things back a bit in the other directions.  Over the weekend, I was reminded on just how GOOD God is when reflecting on the gifts of God.  God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable.   

 

Here are a few in no particular order:

 

1. Gift of Sleep -  Sleep is a wonderful invention.  Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies,  sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world.   No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality. 

 

2.  Laughter -  God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy.  Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act.  There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well. 

 

3.  Taste buds -  we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes.  God certainly didn't have to do this.   Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body.  Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system.  But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.

 

4.  Sex -  I don't think anyone will argue with this one.  Sex is an amazing creation.  Our society is obsessed with it.   On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure.   It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way.    However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences.  Spread of STDS, for example.

 

Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day.  Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds. 


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  Excellent post

  Excellent post ThunderJones.  I just don't have the patience to deal with a theist like TW who has more mood changes in a single thread than the worst bi-polar person I have ever known.  At least JeanChauvin maintains a fairly detatched manner while he is trolling us and doesn't cry like a baby while he is flinging his religious poo at us.


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ProzacDeathWish wrote: 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Excellent post ThunderJones.  I just don't have the patience to deal with a theist like TW who has more mood changes in a single thread than the worst bi-polar person I have ever known.  At least JeanChauvin maintains a fairly detatched manner while he is trolling us and doesn't cry like a baby while he is flinging his religious poo at us.

Thank you, kind sir. (Que random theist snidely disagreeing with you)

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TWD39 wrote:What if the

TWD39 wrote:

What if the children were being sexually abused or tortured?

 

Firstly, sorry to selectively quote-mine, but I'll do that pretty shamelessly for two reasons. One, it's exactly what Christians do with the bible. While us Atheists do too, I contend with much confidence that if you were to take it verse by verse and mark each one morally good, neutral, or abhorrent, the abhorrent would greatly outnumber the good. The second reason is that you have yet to answer me regarding your old testament prophecy. So do address that when you get time. As far as the above quote, as mentioned, we can all play the what-if game, but I mostly quoted this to point out something you should think about. For the bible to work, you have to do three things. 

1. Interpret the bible in a way to reconcile its obvious inconsistencies (which requires some high level of literary contortion).

2. Interpret the bible in a way to harmonize it with modern science (which requires the epitome of literary contortion).

3. Now, you've gone to adding "what-ifs" to mitigate the level of disgust every decent person would feel having read that piece of trash for the first time. This way, you can feel that your inerrant (lol) holy book is indeed the word of god. Awesome. 

TWD39 wrote:

God can see into the human heart.

So very early on, he creates two people. He deliberately AVOIDS instilling in them a sense of right and wrong. He then punishes them for doing wrong (the transgression being....eating the fruit that provides them their conscience!!!). That displays a lack of foresight for an omniscient being. Of course, he could have done something to make this tree less accessible.  I suppose the sadistic prick really couldn't resist writing Leviticus and Deuteronomy, so he opted to let it all go wrong instead. 

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.


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ProzacDeathWish wrote: 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Excellent post ThunderJones.  I just don't have the patience to deal with a theist like TW who has more mood changes in a single thread than the worst bi-polar person I have ever known.  At least JeanChauvin maintains a fairly detatched manner while he is trolling us and doesn't cry like a baby while he is flinging his religious poo at us.

 

I said I would tone things down so I proved you people wrong yet again when you claimed that I was avoiding the hard questions, and answered Thunder's questions directly.   Instead of offering any counter-argument, you're the one moaning and bitching about my posts.  Instead of offering an intelligent reply, you disregard it as religious poo.  Don't reply if all you can do is talk trash.

 


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TWD39 wrote: I said I would

TWD39 wrote:

 

I said I would tone things down so I proved you people wrong yet again when you claimed that I was avoiding the hard questions, and answered Thunder's questions directly.   Instead of offering any counter-argument, you're the one moaning and bitching about my posts.  Instead of offering an intelligent reply, you disregard it as religious poo.  Don't reply if all you can do is talk trash.

 

  Well said, TWD39, well said.  I will consider myself to soundly thrashed by your calm manner and peerless intellect.   Please continue....


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ThunderJones wrote:TWD39

ThunderJones wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

 

Thousands of examples? Please iterate a few of them!

Here are some of the examples of God's cruelty and immorality for you: skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html There are 1539 examples for you. What do you got?

Specific examples? Well here are some:

-Commits genocide on the entire human race, additionally killing every living thing for what humans did in the Great Flood. I guess the children of humans weren't innocent?

 

God can see into the human heart.

 Plenty of examples where God was suprised, which he should not be, considering he knows everything.

TWD39 wrote:
In Genesis 6:5, He sees that every human being except Noah had evil thoughts.

Every human? Even the children? Even the infants and toddlers? They ALL deserved to be horribly drowned? Every single one of them?

And what about the plants and animals that Noah didn't save? They all deserved to die too because of what humans did?

TWD39 wrote:
It's very possible that if God hadn't destroyed them, they would have destroyed themselves eventually.  Man is pretty good at destruction.

This is pure conjecture, you have no idea whether these people were destructive or just 'sinful'.

Even if they would have destroyed themselves, are you saying that makes it ok?

So if you are going to die anyways, it is fine for me to kill you? If a village might be wiped out by a meteor strike, It's better to just kill them first? What if my friend might commit suicide? Is it ok for me to just kill him because he might die? Even if he was definitely going to, that makes it ok?

Do we no punish someone for commiting murder even though someone might have died anyway? Yes. All of us will die eventually, I guess that means we might as well just kill each other now and get it over with.

TWD39 wrote:
Now apply your standards to the insect kingdom.

Why? They are, uh, insects. I would not kill them for no reason, or cause them undue harm, but they are not sentient or sapient beings.

TWD39 wrote:
Bugs carry disease and are an infestation.  They can bring misery to people.  But they are living creatures.  So why it is not immoral to hire an exterminator and commit mass murder on the insects.  Simply because you are a bigger more developed creature?

1) It is not simply because I am more developed, but because they are harming myself or others, or even killing people. By your logic, we should live and let live when a horde of locusts is eating all our crops.

2) Are you saying you never kill any living thing? Not even a fly? Do you eat meat? I support the natural way of life for an apex predator like ourselves, but not wanton slaughter or torture like your God does.

TWD39 wrote:
  I find it rather hypocrital for atheists to take a no mass murder stance against the Creator, but have no problem wiping out colonies of insects.  There is a parallel here.  If you do nothing, the bugs will keep multiplying, destroying and take over.  God was seeing the world in the same way.  Do nothing and evil will just wipe out everything.

 No they won't. They will either die out, or a different creature will step in with the balls to deal with the problem. Spiders are an example of a creature that would grow alongside the insect population as its primary food source multiplied. It is irrelevant anyway, because insects do not take over everything just because humans don't kill them.

Look, mass murder against thinking, feeling, sentient, sapient beings like humans is way different than pest control.

Does it say in the Bible that we would have destroyed everything? Even if everyone in the world WAS evil, why not just poof them out of existence, instead of killing them painfully by drowning? Weren't they already going to Hell or whatever? Why the extra torment?

TWD39 wrote:
ThunderJones wrote:

Tortures for eternity anyone who doesn't use the free will he gave them how he wants. If that wasn't bad enough, he dooms them to suffer infinitely for a finite crime.

So you believe the wicked should not be punished?

Never said that. Strawman alert!

I support punishment that fits the crime, and we as humans do our best with that anyways.

TWD39 wrote:
Hitler should be allowed to live on some remote island with everyone else for eternity?

Again, never said that. Your Strawman arguments are getting annoying.

I don't even believe in eternal after-life, so the question is nonsensical. He killed himself, and nothing we could have done could be justice for the millions he killed. I accept this. The best way to get justice for all those he murdered is to make sure it doesn't happen again.

TWD39 wrote:
Why should God go to the effort of creating another physical realm to house the people who are evil and thumbed their nose at Him?

Soooo maaannnyy straawwwwmaaaannn!!!

Never, ever said this. Read my posts before you reply, please?

Why not just poof them out of existence? Why torture them forever? Infinite torture is not justice, it is sadistic vengeance.

TWD39 wrote:
Hell is a highly debatable topic among Christians.   I think you can make a case for a finite hell in the scriptures where the sinners are destroyed from existance and people are punished in degrees according to their sins.  Why even have the Final Judgement if all sinners by default receive the same punishment?  Why does the Bible mention a "second death" if it is infinite punishment?

That is watered-down apologetic baloney. Hell is straight out shown to be the eternal torture chamber of anyone who did something 'wrong'. Oops, looked at a women with sexual thoughts? I guess you need to burn forever!

TWD39 wrote:
ThunderJones wrote:

- Some examples from the page I quoted

  1. "I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
    I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a damn about children. 18:32
  2. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:8
  3. Lot lied about his daughters being "virgins" in 19:8. But it was a "just and righteous" lie, intended to make them more attractive to the sex-crazed mob. 19:14

 

Thankfully, the Bible spares us from specific details of the level of perversion in this society. 

Thankfully? Why not show us why they all needed to be killed? Same goes for the civilization before the flood.

TWD39 wrote:
What if the children were being sexually abused or tortured?

What if they were well-treated and never harmed? We can play 'what if' all you want, did the Bible actually tell you something specific about how evil they were?

TWD39 wrote:
Is it better for God to allow them to keep on living in earthly torment, or deliver them from this realm into a heavenly realm?

It would have been best if no one had to suffer at all, but sadly that wasn't case apparently. Why not save the children? Did they need to die?

Once again, if you believe that children go straight to Heaven, than logically you should not have any problem with abortion, contraceptives, or infantcide. They are just going to heaven right?

Why would God even allow babies or infants that are going to die to exist at all? If a infant dies 1 day after birth, what was the point of them living at all?

TWD39 wrote:
God hates sexual sin especially because it destroys both the body and the spirit.  It defiles one of God's purest creations, intimacy through physical bonding between a man and his wife.  Jude 1:7 also gives us a clue to the level of perversion.

If sex is God's purest creation why can people not enjoy it without threat of diseases (God could have made it STD proof, right?), unwanted preganancies (which can kill), or guilt-tripping and shaming from religions?

TWD39 wrote:
God sees this as a virus that will spread among his people.  It is not immoral to annililate a virus.

 It isn't? But you were talking about how pest-control is immoral just abit ago? Viruses are living things too you know.

TWD39 wrote:
Also, God has spared mankind judgement since the OT times.  Look at how cruel mankind has been throughout the ages.  Do a search on medieval torture devices like the Judas crade.  Man has been quite inventive in finding ways to inflict misery and suffering.

 Anything man could do is nothing compared to the sickening fate those damned to Hell meet. The worst criminal in history does not, and never will, deserve infinite torture.

TWD39 wrote:
If God spared judgement on those people then it makes me shudder to think how much more wicked these people in the OT were to force God into action.

No Godly smiting of sadistic people does not mean the people God did smite were evil by association. Do we always say that someone executed for a crime (whether legally or just shot behind the chemical sheds) automatically committed it?

TWD39 wrote:
But God was also merciful in the OT.  Examples:

 

Spares the city of Ninevah

Wikipedia: The book of Jonah depicts Nineveh as a wicked city worthy of destruction. God sent Jonah to preach, and the Ninevites fasted and repented. As a result, God spared the city; when Jonah protests against this, God states He is showing pity for the population who are ignorant of the difference between right and wrong ("who cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand" [9]) and the animals in the city.

This is completely contrary to other actions in the OT. God didn't give the Eygptians a chance to repent (harden pharaoh's heart), or the Sodomites, or the millions of others he killed, right?

TWD39 wrote:
Rescues the Israelites from slavery in Egypt

Uh, but doing that, he murded thousands of innocent babies for no reason. Guess he couldn't just let the Pharoah let them leave, he wanted some baby-killing.

Could have just teleported them out, but nope. Killing thousands was better, apparently.

TWD39 wrote:
Uses prophets time and time again to give people well advanced warning before judgement.  God is slow to anger.

God is not slow to anger according the the vast majority of the OT. Turned that Job's wife to salt just because she looked back. Instant. Not even a explanation was allowed.

As for the prophets, just because someone yells about some God that is about to rain judgement down on us, we should listen? By this logic, you should believe a muslim who tells you something similair, and convert.

TWD39 wrote:
Fed the Israelites with manna. 

Proof? As well as the rest of all this stuff, it is just stories with no corroboration. Feeding some specific people hardly makes up for letting millions starve of no fault of their own.

TWD39 wrote:
Gave specific laws to Moses to protect His people from disease

This is a pretty weak one, basic hygenics? Really?

TWD39 wrote:
Gave Solomon great wisdom.  Solomon's gift to mankind was Proverbs.  Read it some times.  Many of the verses are applicable even to today's society.  It's pretty amazing.

I'll let someone else comment on this, because I have heard the Proverbs are a mishmash of other authors and such. I am not well-educated on this point, so I will not try to argue against it.

 One thing I can argue, how do you know God gave Solomon his wisdom? The Bible said so?

 

Your points for niceness in the OT, even if they were legitimate, do not make up for the bad. The good does not blot out the bad, just like the bad does not blot out the good. Unfortunately for the OT, the bad vastly outnumbers the good.

 

I gave you a page with over 1500 examples and this is all I get? Meh.

 

 

Lol so much for the olive branch.  You lasted one post before returning to ugly sarcastic atheist mode.  You merely copied and pasted a page, and expect me to do all the work by addressing every 1500 point?  Get real.   I immediately saw this work for biased garbage from people who know nothing about the Bible or basic Christian theology.  I politely said that was all I had time for.


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TWD39 wrote:  Lol so much

TWD39 wrote:

  Lol so much for the olive branch.  You lasted one post before returning to ugly sarcastic atheist mode.  You merely copied and pasted a page, and expect me to do all the work by addressing every 1500 point?  Get real.   I immediately saw this work for biased garbage from people who know nothing about the Bible or basic Christian theology.  I politely said that was all I had time for.

Uh.. ugly sarcastic atheist mode? I was responding to your claims, and your tone. It was pretty light and non-combative compared to how I could have been.

I did not expect you to respond to all 1500 points in the article! Where in the world did you get that idea? My statement was directed at (from my end) my perception of the weak response to my personal claims in addition to a few specific claims I took from that page and elsewhere. That page is a collection of examples for reference, and as a direct example of the sheer number of examples of Biblical misdeeds. I am by no means claiming every point on that page is true, just that almost 1600 things in the bible showing moral ambiguity, or in many cases, outright moral bankruptcy is a bad sign.

I'll have you know that there was no reason for me to even attempt diplomacy with you, it is for the sake of those viewing this thread (lurkers). If you are going to shut down just because I had a little sarcasm, than I do not know what to tell you. Not everyone is going to be insufferably polite all the time.

How about you actually respond to my rebuttal instead of assuming every little comment I make is worst-case-scenario atheist attack mode.

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*Yawn* I'm still waiting

*Yawn*

I'm still waiting for a rebuttal of my original rebuttal. If 'it feels good' was the best a christian could do after claiming sleep and sex were so perfect, then I think this 'debate' is long past being hammered to its conclusion.

Even many christians say that things which feel good aren't necessarily good. Actually, most do.

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TWD39
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Vastet wrote:*Yawn* I'm

Vastet wrote:
*Yawn* I'm still waiting for a rebuttal of my original rebuttal. If 'it feels good' was the best a christian could do after claiming sleep and sex were so perfect, then I think this 'debate' is long past being hammered to its conclusion. Even many christians say that things which feel good aren't necessarily good. Actually, most do.

 

I believe the evidence is quite clear that sleep and sex are both good and healthy for the human body.  What post # are you refering to?


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Sapient you were right and I sadly was wrong . .

 I'd rather come back on my belly with my tail between my legs than to be on a christian forum

Sapient wrote:

 Thanks folks for the input.  Sorry to anyone suggesting a troll tag or worse, TWD has had the theist badge restored.  

 

 

  It can be hard to get used to your style of management. Allowing Trolls and so on. With your ruling a was kinda upset with the admin, for a while. I must confess I was highly upset at your ruling. As a result was deeply embarrassed by it. Which upset me further. Then I went to a christian board and within three hours was completely shut down. Meaning I would rather be humbled and apologize to the admin in this forum. And come back with my tail between my legs than to spend another second with those bastardy bastards. Gladly come back with my tail between my legs than to spend another fucking nano-second on a 'christian' board . .  . . Just the wake up call I needed to see you were right and I was wrong. All it took was a few hours on a christian board to remind me why I never want to leave this forum!!

 


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  ThunderJones

 

 

ThunderJones wrote:

Plenty of examples where God was suprised, which he should not be, considering he knows everything.


I can't address this without specific scripture.  Most likely, the examples are a result of extreme legalistical reading of the Bible.
When God asks Adam while they are clothed, it's obvious that God already knows the answer.

 


ThunderJones wrote:

In Genesis 6:5, He sees that every human being except Noah had evil thoughts.

Every human? Even the children? Even the infants and toddlers? They ALL deserved to be horribly drowned? Every single one of them?

Did God really have a choice?  Spare the children and the cycle of evil will just continue.  There is a difference between necessary judgement
and being sadistic by taking pleasure in such acts. It's the last thing God wants to do.  And He clearly says that He takes no pleasure
in the death of the wicked.

Ez. 33.11

 

ThunderJones wrote:


And what about the plants and animals that Noah didn't save? They all deserved to die too because of what humans did?


The introduction of sin into this realm changed the landscape including plants and animals. Genesis 3:17 shows that the ground was now cursed
would produce thorns and thistles.  It sounds like God was just sick of it all and wanted to wipe the slant clean and start over.

 


ThunderJones wrote:


This is pure conjecture, you have no idea whether these people were destructive or just 'sinful'.

Even if they would have destroyed themselves, are you saying that makes it ok?

So if you are going to die anyways, it is fine for me to kill you? If a village might be wiped out by a meteor strike, It's better to just kill them first? What if my friend might commit suicide? Is it ok for me to just kill him because he might die? Even if he was definitely going to, that makes it ok?

Do we no punish someone for commiting murder even though someone might have died anyway? Yes. All of us will die eventually, I guess that means we might as well just kill each other now and get it over with.


And it's pure conjecture to assume that God is guilty as charged without knowing all the facts.  If I am the Creator of the earth and went to all
this effort to create a beautiful physical realm then I would certainly be within my right to do whatever is necessary to protect it.
And no, it is not ok for a human to kill another human.  You don't have the right.  Only God has the right to take life away. 
Everything we have belongs to him.  You only exist because He choose to create you as a unique human being.

 

 

ThunderJones wrote:

Why? They are, uh, insects. I would not kill them for no reason, or cause them undue harm, but they are not sentient or sapient beings.



I ask why because by your atheist moral standards, mass murder is never justified even by the Creator himself.  Yet humans have no problem killing
these living creatures.  Who are you to say they are not sentient?  Insects, certainly spiders demonstrate some degree of intelligence. 
Do you place more value on living things based on their level of perceived sentient-ness?

 


 

ThunderJones wrote:

Bugs carry disease and are an infestation.  They can bring misery to people.  But they are living creatures.  So why it is not immoral to hire an exterminator and commit mass murder on the insects.  Simply because you are a bigger more developed creature?

1) It is not simply because I am more developed, but because they are harming myself or others, or even killing people. By your logic, we should live and let live when a horde of locusts is eating all our crops.

 

 

So why is it wrong for the Creator of the universe to kill those who are harming His people or creation?

ThunderJones wrote:

2) Are you saying you never kill any living thing? Not even a fly? Do you eat meat? I support the natural way of life for an apex predator like ourselves, but not wanton slaughter or torture like your God does.

 

I have no problem killing insects or animals for food.  It's not a moral conflict for Christians.  It would be a moral conflict for atheists who want to hold a standard that killing is always wrong and human beings are nothing more than animals.  In that realm of atheist morality, there is no difference between cannibalism vs eating the flesh of a cow.

 

 

ThunderJones wrote:

Look, mass murder against thinking, feeling, sentient, sapient beings like humans is way different than pest control.

 

Why is it different?  They are both living creatures.  How do you know they don't feel?  Insects have been observed to learn classical conditioning.  That shows some element of not being mindless drones.  Is it more wrong to kill a beautiful butterfly?

 

ThunderJones wrote:

 

Does it say in the Bible that we would have destroyed everything? Even if everyone in the world WAS evil, why not just poof them out of existence, instead of killing them painfully by drowning? Weren't they already going to Hell or whatever? Why the extra torment?

You can What if or Why not the Bible to death.  It is pointless reasoning unless you have all the facts. 

 

 

 

ThunderJones wrote:

Again, never said that. Your Strawman arguments are getting annoying.

I don't even believe in eternal after-life, so the question is nonsensical. He killed himself, and nothing we could have done could be justice for the millions he killed. I accept this. The best way to get justice for all those he murdered is to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Then it is nonsensical to demand reasons why God is justified in his actions in the OT.  You don't believe He exists so why are you attacking His character?  My arguments are not straw-man.  I am asking relatable questions to establish a more defined focal point instead of dealing with the broad stroke brushes.

 

 

ThunderJones wrote:

 Why should God go to the effort of creating another physical realm to house the people who are evil and thumbed their nose at Him?

Soooo maaannnyy straawwwwmaaaannn!!!

Never, ever said this. Read my posts before you reply, please?

 

Why not just simply answer the question instead of complaining?

 

ThunderJones wrote:

Why not just poof them out of existence? Why torture them forever? Infinite torture is not justice, it is sadistic vengeance.

Maybe He will poof them out.  I don't know.  We really don't have enough information to go.  As I said before, there are verses to suggest that the punishment is finite.  The example in the Bible that is consistent is that God is long suffering before punishing sin, and then His punishment is swift and sudden.   The Flood was swift. The destruction of Sodom and Gomarroh was swift etc...  There is also a difference between eternally punishing and eternal punishment.   Hebrews 9:12 talks about eternal redemption.  Well Jesus isn't in an on-going process of commiting the act of of redemption. 

(On a side note, Hebrews Chapter 8 explains why the OT laws do not apply anymore)

 

 

 

ThunderJones wrote:

 

That is watered-down apologetic baloney. Hell is straight out shown to be the eternal torture chamber of anyone who did something 'wrong'. Oops, looked at a women with sexual thoughts? I guess you need to burn forever!

Easy copout there.  So why does Jesus in Matthew 10:28 say that God will destroy both body and soul in Hell?  You can't have destruction if you are keeping a creation alive for endless torture.

 


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TWD39 wrote:Vastet

TWD39 wrote:

Vastet wrote:
*Yawn* I'm still waiting for a rebuttal of my original rebuttal. If 'it feels good' was the best a christian could do after claiming sleep and sex were so perfect, then I think this 'debate' is long past being hammered to its conclusion. Even many christians say that things which feel good aren't necessarily good. Actually, most do.

 

I believe the evidence is quite clear that sleep and sex are both good and healthy for the human body.  What post # are you refering to?

I demonstrated perfectly how they are not perfect, despite your claims they were perfect. And I'm STILL waiting.

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TWD39 wrote:Did God really

TWD39 wrote:

Did God really have a choice?  Spare the children and the cycle of evil will just continue.  There is a difference between necessary judgement
and being sadistic by taking pleasure in such acts. It's the last thing God wants to do.  And He clearly says that He takes no pleasure
in the death of the wicked.

Ez. 33.11

 

I disagree with this. Children learn morality in their upbringing. What you're saying suggests that there is some sort of genetic Amalekite curse. That's a load of garbage, and more creative interpretation just to make this sadistic sky fellow seem like he's doing the right thing.

TWD39 wrote:

I believe the evidence is quite clear that sleep and sex are both good and healthy for the human body.  What post # are you refering to?

And I believe that an omnipotent god would be able to create us in a way that we are healthy without sleep. Think of how many people have died due to having to sleep (being killed in their sleep by animals, or other people). But nope. He apparently made us with this need to shut off for about 1/3 of every day. Nobody's saying these things aren't good for us, we're saying that if we were created by an omnipotent being, he could have created us not needing sleep, and could have made sex an act that doesn't transmit disease. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut he didn't. 

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.


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TWD39 wrote:ThunderJones

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Plenty of examples where God was suprised, which he should not be, considering he knows everything.


I can't address this without specific scripture.  Most likely, the examples are a result of extreme legalistical reading of the Bible.
When God asks Adam while they are clothed, it's obvious that God already knows the answer.

Why would he ask if he already knew? Point me at the verse please.

 You can't just assume something that disagrees with you is a extreme interpretation that doesn't make sense.

Please watch this video, and you will see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYFDgEOgl0k

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

In Genesis 6:5, He sees that every human being except Noah had evil thoughts.

Every human? Even the children? Even the infants and toddlers? They ALL deserved to be horribly drowned? Every single one of them?

Did God really have a choice?  Spare the children and the cycle of evil will just continue.

You know that for sure?

He is supposedly omnipotent and perfect, are you telling me that he couldn't figure out a way to avoid killing the children?

Why would the children continue to be evil, anyhow? Just because their parents were? Are you automatically evil, if your parents are? A tiny infant, is automatically evil, just because it's parents are?

TWD39 wrote:
There is a difference between necessary judgement and being sadistic by taking pleasure in such acts. It's the last thing God wants to do.  And He clearly says that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Ez. 33.11

That's what he says, anyway. Let us see what is also in Ezekiel:

baking bread with human dung, or getting drunk on human blood, cannibalism, more genocide threats.

He just kills so many people, especially when he doesn't even have too, that it only seems logical that he enjoys it.

 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:


And what about the plants and animals that Noah didn't save? They all deserved to die too because of what humans did?


The introduction of sin into this realm changed the landscape including plants and animals. Genesis 3:17 shows that the ground was now cursed
would produce thorns and thistles.  It sounds like God was just sick of it all and wanted to wipe the slant clean and start over.

 Did you even read that verse?

3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

God made plants like rose bushes have thorns now. HE cursed the plants in the first place.

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:


This is pure conjecture, you have no idea whether these people were destructive or just 'sinful'.

Even if they would have destroyed themselves, are you saying that makes it ok?

So if you are going to die anyways, it is fine for me to kill you? If a village might be wiped out by a meteor strike, It's better to just kill them first? What if my friend might commit suicide? Is it ok for me to just kill him because he might die? Even if he was definitely going to, that makes it ok?

Do we no punish someone for commiting murder even though someone might have died anyway? Yes. All of us will die eventually, I guess that means we might as well just kill each other now and get it over with.


And it's pure conjecture to assume that God is guilty as charged without knowing all the facts.

Facts? What facts? There are no facts here in the first place.

God is shown to murder, kill, and commit many crimes against humanity. If God wants to explain all the baby-killing and telling his followers to murder, rape, and enslave people, than he can go right ahead.

TWD39 wrote:
If I am the Creator of the earth and went to all
this effort to create a beautiful physical realm then I would certainly be within my right to do whatever is necessary to protect it.

Protect it?!? You got to be kidding me. He created humans in a way where he knew they would fail. He set us up for failure, and your own book even says so. If he really wanted to protect this world he wouldn't tell people that we can do whatever the hell we want with it.

He gave Adam and Eve no conscience, and then punished them for being tricked by Satan himself into getting consciences. Why would you punish someone who literally had no concept of right and wrong? They were like children.

Please watch this video, it makes my point better than I can: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQBDGMj2h-c&feature=g-user-u


TWD39 wrote:
And no, it is not ok for a human to kill another human.  You don't have the right.  Only God has the right to take life away. 
Everything we have belongs to him.  You only exist because He choose to create you as a unique human being.

Not a single proof the be found here. Even if he did make us, that does not give him the right to murder us.

Do parents have the right to kill their children because they made them? Hell no.

 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Why? They are, uh, insects. I would not kill them for no reason, or cause them undue harm, but they are not sentient or sapient beings.



I ask why because by your atheist moral standards, mass murder is never justified even by the Creator himself. 

Yes. Specifically when the 'Creator' murder millions of innocents.

TWD39 wrote:
Yet humans have no problem killing
these living creatures.  Who are you to say they are not sentient?  Insects, certainly spiders demonstrate some degree of intelligence. 

sentient (comparative more sentient, superlative most sentient)

  1. Conscious or aware.
  2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.

intelligence (countable and uncountable; plural intelligences)

  1. (uncountable) Capacity of mind, especially to understand principles, truths, facts or meanings, acquire knowledge, and apply it to practice; the ability to learn and comprehend.

Are insects conscious or self-aware? To they have to capacity to reason? Or apply knowledge? No? Question answered.


TWD39 wrote:
Do you place more value on living things based on their level of perceived sentient-ness?

 Absolutely. Humans can reason, feel a huge range of emotion, apply, learn, and comprehend knowledge, etc. The list goes on.

Dogs can feel some emotion, have some abilities to reason and learn. They can feel pain.

I would never torture a Dog. But if I had to pick between saving a Dog or a Human, I would pick the human every time (except maybe if the human was a mass murderer or something).


 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Bugs carry disease and are an infestation.  They can bring misery to people.  But they are living creatures.  So why it is not immoral to hire an exterminator and commit mass murder on the insects.  Simply because you are a bigger more developed creature?

1) It is not simply because I am more developed, but because they are harming myself or others, or even killing people. By your logic, we should live and let live when a horde of locusts is eating all our crops.

 

 

So why is it wrong for the Creator of the universe to kill those who are harming His people or creation?

It isn't self-defense or defense-of-a-third-party because he designed everything that way. Do you blame the gun or the person that pulled the trigger? God has made us the way we are according to you.

This is completely irrelevant to the fact that he tortures them eternally anyway.

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

2) Are you saying you never kill any living thing? Not even a fly? Do you eat meat? I support the natural way of life for an apex predator like ourselves, but not wanton slaughter or torture like your God does.

 

I have no problem killing insects or animals for food.  It's not a moral conflict for Christians.  It would be a moral conflict for atheists who want to hold a standard that killing is always wrong and human beings are nothing more than animals.

Another Strawman. Who ever said that 'humans are nothing more than animals'? Humans are much more than just animals, but they are also animals. Humans have many qualities that set us apart, and human life is far, far, more valuable than an insects. If you can't understand this, than you are a psychopath.

TWD39 wrote:
In that realm of atheist morality, there is no difference between cannibalism vs eating the flesh of a cow.

Huge Giant Pulsating Strawman. Where do you get the idea that all or any atheists think humans are precisely equal to all other animals?

1) Humans are not the same species as cows, therefore, by definition, it is not cannibalism.

2) Humans being an animal, is not the same as humans being equal to every other animal.

 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Look, mass murder against thinking, feeling, sentient, sapient beings like humans is way different than pest control.

 

Why is it different?  They are both living creatures.  How do you know they don't feel?  Insects have been observed to learn classical conditioning.  That shows some element of not being mindless drones.  Is it more wrong to kill a beautiful butterfly?

I just told you why it is different. Humans can think, feel emotions, are sentient, sapient, self-aware etc. If you are making the claim that insects are self-aware, you are going to need to prove that. Just because something has instinctive qualities and basic mental functions does not put it at anywhere near the same level as a human being.

 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Does it say in the Bible that we would have destroyed everything? Even if everyone in the world WAS evil, why not just poof them out of existence, instead of killing them painfully by drowning? Weren't they already going to Hell or whatever? Why the extra torment?

You can What if or Why not the Bible to death.  It is pointless reasoning unless you have all the facts.

 Nice evasion there. There are not facts to be had.

The words 'pointless reasoning' you just used makes my estimation of your intelligence go down several IQ points. Why the hell are you trying to reason if you wont use reasoning?

 I refuted your statement so you are trying to back out.

 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Again, never said that. Your Strawman arguments are getting annoying.

I don't even believe in eternal after-life, so the question is nonsensical. He killed himself, and nothing we could have done could be justice for the millions he killed. I accept this. The best way to get justice for all those he murdered is to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Then it is nonsensical to demand reasons why God is justified in his actions in the OT.  You don't believe He exists so why are you attacking His character? 

Something doesn't have to exist to discuss it. If I thought of a hypothetical mass murderer, we can still attack this person's character. Oh wait, we are talking about a mass murderer.

Your arguments are getting more desperate. Innocent until proven guilty =/= i dont have to justify anything I do

TWD39 wrote:
My arguments are not straw-man.  I am asking relatable questions to establish a more defined focal point instead of dealing with the broad stroke brushes.

Wikipedia:

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man&quotEye-wink, and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

Your questions are unrelated to the argument you directed them towards, and irrelevant. Specific actions you set up to sound stupid are not part of the discussion. My position does not entail God creating a prison universe, or letting Hitler be on an island with everyone else, or that no one should be punished for their actions.

That is strawman.

 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:
TWD39 wrote:

 Why should God go to the effort of creating another physical realm to house the people who are evil and thumbed their nose at Him?

Soooo maaannnyy straawwwwmaaaannn!!!

Never, ever said this. Read my posts before you reply, please?

 

Why not just simply answer the question instead of complaining?

Why don't you ask questions relevant to the discussion that are not strawman?

 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Why not just poof them out of existence? Why torture them forever? Infinite torture is not justice, it is sadistic vengeance.

Maybe He will poof them out.  I don't know.  We really don't have enough information to go.

You don't have enough information to go on? What about the whole bible and Christian religious doctrine?

If you don't have enough information why the hell do you believe in Hell in the first place? Obviously there is not enough information about it if you are to be believed.

TWD39 wrote:
As I said before, there are verses to suggest that the punishment is finite.  The example in the Bible that is consistent is that God is long suffering before punishing sin, and then His punishment is swift and sudden.   The Flood was swift. The destruction of Sodom and Gomarroh was swift etc...  There is also a difference between eternally punishing and eternal punishment. 

What does random acts of violence and so-called punishment that God does have to do with Hell being finite? Show me a verse that directly says that hell is finite.

TWD39 wrote:
Hebrews 9:12 talks about eternal redemption.  Well Jesus isn't in an on-going process of commiting the act of of redemption.

What does this have to do with it?

9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

What does this have to do with the concept of Hell? Just because it mentions a word, does not mean anything other than the direct context. Jesus is supposedly sacrificing for our sins. Guess God could not just change his doctrine without killing his own son?

TWD39 wrote:
(On a side note, Hebrews Chapter 8 explains why the OT laws do not apply anymore)

 Irrelevant. This discussion is your claim that God can be defended as kind. OT laws, and OT actions by God are perfectly applicable in this discussion. OT laws are a good example of God's cruelty because of the fact they ever existed or were expected to be enforced. They are sick, stupid, and cruel.

 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

 

That is watered-down apologetic baloney. Hell is straight out shown to be the eternal torture chamber of anyone who did something 'wrong'. Oops, looked at a women with sexual thoughts? I guess you need to burn forever!

Easy copout there.  So why does Jesus in Matthew 10:28 say that God will destroy both body and soul in Hell?  You can't have destruction if you are keeping a creation alive for endless torture.

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The eternal torture is the destruction of the soul? You can have a process of destroying something also be torture. I'm sure God or Satan or whatever can do whatever sick things he wants while lengthening the destruction into eternity. You are twisting the words around instead of taking them at face value. Jesus is not saying that Hell is finite here, he is telling people to fear Hell more than they fear other people.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


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Jabberwocky wrote:I disagree

Jabberwocky wrote:

I disagree with this. Children learn morality in their upbringing. What you're saying suggests that there is some sort of genetic Amalekite curse. That's a load of garbage, and more creative interpretation just to make this sadistic sky fellow seem like he's doing the right thing.

 

The problem is you are trying to force fit our modern day society into an ancient culture and time.  We don't have a level of evil in our society that existed back then.   God could foresee in the future that Amalekite children would grow up to continue the trend of murdering and attacking his people so your point is mute that the children may have grow up good.  Psalms 139:13 shows that God knows us even in the womb.

 If there is blame to be placed, it should go on the Amalekite parents who had plenty of warning, but thumbed their nose at God and decided not to retreat.

 

There is no absolutely morality apart from God. For example, the popular stance here is that there is never any justification for killing children.  They are always innocent.  Never. No exceptions.  So what it was a 9 yr old boy that stormed into the movie theater last week with a gun and started mowing people down?  Would you hold onto that stance?  At what age exactly does it become ok for a cop to be justified in using deadly force?  I imagine the opinions would vary.

 

 

God is a god of love, but the one exception is He hates sin.  He can't exist with it, and will not tolerate it indefnitely.  Romans 2:6 explains what will await sinners who don't turn from their ways.   This doesn't make God any less real.

 

 

Jabberwocky wrote:

 

And I believe that an omnipotent god would be able to create us in a way that we are healthy without sleep. Think of how many people have died due to having to sleep (being killed in their sleep by animals, or other people). But nope. He apparently made us with this need to shut off for about 1/3 of every day. Nobody's saying these things aren't good for us, we're saying that if we were created by an omnipotent being, he could have created us not needing sleep, and could have made sex an act that doesn't transmit disease. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut he didn't. 

 

And who is to say that your idea of a perfect human being is any more better than someone else's?   Mankind hasn't even come remotely close to engineering something like the human body so it's kinda hypocritical to criticize a design something that we don't even fully understand.  Modern science can't even explain things like the placebo effect, mind/body condition or how pain works.

My OP was to show that sleep is a gift.   I certainly don't want to be awake whenever I have surgery.  Imagine the horror of a civil war soldier who was wide awake while a blood soaked doctor sawed through his flesh and bone to remove a limb.  I find sleep pleasurable and enjoy a good nap.  I suspect that most other people do as well.

 

STDS are a consequence of sexual sin and a fallen world.  That doesn't mean it's a design flaw.  If I marry a woman and we are both virgins, I have no worries about STDS or have to diminish the experience with a condom.


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TWD39 wrote:The problem is

TWD39 wrote:

The problem is you are trying to force fit our modern day society into an ancient culture and time.  We don't have a level of evil in our society that existed back then.   God could foresee in the future that Amalekite children would grow up to continue the trend of murdering and attacking his people so your point is mute that the children may have grow up good.  Psalms 139:13 shows that God knows us even in the womb.

You've established god's perfect omniscience. Why did god punish 100% of humanity with this oh so fallen world, for a sin committed by Eve, when he knew she would sin? Why look away? Why not stop her for my sake? For yours???

TWD39 wrote:
 

If there is blame to be placed, it should go on the Amalekite parents who had plenty of warning, but thumbed their nose at God and decided not to retreat.

 

Show me this warning. First mention of the Amalekites in 1 Samuel I found was "And he gathered an host, and smote the Amalekites, " doesn't seem like a warning to me. It seems that Saul went in there and just slaughtered the crap out of them. I could be wrong here, so please, show me where concrete reference exists to the Amalekites getting a warning from god (and proof that he exists perhaps, like Saul had, having been directly commanded by him).

Sounds like sudden surprise genocide to me.

TWD39 wrote:

There is no absolutely morality apart from God. For example, the popular stance here is that there is never any justification for killing children.  They are always innocent.  Never. No exceptions.  So what it was a 9 yr old boy that stormed into the movie theater last week with a gun and started mowing people down?  Would you hold onto that stance?  At what age exactly does it become ok for a cop to be justified in using deadly force?  I imagine the opinions would vary.

You're comparing children sitting in a village to a 9 year old on a shooting spree. Nothing more needs to be said on my part. 

TWD39 wrote:

God is a god of love, but the one exception is He hates sin.  He can't exist with it, and will not tolerate it indefnitely.  Romans 2:6 explains what will await sinners who don't turn from their ways.   This doesn't make God any less real.

 

This is where I'd usually say "ok, so let's GRANT you all the crap about the Amalekite children being definitely evil due to their upbringing. Why then, would god not cause, say, Hitler to be miscarried? Or Stalin?" because you have an easy built in response of "These people chose to do evil" or "They chose to go against god". So we go back to the usual. Praise god for the good (he saved us from certain doom by ordering the slaughtering of children). Blame humanity for the bad. Then, this argument is over due to you moving the goal posts, and applying conflicting standards to every situation, in order to fit god into the "epitome of moral good" box.

TWD39 wrote:
 

And who is to say that your idea of a perfect human being is any more better than someone else's?   Mankind hasn't even come remotely close to engineering something like the human body so it's kinda hypocritical to criticize a design something that we don't even fully understand.  Modern science can't even explain things like the placebo effect, mind/body condition or how pain works.

So by that logic, if you drive a car, but couldn't build one yourself, you have to automatically proclaim it perfect. Cars do have one universal thing in common that they don't share with humans: they don't have a time bomb that might blow up inside them from the factory. Us humans have an appendix. 100% useless to us, the surgery isn't a breeze (if it were, we would likely have them removed in childhood) and they might explode. That is one psychotic designer. 

Also, the placebo effect is known to be mental. I'm not sure what they do know about it (too lazy to look it up once again, but I contend it's much more than you assume). We know morale is HUGE for the ill, and a placebo does well to give a patient optimism that improvement is around the corner. Quite simple.

We also know how pain works. We have nerves that send a signal to our brains we interpret as pain. It's deliberately difficult to deal with, because if we were to evolve where pain simply threw up a little signal "hey! This hurts! Fix this situation!" in our brain, our simple ancestors may have ignored it, and listened to other desires in their brain, rather than the ones that told them to get away from the lava. If such a species with that system did exist, it most certainly is long extinct. 

TWD39 wrote:

My OP was to show that sleep is a gift.   I certainly don't want to be awake whenever I have surgery.  Imagine the horror of a civil war soldier who was wide awake while a blood soaked doctor sawed through his flesh and bone to remove a limb.  I find sleep pleasurable and enjoy a good nap.  I suspect that most other people do as well.

 

Your OP was to SUGGEST not show that sleep was a gift. Frankly if I was sedated to not feel pain, I wouldn't mind observing my own surgeries. Also, if I did mind, sedation plus a blindfold would do just fine. I enjoy sleep, but it's because I require the rest and am compelled by my biology to do so. If I could have 33% tacked onto the available awake time in my life I'd take it. Instead, in your view, god designed our bodies to require sleep.

TWD39 wrote:

STDS are a consequence of sexual sin and a fallen world.  That doesn't mean it's a design flaw.  If I marry a woman and we are both virgins, I have no worries about STDS or have to diminish the experience with a condom.

Oh c'mon. STDs are a result of things like micro-organisms. If you contend that STDs are a "consequence of sexual sin and a fallen world", then you would have to say that after the "fall", god created: HIV, gonnorhea, crabs, chlamydia, HPV, genital herpes. That is one sick bastard!

Wow, I agree with you on one point though: condoms suck. However, they are necessary in this world.

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.


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TWD39 wrote:My OP was to

TWD39 wrote:

My OP was to show that sleep is a gift.   I certainly don't want to be awake whenever I have surgery.  Imagine the horror of a civil war soldier who was wide awake while a blood soaked doctor sawed through his flesh and bone to remove a limb.  I find sleep pleasurable and enjoy a good nap.

 

Modern science has a stronger grasp on sleep than you give credit and has a fairly good working hypothesis regarding why we need it.  While we are awake our brains and bodies consume ATP which steadily reduces ATP and glycogen stores (glycogen is directly converted into ATP within the cell).  Also, adenosine, a sleep inducing metabolite is released and its concentrations in the blood increase while we are awake (this is why we feel more tired after a day of higher activity versus a day of light activity).  When we sleep ATP and glycogen levels quickly rebound and adenosine levels decrease due to decrease demand by our bodies and brain for ATP.  On an interesting side note, caffeine interferes with the normal effects adenosine have giving us the feeling of less sleepiness.  The process that helps us between sleep and wakefulness is attributed to orexins, two neuropeptides that are produced in the hypothalamus and these strongly stimulate wakefulness when concentrations are high and have the reverse effect when low.   Known disorders caused by persistent, abnormally low levels of orexin is called narcolepsy.

This is a glance over of an involved topic but the short of it is,  sleep is not a gift but an evolved process that helps deal with chemical processes within the body.

KORAN, n.
A book which the Mohammedans foolishly believe to have been written by divine inspiration, but which Christians know to be a wicked imposture, contradictory to the Holy Scriptures. ~ The Devil's Dictionary


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danatemporary wrote: I'd

danatemporary wrote:

 I'd rather come back on my belly with my tail between my legs than to be on a christian forum

Sapient wrote:

 Thanks folks for the input.  Sorry to anyone suggesting a troll tag or worse, TWD has had the theist badge restored.  

 

 

  It can be hard to get used to your style of management. Allowing Trolls and so on. With your ruling a was kinda upset with the admin, for a while. I must confess I was highly upset at your ruling. As a result was deeply embarrassed by it. Which upset me further. Then I went to a christian board and within three hours was completely shut down. Meaning I would rather be humbled and apologize to the admin in this forum. And come back with my tail between my legs than to spend another second with those bastardy bastards. Gladly come back with my tail between my legs than to spend another fucking nano-second on a 'christian' board . .  . . Just the wake up call I needed to see you were right and I was wrong. All it took was a few hours on a christian board to remind me why I never want to leave this forum!!

 

 

LOL.  Thanks for saying that.  I don't get them all right, but I do give people as much leeway as possible.  I feel comfortable in doing this because the community does such a good job in responding.  We have reality on our side, and they act silly when defending their side.  Theists are free to act ridiculous, and you're free to point it out.  

 

 

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TWD,Thanks for sticking

TWD,

Thanks for sticking around.

I wonder if you think there is no single arbitrary, random event in life. As a atheist I see hurricanes, earthquakes, disease breakouts the cause of not living on a stable planet and evolving bacteria and viruses. Do you see those entirely differently? Do you think each happens under the watchful eye and permission of God. Everything that happens to you or your loved ones is a specific supernatural event, either by God or Satan (with permission from God), angels or demons (with permission from God). You refer to Romans 2:6 that God cannot exist with sin, yet he allows it to exist, so you must believe it is by His permission it does exist due to His long suffering nature (for me one of his least beneficial attributes because He doesn't do it in a void). There certainly seems precedence in the bible for God being responsible directly or indirectly for every single event in life. The story of Job of course and other texts such as

Matthew 10:29 wrote:
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.
Even roles of the dice are by His command.
Proverbs 16:33 wrote:
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
If things are so targeted, why are earthquakes and hurricanes happening in very predictable areas of the world? Does God gather evil people there? It certainly looks unorganized and messy. Has he placed destructive tools in various parts of the world to enact his punishment? Does he handpick the individuals who will die or suffer? Do you believe specific lightening strikes are by God's permission or action? What about lightening rods? Do they divert God's will? Do you think these crazy people who go into public places and shoot assault rifles that God directs the bullets to specifically hit certain people but not others? Did he allow the killer to go crazy and used him to murder and wound others? The bible does talk about God using pagan leaders to punish Israel. You must believe that that is true at a society level as well as an individual level.

What about doctors curing people today? Is that voodoo magic? Is it pointless to even take an antibiotic or have an appendectomy? If the entire medical industry were suddenly removed, would people live to the exact same day they were going to live anyway? Aborted fetuses would have instead become miscarriages? Someone trying to commit suicide would only succeed if it was his time?

If all this is the case, then it strikes me we really don't have free-will. Things will only happen in accordance to His will. We think we are free-agents because he put that thought inside us, but in fact we are a pawn on the chessboard.

Therefore discussing religion with anyone because unnecessary, don't you think? Nothing will happen without his sign off. Agree?

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


iwbiek
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danatemporary wrote: I'd

danatemporary wrote:

 I'd rather come back on my belly with my tail between my legs than to be on a christian forum

Sapient wrote:

 Thanks folks for the input.  Sorry to anyone suggesting a troll tag or worse, TWD has had the theist badge restored.  

 

 

  It can be hard to get used to your style of management. Allowing Trolls and so on. With your ruling a was kinda upset with the admin, for a while. I must confess I was highly upset at your ruling. As a result was deeply embarrassed by it. Which upset me further. Then I went to a christian board and within three hours was completely shut down. Meaning I would rather be humbled and apologize to the admin in this forum. And come back with my tail between my legs than to spend another second with those bastardy bastards. Gladly come back with my tail between my legs than to spend another fucking nano-second on a 'christian' board . .  . . Just the wake up call I needed to see you were right and I was wrong. All it took was a few hours on a christian board to remind me why I never want to leave this forum!!

 

dana, you're a big goddamn sweetheart.  such humility is a rare gem indeed on the internet.  i certainly fall short in that area.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Good onya Dana

danatemporary wrote:

 I'd rather come back on my belly with my tail between my legs than to be on a christian forum

Sapient wrote:

 Thanks folks for the input.  Sorry to anyone suggesting a troll tag or worse, TWD has had the theist badge restored.  

   It can be hard to get used to your style of management. Allowing Trolls and so on. With your ruling a was kinda upset with the admin, for a while. I must confess I was highly upset at your ruling. As a result was deeply embarrassed by it. Which upset me further. Then I went to a christian board and within three hours was completely shut down. Meaning I would rather be humbled and apologize to the admin in this forum. And come back with my tail between my legs than to spend another second with those bastardy bastards. Gladly come back with my tail between my legs than to spend another fucking nano-second on a 'christian' board . .  . . Just the wake up call I needed to see you were right and I was wrong. All it took was a few hours on a christian board to remind me why I never want to leave this forum!!

 

Welcome back.