In Defense of a Kind God

TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
In Defense of a Kind God

I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God.  They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

 

I'm here to tilt things back a bit in the other directions.  Over the weekend, I was reminded on just how GOOD God is when reflecting on the gifts of God.  God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable.   

 

Here are a few in no particular order:

 

1. Gift of Sleep -  Sleep is a wonderful invention.  Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies,  sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world.   No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality. 

 

2.  Laughter -  God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy.  Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act.  There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well. 

 

3.  Taste buds -  we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes.  God certainly didn't have to do this.   Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body.  Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system.  But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.

 

4.  Sex -  I don't think anyone will argue with this one.  Sex is an amazing creation.  Our society is obsessed with it.   On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure.   It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way.    However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences.  Spread of STDS, for example.

 

Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day.  Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds. 


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1616
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Either start over or commit

  You know after all this I think that perhaps I could be spending my time more productively in making sure you get that Troll badge. I dont know what is about you but you seem to bring the worst out of everyone.


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
ThunderJones wrote: I don't

ThunderJones wrote:

 

I don't know for a fact, but given the thousands of examples (nights) where they haven't and given the information I know about them I find it so unlikely that it is not even worth considering.  I know plenty about my parents, and have mountains of evidence towards proving their goodwill, you cannot say the same for your God.

Consistent? What about when he killed everyone except a small family? What about when he committed massacres and murders based on entrapment? (Forcing someone to commit a crime and then punishing them).

 

And there are thousands of examples demonstrating the goodwill of the heavenly Father.  OTOH, you only have a handful of OT stories where God lands down judgement on the wicked.  Without offering me the courtesy of a scriptural reference, I don't know what you are talking about with all these massacres and rape.  Bold statements with no backing support as usual.

 

ThunderJones wrote:

 

Plenty of former Christians here can tell you that their life was NOT, in fact, improved by having "a fellowship with Jesus Christ". I, for one, can tell you that my morality and good life has come from myself and my wonderful family. No God/Jesus nessecary.

 

 

Notice I said in fellowship with Christ.  Most Christians these days are Sunday only Christians who are not in true fellowship with Christ.   Were your parents atheists?  Grandparents?  Your sense of morality most likely was handed down from religious ancestors. 

 

ThunderJones wrote:

It is not a trap question. There is a third, reasonable, option. Realizing that your God is immoral and sadistic, therefore worthy of no worship.

 

Ahh yes,  third option, so I should just disregard the good things that God has given me, take the word of a God Hater atheist without question, and ignore the scriptural and cultural context of the proclaimed acts of immorality.  No thanks.  Man is fallible and rather stupid.  It took us 2000 years to figure out just how our bodies really does work.

 

Now the onus is on you to prove why the passages applies to all Christians, and not just the ancient Hebrews.  And don't run to that "I don't have to prove anything" escape route.


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1616
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Well, We are waiting .. or are we being Trolled ?

  Well,  We are waiting . . . What's it going to be? Are we about done or IS everyone being Trolled ?


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
danatemporary wrote: 

danatemporary wrote:

  Well,  We are waiting . . . What's it going to be? Are we about done or are everyone being Trolled ?

 

What are you talking about?  How is it that answering people's accusations equates to being a troll?   You certainly didn't say anything when it was suggested that I commit suicide. So it's ok for atheists to insult me, but if I dare defend myself,  I'm the troll?  Get real.

 


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1616
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
NO You get Real !!!!!!!!!!!!

   No you get real ! This is what christian failure is all about is it ?!?


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1616
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
X

  X 
 

 
    


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:And there are

TWD39 wrote:

And there are thousands of examples demonstrating the goodwill of the heavenly Father. 

TWD, anyone, even really good hearted people can justify discrimination and hatred based on their religion.  That's something you really need to come to grips with.

In my church, it was all white.  The "coloreds" had their own church.  So I sat in church over and over hearing how Jesus told us to love one another and then one sunday, when I was around 18 some kids brought their black friend to church.   No one said anything during the service, and I didn't think much of it, other than I had never seen a black person in church before, but a lot of the adults had a big problem with it and made it well known afterwards.   I was totally confused.

My mother, who is waaaay better of a person than anyone you can imagine, thinks that all gays are going to hell and she will vote against giving homosexuals the same rights that us heteros have.

Even though her beloved niece has been in a domestic partnership for the past 15 years with another woman.

Why?

Because religion has hijacked her thought processes.

I was against homosexual marriage too, until I finally admitted that Christianity is a myth that I could no longer believe in.

Afterwards I was utterly speechless about how I  could think in such a manner.

To roughly tell a quote: With or without religion there will always be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things.   But for a good person to do truly evil things...that takes religion.

And that quote is the most dead, honest, accurate observation that I have ever encountered.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


ThunderJones
atheist
ThunderJones's picture
Posts: 433
Joined: 2012-04-23
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:ThunderJones

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

 

I don't know for a fact, but given the thousands of examples (nights) where they haven't and given the information I know about them I find it so unlikely that it is not even worth considering.  I know plenty about my parents, and have mountains of evidence towards proving their goodwill, you cannot say the same for your God.

Consistent? What about when he killed everyone except a small family? What about when he committed massacres and murders based on entrapment? (Forcing someone to commit a crime and then punishing them).

 

And there are thousands of examples demonstrating the goodwill of the heavenly Father.  OTOH, you only have a handful of OT stories where God lands down judgement on the wicked.  Without offering me the courtesy of a scriptural reference, I don't know what you are talking about with all these massacres and rape.  Bold statements with no backing support as usual.

Thousands of examples? Please iterate a few of them!

Here are some of the examples of God's cruelty and immorality for you: skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html There are 1539 examples for you. What do you got?

Specific examples? Well here are some:

-Commits genocide on the entire human race, additionally killing every living thing for what humans did in the Great Flood. I guess the children of humans weren't innocent?

-Tortures for eternity anyone who doesn't use the free will he gave them how he wants. If that wasn't bad enough, he dooms them to suffer infinitely for a finite crime.

- Some examples from the page I quoted

  1. "I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
    I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a damn about children. 18:32
  2. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:8
  3. Lot lied about his daughters being "virgins" in 19:8. But it was a "just and righteous" lie, intended to make them more attractive to the sex-crazed mob. 19:14

-Murders all of eygpt's first-born because the Pharoah believed Abraham's lie and because HE MADE PHARAOH REFUSE TO LET THE JEWS GO.

That is called entrapment. "I will harden pharoahs heart"

(Another from the link, below)

-God gets angry with king Abimelech, though the king hasn't even touched Sarah. He says to the king, "Behold, thou art but a dead man," and threatens to kill him and all of his people. To compensate for the crime he never committed, Abimelech gives Abraham sheep, oxen, slaves, silver, and land. Finally, after Abraham "prayed unto God," God lifts his punishment to Abimelech, "for the Lord had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah." 20:3-18

-Dooms all humanity to a lesser difficult existence for a crime two people committed (Adam and Eve). I thought we were responsible for our own actions, not our ancestors? You disagree with this on the subject of the Amalketites, saying that even the children should have been killed because they were children of bad people and ancestors of bad people.

Do I need to go on?

 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

 

Plenty of former Christians here can tell you that their life was NOT, in fact, improved by having "a fellowship with Jesus Christ". I, for one, can tell you that my morality and good life has come from myself and my wonderful family. No God/Jesus nessecary.

 

 

Notice I said in fellowship with Christ.  Most Christians these days are Sunday only Christians who are not in true fellowship with Christ.   Were your parents atheists?  Grandparents?  Your sense of morality most likely was handed down from religious ancestors.

My parents are Christian, formerly fundamentalist members from ICOC for 14 years. My grandparents, and most of all my other family, are all pretty much part of various Christian sects. My morality was established by my great parenting and personal code of conduct, as well as healthy environment. My parents are Christian. My extended family is mostly Christian. My parents are luckily reasonable, and nonjudgemental. They are the best I could ask for, really. Amazing, in fact. They are no longer part of ICOC or any fundamentalist group.

They laughed when I told them about your question.

How do you know you are part of the 'true fellowship with Christ'? What information, other than wishful thinking, do you base this on?

How do you define a 'true christian'? You are commiting the NoTrueScotsman fallacy right here.

 

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

It is not a trap question. There is a third, reasonable, option. Realizing that your God is immoral and sadistic, therefore worthy of no worship.

 

Ahh yes,  third option, so I should just disregard the good things that God has given me, take the word of a God Hater atheist without question, and ignore the scriptural and cultural context of the proclaimed acts of immorality.  No thanks.  Man is fallible and rather stupid.  It took us 2000 years to figure out just how our bodies really does work.

 

Now the onus is on you to prove why the passages applies to all Christians, and not just the ancient Hebrews.  And don't run to that "I don't have to prove anything" escape route.

 

No, you should take a hard honest look at your religion and make sure it is right for you. Do you really want to be associated with a God like the one you have? The abrahamic God is one sick customer.

It is funny that you mention how it took us 2000 years to understand our bodies. That is no thanks to your religion, which has always held us back. That is thanks to science.

Edit: Retracting a combative statement

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
I have been asked to give

I have been asked to give TWD39 a troll badge.  I've reviewed the first few pages of this thread and don't find twd to fit the definition of trolling we typically use around here.  I do notice that TWD can go quite a few posts in a row without making an argument or addressing an argument, choosing instead to berate a person or attack a person.  While that is a violation of board rules we have a very short supply of theists around here and I do want to encourage them to post.  TWD seems to me to be a typical Christian.  TWD has no good arguments for God, and lasted about 10 posts before losing her(?) cool.  Since that point she stopped making arguments and started attacking character.  It likely makes her feel better to do so, it makes her feel like she won an argument.  Rational onlookers realize what is happening, the delusional might not.  The arguments on this site are going to sway rational onlookers towards atheism, this thread included.  TWD is helpful to this end as she illustrates the lack of cogent arguments for god.  I don't believe the correct move (reading up to page 3) is to assign a troll badge.  However seeing as how TWD is clearly very stupid, I have instead assigned the Theistard badge.  

I am about to go to the gym, when I return I will review the rest of the thread and consider the new evidence.  For now, I submit these two sentences as proof of Theistardom:

TWD39 wrote:

God didn't create Satan. Satan created Satan.  

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
 I read the last few pages.

 I read the last few pages.  Warrants an idiot avatar I think:

I'll blank it out after three thoughtful posts.

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Anyone think we should leave

Anyone think we should leave the idiot badge out of it?  I really do want to encourage theists to stay... even idiots.

 

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


ThunderJones
atheist
ThunderJones's picture
Posts: 433
Joined: 2012-04-23
User is offlineOffline
Sapient wrote:Anyone think

Sapient wrote:

Anyone think we should leave the idiot badge out of it?  I really do want to encourage theists to stay... even idiots.

 

 

I'm thinking the avatar change is a little much with the badge change.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
 I'll ponder it while I

 I'll ponder it while I workout.

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1616
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
.. not a candidate for being impartial

  How I wish Theists could chime in ..  Somehow you'll have to learn to communicate with one another.

It would not be fair for me to say anything whatsoever at this point; I am not a candidate for being impartial. Let others handle it.

The Marquis de Sade suggestions pretty much doomed her having a normal run.

 


ProzacDeathWish
atheist
ProzacDeathWish's picture
Posts: 3704
Joined: 2007-12-02
User is offlineOffline
 I vote for shelving the

 I vote for shelving the new "Idiot" avatar.   TWD39 argues like he's about 14 years old and is irritating as hell but he nevertheless provides a window into the twisted ethics of an evangelical Christian.  He therefore serves a useful purpose for us.  Let's not drive him away.

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition." Rudyard Kipling


pauljohntheskeptic
atheistSilver Member
pauljohntheskeptic's picture
Posts: 2484
Joined: 2008-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Probably too much.

Sapient wrote:

Anyone think we should leave the idiot badge out of it?  I really do want to encourage theists to stay... even idiots.

 

 

The badge change is warranted. The Idiot Avatar is probably too much.

TWD is blinded by his beliefs. He wants to debate his way, piecemeal addressing only what he cherry picks. Avoiding the hard questions asked of him. My view is he came here to proselytize, or "I show those atheists".

Not much different than the JWs, SDAs, or Mormons that come knocking physically on my door.

He walked away from me in post #239. So, I have nothing invested in any further discussion and I will not continue a discussion with him based on:

TWD39 wrote:

It's quite obvious that nothing I present will change your opinion so why bother?  I'm not going to invest years in an argument.

This leads me to think he has only short term plans. If he's not willing to spend the time as he indicated, he will eventually walk away anyway.

 

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
Sapient wrote:I have been

Sapient wrote:

I have been asked to give TWD39 a troll badge.  I've reviewed the first few pages of this thread and don't find twd to fit the definition of trolling we typically use around here.  I do notice that TWD can go quite a few posts in a row without making an argument or addressing an argument, choosing instead to berate a person or attack a person.  While that is a violation of board rules we have a very short supply of theists around here and I do want to encourage them to post.  TWD seems to me to be a typical Christian.  TWD has no good arguments for God, and lasted about 10 posts before losing her(?) cool.  Since that point she stopped making arguments and started attacking character.  It likely makes her feel better to do so, it makes her feel like she won an argument.  Rational onlookers realize what is happening, the delusional might not.  The arguments on this site are going to sway rational onlookers towards atheism, this thread included.  TWD is helpful to this end as she illustrates the lack of cogent arguments for god.  I don't believe the correct move (reading up to page 3) is to assign a troll badge.  However seeing as how TWD is clearly very stupid, I have instead assigned the Theistard badge.  

I am about to go to the gym, when I return I will review the rest of the thread and consider the new evidence.  For now, I submit these two sentences as proof of Theistardom:

God didn't create Satan. Satan created Satan.  

 

The irony I see here is it apparently makes you feel better to label Christians with these badges, or whatever they are.  Let's be honest here.  Have you ever heard of a good argument for God?  If so, please show me the link.   I find it hypocritical that I am called out for attacking others when it is perfectly ok for atheists to trash me and even suggest that I commit suicide!

 

But your responses have served a good purpose.  It has only strengthen my faith and demonstrated the ugly nature of people who live apart from God.

Now here's a rational thought.  If I was clearly "very stupid" as you suggest then why waste your time responding to me?  If I'm so stupid then you should only expect stupid replies.  That's like a NASA scientist calling someone stupid because they don't know basic chemistry, but expecting them to solve complex problems.  And then getting irritated if they don't. 

But I've demonstrated something quite telling here.   You people have no interest in hearing arguments for God.  You've demonstrated great disgust and contempt for God so you must find some way to pretend He doesn't exist. 

 

 


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1616
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
You are now a half a baby step away from that Troll badge:

  Twd39  You are a half a baby step away from that troll-badge.

 


ThunderJones
atheist
ThunderJones's picture
Posts: 433
Joined: 2012-04-23
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:Sapient wrote:I

TWD39 wrote:

Sapient wrote:

I have been asked to give TWD39 a troll badge.  I've reviewed the first few pages of this thread and don't find twd to fit the definition of trolling we typically use around here.  I do notice that TWD can go quite a few posts in a row without making an argument or addressing an argument, choosing instead to berate a person or attack a person.  While that is a violation of board rules we have a very short supply of theists around here and I do want to encourage them to post.  TWD seems to me to be a typical Christian.  TWD has no good arguments for God, and lasted about 10 posts before losing her(?) cool.  Since that point she stopped making arguments and started attacking character.  It likely makes her feel better to do so, it makes her feel like she won an argument.  Rational onlookers realize what is happening, the delusional might not.  The arguments on this site are going to sway rational onlookers towards atheism, this thread included.  TWD is helpful to this end as she illustrates the lack of cogent arguments for god.  I don't believe the correct move (reading up to page 3) is to assign a troll badge.  However seeing as how TWD is clearly very stupid, I have instead assigned the Theistard badge.  

I am about to go to the gym, when I return I will review the rest of the thread and consider the new evidence.  For now, I submit these two sentences as proof of Theistardom:

God didn't create Satan. Satan created Satan.  

 

The irony I see here is it apparently makes you feel better to label Christians with these badges, or whatever they are.  Let's be honest here.  Have you ever heard of a good argument for God?  If so, please show me the link.   I find it hypocritical that I am called out for attacking others when it is perfectly ok for atheists to trash me and even suggest that I commit suicide!

 

But your responses have served a good purpose.  It has only strengthen my faith and demonstrated the ugly nature of people who live apart from God.

Now here's a rational thought.  If I was clearly "very stupid" as you suggest then why waste your time responding to me?  If I'm so stupid then you should only expect stupid replies.  That's like a NASA scientist calling someone stupid because they don't know basic chemistry, but expecting them to solve complex problems.  And then getting irritated if they don't. 

But I've demonstrated something quite telling here.   You people have no interest in hearing arguments for God.  You've demonstrated great disgust and contempt for God so you must find some way to pretend He doesn't exist. 

  

I guess all those responses I made were only God-hate? You are only digging your grave deeper.

I and many others have explained several times that  no one suggested that you commit suicide. That is baseless projection, and really quite insulting.

If you would actually read our arguments without projecting and using strawman you would be quite aware that we are partially arguing with you to demonstrate to lurkers and other observers our opinions and facts and the inferiority of your own.

Edit: Retracted a more combative statement.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
Sapient wrote:Anyone think

Sapient wrote:

Anyone think we should leave the idiot badge out of it?  I really do want to encourage theists to stay... even idiots.

Actually, I have to put myself down for disagreeing with tagging him at all other than the general Theist tag.

He doesn't warrant it.   He's not a bad person at all.   And I really think you are causing more harm than good by insulting him with such a thing.

He's a good person.   I wish everyone would slip on some kid gloves a little with him.

He has no venom in him.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:But your

TWD39 wrote:

But your responses have served a good purpose.  It has only strengthen my faith and demonstrated the ugly nature of people who live apart from God.

Now here's a rational thought.  If I was clearly "very stupid" as you suggest then why waste your time responding to me?  If I'm so stupid then you should only expect stupid replies.  That's like a NASA scientist calling someone stupid because they don't know basic chemistry, but expecting them to solve complex problems.  And then getting irritated if they don't. 

But I've demonstrated something quite telling here.   You people have no interest in hearing arguments for God.  You've demonstrated great disgust and contempt for God so you must find some way to pretend He doesn't exist. 

TWD is right in a lot of ways.

The entire reason why we are here is to have an honest, uncensored discussion about religion.   We come on too strong a LOT to some people that try to defend their religion.   I'm just as guilty, or more guilty, than pretty much all of you guys.

But that's counter-productive when we go too far and chase someone off.

Let's just all take a step back, breathe for a few minutes, and collect ourselves.

It's all ok.  We can all be mature about this.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


Beyond Saving
Silver Member
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 4668
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:The irony I see

TWD39 wrote:

The irony I see here is it apparently makes you feel better to label Christians with these badges, or whatever they are.  Let's be honest here.  Have you ever heard of a good argument for God?  If so, please show me the link.   I find it hypocritical that I am called out for attacking others when it is perfectly ok for atheists to trash me and even suggest that I commit suicide!

 

But your responses have served a good purpose.  It has only strengthen my faith and demonstrated the ugly nature of people who live apart from God.

Now here's a rational thought.  If I was clearly "very stupid" as you suggest then why waste your time responding to me?  If I'm so stupid then you should only expect stupid replies.  That's like a NASA scientist calling someone stupid because they don't know basic chemistry, but expecting them to solve complex problems.  And then getting irritated if they don't. 

But I've demonstrated something quite telling here.   You people have no interest in hearing arguments for God.  You've demonstrated great disgust and contempt for God so you must find some way to pretend He doesn't exist. 

I suggest you examine the threads with any theist who is not labeled a "theistard" you will find some rather long and involved discussions with both sides being rather respectful. You complain about people being insulting towards you or mocking you which is a result of your own attitude. If you read the first page of posts they were all very respectful. It wasn't until you kept insisting you had this wonderful evidence but refused to present it while at the same time ignoring most of our questions and points that we stopped taking you seriously. Honestly, I took you seriously a bit longer than most theistards get from me, I usually go into full mocking mode after failing to get a serious response inside the first page. You were lucky because it was 100 degrees and for a few days I didn't want to be outside.

Since you have started crying like a baby and lashing out over trivial issues as a means of avoiding the topic being discussed, such as claiming I suggested you commit suicide when I did no such thing and even created a second post to clarify my meaning, yet you continue to cry about it 200 posts later. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously? You still have not addressed the real issue I was raising in that post which was questioning why it was right for those infants to be killed for the sins of their ancestors, but not right for you to be killed for the sins of your ancestors. 

Respect around here has to be earned by atheists and theists. You have been petulant, childish and demonstrated an unwillingness to confront any point with intellectual honesty. Therefore, you get the "theistard" badge so that those who might miss this thread know what  you are and whether they want to spend their time talking to you. The theistard badge is not permanent. If you decide to present solid arguments or at least to seriously address the questions and points made in response to you, you will find that people take you more seriously and will become less insulting/mocking.

However, be warned, some insulting and mocking will always happen but often in a friendly way- for example, review any thread in the political section and you will find more than a few insults being flung around. The difference is that none of the regulars here gets offended by being called an idiot and cries about it. Instead we respond by reinforcing our argument and maybe throwing in our own insult. I would love for a theist to seriously answer my questions, but I'm not going to hold my breath.  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
Watcher wrote:TWD39

Watcher wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

But your responses have served a good purpose.  It has only strengthen my faith and demonstrated the ugly nature of people who live apart from God.

Now here's a rational thought.  If I was clearly "very stupid" as you suggest then why waste your time responding to me?  If I'm so stupid then you should only expect stupid replies.  That's like a NASA scientist calling someone stupid because they don't know basic chemistry, but expecting them to solve complex problems.  And then getting irritated if they don't. 

But I've demonstrated something quite telling here.   You people have no interest in hearing arguments for God.  You've demonstrated great disgust and contempt for God so you must find some way to pretend He doesn't exist. 

TWD is right in a lot of ways.

The entire reason why we are here is to have an honest, uncensored discussion about religion.   We come on too strong a LOT to some people that try to defend their religion.   I'm just as guilty, or more guilty, than pretty much all of you guys.

But that's counter-productive when we go too far and chase someone off.

Let's just all take a step back, breathe for a few minutes, and collect ourselves.

It's all ok.  We can all be mature about this.

 

 

I appreciate your sincere and mature comments, Watcher.  It's definitely refreshing. 


ThunderJones
atheist
ThunderJones's picture
Posts: 433
Joined: 2012-04-23
User is offlineOffline
Watcher wrote:TWD39

Watcher wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

But your responses have served a good purpose.  It has only strengthen my faith and demonstrated the ugly nature of people who live apart from God.

Now here's a rational thought.  If I was clearly "very stupid" as you suggest then why waste your time responding to me?  If I'm so stupid then you should only expect stupid replies.  That's like a NASA scientist calling someone stupid because they don't know basic chemistry, but expecting them to solve complex problems.  And then getting irritated if they don't. 

But I've demonstrated something quite telling here.   You people have no interest in hearing arguments for God.  You've demonstrated great disgust and contempt for God so you must find some way to pretend He doesn't exist. 

TWD is right in a lot of ways.

The entire reason why we are here is to have an honest, uncensored discussion about religion.   We come on too strong a LOT to some people that try to defend their religion.   I'm just as guilty, or more guilty, than pretty much all of you guys.

But that's counter-productive when we go too far and chase someone off.

Let's just all take a step back, breathe for a few minutes, and collect ourselves.

It's all ok.  We can all be mature about this.

I disagree Watcher, the heated discussion is a firm result of the attitudes and mentalities of people like TWD, and I feel it is warranted. Sure, it is always better for us to take the moral high ground and I wont pretend I have always done so, but threads like this don't start hostile. The people in them make it that way. If you re-read the thread I am sure you will find that TWD is by far the largest belligerent.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Quote:Have you ever heard of

Quote:
Have you ever heard of a good argument for God?  If so, please show me the link.

Nope, and neither have you.

 

 

Quote:
If I was clearly "very stupid" as you suggest then why waste your time responding to me?

I didn't.  Others did, and they did so because other people will read the site.  Some of those readers will be theists who will end up leaving religion, watching you in action and reading the atheist replies will help them do so.  

 

Thanks for being here.

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
[quote =TWD36]Ok, so you

TWD36 wrote:
Ok, so you completely ignore the overall context which I demonstrated in other verses which refer to son of God as Israel.  In all your studies, did you ever consider that certain Hebrew words can have more than one meaning?  This is very important especially when Hebrew words can have more than one meaning?  This is very important especially when you have discussions on topics like hell. The ironic thing is from my perspective, atheists are the ones fitting the square pegs into the round holes.   You keep looking for the smoking gun,  ah hah that will discredit the Bible.  Most of the claimed contradictions are conceived through an extreme legalistic modern day literal English approach.  Context and language are not considered.   Or what modern day literal English approach.  Context and language are not considered.   Or what about motive?  When you started questioning Matthew, did you ask why would this guy promote a verse in Hosea as fullfilled by Jesus when it easily doesn't fit?   It would be pointless and not convince anyone But in fairness, the Bible really isn't meant to be fully understand by non-believers.  It is a spiritual book.  I seriously doubt a non-believer reading John 1:1 for the first time is going to understand what it truly means
This is where I was before I left Christianity. Trying anything and everything to convince myself I had a solid position. I did study koine greek in college and would pull out the "you need to understand the original languages". That is one of the reasons in the dark ages the catholic church knew not to give the bible to the common people in their language. It would reck havoc. And it certainly did. It is a contradictory collection of books. Prophecies were based on flimsy premises.

So I truly get what you are saying. That is why you must now tell me it is esoteric. Only a true believer can understand. I was a true believer. I was willing to commit myself to it for life. But funny how others were true believers but interpreted it differently and not just in trivial ways. Then the true believers accuse each other of not being true believers. It would be so right for people who say they are seeking truth to simply say the book does contradict itself, but their ego and fear of making god angry prevents thems from simply stating the obvious. Why wouldn't god honor honesty? That is what became apparent and very important to me. I don't have to try and make it reconcile and when I can't, tell someone they cannot possibly understand.

The preponderance and necessity for so many christian apologists is quite telling. Volumes and volumes to convince themselves they are right. As the Bard wrote, "Me thinks thou protests too much"

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
Sapient wrote:Anyone think

Sapient wrote:

Anyone think we should leave the idiot badge out of it?  I really do want to encourage theists to stay... even idiots.

 

 

I say leave it out. For me theist is sufficient. I still welcome TWD. I think he/she is sensitive to any form of insult and reacts quickly to that. I wish he/she could just overlook that as christianity teaches, i.e. turn the other cheek

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


ThunderJones
atheist
ThunderJones's picture
Posts: 433
Joined: 2012-04-23
User is offlineOffline
@TWD39, Please know that I

@TWD39, Please know that I do not hate you personally (I do, however, hate some of your statements), and despite what you say, I do not hate God. (It's hard to hate something you think is imaginary) I will reluctantly admit I have sometimes been less than gracious. Despite you (in my opinion) provoking me, I should probably take the high road and not respond in kind.

I still maintain that you have used strawman and cherry-picking. This, in my opinion, has been the real problem with your posts. If you want to discuss genuinely, than please do. My long post a bit ago still stands for your response, please read it carefully and give a genuine response if you still maintain that you have come here for honest and reasonable debate.

In the future please try to no be so touchy about profanity and insults. I, if you can make a effort at a more reasonable attitude, will in return take it down to a more civil tone and maybe we can stop throwing hostility around?

 

As a note, I have edited my last few posts to bring them down a notch as a gesture of goodwill.

Also, in tl;dr format this is /olivebranch.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


x
Bronze Member
Posts: 591
Joined: 2010-06-15
User is offlineOffline
Uneasy

 

Sapient wrote:

Anyone think we should leave the idiot badge out of it?  I really do want to encourage theists to stay... even idiots.

I feel uneasy about the giving out of such badges. Even if it is fair and accurate, it smells like ganging up.

There is no real need, as the posts speak for themselves.


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
 Thanks folks for the

 Thanks folks for the input.  Sorry to anyone suggesting a troll tag or worse, TWD has had the theist badge restored.  

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
pauljohntheskeptic wrote:TWD

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

TWD is blinded by his beliefs. He wants to debate his way, piecemeal addressing only what he cherry picks. Avoiding the hard questions asked of him. My view is he came here to proselytize, or "I show those atheists".

Not much different than the JWs, SDAs, or Mormons that come knocking physically on my door.

He walked away from me in post #239. So, I have nothing invested in any further discussion and I will not continue a discussion with him based on:

TWD39 wrote:

It's quite obvious that nothing I present will change your opinion so why bother?  I'm not going to invest years in an argument.

This leads me to think he has only short term plans. If he's not willing to spend the time as he indicated, he will eventually walk away anyway.

Wow TWD, you missed a great opportunity here. I am almost ready to become a theist again just to debate pauljohn. I have learned a lot from his posts. He has such a breadth of knowledge of biblical subjects.

 

I enjoyed his thread with Gramps.     Hopefully, Gramps will return. 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/20506

 

 Also

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17279

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


Watcher
atheist
Posts: 2326
Joined: 2007-07-10
User is offlineOffline
ThunderJones wrote:I

ThunderJones wrote:

I disagree Watcher, the heated discussion is a firm result of the attitudes and mentalities of people like TWD, and I feel it is warranted. Sure, it is always better for us to take the moral high ground and I wont pretend I have always done so, but threads like this don't start hostile. The people in them make it that way. If you re-read the thread I am sure you will find that TWD is by far the largest belligerent.

Of course not.   I don't expect you too.  I'm not here  for you, I'm here for him.

I am, "over it".   I'm done raging.   I'm much more calm and mature.   I'm not going to blame you for being younger and more on fire.  Been there, done that.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1616
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Do as you see fit. However . . .

 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Sapient wrote:

Anyone think we should leave the idiot badge out of it?  I really do want to encourage theists to stay... even idiots.

 

 

The badge change is warranted. The Idiot Avatar is probably too much.

TWD is blinded by his beliefs. He wants to debate his way, piecemeal addressing only what he cherry picks. Avoiding the hard questions asked of him. My view is he came here to proselytize, or "I show those atheists".

Not much different than the JWs, SDAs, or Mormons that come knocking physically on my door.

He walked away from me in post #239. So, I have nothing invested in any further discussion and I will not continue a discussion with him based on:

TWD39 wrote:

It's quite obvious that nothing I present will change your opinion so why bother?  I'm not going to invest years in an argument.

This leads me to think he has only short term plans. If he's not willing to spend the time as he indicated, he will eventually walk away anyway.

 
Sapient wrote:

 Thanks folks for the input.  Sorry to anyone suggesting a troll tag or worse, TWD has had the theist badge restored.  

 

    Have you ever heard of the power of suggestion? If TWD39 cries foul loud and long enough then there must be a reason. It's your party you do as you see  fit.  However, have that badge change at the ready. I am sure if the board had said nothing the badge change could have stayed. Remember TWD39 does know what a badge even is. I dont think it wise to change a badge and immediately change it back. In doing so you make of the rules of conduct a paper tiger. You do as you see fit. All the board is being far too generous, for one who isnt staying.  Oh, And thanks Brian, for you being you,. Hope you're happy, good to know you support regulars.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
ThunderJones wrote:@TWD39,

ThunderJones wrote:

@TWD39, Please know that I do not hate you personally (I do, however, hate some of your statements), and despite what you say, I do not hate God. (It's hard to hate something you think is imaginary) I will reluctantly admit I have sometimes been less than gracious. Despite you (in my opinion) provoking me, I should probably take the high road and not respond in kind.

I still maintain that you have used strawman and cherry-picking. This, in my opinion, has been the real problem with your posts. If you want to discuss genuinely, than please do. My long post a bit ago still stands for your response, please read it carefully and give a genuine response if you still maintain that you have come here for honest and reasonable debate.

In the future please try to no be so touchy about profanity and insults. I, if you can make a effort at a more reasonable attitude, will in return take it down to a more civil tone and maybe we can stop throwing hostility around?

 

As a note, I have edited my last few posts to bring them down a notch as a gesture of goodwill.

Also, in tl;dr format this is /olivebranch.

 

@ThunderJones,  I appreciate your comments, and apologize if I have offended you.  I'll work on dialing down my tone and snark on my end. 


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
danatemporary wrote:I dont

danatemporary wrote:

I dont think it wise to change a badge and immediately change it back. In doing so you make of the rules of conduct a paper tiger. 

I thought it showed that I believe the strength of this board is the community and that the community input is taken into consideration when making decisions around here.  I think it also shows willingness to change a stance when more data is given.  I changed the badge to what I was leaning towards (theistard) and I heavily weighed the responses of some long time members.  Considering that I want is to make the environment inviting for theists to read and discuss, I believe the board members who suggested we simply use the theist badge are correct.

 

A troll is typically someone that creates topics for the sole purpose of inciting anger without any interest of responding or engaging in the discussion.  TWD seems to be a rather typical fundie, one misguided and lost, someone who offers character attacks as a defense of his position because he has no real defense of his position.  I have seen some of the most respected apologists make the same juvenile and weak response, TWD seems to be for lack of a better word... normal as far as Christians go.

 

And one more thing on the note of changing the badge and changing it back.  A wise man once told me (Reginald Finley) that in order for someone to call themselves open minded they must be willing to admit they were wrong.  I am open minded, I changed my mind.  

 

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1616
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Turning over a new leaf .. ..

 Turning over a new leaf GREAT TO SEE IT.

  I'll be quiet so I dont scare the fish away :¬


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
I've been on this side of

I've been on this side of the leaf for years, you're just noticing now.

 

 

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10720
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
I saw that very quickly when

I saw that very quickly when I joined this site. It's at least part of why I've invested myself so much here.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


danatemporary
danatemporary's picture
Posts: 1616
Joined: 2011-01-12
User is offlineOffline
Yes everybody loves the board .. ..

  Yes everybody loves the board and love the way the admin handle things.

  My fondest goodBye to TWD39


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
danatemporary wrote:  Yes

danatemporary wrote:

  Yes everybody loves the board and love the way the admin handle things.

  My fondest goodBye to TWD39

 

Congrats to you and the admin for effectively killing my desire to keep posting here.  No wonder theists don't stick around.


ThunderJones
atheist
ThunderJones's picture
Posts: 433
Joined: 2012-04-23
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:danatemporary

TWD39 wrote:

danatemporary wrote:

  Yes everybody loves the board and love the way the admin handle things.

  My fondest goodBye to TWD39

 

Congrats to you and the admin for effectively killing my desire to keep posting here.  No wonder theists don't stick around.

....?

He reversed the decision to change your badge, and dana merely warned you for a post you directed at the co-founder. Leave or don't. Its no big deal.

There are theists here with thousands of posts, so it is not only us that are causing problems.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3312
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote: Congrats to

TWD39 wrote:

 

Congrats to you and the admin for effectively killing my desire to keep posting here.  No wonder theists don't stick around.

Actually, there are quite a number of theists on here, that have been here for quite some time and get and give a lot of respect.

You've stated two or three pages back that you had no desire to stay here. So why are you still here ?

Leave or stay. Up to you.  They'll be plenty to take your place.

I must say that I have debated quite a number of theists on here that did not have your petulant attitude.

Are you trying to guilt trip the whole board into bowing down and kissing your ass ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 just needed a reason

TWD39 just needed a reason to give up... other than "I give up."

 

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


ThunderJones
atheist
ThunderJones's picture
Posts: 433
Joined: 2012-04-23
User is offlineOffline
Sapient wrote:TWD39 just

Sapient wrote:

TWD39 just needed a reason to give up... other than "I give up."

 

Already had that in the form of "omg all these atheists are insulting and gangbanging me with all their discussion".

No idea whether this proclamation is the real one or not. Maybe my diplomacy and peace-offering scared TWD away from real discussion?

 

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
harleysportster wrote:TWD39

harleysportster wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

 

Congrats to you and the admin for effectively killing my desire to keep posting here.  No wonder theists don't stick around.

Actually, there are quite a number of theists on here, that have been here for quite some time and get and give a lot of respect.

You've stated two or three pages back that you had no desire to stay here. So why are you still here ?

Leave or stay. Up to you.  They'll be plenty to take your place.

I must say that I have debated quite a number of theists on here that did not have your petulant attitude.

Are you trying to guilt trip the whole board into bowing down and kissing your ass ?

 

Example?  The only one mentioned was gramps, and it looked like he finally realized how pointless it is to try to converse with you people.  The admin showed his cards.  He admitted that he has never once accepted an argument for God so why should I expect anything I post here to get any recognition or respect?  I seriously doubt that you give theist respect here especially when you refer to us in a derogatory sense as fundies.

 

 It's basically like having a discussion with a brick wall.  At least the brick wall is not as annoying.


 


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
ThunderJones wrote:Sapient

ThunderJones wrote:

Sapient wrote:

TWD39 just needed a reason to give up... other than "I give up."

 

Already had that in the form of "omg all these atheists are insulting and gangbanging me with all their discussion".

No idea whether this proclamation is the real one or not. Maybe my diplomacy and peace-offering scared TWD away from real discussion?

 

 

I'll be glad to stick around and answer topic questions directly, but not if I'm going to be chided like a child by Dana whenever I post something that she doesn't like.  The troll threat was irrelevant and pretty immature.  I was certainly defending my arguments until she derailed it.  Post #325 is proof of this.


harleysportster
atheist
harleysportster's picture
Posts: 3312
Joined: 2010-10-17
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote: Example?  The

TWD39 wrote:

 

Example?  The only one mentioned was gramps,  

Oh Teralek, Luminon, Eloise, FurryCatherder, Gramps, Caposkia to just begin with a few.

Take a look at some of the political arguments on here. Beyond and Brian37 go at it all the time. That's just one example. I've seen several Atheist vs. Atheist on political topics.

I don't think one theist participated in Vastet's thread about psychopaths, yet there were several disagreements there.

How much of this board have you actually read ?

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


ThunderJones
atheist
ThunderJones's picture
Posts: 433
Joined: 2012-04-23
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:ThunderJones

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

Sapient wrote:

TWD39 just needed a reason to give up... other than "I give up."

 

Already had that in the form of "omg all these atheists are insulting and gangbanging me with all their discussion".

No idea whether this proclamation is the real one or not. Maybe my diplomacy and peace-offering scared TWD away from real discussion?

 

 

I'll be glad to stick around and answer topic questions directly, but not if I'm going to be chided like a child by Dana whenever I post something that she doesn't like.  The troll threat was irrelevant and pretty immature.  I was certainly defending my arguments until she derailed it.  Post #325 is proof of this.

If you are staying, maybe you could respond to my last topic post then? (the big one) I'd hate a few minutes of typing to go to waste.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


TWD39
Theist
Posts: 300
Joined: 2012-07-02
User is offlineOffline
ThunderJones

ThunderJones wrote:

 

Thousands of examples? Please iterate a few of them!

Here are some of the examples of God's cruelty and immorality for you: skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html There are 1539 examples for you. What do you got?

Specific examples? Well here are some:

-Commits genocide on the entire human race, additionally killing every living thing for what humans did in the Great Flood. I guess the children of humans weren't innocent?

 

 

God can see into the human heart.  In Genesis 6:5, He sees that every human being except Noah had evil thoughts.   It's very possible that if God hadn't destroyed them, they would have destroyed themselves eventually.  Man is pretty good at destruction.  Now apply your standards to the insect kingdom.  Bugs carry disease and are an infestation.  They can bring misery to people.  But they are living creatures.  So why it is not immoral to hire an exterminator and commit mass murder on the insects.  Simply because you are a bigger more developed creature?  I find it rather hypocrital for atheists to take a no mass murder stance against the Creator, but have no problem wiping out colonies of insects.  There is a parallel here.  If you do nothing, the bugs will keep multiplying, destroying and take over.  God was seeing the world in the same way.  Do nothing and evil will just wipe out everything.

 

ThunderJones wrote:

Tortures for eternity anyone who doesn't use the free will he gave them how he wants. If that wasn't bad enough, he dooms them to suffer infinitely for a finite crime.

 

So you believe the wicked should not be punished?  Hitler should be allowed to live on some remote island with everyone else for eternity?  Why should God go to the effort of creating another physical realm to house the people who are evil and thumbed their nose at Him?  Hell is a highly debatable topic among Christians.   I think you can make a case for a finite hell in the scriptures where the sinners are destroyed from existance and people are punished in degrees according to their sins.  Why even have the Final Judgement if all sinners by default receive the same punishment?  Why does the Bible mention a "second death" if it is infinite punishment? 

 

ThunderJones wrote:

- Some examples from the page I quoted

  1. "I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
    I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a damn about children. 18:32
  2. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:8
  3. Lot lied about his daughters being "virgins" in 19:8. But it was a "just and righteous" lie, intended to make them more attractive to the sex-crazed mob. 19:14

 

Thankfully, the Bible spares us from specific details of the level of perversion in this society.  What if the children were being sexually abused or tortured?  Is it better for God to allow them to keep on living in earthly torment, or deliver them from this realm into a heavenly realm?  God hates sexual sin especially because it destroys both the body and the spirit.  It defiles one of God's purest creations, intimacy through physical bonding between a man and his wife.  Jude 1:7 also gives us a clue to the level of perversion.  God sees this as a virus that will spread among his people.  It is not immoral to annililate a virus.

 

Also, God has spared mankind judgement since the OT times.  Look at how cruel mankind has been throughout the ages.  Do a search on medieval torture devices like the Judas crade.  Man has been quite inventive in finding ways to inflict misery and suffering.  If God spared judgement on those people then it makes me shudder to think how much more wicked these people in the OT were to force God into action.

But God was also merciful in the OT.  Examples:

 

Spares the city of Ninevah

Rescues the Israelites from slavery in Egypt

Uses prophets time and time again to give people well advanced warning before judgement.  God is slow to anger.

Fed the Israelites with manna.  

Gave specific laws to Moses to protect His people from disease

Gave Solomon great wisdom.  Solomon's gift to mankind was Proverbs.  Read it some times.  Many of the verses are applicable even to today's society.  It's pretty amazing.

 

 

That's all I have time for now.

 

 

 

 


ThunderJones
atheist
ThunderJones's picture
Posts: 433
Joined: 2012-04-23
User is offlineOffline
TWD39 wrote:ThunderJones

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

 

Thousands of examples? Please iterate a few of them!

Here are some of the examples of God's cruelty and immorality for you: skepticsannotatedbible.com/inj/long.html There are 1539 examples for you. What do you got?

Specific examples? Well here are some:

-Commits genocide on the entire human race, additionally killing every living thing for what humans did in the Great Flood. I guess the children of humans weren't innocent?

 

God can see into the human heart.

 Plenty of examples where God was suprised, which he should not be, considering he knows everything.

TWD39 wrote:
In Genesis 6:5, He sees that every human being except Noah had evil thoughts.

Every human? Even the children? Even the infants and toddlers? They ALL deserved to be horribly drowned? Every single one of them?

And what about the plants and animals that Noah didn't save? They all deserved to die too because of what humans did?

TWD39 wrote:
It's very possible that if God hadn't destroyed them, they would have destroyed themselves eventually.  Man is pretty good at destruction.

This is pure conjecture, you have no idea whether these people were destructive or just 'sinful'.

Even if they would have destroyed themselves, are you saying that makes it ok?

So if you are going to die anyways, it is fine for me to kill you? If a village might be wiped out by a meteor strike, It's better to just kill them first? What if my friend might commit suicide? Is it ok for me to just kill him because he might die? Even if he was definitely going to, that makes it ok?

Do we no punish someone for commiting murder even though someone might have died anyway? Yes. All of us will die eventually, I guess that means we might as well just kill each other now and get it over with.

TWD39 wrote:
Now apply your standards to the insect kingdom.

Why? They are, uh, insects. I would not kill them for no reason, or cause them undue harm, but they are not sentient or sapient beings.

TWD39 wrote:
Bugs carry disease and are an infestation.  They can bring misery to people.  But they are living creatures.  So why it is not immoral to hire an exterminator and commit mass murder on the insects.  Simply because you are a bigger more developed creature?

1) It is not simply because I am more developed, but because they are harming myself or others, or even killing people. By your logic, we should live and let live when a horde of locusts is eating all our crops.

2) Are you saying you never kill any living thing? Not even a fly? Do you eat meat? I support the natural way of life for an apex predator like ourselves, but not wanton slaughter or torture like your God does.

TWD39 wrote:
  I find it rather hypocrital for atheists to take a no mass murder stance against the Creator, but have no problem wiping out colonies of insects.  There is a parallel here.  If you do nothing, the bugs will keep multiplying, destroying and take over.  God was seeing the world in the same way.  Do nothing and evil will just wipe out everything.

 No they won't. They will either die out, or a different creature will step in with the balls to deal with the problem. Spiders are an example of a creature that would grow alongside the insect population as its primary food source multiplied. It is irrelevant anyway, because insects do not take over everything just because humans don't kill them.

Look, mass murder against thinking, feeling, sentient, sapient beings like humans is way different than pest control.

Does it say in the Bible that we would have destroyed everything? Even if everyone in the world WAS evil, why not just poof them out of existence, instead of killing them painfully by drowning? Weren't they already going to Hell or whatever? Why the extra torment?

TWD39 wrote:
ThunderJones wrote:

Tortures for eternity anyone who doesn't use the free will he gave them how he wants. If that wasn't bad enough, he dooms them to suffer infinitely for a finite crime.

So you believe the wicked should not be punished?

Never said that. Strawman alert!

I support punishment that fits the crime, and we as humans do our best with that anyways.

TWD39 wrote:
Hitler should be allowed to live on some remote island with everyone else for eternity?

Again, never said that. Your Strawman arguments are getting annoying.

I don't even believe in eternal after-life, so the question is nonsensical. He killed himself, and nothing we could have done could be justice for the millions he killed. I accept this. The best way to get justice for all those he murdered is to make sure it doesn't happen again.

TWD39 wrote:
Why should God go to the effort of creating another physical realm to house the people who are evil and thumbed their nose at Him?

Soooo maaannnyy straawwwwmaaaannn!!!

Never, ever said this. Read my posts before you reply, please?

Why not just poof them out of existence? Why torture them forever? Infinite torture is not justice, it is sadistic vengeance.

TWD39 wrote:
Hell is a highly debatable topic among Christians.   I think you can make a case for a finite hell in the scriptures where the sinners are destroyed from existance and people are punished in degrees according to their sins.  Why even have the Final Judgement if all sinners by default receive the same punishment?  Why does the Bible mention a "second death" if it is infinite punishment?

That is watered-down apologetic baloney. Hell is straight out shown to be the eternal torture chamber of anyone who did something 'wrong'. Oops, looked at a women with sexual thoughts? I guess you need to burn forever!

TWD39 wrote:
ThunderJones wrote:

- Some examples from the page I quoted

  1. "I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
    I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a damn about children. 18:32
  2. Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:8
  3. Lot lied about his daughters being "virgins" in 19:8. But it was a "just and righteous" lie, intended to make them more attractive to the sex-crazed mob. 19:14

 

Thankfully, the Bible spares us from specific details of the level of perversion in this society. 

Thankfully? Why not show us why they all needed to be killed? Same goes for the civilization before the flood.

TWD39 wrote:
What if the children were being sexually abused or tortured?

What if they were well-treated and never harmed? We can play 'what if' all you want, did the Bible actually tell you something specific about how evil they were?

TWD39 wrote:
Is it better for God to allow them to keep on living in earthly torment, or deliver them from this realm into a heavenly realm?

It would have been best if no one had to suffer at all, but sadly that wasn't case apparently. Why not save the children? Did they need to die?

Once again, if you believe that children go straight to Heaven, than logically you should not have any problem with abortion, contraceptives, or infantcide. They are just going to heaven right?

Why would God even allow babies or infants that are going to die to exist at all? If a infant dies 1 day after birth, what was the point of them living at all?

TWD39 wrote:
God hates sexual sin especially because it destroys both the body and the spirit.  It defiles one of God's purest creations, intimacy through physical bonding between a man and his wife.  Jude 1:7 also gives us a clue to the level of perversion.

If sex is God's purest creation why can people not enjoy it without threat of diseases (God could have made it STD proof, right?), unwanted preganancies (which can kill), or guilt-tripping and shaming from religions?

TWD39 wrote:
God sees this as a virus that will spread among his people.  It is not immoral to annililate a virus.

 It isn't? But you were talking about how pest-control is immoral just abit ago? Viruses are living things too you know.

TWD39 wrote:
Also, God has spared mankind judgement since the OT times.  Look at how cruel mankind has been throughout the ages.  Do a search on medieval torture devices like the Judas crade.  Man has been quite inventive in finding ways to inflict misery and suffering.

 Anything man could do is nothing compared to the sickening fate those damned to Hell meet. The worst criminal in history does not, and never will, deserve infinite torture.

TWD39 wrote:
If God spared judgement on those people then it makes me shudder to think how much more wicked these people in the OT were to force God into action.

No Godly smiting of sadistic people does not mean the people God did smite were evil by association. Do we always say that someone executed for a crime (whether legally or just shot behind the chemical sheds) automatically committed it?

TWD39 wrote:
But God was also merciful in the OT.  Examples:

 

Spares the city of Ninevah

Wikipedia: The book of Jonah depicts Nineveh as a wicked city worthy of destruction. God sent Jonah to preach, and the Ninevites fasted and repented. As a result, God spared the city; when Jonah protests against this, God states He is showing pity for the population who are ignorant of the difference between right and wrong ("who cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand" [9]) and the animals in the city.

This is completely contrary to other actions in the OT. God didn't give the Eygptians a chance to repent (harden pharaoh's heart), or the Sodomites, or the millions of others he killed, right?

TWD39 wrote:
Rescues the Israelites from slavery in Egypt

Uh, but doing that, he murded thousands of innocent babies for no reason. Guess he couldn't just let the Pharoah let them leave, he wanted some baby-killing.

Could have just teleported them out, but nope. Killing thousands was better, apparently.

TWD39 wrote:
Uses prophets time and time again to give people well advanced warning before judgement.  God is slow to anger.

God is not slow to anger according the the vast majority of the OT. Turned that Job's wife to salt just because she looked back. Instant. Not even a explanation was allowed.

As for the prophets, just because someone yells about some God that is about to rain judgement down on us, we should listen? By this logic, you should believe a muslim who tells you something similair, and convert.

TWD39 wrote:
Fed the Israelites with manna. 

Proof? As well as the rest of all this stuff, it is just stories with no corroboration. Feeding some specific people hardly makes up for letting millions starve of no fault of their own.

TWD39 wrote:
Gave specific laws to Moses to protect His people from disease

This is a pretty weak one, basic hygenics? Really?

TWD39 wrote:
Gave Solomon great wisdom.  Solomon's gift to mankind was Proverbs.  Read it some times.  Many of the verses are applicable even to today's society.  It's pretty amazing.

I'll let someone else comment on this, because I have heard the Proverbs are a mishmash of other authors and such. I am not well-educated on this point, so I will not try to argue against it.

 One thing I can argue, how do you know God gave Solomon his wisdom? The Bible said so?

 

Your points for niceness in the OT, even if they were legitimate, do not make up for the bad. The good does not blot out the bad, just like the bad does not blot out the good. Unfortunately for the OT, the bad vastly outnumbers the good.

 

I gave you a page with over 1500 examples and this is all I get? Meh.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker