In Defense of a Kind God

TWD39
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In Defense of a Kind God

I've noticed that atheists tend to be a glass half empty person when it comes to discussions on God.  They put extreme focus on the negative, declaring God to be a brute, unjust, unloving, unmeriful Creator as it this perspective somehow validates the notion that God is a man-made construct.

 

I'm here to tilt things back a bit in the other directions.  Over the weekend, I was reminded on just how GOOD God is when reflecting on the gifts of God.  God has given us quite a lot to make it through this life without being completely miserable.   

 

Here are a few in no particular order:

 

1. Gift of Sleep -  Sleep is a wonderful invention.  Not only does it allow our bodies to recharge and renew energies,  sleep gives us an opportunity to shut off from the world.   No matter how tough my life is, I can always look forward to 6-8 hours a night escaping from reality. 

 

2.  Laughter -  God gave us this ability to have a physical release called laughter that for a moment, brings happiness and joy.  Science can only explain the mechanism behind the act.  There are well documented medical benefits to having a good laugh as well. 

 

3.  Taste buds -  we have up to 8,000 taste buds designed to give us sensations of pleasure with certain tastes.  God certainly didn't have to do this.   Taste of food is not necessary to substain the human body.  Taste doesn't matter to the digestive system.  But we have taste to enjoy a wide variety of foods.

 

4.  Sex -  I don't think anyone will argue with this one.  Sex is an amazing creation.  Our society is obsessed with it.   On a physical level, sex offers many benefits such as stress reduction and lower blood pressure.   It also serves to bring an emotional bond to a couple on a level that can't be experienced any other way.    However, whenevery you mess around with this powerful force outside God's requirements then the act has several consequences.  Spread of STDS, for example.

 

Yeah, there are many negatives to this existence.  I believe the introduction of sin is the root of these negatives, but God also gave us these gifts to help us make it through each day.  Whenever I think about the gifts, I realize just how ridiculous the belief in evolution really is.  We would have to be extremely lucky for random events to give us such great things to enjoy.  Evolution may have determined the need for a food source, but not the need for taste buds. 


cj
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TWD39 wrote:Now since I was

TWD39 wrote:

Now since I was kind enough to play your hypothetical game , you can do the same for me.

 

Assume that God really exists.  Will you bow down and worship Him for eternal life, or give Him the finger and choose to burn in hell forever with Satan?

Answer the question, no dodging, no squirming.  I answered your crap question, and probably won't ever hear the end of it, so you can answer mine now.

I'm done with this forum for the weekend so don't expect any replies for awhile.  Give ya time to think that one over.

 

If I ever "meet my maker", I will do my best to kick the s.o.b. where it hurts - assuming he has any balls - and demand to go to hell.  At least Satan is honest about the pain he (supposedly) causes.  Unlike your deity who lies about some godly "plan."

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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TWD39 wrote: Is it love to

TWD39 wrote:
 

Is it love to not punish the wicked? 

number one, in theory, our justice system is based on rehabilitation, not punishment.

number two, in god's case (after all, it is god we're talking about in this thread, not humans), it absolutely is love.  why not just remove the compulsion in killers like the batman murderer to kill innocent people?  and while you're at it, raise those poor people from the dead.  i'm sorry, i don't accept the old "moves in mysterious ways" chestnut for why your god doesn't just prevent us from being in pain.  i say this as an actual father.  i don't spare my son pain and hardship because there's nothing i can do about pain and hardship in general, but if i were omnipotent, you better believe i'd make sure he never had anything but joy and happiness.

the god of the bible is a pretty shitty father.

and btw, my sarcasm was no more childish than you demanding the last word, like a whiney little kid who's mad because he's losing at checkers.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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TWD39 wrote:  Assume that

TWD39 wrote:

 

 

Assume that God really exists.  Will you bow down and worship Him for eternal life, or give Him the finger and choose to burn in hell forever with Satan?

 

 

 

 

   Does your God actually feel flattered by that kind of "worship" ?    If I found myself in that position I would only choose that which kept me out of Hell but in my heart I would burn with hatred toward anyone ( God or man ) who employs brute force to satisfy their ego.  Such a being deserves no worship, only contempt.

  There, now I answered your crap question.

 

  PS, you are one of the biggest babies  that's ever posted on this forum.   I don't know how you survive in the real world.

 

 

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TWD39 wrote:  Assume that

TWD39 wrote:

  

Assume that God really exists.  Will you bow down and worship Him for eternal life, or give Him the finger and choose to burn in hell forever with Satan?

Answer the question, no dodging, no squirming.  I answered your crap question, and probably won't ever hear the end of it, so you can answer mine now.

I'm done with this forum for the weekend so don't expect any replies for awhile.  Give ya time to think that one over.

 

I don't need time to think that one over, the answer would be yes. I would reject god.

Assuming it is the christian god and not the islamic one, or the hindu gods, or the pagan gods, or the millions of other religions.

But since you are a self confessed baby killer in the name of god, if god commanded you to do so, I really could give a flying fuck about your questions or discussions. Far as I am concerned, disappear over the weekend and don't come back. Better yet, why don't you pray about it ? Ask your kind and loving god if he really wants you to be on this forum and see if he send you a sign.

 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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TWD39 wrote:Ahh I was

TWD39 wrote:

Ahh I was preparing a nice response to your seemingly polite sincere original entrance, but now I see clearly that you are just the like the rest.  You claim to be more moral now trading the Christian faith of love, kindness and compassion for profanity and wasting time on internet forums tearing down Christians.   If you find that a better sense of morality, that is scary to me.  

Profanity? The only word I've seen Watcher use that could be described as profane is "damn". I think someone who is profane and wastes time on internet forums tearing down christians, muslims, atheists or even just random people every day of their lives, and even includes a healthy dose of real profanity is far more moral than the person who would stab a baby with a sword even once just because they believe god told them to.   

 

To answer your hypothetical directed at Prozac, I would never worship the god described in your bible even if I believed which is why I have been asking you to explain the morality of your god. How could you worship a being that tortures humans, has killed and ordered killed millions of innocents and is so vain considers lack of belief in him to be worthy of eternal punishment even of very good people? If everything in your bible is 100% true, how can you feel anything but disgust for such a being? 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: I

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I think someone who is profane and wastes time on internet forums tearing down christians, muslims, atheists or even just random people every day of their lives, and even includes a healthy dose of real profanity is far more moral than the person who would stab a baby with a sword even once just because they believe god told them to.   

 

To answer your hypothetical directed at Prozac, I would never worship the god described in your bible even if I believed which is why I have been asking you to explain the morality of your god. How could you worship a being that tortures humans, has killed and ordered killed millions of innocents and is so vain considers lack of belief in him to be worthy of eternal punishment even of very good people? If everything in your bible is 100% true, how can you feel anything but disgust for such a being? 

You hit the nail on the head Beyond. Profanity is unaccepatble, killing children is not.

Watcher presented a counter-argument and TWD fell back on his good old "victim" excuse. "I am not answering you because you are picking on me"

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Good Luck With That

Good Luck With That

TWD39 wrote:

 

I will gladly leave as long as I get the last word in.  Stop replying and I'm outta here. 

  

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Good Luck With That

TWD39 wrote:

 

I will gladly leave as long as I get the last word in.  Stop replying and I'm outta here. 

  

 

Yes TWD39, please leave. You are a sad excuse for a human being.

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Hey, Do yourself a favor and get off the 'hot seat' .. ..

 I.)  No! You cannot get the last word in . . .

ThunderJones wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Good Luck With That

TWD39 wrote:

 

I will gladly leave as long as I get the last word in.  Stop replying and I'm outta here. 

  

 

Yes TWD39, please leave. You are a sad excuse for a human being.

 

  Odd yesterday I thought you might be the type to say this. In a word, No! You cannot get the last word in. Why ? Due to the fact, someone can always come back a number of days later (or even weeks later) and tack on whatever they choose. No you cannot have the last word.  Dont leave in a huff; but you cannot get the last word in, sorry that is a fact of life. Nobody is going to stop replying, they will just come back a few weeks later and tack on to this thread. I'm sorry but No.

 

 


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TWD39 wrote: I will gladly

TWD39 wrote:

 

I will gladly leave as long as I get the last word in.  Stop replying and I'm outta here. 

  

Since when does getting the last word in PROVE jack-shit ?

But, I can accurately predict what your last word will be : You will "claim" that you came here to have a meaningful discussion. Then you will whine about such a discussion not being possible due to the fact that we are all such negative people, then you will threaten us with eternal damnation, call us close-minded and ignorant, you will bitch and complain about mockery and that will be the gist of the last word that you want to get in.

Am I pretty much summing it up for you ?

Well too bad, one way or the other. Keep posting bullshit and keep getting responded to.

There was another thread on here called : It Works for Me, by someone calling themselves Fonzie. It went on for for a few years. So, if you have got a few more years, so do we.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster wrote:Well

harleysportster wrote:

Well too bad, one way or the other. Keep posting bullshit and keep getting responded to.

There was another thread on here called : It Works for Me, by someone calling themselves Fonzie. It went on for for a few years. So, if you have got a few more years, so do we.

 

     I know you were being dead-on serious but I got a chuckle out of that. 

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I've made it something of a

I've made it something of a contest to get in the last word against all theists, because I know nothing annoys them more.

If some atheists are being morons for an extended period, I'll merely ignore their stupidity after awhile. Continuing the discussion has no purpose.

But not with theists. They almost always have to get in the last word. Doesn't tend to happen on this site though. A number of us will always be here to show how stupid your last words were.

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ex-minister
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TWD39 wrote:harleysportster

TWD39 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

 

Typical atheist gangbang tactic.  Bury me with dozens of questions with multiple people attacking me and then gloating because I don't immediately reply to every question.   At least be honest and admit that the playing field is a bit unbalanced.  Oh wait, you're an atheist, I shouldn't expect honesty and fairness. 

 

How about you go to a Christian forum and field questions from a dozen or more Bible believing Christians?  Let's see how fast you run for the hills.

 

I have been on several christian forums. They usually do just like you, dodge questions, throw around horseshit verses, and CLAIM to win the argument when they can not hold their own.

I don't usually generalize people, but that seems to be a very common trait among christians.

But, since you don't mind bracketing Atheists into all the same category, then you should be able to take it as well as dish it out. Christians are two-faced, self righteous, hypocrites and ignorant. ALL OF THEM.

Is that true or false ? False of course, but if your gonna throw out those types of generalities, then I'll be happy to return the favor. Now post some more bullshit and we can keep going.

 

I would gladly drop my generalities if I could just meet one atheist who came across nice and friendly.  Someone who can politely agree to disagree, have a difference of opinion without foaming at the mouth and spewing profantiy.   I have not, and certainly not on this forum.

Please review my comments and show me where I have behaved so.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


ex-minister
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TWD

TWD39 wrote:
Typical atheist gangbang tactic. Bury me with dozens of questions with multiple people attacking me and then gloating because I don't immediately reply to every question. At least be honest and admit that the playing field is a bit unbalanced. Oh wait, you're an atheist, I shouldn't expect honesty and fairness.

How about you go to a Christian forum and field questions from a dozen or more Bible believing Christians? Let's see how fast you run for the hills.

I have gone to various Christian forums and you find they can quickly turn on you if you don't agree. The gangbang you say you feel here is not different there. Humans are humans. I had one long debate on how the bible prophecies only are meaningful to believers. They don't stand up to anyone else. Nearly everyone of them, save a few decent people, said they were no longer could do talk to me and they were going to shake the dust off their shoes. I am sure you get the last reference. It basically said "you can go to hell". That was the Christian Post.

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


ex-minister
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TWD

PROPHECY FULFILLED

Further up this thread I showed how your lifted text from Isaiah 66 is not about the establishment of Israel in 1948. Too many other things in that chapter just don't fit. Context is always important.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/32430?page=2#comment-384300

But quote mining is not without precedence. The author of the book of Matthew was notorious for that. It was a good thing he was writing to mostly an illiterate group of believers. One illustration is regards to Jesus as a child going to Egypt.

Matthew 2:13-15 wrote:
When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

This is a quote from the prophet Hosea. According to Matthew, Hosea was specifically referring to Jesus and a fulfilled prophecy. Lets get some context now from the OT book Hosea.

Hosea 11:1-2 wrote:
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.

Does this mean when Jesus was in Egypt he burned incense to a false god and ignored Jehovah? No that wouldn't fit with Jesus being sinless. So how is it Matthew so freely lifted a few words out of context that has nothing to do with Jesus and apply it to him, calling it boldly a fulfilled prophecy. It was this kind of stuff that really woke me up to "Hey, they are just lying to me. They are just making stuff up as they go.". There are numerous other things just like this in the Bible. So please take care in simply quoting texts. It may satisfy the believer, but not those who have study the bible in depth.

IN DEFENSE OF A KIND GOD

How is it that this God, who also was Jesus, in Old Testament times ask his believers, his followers, to commit genocide. This all powerful being who could and did annihilate pockets of humans (Sodom/Gemorrorah) and nearly all of humanity (the flood) ask his children to put them in such an awful position to take the lives of others? I read you don't want to imagine yourself in their shoes, you say God would not ask such a thing today. But why not? There are obviously some who disagree, such as Christians who have killed abortion doctors. It is a big story to swallow. I cannot see Jehovah nor Jesus as particularly loving. He seems arbitrary and blood thirsty. In time I couldn't deal with this cognitive dissonance. I became tired of trying to convince myself that the bible was nothing more than man-made. Reading the Bible with that in mind simplified the whole process. Why would God tell his people to kill everyone in a city except those women who haven't slept with another man? Doesn't that sound more like what men would say?

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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GIVE THEM 14-15 Hrs and they'd make you feel two inches tall:

ex-minister wrote:

TWD39 wrote:
I shouldn't expect honesty and fairness.

How about you go to a Christian forum and field questions from a dozen or more Bible believing Christians? Let's see how fast you run for the hills.

I have gone to various Christian forums and you find they can quickly turn on you if you don't agree. The gangbang you say you feel here is not different there. Humans are humans. I had one long debate on how the bible prophecies only are meaningful to believers. They don't stand up to anyone else. Nearly everyone of them, save a few decent people, said they were no longer could do talk to me and they were going to shake the dust off their shoes. I am sure you get the last reference. It basically said "you can go to hell". That was the Christian Post.

 

   The way you presented yourself, Give your fellow believers about 14-15 hrs of your time and they would make you feel two inches tall.

 

-

-

 


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TWD39 wrote: Now since I was

TWD39 wrote:

Now since I was kind enough to play your hypothetical game , you can do the same for me.

 

Assume that God really exists.  Will you bow down and worship Him for eternal life, or give Him the finger and choose to burn in hell forever with Satan?

Answer the question, no dodging, no squirming.  I answered your crap question, and probably won't ever hear the end of it, so you can answer mine now.

I'm done with this forum for the weekend so don't expect any replies for awhile.  Give ya time to think that one over.

 

 


It would depend on how apologetic he was

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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ex-minister wrote:IN DEFENSE

ex-minister wrote:

IN DEFENSE OF A KIND GOD

How is it that this God, who also was Jesus, in Old Testament times ask his believers, his followers, to commit genocide. This all powerful being who could and did annihilate pockets of humans (Sodom/Gemorrorah) and nearly all of humanity (the flood) ask his children to put them in such an awful position to take the lives of others? I read you don't want to imagine yourself in their shoes, you say God would not ask such a thing today. But why not? There are obviously some who disagree, such as Christians who have killed abortion doctors. It is a big story to swallow. I cannot see Jehovah nor Jesus as particularly loving. He seems arbitrary and blood thirsty. In time I couldn't deal with this cognitive dissonance. I became tired of trying to convince myself that the bible was nothing more than man-made. Reading the Bible with that in mind simplified the whole process. Why would God tell his people to kill everyone in a city except those women who haven't slept with another man? Doesn't that sound more like what men would say?

I like this post.  I don't normally dwell on the bible's accuracy because I don't dwell on works of fiction's accuracy normally.  I can rate the bible on how good a story it is, much like you would a novel or comic book.  I do like what you wrote there, it shows that you have a certain amount of emotion invested as well as certain amount of energy.  I lack that, but I can relate with the passion. 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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ThunderJones

ThunderJones wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Good Luck With That

TWD39 wrote:

 

I will gladly leave as long as I get the last word in.  Stop replying and I'm outta here. 

  

 

Yes TWD39, please leave. You are a sad excuse for a human being.

 

Ahhh how nice of you to post ugly comments when I'm not around to defend myself.  Typical example of atheistic immorality.  Offer friendship to ones who agree with you.  Spit in the face of those who don't.    I can't think of many more ugly comments than to say that someone is a sad excuse for a human being.  If people would follow Christ's example of treating others with kindness and friendship, we probably wouldn't see such horrific acts like the Colorado massacre. 

 

 


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Beyond Saving wrote:TWD39

Beyond Saving wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

Ahh I was preparing a nice response to your seemingly polite sincere original entrance, but now I see clearly that you are just the like the rest.  You claim to be more moral now trading the Christian faith of love, kindness and compassion for profanity and wasting time on internet forums tearing down Christians.   If you find that a better sense of morality, that is scary to me.  

Profanity? The only word I've seen Watcher use that could be described as profane is "damn". I think someone who is profane and wastes time on internet forums tearing down christians, muslims, atheists or even just random people every day of their lives, and even includes a healthy dose of real profanity is far more moral than the person who would stab a baby with a sword even once just because they believe god told them to.   

 

To answer your hypothetical directed at Prozac, I would never worship the god described in your bible even if I believed which is why I have been asking you to explain the morality of your god. How could you worship a being that tortures humans, has killed and ordered killed millions of innocents and is so vain considers lack of belief in him to be worthy of eternal punishment even of very good people? If everything in your bible is 100% true, how can you feel anything but disgust for such a being? 

 

So basically you are being anti-semitic since the order to kill children was directed at the Hebrews only.  Since I am not Hebrew, and did not live in the OT times, I can be quite assured that my heavenly Father would never ask me to commit such an act.   It would rip apart the foundation of Christianity established in the NT by the new convenant.  I can also be assured that as a Christian, I won't be required to sacrifice animals to earn my way to heaven either.

 

But thank you for proving that you are a God hater.  You berate God for allowing evil to exist on this earth, and at the same time, you berate God for judging and punishing sin.  I call that being a hypocrite.   I see a God that has no desire for anyone to perish, and loved mankind so much that He took on physical form, endured physical pain and torture in order to create a way for us to enter heaven as sinless beings.  I see a God who can bring endless joy and peace.  The greatest sinful pleasures of this existance can only bring temporary happiness at best.  Some of the most miserable people on this planet are the super wealthy who have everything.


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cj wrote:TWD39 wrote:Now

cj wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

Now since I was kind enough to play your hypothetical game , you can do the same for me.

 

Assume that God really exists.  Will you bow down and worship Him for eternal life, or give Him the finger and choose to burn in hell forever with Satan?

Answer the question, no dodging, no squirming.  I answered your crap question, and probably won't ever hear the end of it, so you can answer mine now.

I'm done with this forum for the weekend so don't expect any replies for awhile.  Give ya time to think that one over.

 

If I ever "meet my maker", I will do my best to kick the s.o.b. where it hurts - assuming he has any balls - and demand to go to hell.  At least Satan is honest about the pain he (supposedly) causes.  Unlike your deity who lies about some godly "plan."

 

 

So you are willing to suffer an eternity being burned alive in darkness and complete isolation simply out of principle?  I wouldn't want to stay 10 seconds in such a place.  


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TWD39 wrote:So you are

TWD39 wrote:

So you are willing to suffer an eternity being burned alive in darkness and complete isolation simply out of principle?  I wouldn't want to stay 10 seconds in such a place.  

Is the alternative spending an eternity with people like you?


 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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iwbiek wrote:TWD39

iwbiek wrote:

TWD39 wrote:
 

Is it love to not punish the wicked? 

number one, in theory, our justice system is based on rehabilitation, not punishment.

number two, in god's case (after all, it is god we're talking about in this thread, not humans), it absolutely is love.  why not just remove the compulsion in killers like the batman murderer to kill innocent people?  and while you're at it, raise those poor people from the dead.  i'm sorry, i don't accept the old "moves in mysterious ways" chestnut for why your god doesn't just prevent us from being in pain.  i say this as an actual father.  i don't spare my son pain and hardship because there's nothing i can do about pain and hardship in general, but if i were omnipotent, you better believe i'd make sure he never had anything but joy and happiness.

the god of the bible is a pretty shitty father.

and btw, my sarcasm was no more childish than you demanding the last word, like a whiney little kid who's mad because he's losing at checkers.

 

If our justice system is all about rehabilitation, why imprison people who cheated on their taxes?  Exactly what are you rehabiliting them from?  Lack of fear of the government?  And ex-cons especially sex-offenders are released with very little support to help them get back on their feet.  They often can't get hired anywhere and end up right back in prison.  But the Christian church offers them hope.  I saw a good friend, Tommy who had been in prison most of his life give up his dope and transform into a loving Christian with a good heart for helping people.  He never went back to prison either. 

 

As for number two,  you are asking God to just magically remove our sin nature.   It doesn't work that way.  There would be no reason for Christ to die on the cross if it was that easy.  For one thing, you are taking away free will.   As a father, would you mind control your son to never do anything wrong? That's about the equivalent of owning a robot.  The pain and hardship in this life is a result of sin and doing wrong.

 

As for demanding the last word, I'm just showing how childish you atheists are since you must ALWAYS get the last word in.  I have graciously bowed out of many discussions why the atheist keeps talking trash and gloating.  I am mature enough to agree to disagree so the topic can be ended, but not with your type.


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So just to be clear about

So just to be clear about this the options are either everlasting pain and darkness or you. Well, you certainly drive a hard bargain. I won't pretend like it's an easy decision. Tell me about being burned alive again.

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  ex-minister

 

 

ex-minister wrote:

PROPHECY FULFILLED

Further up this thread I showed how your lifted text from Isaiah 66 is not about the establishment of Israel in 1948. Too many other things in that chapter just don't fit. Context is always important.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/32430?page=2#comment-384300

But quote mining is not without precedence. The author of the book of Matthew was notorious for that. It was a good thing he was writing to mostly an illiterate group of believers. One illustration is regards to Jesus as a child going to Egypt.

Matthew 2:13-15 wrote:
When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

 

Context is very important, and also understanding cultural context, language,  and the context of the Bible's message as a whole.  As I mentioned earlier,  the Isaiah passage can also refer to great and sudden increase of Christianity, or spiritual children and Zion is the mother.  Either way, it's fullfilled prophecy, and there are plenty of other prophecies that foretell the regathering of the Jews as a nation.

 

ex-minister wrote:

 

This is a quote from the prophet Hosea. According to Matthew, Hosea was specifically referring to Jesus and a fulfilled prophecy. Lets get some context now from the OT book Hosea.

Hosea 11:1-2 wrote:
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.

Does this mean when Jesus was in Egypt he burned incense to a false god and ignored Jehovah? No that wouldn't fit with Jesus being sinless. So how is it Matthew so freely lifted a few words out of context that has nothing to do with Jesus and apply it to him, calling it boldly a fulfilled prophecy. It was this kind of stuff that really woke me up to "Hey, they are just lying to me. They are just making stuff up as they go.". There are numerous other things just like this in the Bible. So please take care in simply quoting texts. It may satisfy the believer, but not those who have study the bible in depth.

IN DEFENSE OF A KIND GOD

How is it that this God, who also was Jesus, in Old Testament times ask his believers, his followers, to commit genocide. This all powerful being who could and did annihilate pockets of humans (Sodom/Gemorrorah) and nearly all of humanity (the flood) ask his children to put them in such an awful position to take the lives of others? I read you don't want to imagine yourself in their shoes, you say God would not ask such a thing today. But why not? There are obviously some who disagree, such as Christians who have killed abortion doctors. It is a big story to swallow. I cannot see Jehovah nor Jesus as particularly loving. He seems arbitrary and blood thirsty. In time I couldn't deal with this cognitive dissonance. I became tired of trying to convince myself that the bible was nothing more than man-made. Reading the Bible with that in mind simplified the whole process. Why would God tell his people to kill everyone in a city except those women who haven't slept with another man? Doesn't that sound more like what men would say?

 

I can see where it would be problematic if you merely study the scriptures from a literal surface reading.  The comparison has been addressed by apologetics and there are solutions.  Of course, I know you will reject them immediately.

Hosea is clearly talking about Israel which has been referred to as a Son of God.  You can see this in Exodus 4:22-23 and Romans 9:26.  I don't think Matthew is talking about a direct literal fullfillment of Hosea either.  He is merely acknowledging the parrallels between Israel as the son of God and Jesus as the son of God.  Some of the parallels are:

 

 

1.  Israel experienced persecution under Pharaoh and Christ child experienced persecution at the hands of Herod

2.  The persecution under Pharaoh and the persecution under Herod involved the death of infant males

 

3.  Israel came out of bondage from Egypt and established itself as a free nation.  Christ came out of Egypt to establish freedom from the bondage of sin.

 

Matthew refers to Hosea as an analogy to establish Christ's purpose and identity.

 

Another solution involves a more literal approach.  If Israel had not been delivered out of Egypt, there would be no Davidic king, no prophets, no Scriptures, and no messiah. 

 

I don't think you've made a good case that Matthew is a fake and a fraud

 

 

 

 


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TWD39 wrote:ThunderJones

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Good Luck With That

TWD39 wrote:

 

I will gladly leave as long as I get the last word in.  Stop replying and I'm outta here. 

  

 

Yes TWD39, please leave. You are a sad excuse for a human being.

 

Ahhh how nice of you to post ugly comments when I'm not around to defend myself.  Typical example of atheistic immorality.  Offer friendship to ones who agree with you.  Spit in the face of those who don't.    I can't think of many more ugly comments than to say that someone is a sad excuse for a human being.  If people would follow Christ's example of treating others with kindness and friendship, we probably wouldn't see such horrific acts like the Colorado massacre. 

 

 

Well since I know that I would never commit genocide, infantcide, rape, or massacre innocents like you would do if God asked you to, I know I am more moral than you. Therefore your attempts to strawman my argument and guilt trip me have no effect.

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ThunderJones wrote: Well

ThunderJones wrote:

 

Well since I know that I would never commit genocide, infantcide, rape, or massacre innocents like you would do if God asked you to, I know I am more moral than you. Therefore your attempts to strawman my argument and guilt trip me have no effect.

 

And since I have clearly explained exactly why God would never ask Christians to commit such acts, your point is invalid and ignorant.   The hypothetical was the equivalent of asking how I would morally act with my new found powers of shooting lightning bolts from my fingertips.  It has no real world bearing. 


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TWD39 wrote:ThunderJones

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

 

Well since I know that I would never commit genocide, infantcide, rape, or massacre innocents like you would do if God asked you to, I know I am more moral than you. Therefore your attempts to strawman my argument and guilt trip me have no effect.

 

And since I have clearly explained exactly why God would never ask Christians to commit such acts, your point is invalid and ignorant.   The hypothetical was the equivalent of asking how I would morally act with my new found powers of shooting lightning bolts from my fingertips.  It has no real world bearing. 

And how do you know that your God would never ask you that? So now you know God's plans for you. Isn't that blasphemy or something? Other Christian sects disagree, how do you know you are right?

It is irrelevant, because the point is if God DID tell you to commit any crime, directly told you, you would do it right? No matter how much the crime seemed wrong to you.

Philosophy and morality often work in hypotheticals, to imply that hypotheticals are irrelevant and have no bearing is the real ignorance.

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TWD39 wrote:cj wrote:If I

TWD39 wrote:

cj wrote:

If I ever "meet my maker", I will do my best to kick the s.o.b. where it hurts - assuming he has any balls - and demand to go to hell.  At least Satan is honest about the pain he (supposedly) causes.  Unlike your deity who lies about some godly "plan."

So you are willing to suffer an eternity being burned alive in darkness and complete isolation simply out of principle?  I wouldn't want to stay 10 seconds in such a place.  

 

So you would rather spend eternity with a "kind and loving"  entity who allows 5 year old girls to be raped and strangled to satisfy some vague "plan"?  (North Carolina, November 2009, you can find the news articles online.)  No thanks.  I'd rather burn. 

And how can it be dark if people are on fire?  It takes oxygen for things to burn and when they burn, flames are created, and that is light. 

I don't believe the entire literal light vs dark anyway.  I used to watch a TV program about painting.  And the instructor/painter said, to make your painting seem really bright, make the shadows really dark.  It is the contrast that gives the impression of light.  If your painting was just white, it would seem as bright as the light in whatever place it was put.  If you make lots of contrast, it will seem bright no matter where it is placed.  So in order for heaven to seem bright and full of light, there must be very dark shadows.  In order for hell to be dark, there must be no flames and therefore, no burning.  Melting and darkness, perhaps.  But it doesn't sound very impressive - "Go to hell and melt!"

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Gauche wrote:TWD39 wrote:So

Gauche wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

So you are willing to suffer an eternity being burned alive in darkness and complete isolation simply out of principle?  I wouldn't want to stay 10 seconds in such a place.  

Is the alternative spending an eternity with people like you?

 

That is another issue for me.  John Calvin?  (Our Jean's inspiration.)  Tammy Faye Bakker?  Oral Roberts?  Ewwwww........

I'd rather be with Mark Twain in hell.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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cj wrote:TWD39 wrote:cj

cj wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

cj wrote:

If I ever "meet my maker", I will do my best to kick the s.o.b. where it hurts - assuming he has any balls - and demand to go to hell.  At least Satan is honest about the pain he (supposedly) causes.  Unlike your deity who lies about some godly "plan."

So you are willing to suffer an eternity being burned alive in darkness and complete isolation simply out of principle?  I wouldn't want to stay 10 seconds in such a place.  

 

So you would rather spend eternity with a "kind and loving"  entity who allows 5 year old girls to be raped and strangled to satisfy some vague "plan"?  (North Carolina, November 2009, you can find the news articles online.)  No thanks.  I'd rather burn. 

And how can it be dark if people are on fire?  It takes oxygen for things to burn and when they burn, flames are created, and that is light. 

I don't believe the entire literal light vs dark anyway.  I used to watch a TV program about painting.  And the instructor/painter said, to make your painting seem really bright, make the shadows really dark.  It is the contrast that gives the impression of light.  If your painting was just white, it would seem as bright as the light in whatever place it was put.  If you make lots of contrast, it will seem bright no matter where it is placed.  So in order for heaven to seem bright and full of light, there must be very dark shadows.  In order for hell to be dark, there must be no flames and therefore, no burning.  Melting and darkness, perhaps.  But it doesn't sound very impressive - "Go to hell and melt!"

 

 

 

Where does the Bible condone rape?  Deuteronomy 21:10-14 plainly commands that a man must marry a female captive if he desires sex.   Besides who made you God?  How come your idea of morality is any more right than an ancient culture?   Some cultures practice cannibalism.  It is a social norm for that culture.  Who are you to say that your morals are any more right than theirs?

 

You might be a little relieved that there may not be a literal hell.  I lean more towards Annihilationism which you will be judged for your sins and then destroyed from existance.  You can make a Biblical case for either one, but I wouldly gladly take eternal life over not existing anymore.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism


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ThunderJones wrote:TWD39

ThunderJones wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

 

Well since I know that I would never commit genocide, infantcide, rape, or massacre innocents like you would do if God asked you to, I know I am more moral than you. Therefore your attempts to strawman my argument and guilt trip me have no effect.

 

And since I have clearly explained exactly why God would never ask Christians to commit such acts, your point is invalid and ignorant.   The hypothetical was the equivalent of asking how I would morally act with my new found powers of shooting lightning bolts from my fingertips.  It has no real world bearing. 

And how do you know that your God would never ask you that? So now you know God's plans for you. Isn't that blasphemy or something? Other Christian sects disagree, how do you know you are right?

It is irrelevant, because the point is if God DID tell you to commit any crime, directly told you, you would do it right? No matter how much the crime seemed wrong to you.

Philosophy and morality often work in hypotheticals, to imply that hypotheticals are irrelevant and have no bearing is the real ignorance.

 

 

It's irrelevant because it's not going to happen.  At the very least, God would be a liar since it would totally go against the NT.  Then all bets are off.  I wouldn't have any reason to trust God then.


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TWD39 wrote:cj wrote:TWD39

TWD39 wrote:

cj wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

cj wrote:

If I ever "meet my maker", I will do my best to kick the s.o.b. where it hurts - assuming he has any balls - and demand to go to hell.  At least Satan is honest about the pain he (supposedly) causes.  Unlike your deity who lies about some godly "plan."

So you are willing to suffer an eternity being burned alive in darkness and complete isolation simply out of principle?  I wouldn't want to stay 10 seconds in such a place.  

So you would rather spend eternity with a "kind and loving"  entity who allows 5 year old girls to be raped and strangled to satisfy some vague "plan"?  (North Carolina, November 2009, you can find the news articles online.)  No thanks.  I'd rather burn. 

And how can it be dark if people are on fire?  It takes oxygen for things to burn and when they burn, flames are created, and that is light. 

I don't believe the entire literal light vs dark anyway.  I used to watch a TV program about painting.  And the instructor/painter said, to make your painting seem really bright, make the shadows really dark.  It is the contrast that gives the impression of light.  If your painting was just white, it would seem as bright as the light in whatever place it was put.  If you make lots of contrast, it will seem bright no matter where it is placed.  So in order for heaven to seem bright and full of light, there must be very dark shadows.  In order for hell to be dark, there must be no flames and therefore, no burning.  Melting and darkness, perhaps.  But it doesn't sound very impressive - "Go to hell and melt!"

Where does the Bible condone rape?  Deuteronomy 21:10-14 plainly commands that a man must marry a female captive if he desires sex.   Besides who made you God?  How come your idea of morality is any more right than an ancient culture?   Some cultures practice cannibalism.  It is a social norm for that culture.  Who are you to say that your morals are any more right than theirs?

You might be a little relieved that there may not be a literal hell.  I lean more towards Annihilationism which you will be judged for your sins and then destroyed from existance.  You can make a Biblical case for either one, but I wouldly gladly take eternal life over not existing anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism

 

I did not say the bible condoned rape - though it does.  Nowhere does the bible imply that the female captive has any say in the matter about her marriage or about having sex with the man who killed her family.  Sounds like rape to me.

I did say that god/s/dess allows rape and strangling of little girls.  We are back to Epicurus - if god/s/dess doesn't know about each little girl who is raped and strangled, then they aren't all knowing.  If they can't stop it, they aren't all powerful.  If they know and could stop it, but they don't, they sure aren't loving.  My morals say if I were to know and could stop the abuse of a child, I would do my best to stop the abuse.  If that is "better" morals, then so it is.

And I know all about cultural relativism and post-modernism.  If it is culturally okay to eat other people in some part of the world, that doesn't make it right for me.  My morals are my morals and what is right for me is right for me.  I would just as soon not live in a culture that condones or allows rape.  Our culture doesn't condone rape as the rapist and the mother (who sold her daughter to the rapist) have been on trial and have been sentenced.  Unfortunately, we have not figured out how to stop rape before it happens.  But god/s/dess did not stop it and s/he/it/they could have - if they were as all powerful as many people believe - and if they wanted to.  And it is obvious they don't want to.

I'd rather be annihilated than to spend one minute in the company of John Calvin.  Thank you very much.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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harleysportster wrote:TWD39

harleysportster wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

 

I will gladly leave as long as I get the last word in.  Stop replying and I'm outta here. 

  

Since when does getting the last word in PROVE jack-shit ?

But, I can accurately predict what your last word will be : You will "claim" that you came here to have a meaningful discussion. Then you will whine about such a discussion not being possible due to the fact that we are all such negative people, then you will threaten us with eternal damnation, call us close-minded and ignorant, you will bitch and complain about mockery and that will be the gist of the last word that you want to get in.

Am I pretty much summing it up for you ?

Well too bad, one way or the other. Keep posting bullshit and keep getting responded to.

There was another thread on here called : It Works for Me, by someone calling themselves Fonzie. It went on for for a few years. So, if you have got a few more years, so do we.

 

No, but I can accurately predict that your replies will be profane-laced nonsense. 


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TWD39 wrote:ThunderJones

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

 

Well since I know that I would never commit genocide, infantcide, rape, or massacre innocents like you would do if God asked you to, I know I am more moral than you. Therefore your attempts to strawman my argument and guilt trip me have no effect.

 

And since I have clearly explained exactly why God would never ask Christians to commit such acts, your point is invalid and ignorant.   The hypothetical was the equivalent of asking how I would morally act with my new found powers of shooting lightning bolts from my fingertips.  It has no real world bearing. 

And how do you know that your God would never ask you that? So now you know God's plans for you. Isn't that blasphemy or something? Other Christian sects disagree, how do you know you are right?

It is irrelevant, because the point is if God DID tell you to commit any crime, directly told you, you would do it right? No matter how much the crime seemed wrong to you.

Philosophy and morality often work in hypotheticals, to imply that hypotheticals are irrelevant and have no bearing is the real ignorance.

 

 

It's irrelevant because it's not going to happen.  At the very least, God would be a liar since it would totally go against the NT.  Then all bets are off.  I wouldn't have any reason to trust God then.

I thought God was omnibenevolent? Perfect? Epitome of love right?  The reason it won't happen is because imaginary things can't tell you to do anything.

It is a hypothetical, but the answer is important. If you are saying you would refuse God himself than you are directly opposing your own Bible. If you saying you would do it than you are a very sick person. Is there a logical fallacy here? Than please point it out? How is this different than when you said you would kill your own child because God told you to?

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TWD39 wrote:harleysportster

TWD39 wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

 

I will gladly leave as long as I get the last word in.  Stop replying and I'm outta here. 

  

Since when does getting the last word in PROVE jack-shit ?

But, I can accurately predict what your last word will be : You will "claim" that you came here to have a meaningful discussion. Then you will whine about such a discussion not being possible due to the fact that we are all such negative people, then you will threaten us with eternal damnation, call us close-minded and ignorant, you will bitch and complain about mockery and that will be the gist of the last word that you want to get in.

Am I pretty much summing it up for you ?

Well too bad, one way or the other. Keep posting bullshit and keep getting responded to.

There was another thread on here called : It Works for Me, by someone calling themselves Fonzie. It went on for for a few years. So, if you have got a few more years, so do we.

 

No, but I can accurately predict that your replies will be profane-laced nonsense. 

Oh poor me, people are disagreeing with my views!

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re:: Have you ever bothered to read the forums rules ?

 

 

TWD34 wrote:
.. will be profane-laced ..
       This is getting old. Look at the board's rules why dont you? Only in one other section of the board ARE THE RULES DIFFERENT. There are two sections, if you will, in regards to the rules. I'm talking about the rules. You are not in the section that you 'wish' you were. Perhaps it's time to move this or better start a new thread in the other section of the board as an alternative, K? 

 

 

 


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danatemporary wrote:  

danatemporary wrote:

 

 

TWD34 wrote:
.. will be profane-laced ..
       This is getting old. Look at the board's rules why dont you? Only in one other section of the board ARE THE RULES DIFFERENT. There are two sections, if you will, in regards to the rules. I'm talking about the rules. You are not in the section that you 'wish' you were. Perhaps it's time to move this or better start a new thread in the other section of the board as an alternative, K? 

 

 

 

 

I am merely calling it as I see it.  If you people were true intellectuals with open minds, you wouldn't use something like profanity to appear superior by nailing the point with a strong force.  Are you saying I'm breaking the rules now?


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TWD39 wrote:danatemporary

TWD39 wrote:

danatemporary wrote:

 

 

TWD34 wrote:
.. will be profane-laced ..
       This is getting old. Look at the board's rules why dont you? Only in one other section of the board ARE THE RULES DIFFERENT. There are two sections, if you will, in regards to the rules. I'm talking about the rules. You are not in the section that you 'wish' you were. Perhaps it's time to move this or better start a new thread in the other section of the board as an alternative, K? 

 

 

 

 

I am merely calling it as I see it.  If you people were true intellectuals with open minds, you wouldn't use something like profanity to appear superior by nailing the point with a strong force.  Are you saying I'm breaking the rules now?

look focus less on the swearing and more on actually providing evidence and proper arguments to the topic at hand, not just avoiding much of the problems people have pointed out with your OP and points you have brought up. Swearing isn't the issue, the issue is that you don't respond to the points that they make, just like above don't actually respond to what they are saying you are focusing on how it is stated. So what, i could say your whole point in this is fucking retarded because the bible points out that god is a fucking cocksucker, genocidal manic depressive and in many cases a fucking schizophrenic character. You will simply focus on the swearing and not on the points brought up. Focus on the points not on the swearing, unless of course you can't


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TWD39 wrote:danatemporary

TWD39 wrote:

danatemporary wrote:

 

 

TWD34 wrote:
.. will be profane-laced ..
       This is getting old. Look at the board's rules why dont you? Only in one other section of the board ARE THE RULES DIFFERENT. There are two sections, if you will, in regards to the rules. I'm talking about the rules. You are not in the section that you 'wish' you were. Perhaps it's time to move this or better start a new thread in the other section of the board as an alternative, K? 

 

 

 

 

I am merely calling it as I see it.  If you people were true intellectuals with open minds, you wouldn't use something like profanity to appear superior by nailing the point with a strong force.  Are you saying I'm breaking the rules now?

sigh.  no, she's saying there's a part of the board--a part actually frequented quite often--where no one, atheist or otherwise, is allowed to use profanity or ad homs, on pain of having their post deleted by a mod.  it's called "kill 'em with kindness," and the mods take the rules there seriously.

because dana is so goshdarned nice, she's suggesting you start a thread there if profanity bothers you.

no one is breaking any rules here.  there are almost no rules here, as long as you don't troll or spam.

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I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
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ThunderJones wrote: And how

ThunderJones wrote:

 

And how do you know that your God would never ask you that? So now you know God's plans for you. Isn't that blasphemy or something? Other Christian sects disagree, how do you know you are right?

It is irrelevant, because the point is if God DID tell you to commit any crime, directly told you, you would do it right? No matter how much the crime seemed wrong to you.

Philosophy and morality often work in hypotheticals, to imply that hypotheticals are irrelevant and have no bearing is the real ignorance.

 

How do you know your parents or childrens won't murder you when you sleep? I suppose it's in the realm of possibility because anything is, but there is absolutely no foundation to suggest that God would suddenly turn evil, and go against his own Word and commandments.  God has been consistent in His love and grace for humankind.   I have not seen one Christian whose life was not greatly improved by having a fellowship with Jesus Christ.

 

 

ThunderJones wrote:

I thought God was omnibenevolent? Perfect? Epitome of love right?  The reason it won't happen is because imaginary things can't tell you to do anything.

It is a hypothetical, but the answer is important. If you are saying you would refuse God himself than you are directly opposing your own Bible. If you saying you would do it than you are a very sick person. Is there a logical fallacy here? Than please point it out? How is this different than when you said you would kill your own child because God told you to?

 

You just admitted that it is a trap question.  There is no fallacy.  And I never said I would kill children.  I said it would only apply if I were Hebrew and living in the OT times.   Neither is true so it will never happen.  


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latincanuck wrote:TWD39

latincanuck wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

danatemporary wrote:

 

 

TWD34 wrote:
.. will be profane-laced ..
       This is getting old. Look at the board's rules why dont you? Only in one other section of the board ARE THE RULES DIFFERENT. There are two sections, if you will, in regards to the rules. I'm talking about the rules. You are not in the section that you 'wish' you were. Perhaps it's time to move this or better start a new thread in the other section of the board as an alternative, K? 

 

 

 

 

I am merely calling it as I see it.  If you people were true intellectuals with open minds, you wouldn't use something like profanity to appear superior by nailing the point with a strong force.  Are you saying I'm breaking the rules now?

look focus less on the swearing and more on actually providing evidence and proper arguments to the topic at hand, not just avoiding much of the problems people have pointed out with your OP and points you have brought up. Swearing isn't the issue, the issue is that you don't respond to the points that they make, just like above don't actually respond to what they are saying you are focusing on how it is stated. So what, i could say your whole point in this is fucking retarded because the bible points out that god is a fucking cocksucker, genocidal manic depressive and in many cases a fucking schizophrenic character. You will simply focus on the swearing and not on the points brought up. Focus on the points not on the swearing, unless of course you can't

 

I have done well to address many points in a last come serve fashion.   I simply do not have the time to answer every single reply, and I'm not going to waste time figuring out in history where I left off.  I stated I was gone for the weekend, and you peeps continued to bury me in insults and replies.  So stop bitching about me not answering points if you are going to do that.

If you think my arugments are invalid, fine, post a clear counter argument as to why.  Instead, you harp on about how I never make a single argument.  For example, no one has explained why my answer to the trap question that it only applies to ancient Hebrews doesn't work.  Instead, you rejurgitate the same thing.  It's like an atheist's greatest hits record playing with the needle stuck.

 

 


ex-minister
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TWD39 wrote:  ex-minister

TWD39 wrote:

 

 

ex-minister wrote:

PROPHECY FULFILLED

Further up this thread I showed how your lifted text from Isaiah 66 is not about the establishment of Israel in 1948. Too many other things in that chapter just don't fit. Context is always important.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/32430?page=2#comment-384300

But quote mining is not without precedence. The author of the book of Matthew was notorious for that. It was a good thing he was writing to mostly an illiterate group of believers. One illustration is regards to Jesus as a child going to Egypt.

Matthew 2:13-15 wrote:
When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

 

Context is very important, and also understanding cultural context, language,  and the context of the Bible's message as a whole.  As I mentioned earlier,  the Isaiah passage can also refer to great and sudden increase of Christianity, or spiritual children and Zion is the mother.  Either way, it's fullfilled prophecy, and there are plenty of other prophecies that foretell the regathering of the Jews as a nation.

 

ex-minister wrote:

 

This is a quote from the prophet Hosea. According to Matthew, Hosea was specifically referring to Jesus and a fulfilled prophecy. Lets get some context now from the OT book Hosea.

Hosea 11:1-2 wrote:
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.

Does this mean when Jesus was in Egypt he burned incense to a false god and ignored Jehovah? No that wouldn't fit with Jesus being sinless. So how is it Matthew so freely lifted a few words out of context that has nothing to do with Jesus and apply it to him, calling it boldly a fulfilled prophecy. It was this kind of stuff that really woke me up to "Hey, they are just lying to me. They are just making stuff up as they go.". There are numerous other things just like this in the Bible. So please take care in simply quoting texts. It may satisfy the believer, but not those who have study the bible in depth.

IN DEFENSE OF A KIND GOD

How is it that this God, who also was Jesus, in Old Testament times ask his believers, his followers, to commit genocide. This all powerful being who could and did annihilate pockets of humans (Sodom/Gemorrorah) and nearly all of humanity (the flood) ask his children to put them in such an awful position to take the lives of others? I read you don't want to imagine yourself in their shoes, you say God would not ask such a thing today. But why not? There are obviously some who disagree, such as Christians who have killed abortion doctors. It is a big story to swallow. I cannot see Jehovah nor Jesus as particularly loving. He seems arbitrary and blood thirsty. In time I couldn't deal with this cognitive dissonance. I became tired of trying to convince myself that the bible was nothing more than man-made. Reading the Bible with that in mind simplified the whole process. Why would God tell his people to kill everyone in a city except those women who haven't slept with another man? Doesn't that sound more like what men would say?

 

I can see where it would be problematic if you merely study the scriptures from a literal surface reading.  The comparison has been addressed by apologetics and there are solutions.  Of course, I know you will reject them immediately.

Hosea is clearly talking about Israel which has been referred to as a Son of God.  You can see this in Exodus 4:22-23 and Romans 9:26.  I don't think Matthew is talking about a direct literal fullfillment of Hosea either.  He is merely acknowledging the parrallels between Israel as the son of God and Jesus as the son of God.  Some of the parallels are:

 

 

1.  Israel experienced persecution under Pharaoh and Christ child experienced persecution at the hands of Herod

2.  The persecution under Pharaoh and the persecution under Herod involved the death of infant males

 

3.  Israel came out of bondage from Egypt and established itself as a free nation.  Christ came out of Egypt to establish freedom from the bondage of sin.

 

Matthew refers to Hosea as an analogy to establish Christ's purpose and identity.

 

Another solution involves a more literal approach.  If Israel had not been delivered out of Egypt, there would be no Davidic king, no prophets, no Scriptures, and no messiah. 

 

I don't think you've made a good case that Matthew is a fake and a fraud

 

 

 

 

This is just double talk. The words are very clear.

Quote:
And so for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet:“Out of Egypt I called my son.”

The agenda is more important than the truth.

If something doesn't fit you have to force it somehow to make it fit. This is my biggest concern about christianitu. That they just cannot let text say what they say. I do understand why you do this because I was a former minister. I did it too. But after awhile the more you study, you just cannot believe how many times you have to forced a square peg into a round hole. Perhaps someday that cognitive dissonance will rise to your conscience as it did with mine. I hope that for you anyway.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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TWD39 wrote:I stated I was

TWD39 wrote:

I stated I was gone for the weekend, and you peeps continued to bury me in insults and replies.  So stop bitching about me not answering points if you are going to do that.

 

this might surprise you, hoss, but most of us here have lives as well, and have to post when it's convenient, i.e., when we're on lunch break, when the baby is put down for the night and the wife is watching her chick flick, etc.  we don't have time to wait till you're good'n'ready,

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


ex-minister
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TWD36 wrote:How do you know

TWD36 wrote:
How do you know your parents or childrens won't murder you when you sleep? I suppose it's in the realm of possibility because anything is, but there is absolutely no foundation to suggest that God would suddenly turn evil, and go against his own Word and commandments.  God has been consistent in His love and grace for humankind.   I have not seen one Christian whose life was not greatly improved by having a fellowship with Jesus Christ.

You are not looking very hard and only see what you want to see.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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What is this all some kinda game to you ?

iwbiek wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

I stated I was gone for the weekend, and you peeps continued to bury me in insults and replies.  So stop bitching about me not answering points if you are going to do that.

 

this might surprise you, hoss, but most of us here have lives as well, and have to post when it's convenient, i.e., when we're on lunch break, when the baby is put down for the night and the wife is watching her chick flick, etc.  we don't have time to wait till you're good'n'ready,

  TWD39 -- Nobody can wait until you are good-n-ready. I can't believe it. This whole thread is tedious, your replies are tedium to the extreme. You either commit to this thread or kindly leave. This is from the one that is usually very nice to visiting Theists. And no you cannot have the last word, no matter how competitive you are


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ex-minister wrote:TWD39

ex-minister wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

 

 

ex-minister wrote:

PROPHECY FULFILLED

Further up this thread I showed how your lifted text from Isaiah 66 is not about the establishment of Israel in 1948. Too many other things in that chapter just don't fit. Context is always important.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/32430?page=2#comment-384300

But quote mining is not without precedence. The author of the book of Matthew was notorious for that. It was a good thing he was writing to mostly an illiterate group of believers. One illustration is regards to Jesus as a child going to Egypt.

Matthew 2:13-15 wrote:
When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

 

Context is very important, and also understanding cultural context, language,  and the context of the Bible's message as a whole.  As I mentioned earlier,  the Isaiah passage can also refer to great and sudden increase of Christianity, or spiritual children and Zion is the mother.  Either way, it's fullfilled prophecy, and there are plenty of other prophecies that foretell the regathering of the Jews as a nation.

 

ex-minister wrote:

 

This is a quote from the prophet Hosea. According to Matthew, Hosea was specifically referring to Jesus and a fulfilled prophecy. Lets get some context now from the OT book Hosea.

Hosea 11:1-2 wrote:
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.

Does this mean when Jesus was in Egypt he burned incense to a false god and ignored Jehovah? No that wouldn't fit with Jesus being sinless. So how is it Matthew so freely lifted a few words out of context that has nothing to do with Jesus and apply it to him, calling it boldly a fulfilled prophecy. It was this kind of stuff that really woke me up to "Hey, they are just lying to me. They are just making stuff up as they go.". There are numerous other things just like this in the Bible. So please take care in simply quoting texts. It may satisfy the believer, but not those who have study the bible in depth.

IN DEFENSE OF A KIND GOD

How is it that this God, who also was Jesus, in Old Testament times ask his believers, his followers, to commit genocide. This all powerful being who could and did annihilate pockets of humans (Sodom/Gemorrorah) and nearly all of humanity (the flood) ask his children to put them in such an awful position to take the lives of others? I read you don't want to imagine yourself in their shoes, you say God would not ask such a thing today. But why not? There are obviously some who disagree, such as Christians who have killed abortion doctors. It is a big story to swallow. I cannot see Jehovah nor Jesus as particularly loving. He seems arbitrary and blood thirsty. In time I couldn't deal with this cognitive dissonance. I became tired of trying to convince myself that the bible was nothing more than man-made. Reading the Bible with that in mind simplified the whole process. Why would God tell his people to kill everyone in a city except those women who haven't slept with another man? Doesn't that sound more like what men would say?

 

I can see where it would be problematic if you merely study the scriptures from a literal surface reading.  The comparison has been addressed by apologetics and there are solutions.  Of course, I know you will reject them immediately.

Hosea is clearly talking about Israel which has been referred to as a Son of God.  You can see this in Exodus 4:22-23 and Romans 9:26.  I don't think Matthew is talking about a direct literal fullfillment of Hosea either.  He is merely acknowledging the parrallels between Israel as the son of God and Jesus as the son of God.  Some of the parallels are:

 

 

1.  Israel experienced persecution under Pharaoh and Christ child experienced persecution at the hands of Herod

2.  The persecution under Pharaoh and the persecution under Herod involved the death of infant males

 

3.  Israel came out of bondage from Egypt and established itself as a free nation.  Christ came out of Egypt to establish freedom from the bondage of sin.

 

Matthew refers to Hosea as an analogy to establish Christ's purpose and identity.

 

Another solution involves a more literal approach.  If Israel had not been delivered out of Egypt, there would be no Davidic king, no prophets, no Scriptures, and no messiah. 

 

I don't think you've made a good case that Matthew is a fake and a fraud

 

 

 

 

This is just double talk. The words are very clear.

Quote:
And so for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet:“Out of Egypt I called my son.”

The agenda is more important than the truth.

If something doesn't fit you have to force it somehow to make it fit. This is my biggest concern about christianitu. That they just cannot let text say what they say. I do understand why you do this because I was a former minister. I did it too. But after awhile the more you study, you just cannot believe how many times you have to forced a square peg into a round hole. Perhaps someday that cognitive dissonance will rise to your conscience as it did with mine. I hope that for you anyway.

 

Ok, so you completely ignore the overall context which I demonstrated in other verses which refer to son of God as Israel.  In all your studies, did you ever consider that certain Hebrew words can have more than one meaning?  This is very important especially when you have discussions on topics like hell.

The ironic thing is from my perspective, atheists are the ones fitting the square pegs into the round holes.   You keep looking for the smoking gun,  ah hah that will discredit the Bible.  Most of the claimed contradictions are conceived through an extreme legalistic modern day literal English approach.  Context and language are not considered.   Or what about motive?  When you started questioning Matthew, did you ask why would this guy promote a verse in Hosea as fullfilled by Jesus when it easily doesn't fit?   It would be pointless and not convince anyone.

 

But in fairness, the Bible really isn't meant to be fully understand by non-believers.  It is a spiritual book.  I seriously doubt a non-believer reading John 1:1 for the first time is going to understand what it truly means.


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TWD39 wrote:ThunderJones

TWD39 wrote:

ThunderJones wrote:

 

And how do you know that your God would never ask you that? So now you know God's plans for you. Isn't that blasphemy or something? Other Christian sects disagree, how do you know you are right?

It is irrelevant, because the point is if God DID tell you to commit any crime, directly told you, you would do it right? No matter how much the crime seemed wrong to you.

Philosophy and morality often work in hypotheticals, to imply that hypotheticals are irrelevant and have no bearing is the real ignorance.

 

How do you know your parents or childrens won't murder you when you sleep? I suppose it's in the realm of possibility because anything is, but there is absolutely no foundation to suggest that God would suddenly turn evil, and go against his own Word and commandments.  God has been consistent in His love and grace for humankind.   I have not seen one Christian whose life was not greatly improved by having a fellowship with Jesus Christ.

 

I don't know for a fact, but given the thousands of examples (nights) where they haven't and given the information I know about them I find it so unlikely that it is not even worth considering.  I know plenty about my parents, and have mountains of evidence towards proving their goodwill, you cannot say the same for your God.

Consistent? What about when he killed everyone except a small family? What about when he committed massacres and murders based on entrapment? (Forcing someone to commit a crime and then punishing them).

Plenty of former Christians here can tell you that their life was NOT, in fact, improved by having "a fellowship with Jesus Christ". I, for one, can tell you that my morality and good life has come from myself and my wonderful family. No God/Jesus nessecary.

TWD39 wrote:

 

ThunderJones wrote:

I thought God was omnibenevolent? Perfect? Epitome of love right?  The reason it won't happen is because imaginary things can't tell you to do anything.

It is a hypothetical, but the answer is important. If you are saying you would refuse God himself than you are directly opposing your own Bible. If you saying you would do it than you are a very sick person. Is there a logical fallacy here? Than please point it out? How is this different than when you said you would kill your own child because God told you to?

 

You just admitted that it is a trap question.  There is no fallacy.  And I never said I would kill children.  I said it would only apply if I were Hebrew and living in the OT times.   Neither is true so it will never happen.  

It is not a trap question. There is a third, reasonable, option. Realizing that your God is immoral and sadistic, therefore worthy of no worship.

Secularist, Atheist, Skeptic, Freethinker


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.. the bible isnt really meant to be understood . .

TWD39 wrote:

 

But in fairness, the Bible really isn't meant to be fully understand by non-believers.  It is a spiritual book.  I seriously doubt a non-believer reading John 1:1 for the first time is going to understand what it truly means.

  A verse from a passage in John.  Yes the eternal 'logos', what of it ???
 
    


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danatemporary wrote:iwbiek

danatemporary wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

TWD39 wrote:

I stated I was gone for the weekend, and you peeps continued to bury me in insults and replies.  So stop bitching about me not answering points if you are going to do that.

 

this might surprise you, hoss, but most of us here have lives as well, and have to post when it's convenient, i.e., when we're on lunch break, when the baby is put down for the night and the wife is watching her chick flick, etc.  we don't have time to wait till you're good'n'ready,

  TWD39 -- Nobody can wait until you are good-n-ready. I can't believe it. This whole thread is tedious, your replies are tedium to the extreme. You either commit to this thread or kindly leave. This is from the one that is usually very nice to visiting Theists. And no you cannot have the last word, no matter how competitive you are

 

If I find something tedious, I exercise, oh gosh, what do you call  it, oh yea, free will (Thanks God!) to not read the comments and move on.  You are welcome to do the same.  I don't care whenever someone responds, but when I made it clear that I would not be around yet I'm berated for not responding immediately;  that is total crap and you know it.

The last word bit was a joke anyways.  And you have been rude to me from the get go so I find it hard to believe you are nice to theists.